It looks like Trump is setting the mood for the 1T.

[Galen]

(11-21-2016, 06:53 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 05:54 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 01:55 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 08:14 AM)Mikebert Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:21 AM)Galen Wrote: Murray Rothbard once pointed out that the Progressive Era, with its idea of a technocratic elite, had not ended in the eighties and I am inclined to agree with this assessment.   The last fourth turning spelled the end of classical liberalism and so it seems likely that this one spell the final end of the Progressive Era.  Judging from current trends it seems likely that the upcoming first turning will be defined by nationalism but on a much smaller scale than was known in the twentieth century.  If so then the nation-state as we know it is on the decline on an even longer time scale.  Probably about two centuries give or take a half-century.

This is an example of sloppy thinking. The Progressive Era end in 1920.  This brand of Progressivism was spearheaded by Republicans.  The Republican party then was a pro-business, free market party then just like now.  They were also the Blue party.

First I've heard that Wilson  was a Republican.

He was.  I suggest that you do a little research into the Progressives and then look at the twentieth century.  I expect you will agree that Rothbard was right.

I'm not disagreeing with Rothbard, but Wilson was a Democrat through his entire political career, as governor as well as as President.  Indeed his accession to the Presidency occurred in an election where the Republicans rejected the progressive Theodore Roosevelt.

Made a mistake there you are right Wilson was a Democrat.  More like the Bull Moose party, as it was known then, split the Republican vote.  Interestingly, the Progressive Party was funded in large by J.P. Morgan.  You might want to think about that.  It has considerable relevance with the crony capitalism of the current era.

[Odin]

(11-20-2016, 07:49 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 12:32 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 11:26 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- thank gawd we dodged that bullet. Not that l care for the Donald. Both of them suck in their own ways, which is why half the electorate didn't even bother to vote

Are you fucking serious? Clinton may have been a poor candidate, but she is 1000 times better then the Talking Yam. 

-- the Talking Yam (luvvit! rofl) is against the TPP- infact it's already dead- wants to renegotiate NAFTA, is not picking a fight with Russia  & wants to scale back our involvement in the Middle East. He wants to bring outsourced jobs back home. How successful he'll be, well we'll find out within the next 4 yrs

For me the biggest thing is no war with Russia. That bitch & her bellicose talk was scareing the shit outta me. Besides a vote for her condones election theft & fraud. l have scruples. Not many but l do have a few. Bitch has none

You have it backwards, Russia is trying to fuck with us by manipulating our elections, that is unacceptable.

[2Legit2Quit]

(11-21-2016, 07:59 AM)Odin Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 07:49 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 12:32 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 11:26 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- thank gawd we dodged that bullet. Not that l care for the Donald. Both of them suck in their own ways, which is why half the electorate didn't even bother to vote

Are you fucking serious? Clinton may have been a poor candidate, but she is 1000 times better then the Talking Yam. 

-- the Talking Yam (luvvit! rofl) is against the TPP- infact it's already dead- wants to renegotiate NAFTA, is not picking a fight with Russia  & wants to scale back our involvement in the Middle East. He wants to bring outsourced jobs back home. How successful he'll be, well we'll find out within the next 4 yrs

For me the biggest thing is no war with Russia. That bitch & her bellicose talk was scareing the shit outta me. Besides a vote for her condones election theft & fraud. l have scruples. Not many but l do have a few. Bitch has none

You have it backwards, Russia is trying to fuck with us by manipulating our elections, that is unacceptable.

I'm surprised to see this misinformation being trotted out after the election. 

In fact, the director of the NSA (the guy that represented "17" intelligence agencies) just said that was hogwash. They have no idea where Wikileaks got the emails from. 

China and Russia certainly do have all of Hillary's emails, including the 33k that she withheld from discovery and had Platte River delete with Bleachbit. But they'd prefer to use those as blackmail. Wikileaks only had John Podesta's emails. 

Ill withhold judgement on who is better or worse between Trump/Clinton, but neither was supported by the electorate. They are the two least popular candidates in recent history. 

The fact is, Trump was a terrible candidate, but he did win, and Clinton was a terrible candidate. IMO the timeline holds either way: increased division in the populace.

[Marypoza]

This is what we need to do to start the regeneracy-

http://www.newslogue.com/debate/120

[Marypoza]

(11-21-2016, 07:59 AM)Odin Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 07:49 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 12:32 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 11:26 AM)Marypoza Wrote: -- thank gawd we dodged that bullet. Not that l care for the Donald. Both of them suck in their own ways, which is why half the electorate didn't even bother to vote

Are you fucking serious? Clinton may have been a poor candidate, but she is 1000 times better then the Talking Yam. 

-- the Talking Yam (luvvit! rofl) is against the TPP- infact it's already dead- wants to renegotiate NAFTA, is not picking a fight with Russia  & wants to scale back our involvement in the Middle East. He wants to bring outsourced jobs back home. How successful he'll be, well we'll find out within the next 4 yrs

For me the biggest thing is no war with Russia. That bitch & her bellicose talk was scareing the shit outta me. Besides a vote for her condones election theft & fraud. l have scruples. Not many but l do have a few. Bitch has none

You have it backwards, Russia is trying to fuck with us by manipulating our elections, that is unacceptable.

-- source plz? Oh yeah the lying cheating hildabitch  actually, the DNC fucked with us by manipulating- hell let's call it what it is- rigging our elections.  & you're right, that is simply unacceptable. Which is why voting Dem was simply not an option this yr. This from somebody who has been voting Dem for far longer than you've been around. But not this yr

[Eric the Green]

You were deceived. I don't know how many Bernie "bots" suffered from this, or whether it swung the election. Probably not. I can't disparage a vote for Jill Stein too much, especially in a non-swing state, since I've done it myself, and it's understandable. But basing such a vote on deception, is less understandable.

I found voting for Hillary Clinton not only the best option, but finally the only one. Given Jill Stein's dedicated and deceptive campaign against Hillary, a vote for Stein was not a vote against Trump. It was a vote against Hillary. Only a vote for Hillary was also a vote against Trump, and a vote against Trump was the only moral option this year. So I was proud to vote for the compassionate professional against the amateur deceiver, and to add my small amount to the popular vote victory that sent a message that we do not approve of this election.

And I had voted Green since and including 1996.

[Eric the Green]

(11-21-2016, 01:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: This is what we need to do to start the regeneracy-

http://www.newslogue.com/debate/120

It will not be effective until it puts away all resentment over Bernie's loss, and all the lies about Hillary and Trump. Of which I saw considerable in that article. Division on the left only hurts the left.

The regeneracy begins now with the movement in the streets and in the organizations now opposing Trump.

Certainly Bernie is right now the best leader of the movement, and if he stays healthy enough he could run and win in 2020. Such is not my prediction though; I have none.

[2Legit2Quit]

(11-21-2016, 02:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 01:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: This is what we need to do to start the regeneracy-

http://www.newslogue.com/debate/120

It will not be effective until it puts away all resentment over Bernie's loss, and all the lies about Hillary and Trump. Of which I saw considerable in that article. Division on the left only hurts the left.

The regeneracy begins now with the movement in the streets and in the organizations now opposing Trump.

Certainly Bernie is right now the best leader of the movement, and if he stays healthy enough he could run and win in 2020. Such is not my prediction though; I have none.

The regenerency, imo, will be marked by a movement drawing from left and right and center that drops identity politics and the culture wars. 

Tump is fanning the flames of the last saeculum's culture wars one more time. 

But I agree that an anti trump movement could be the regeneracy

[pbrower2a]

(11-21-2016, 02:42 PM)2Legit2Quit Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 02:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 01:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: This is what we need to do to start the regeneracy-

http://www.newslogue.com/debate/120

It will not be effective until it puts away all resentment over Bernie's loss, and all the lies about Hillary and Trump. Of which I saw considerable in that article. Division on the left only hurts the left.

The regeneracy begins now with the movement in the streets and in the organizations now opposing Trump.

Certainly Bernie is right now the best leader of the movement, and if he stays healthy enough he could run and win in 2020. Such is not my prediction though; I have none.

The regenerency, imo, will be marked by a movement drawing from left and right and center that drops identity politics and the culture wars. 

Trump is fanning the flames of the last saeculum's culture wars one more time. 

But I agree that an anti trump movement could be the regeneracy

Much so. The culture wars of the Right are not going to create any happiness except for their devotees.

If the Republicans cheat in 2020 to maintain power, then Americans might not be so patient. I predict much civil unrest in the next four years over the extremism that the Republican party has adopted. Donald Trump has insulted far too many people to have much room for any swing of votes from 2016.

That's before I predict any economic, military, or diplomatic disasters, let alone personal scandals, for the man least fit to be president since Andrew Johnson.

[Marypoza]

(11-21-2016, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You were deceived. I don't know how many Bernie "bots" suffered from this, or whether it swung the election. Probably not. I can't disparage a vote for Jill Stein too much, especially in a non-swing state, since I've done it myself, and it's understandable. But basing such a vote on deception, is less understandable.

I found voting for Hillary Clinton not only the best option, but finally the only one. Given Jill Stein's dedicated and deceptive campaign against Hillary, a vote for Stein was not a vote against Trump. It was a vote against Hillary. Only a vote for Hillary was also a vote against Trump, and a vote against Trump was the only moral option this year. So I was proud to vote for the compassionate professional against the amateur deceiver, and to add my small amount to the popular vote victory that sent a message that we do not approve of this election.

And I had voted Green since and including 1996.

-- Eric you really need to stop drinking that  f-ing  koolaid. It is seriously f-ing with your brain cells

[Eric the Green]

What were you drinking that so deceived you?

I don't drink Kool-aid, fucking or otherwise.

Basing votes on deception has gotten Americans all over the political spectrum into VERY deep trouble.

[Galen]

(11-22-2016, 02:03 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You were deceived. I don't know how many Bernie "bots" suffered from this, or whether it swung the election. Probably not. I can't disparage a vote for Jill Stein too much, especially in a non-swing state, since I've done it myself, and it's understandable. But basing such a vote on deception, is less understandable.

I found voting for Hillary Clinton not only the best option, but finally the only one. Given Jill Stein's dedicated and deceptive campaign against Hillary, a vote for Stein was not a vote against Trump. It was a vote against Hillary. Only a vote for Hillary was also a vote against Trump, and a vote against Trump was the only moral option this year. So I was proud to vote for the compassionate professional against the amateur deceiver, and to add my small amount to the popular vote victory that sent a message that we do not approve of this election.

And I had voted Green since and including 1996.

-- Eric you really need to stop drinking that  f-ing  koolaid. It is seriously f-ing with your brain cells

I am pretty sure that he had fried his brain back in the sixties.  Its a little late to worry about that now.

[Odin]

(11-22-2016, 02:03 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You were deceived. I don't know how many Bernie "bots" suffered from this, or whether it swung the election. Probably not. I can't disparage a vote for Jill Stein too much, especially in a non-swing state, since I've done it myself, and it's understandable. But basing such a vote on deception, is less understandable.

I found voting for Hillary Clinton not only the best option, but finally the only one. Given Jill Stein's dedicated and deceptive campaign against Hillary, a vote for Stein was not a vote against Trump. It was a vote against Hillary. Only a vote for Hillary was also a vote against Trump, and a vote against Trump was the only moral option this year. So I was proud to vote for the compassionate professional against the amateur deceiver, and to add my small amount to the popular vote victory that sent a message that we do not approve of this election.

And I had voted Green since and including 1996.

-- Eric you really need to stop drinking that  f-ing  koolaid. It is seriously f-ing with your brain cells

You need to quit drinking the Infowars kool-aid.

[Marypoza]

(11-22-2016, 04:21 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-22-2016, 02:03 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(11-21-2016, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You were deceived. I don't know how many Bernie "bots" suffered from this, or whether it swung the election. Probably not. I can't disparage a vote for Jill Stein too much, especially in a non-swing state, since I've done it myself, and it's understandable. But basing such a vote on deception, is less understandable.

I found voting for Hillary Clinton not only the best option, but finally the only one. Given Jill Stein's dedicated and deceptive campaign against Hillary, a vote for Stein was not a vote against Trump. It was a vote against Hillary. Only a vote for Hillary was also a vote against Trump, and a vote against Trump was the only moral option this year. So I was proud to vote for the compassionate professional against the amateur deceiver, and to add my small amount to the popular vote victory that sent a message that we do not approve of this election.

And I had voted Green since and including 1996.

-- Eric you really need to stop drinking that  f-ing  koolaid. It is seriously f-ing with your brain cells

You need to quit drinking the Infowars kool-aid.

-- sorry don't watch/listen to lnfowars (not even sure if it's radio or tv)

[Marypoza]

(11-22-2016, 04:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: What were you drinking that so deceived you?

I don't drink Kool-aid, fucking or otherwise.

Basing votes on deception has gotten Americans all over the political spectrum into VERY deep trouble.

-- l like Singapore slings when l  can get em, otherwise a sunrise will do. This time of yr my dearly departed Granny's eggnogg is looking good. She used to upend a fifth of Jack into the bowl & let pour til it ran out

[pbrower2a]

We have all been deceived.

The Economic Right (the sorts who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as the Master Class gets whatever it can get) has played a game with the single-area interests (for guns, school prayer, and fundamentalist control of the educational culture, but against homosexuality and reproductive rights), offering themselves as the only ones who care about such things. I have heard people say that they voted for Donald Trump because they wanted to support "God's Law" even if Donald Trump is the most immoral man to ever get nominated by a major political party for President. For the single-issue Right no human suffering, no human suffering is in excess so long as it leads one to Jesus. Eternity is everything, and it is worth being burned alive if in a preventable industrial accident if such spares one from the harsh judgment of a cruel God. Happiness in This World is suspect. sadist, meet masochist. Ultra-materialist, meet the ultimate deniers of bliss through materialism.

The Economic Right has also aligned itself with a white, rural mass low culture whose devotees (Sarah Palin's "Real America") believe fails to get the respect that it deserves. Anything exotic, arcane, or cosmopolitan fares badly in the rural areas of the Midlands, Mountain South, and Deep South. To be sure, Atlanta and Dallas may be as culturally sophisticated as such Northern cities as Cleveland and Milwaukee... but there are few such cities south and east of I-35 and I-64. The white, rural mass low culture is highly commercialized and only slightly creative -- but it is a big part of America. Wal*Mart serves it well. Maybe those of us who love hip-hop, folk, classical, or jazz don't have to adopt it, but we need to recognize the 'country' culture as valid as ours because it is far more American. Remember: if you are listening to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or Chopin, you are not listening to truly American music. Maybe you better fit the cultures of the old Hohenzollern and Hapsburg Empires than America.

White people who still have ties to the rustic culture are still the majority. You may prefer your un-American music and literature, your foreign films, your pseudo-French (if not French!) wines, and your micro-brews that are closer to German or Czech tastes in beer than to the mass-market swill that people drink to get drunk. If you truly love America, then maybe you need to defer to the unvarnished tastes of the "Real America" that won a smashing victory on November 8. Defer or cut yourself off from many possible friends.

If you dislike that culture, then maybe you are not really American. You either have become more Czech or Belgian than American, you are still a member of some Latin-American or Asian ethnic group even if your ancestors haven't been outside the US since the nineteenth century, or you are tied to some part of the Black Power movement that became part of the black middle class. But if you despise the majoritarian white culture, don't even think of any attempt to pry the white working class from the Hard Right. Cultural identity is a visceral quality, and the Hard Right has won the "Real America". Political entities that once seemed solid, like the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Soviet Union, and Yugoslavia demonstrate what can happen under ethnic polarization. Cultural polarization is just as real.

[Mikebert]

(11-20-2016, 01:55 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-20-2016, 08:14 AM)Mikebert Wrote:

(11-19-2016, 05:21 AM)Galen Wrote: Murray Rothbard once pointed out that the Progressive Era, with its idea of a technocratic elite, had not ended in the eighties and I am inclined to agree with this assessment.   The last fourth turning spelled the end of classical liberalism and so it seems likely that this one spell the final end of the Progressive Era.  Judging from current trends it seems likely that the upcoming first turning will be defined by nationalism but on a much smaller scale than was known in the twentieth century.  If so then the nation-state as we know it is on the decline on an even longer time scale.  Probably about two centuries give or take a half-century.

This is an example of sloppy thinking. The Progressive Era end in 1920.  This brand of Progressivism was spearheaded by Republicans.  The Republican party then was a pro-business, free market party then just like now.  They were also the Blue party.

First I've heard that Wilson  was a Republican.

Didn't say he was.  I said the progressive era was spearheaded by Republicans.  The spearhead goes in first.  The Progressive era began around 1900 and was largely a project of Republicans like Lafollette and R. Roosevelt.  Later Progressive Democrats like Wilson also were involved.

[pbrower2a]

1920 -- last decade of the 3T leading into the Great Depression/WWII Crisis, and essentially a reversion to the values of the Gilded Age (except for bad patent medicines and mass employment of children in mines and factories).

Does Donald Trump suggest a return to the political norms of the Gilded Age? Yes.

[pbrower2a]

(11-29-2016, 05:50 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(11-29-2016, 05:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1920 -- last decade of the 3T leading into the Great Depression/WWII Crisis, and essentially a reversion to the values of the Gilded Age (except for bad patent medicines and mass employment of children in mines and factories).

Does Donald Trump suggest a return to the political norms of the Gilded Age? Yes.

Trump and all the rest of the Red Boomers (and fragment of Red Xers) who support him are basically post seasonal. They lament the passing of the 3T, they want to go back to it. They are attempting a counterrevolution to defeat history itself.

I sure hope the Left don't fall into the same trap of trying to return to the past conflicts of the 3T or more likely in the case of the Left the conflicts of the 2T.

Instead ... I say ... FORWARD!!!!

The whole crew looks terribly post-seasonal, even at times seeking a return to the 3T of the previous Saeculum.   I think he wants to put race relations back fifty years (when real estate owners could discriminate at will against dark-skinned people), labor-management relations back ninety (who needs unions when Big Business needs the freedom to work people to death?), and environmental concerns back 120. Count on the Hard Right to get their 'cultural ' issues -- and I don't mean "Brahms vs. Wagner" -- pushed onto us  all.  

It all asks for trouble.

[2Legit2Quit]

(11-23-2016, 07:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: We have all been deceived.

The Economic Right (the sorts who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as the Master Class gets whatever it can get) has played a game with the single-area  interests (for guns, school prayer, and fundamentalist control of the educational culture, but against homosexuality and reproductive rights), offering themselves as the only ones who care about such things. I have heard people say that they voted for Donald Trump because they wanted to support "God's Law" even if Donald Trump is the most immoral man to ever get nominated by a major political party for President. For the single-issue Right no human suffering,  no human suffering is in excess so long as it leads one to Jesus. Eternity is everything, and it is worth being burned alive if in a preventable industrial accident if such spares one from the harsh judgment of a cruel God. Happiness in This World is suspect. sadist, meet masochist. Ultra-materialist, meet the ultimate deniers of bliss through materialism.  

The Economic Right has also aligned itself with a white, rural mass low culture whose devotees (Sarah Palin's "Real America")  believe fails to get the respect that it deserves. Anything exotic, arcane, or cosmopolitan fares badly in the rural areas of the Midlands, Mountain South, and Deep South. To be sure, Atlanta and Dallas  may be as culturally sophisticated as such Northern cities as Cleveland and Milwaukee... but  there are few such cities south and east of I-35 and I-64. The white, rural mass low culture is highly commercialized and only slightly creative -- but it is a big part of America. Wal*Mart serves it well. Maybe those of us who love hip-hop, folk, classical, or jazz don't have to adopt it, but we need to recognize the 'country' culture as valid as ours because it is far more American. Remember: if you are listening to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or Chopin, you are not listening to truly American music. Maybe you better fit the cultures of the old Hohenzollern and Hapsburg Empires than America.
 
White people who still have ties to the rustic culture are still the majority. You may prefer your un-American music and literature, your foreign films, your pseudo-French (if not French!) wines, and your micro-brews that are closer to German or Czech tastes in beer than to the mass-market swill that people drink to get drunk. If you truly love America, then maybe you need to defer to the unvarnished tastes of the "Real America" that won a smashing victory on November 8. Defer or cut yourself off from many possible friends.

If you dislike that culture, then maybe you are not really American. You either have become more Czech or Belgian than American, you are still a member of some Latin-American or Asian ethnic group even if your ancestors haven't been outside the US since the nineteenth century, or you are tied to some part of the Black Power movement that became part of the black middle class. But if you despise the majoritarian white culture, don't even think of any attempt to pry the white working class from the Hard Right. Cultural identity is a visceral quality, and the Hard Right has won the "Real America". Political entities that once seemed solid, like the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Soviet Union, and Yugoslavia demonstrate what can happen under ethnic polarization. Cultural polarization is just as real.

Sorry, that diatribe is cocked. 

The Dems are now the party of the capitalists. Trump's election, like similar political shifts in Europe, is a repudiation of neoliberalism. 

Dms are not progressive any longer, they are the Republicans with a new name.