Dead Malls and the Generational Cycle

[Bronsin]

Know that this has been a few years in the making.......

http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12

[pbrower2a]

(12-31-2016, 10:21 AM)Bronsin Wrote: Know that this has been a few years in the making.......

http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12

Donald Trump is NOT to blame for this. He will be to blame for much else, like a likely erosion of civil liberties and further degradation of working conditions and intellectual life...

The retail-merchandising business has long relied upon impulse shoppers, and people burned in the 2007-2009 meltdown are no longer the free-spending shoppers that they once were. People now plan what they intend to buy. If they buy something on impulse it is inexpensive and small -- like a video or a pop CD.

Let's be blunt: retail profits depend upon people buying schlock at the low end (Wal*Mart) and overpriced stuff at the high end (Neiman-Marcus). people are beginning to recognize. Dry-goods retailing is just another chain in the conduit from raw-materials extraction to the landfill. Americans now have a surfeit of stuff, and the tiny dwellings that many Americans now are in have little room for  more stuff. If you want to see the stuff that people bought a few years ago that they now find embarrassing, then just look for "Big Mouth Billy Bass" at a local thrift store, along with VHS tapes and novels that nobody now reads. 

Retailing is not a smart business. I have seen many college majors derided with the warning: "It will get you a job in retailing", the lowest-paying white-collar economic activity that there is. Low-paying activities do not attract the Best and Brightest. Maybe the under-paid anthropology major who got excited reading about the discoveries of Lewis Leakey but can't get a job paying more than the minimum wage in white-collar work finds that driving a truck at least pays for something more than food and a dingy flat.

...Because of the modicum of success that dry-goods retailing (basically anything small-ticket except for groceries) used to have but no longer has, the infrastructure that dry-goods retailing used to have is now orphaned as the "dead mall". So it is with strip malls, outlet malls, and enclosed malls. Just think of all the failures... like Borders', Radio Shack, Montgomery-Ward, the Bombay Company, Sharper Image...

I had a thread on Dead Malls in the old Forum. The economics of retail failure and the absence of replacements for failed stores, as well as the rigidity of the high-cost shopping mall that cannot adapt even to ethnic shifts have little to do with politics. The grocery business is safe because people must eat, and even poor people can at least get food aid fairly easily.

[Ragnarök_62]

(12-31-2016, 11:13 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-31-2016, 10:21 AM)Bronsin Wrote: Know that this has been a few years in the making.......

http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12

Donald Trump is NOT to blame for this. He will be to blame for much else, like a likely erosion of civil liberties and further degradation of working conditions and intellectual life...

The retail-merchandising business has long relied upon impulse shoppers, and people burned in the 2007-2009 meltdown are no longer the free-spending shoppers that they once were. People now plan what they intend to buy. If they buy something on impulse it is inexpensive and small -- like a video or a pop CD.

Let's be blunt: retail profits depend upon people buying schlock at the low end (Wal*Mart) and overpriced stuff at the high end (Neiman-Marcus). people are beginning to recognize. Dry-goods retailing is just another chain in the conduit from raw-materials extraction to the landfill. Americans now have a surfeit of stuff, and the tiny dwellings that many Americans now are in have little room for  more stuff. If you want to see the stuff that people bought a few years ago that they now find embarrassing, then just look for "Big Mouth Billy Bass" at a local thrift store, along with VHS tapes and novels that nobody now reads. 

Retailing is not a smart business. I have seen many college majors derided with the warning: "It will get you a job in retailing", the lowest-paying economic activity that there is. Low-paying activities do not attract the Best and Brightest. Maybe the under-paid anthropology major who got excited reading about the discoveries of Lewis Leakey but can't get a job paying more than the minimum wage in white-collar work finds that driving a truck at least pays for something more than food and a dingy flat.

...Because of the modicum of success that dry-goods retailing (basically anything small-ticket except for groceries) used to have but no longer has, the infrastructure that dry-goods retailing used to have is now orphaned as the "dead mall". So it is with strip malls, outlet malls, and enclosed malls. Just think of all the failures... like Borders', Radio Shack, Montgomery-Ward, the Bombay Company, Sharper Image...

I had a thread on Dead Malls in the old Forum. The economics of retail failure and the absence of replacements for failed stores, as well as the rigidity of the high-cost shopping mall that cannot adapt even to ethnic shifts have little to do with politics. The grocery business is safe because people must eat, and even poor people can at least get food aid fairly easily.

Bingo.
http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12
I blame neo-liberal economics myself.  It's all  karma you see.  As long as the downward spiral of the fortunes of working folks continues, it will feed into the already established positive feedback loop of ever falling effective demand. 

The current state of working America has also rendered a great many things, to be white elephants.  

On the top of my head, boats, RV's, ATV's,  a 2nd house, are all now white elephants. My town even has it's own white elephant.  We're all the proud owners of a huge YMCA which is on the far west side of town.  It was supposed to work out and all, but nope. We've hemorrhaged all of the good paying jobs and the membership roles have crashed.  All jobs here = "room to move as a fry-cook", which just pulls enough in for necessities.

As for stuff to be had at Sears, etc. Why pay retail when you can save a load at thrift stores? Even Wall*mart can't compete with their own stuff which is heavily discounted.

[Warren Dew]

(12-31-2016, 11:13 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-31-2016, 10:21 AM)Bronsin Wrote: Know that this has been a few years in the making.......

http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12

Donald Trump is NOT to blame for this. He will be to blame for much else, like a likely erosion of civil liberties and further degradation of working conditions and intellectual life...

The retail-merchandising business has long relied upon impulse shoppers, and people burned in the 2007-2009 meltdown are no longer the free-spending shoppers that they once were. People now plan what they intend to buy. If they buy something on impulse it is inexpensive and small -- like a video or a pop CD.

Let's be blunt: retail profits depend upon people buying schlock at the low end (Wal*Mart) and overpriced stuff at the high end (Neiman-Marcus). people are beginning to recognize. Dry-goods retailing is just another chain in the conduit from raw-materials extraction to the landfill. Americans now have a surfeit of stuff, and the tiny dwellings that many Americans now are in have little room for  more stuff. If you want to see the stuff that people bought a few years ago that they now find embarrassing, then just look for "Big Mouth Billy Bass" at a local thrift store, along with VHS tapes and novels that nobody now reads. 

Retailing is not a smart business. I have seen many college majors derided with the warning: "It will get you a job in retailing", the lowest-paying economic activity that there is. Low-paying activities do not attract the Best and Brightest. Maybe the under-paid anthropology major who got excited reading about the discoveries of Lewis Leakey but can't get a job paying more than the minimum wage in white-collar work finds that driving a truck at least pays for something more than food and a dingy flat.

...Because of the modicum of success that dry-goods retailing (basically anything small-ticket except for groceries) used to have but no longer has, the infrastructure that dry-goods retailing used to have is now orphaned as the "dead mall". So it is with strip malls, outlet malls, and enclosed malls. Just think of all the failures... like Borders', Radio Shack, Montgomery-Ward, the Bombay Company, Sharper Image...

I had a thread on Dead Malls in the old Forum. The economics of retail failure and the absence of replacements for failed stores, as well as the rigidity of the high-cost shopping mall that cannot adapt even to ethnic shifts have little to do with politics. The grocery business is safe because people must eat, and even poor people can at least get food aid fairly easily.

I wonder if there could be nontraditional solutions to the empty space.  An anchor location would be just the right size for an electric go cart place.  Some people might prefer restaurants that are quieter because they have more space between tables, such that one could actually carry on a conversation.  These things might become feasible if the rents per square foot come down enough.

[Ragnarök_62]

(12-31-2016, 06:23 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: I wonder if there could be nontraditional solutions to the empty space.  An anchor location would be just the right size for an electric go cart place.  Some people might prefer restaurants that are quieter because they have more space between tables, such that one could actually carry on a conversation.  These things might become feasible if the rents per square foot come down enough.

Hmmmm.... Yes.  I think they could be re-purposed as new town squares if they're not too far away. The anchor spaces could be used as green house spots. Next, you can have thrift shops, a recycling center, and farmer's markets. The cherry on top would be Uber/shuttle service/taxis/etc. I agree on restaurants. Fresh ingredients from the green house could be used there as well as the farmer's market. Now that would be an awesome way to opt out of this rat race neo-liberal crap economy we have now. Let's have it for what's old, is new again. Let's all get back to the Garden.





Kiddies!  I bet some of them got a few hits from the joints being passed around.

[pbrower2a]

Website on dead malls, called "Dead Malls"

Why do malls die?

1. Aging structures. All buildings deteriorate with age, and when maintenance becomes unjustifiably expensive for a for-profit entity, maintenance ends or gets scaled back, a mall goes very bad very fast. The oldest ones are over 50 years old -- and as I say of 50-year-old houses, the places are too old to not have problems and too new to have any charm.

2. Competition. A bigger and better mall nearby and with better access to highways and better parking, and an older one can lose customers and rental revenues. Profits dwindle, and so does the mall.

3. Death of retailers. Any mall that had to depend heavily upon Montgomery-Ward was in big trouble when Montgomery-Ward shut down.

4. Demographic change. Shopping malls are expensive infrastructure to build and maintain, and they require well-heeled customers as big spenders. As the potential customer base goes from middle-class to poor, the customer revenue can no longer support the cost of maintenance.

But even ethnic change can hurt the mall. The boutique stores inside are tailor-made for well-heeled white middle-class shoppers but because of their rigid style of management, they can't adapt to ethnic change even if the potential clientele is still middle-class if the potential customers in the area are now black, Asian, or Hispanic.

5. The general death of the traditional department store. The idea that one can get anything that one can get any dry goods that one wants from Sears unless very specialized is no longer relevant. See also J C Penney, which may be dying. Wal*Mart, Target, and Kohl's are taking over much of this business.

The idea behind the traditional department store was that the clerks who would remain employed for some time would be knowledgeable about the merchandise. That is over. Kohl's does not even pretend to have specialized clerks who stock a department, give advice to customers, and ring up sales; people largely do self-service and go through a checkout like that of a grocery-store checkout.

Note what I said about retail clerks: they are usually the low end of white-collar employees in formal education, and the person who graduates with an unmarketable college degree doesn't usually stay long. About thirty-five years ago I heard retail clerks where I worked say things like "I don't want to do factory work" or "I don't want to be a file clerk". Within a few months they were doing what they professed that they did not want to do. Retailing is a horrible job for someone who has a strong work ethic, imagination, talent, attention for detail, specialized skills, or willingness to get their hands dirty.

I saw the employee discount as a good way to get good clothes at modest cost for interviews, and if one works weekends, one usually gets a couple of days off in which one might go to job interviews.

[Warren Dew]

(01-01-2017, 12:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: But even ethnic change can hurt the mall. The boutique stores inside are tailor-made for well-heeled white middle-class shoppers but because of their rigid style of management, they can't adapt to ethnic change even if the potential clientele is still middle-class if the potential customers in the area are now black, Asian, or Hispanic.

Good post but I'm not sure I agree with this part.  There's pretty high turnover in mall boutique stores, even in healthy malls; I'd expect ethnic changes to be reflected in the store population within a few years.

Quote:The idea behind the traditional department store was that the clerks who would remain employed for some time would be knowledgeable about the merchandise.

I miss sales people who actually knew their merchandise and could provide good information and recommendations as part of their service.  I'm not sure they were ever common at malls, though.  Seems like most boomers are more interested in lowest price than in best value for the price.

[Mikebert]

Donald Trump will be blamed for this because it will happen on his watch, because that is how these things go. By itself it is nothing, but if it is followed by the beginning of a recession (that will have nothing to do with it) then it might be seen as a bigger issue.

If Trump were smart he would use this as an example of the job-destroying policies of his predecessors and push for eliminating the exemption from sales taxes online retailers get.  The kingpin of these is Amazon.  CEO of Amazon is Jeff Bezos with whom Trump is at war.  What better way to stick it to Bezos--as candidate Trump vowed to do?  This could be a wonderful policy politically, why should online retailers get special tax treatment that destroys local retail jobs?

[Warren Dew]

(01-01-2017, 08:08 AM)Mikebert Wrote: If Trump were smart he would use this as an example of the job-destroying policies of his predecessors and push for eliminating the exemption from sales taxes online retailers get.  The kingpin of these is Amazon.  CEO of Amazon is Jeff Bezos with whom Trump is at war.  What better way to stick it to Bezos--as candidate Trump vowed to do?  This could be a wonderful policy politically, why should online retailers get special tax treatment that destroys local retail jobs?

Actually Amazon is in favor of extending sales taxes to online retailers, because they are big enough and have operations in a sufficient number of states that they have to charge tax in a lot of cases anyway.  Nor would it change anything with respect to brick and mortar retailers.

[pbrower2a]

(01-01-2017, 05:23 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 12:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: But even ethnic change can hurt the mall. The boutique stores inside are tailor-made for well-heeled white middle-class shoppers but because of their rigid style of management, they can't adapt to ethnic change even if the potential clientele is still middle-class if the potential customers in the area are now black, Asian, or Hispanic.

Good post but I'm not sure I agree with this part.  There's pretty high turnover in mall boutique stores, even in healthy malls; I'd expect ethnic changes to be reflected in the store population within a few years.

I'm not sure whether you refer to the staff or to the stores. Boutique stores in the malls at one time were basically the same entities (like Chess King, Hickory Farms of Ohio, County Seat, Spencer Gifts, B. Dalton, Waldenbooks, Musicland.... one could expect to see the same chains whether one was in Arlington, Texas or Arlington, Virginia). It was a homogeneous experience, probably linked to the fact that American middle-class (then largely white) households were mobile. But it also reflected the blandness of middle-class life in the early 1960s, and several of those chains no longer exist.

Store staff of course had a very high turnover, reflecting much firing of marginal employees (especially those stupid enough to believe that they could take from the till) and the tendency of people to work in such places only until they got something better. That's the nature of low-paid work; it gets bad workers and creates a m attitude among those capable of doing something else.

I notice that many malls are having a hard time retaining lessees.

Quote:

Quote:The idea behind the traditional department store was that the clerks who would remain employed for some time would be knowledgeable about the merchandise.

I miss sales people who actually knew their merchandise and could provide good information and recommendations as part of their service.  I'm not sure they were ever common at malls, though.  Seems like most boomers are more interested in lowest price than in best value for the price.

Sears, J C Penney, and Montgomery-Ward... maybe Woolworth's at one time... may have operated with that mystique at one time. Nobody believes that anymore. K-Mart, Wal*Mart, Target, Meijer, and Kohl's now operate more like grocery stores in that one does self-service and takes purchase to a centralized checkout. The idea that one could purchase groceries, housewares, sporting goods,   clothing, and recorded sound at the same register used to be unthinkable. Now such is the norm for the middle class and the working classes. There are now stores that still offer the mystique of the old department store and specialty store, but those are dedicated to people still free-spenders who lack the time in which to compare prices.

[Warren Dew]

(01-02-2017, 01:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 05:23 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 12:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: But even ethnic change can hurt the mall. The boutique stores inside are tailor-made for well-heeled white middle-class shoppers but because of their rigid style of management, they can't adapt to ethnic change even if the potential clientele is still middle-class if the potential customers in the area are now black, Asian, or Hispanic.

Good post but I'm not sure I agree with this part.  There's pretty high turnover in mall boutique stores, even in healthy malls; I'd expect ethnic changes to be reflected in the store population within a few years.

I'm not sure whether you refer to the staff or to the stores. Boutique stores in the malls at one time were basically the same entities (like Chess King, Hickory Farms of Ohio, County Seat, Spencer Gifts, B. Dalton, Waldenbooks, Musicland.... one could expect to see the same chains whether one was in Arlington, Texas or Arlington, Virginia). It was a homogeneous experience, probably linked to the fact that American middle-class (then largely white) households were mobile. But it also reflected the blandness of middle-class life in the early 1960s, and several of those chains no longer exist.

Store staff of course had a very high turnover, reflecting much firing of marginal employees (especially those stupid enough to believe that they could take from the till) and the tendency of people to work in such places only until they got something better. That's the nature of low-paid work; it gets bad workers and creates a m attitude among those capable of doing something else.

I notice that many malls are having a hard time retaining lessees.

I was referring to the stores.  Staff has always had high turnover, yes.  I do remember the days you speak of, but I don't think they've existed for a while.  Heck, I remember when B Dalton and Waldenbooks were breakthroughs that made books much more available than they had been; there was a time when most bookstores were dusty places clustered near universities, with no parking for people who had graduated but still loved books.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:The idea behind the traditional department store was that the clerks who would remain employed for some time would be knowledgeable about the merchandise.

I miss sales people who actually knew their merchandise and could provide good information and recommendations as part of their service.  I'm not sure they were ever common at malls, though.  Seems like most boomers are more interested in lowest price than in best value for the price.

Sears, J C Penney, and Montgomery-Ward... maybe Woolworth's at one time... may have operated with that mystique at one time. Nobody believes that anymore. K-Mart, Wal*Mart, Target, Meijer, and Kohl's now operate more like grocery stores in that one does self-service and takes purchase to a centralized checkout. The idea that one could purchase groceries, housewares, sporting goods,   clothing, and recorded sound at the same register used to be unthinkable. Now such  is the norm for the middle class and the working classes. There are now stores that still offer the mystique of the old department store and specialty store, but those are dedicated to people still free-spenders who lack the time in which to compare prices.

Or people who are willing and able to pay a premium to get something that's actually what they need, rather than something they may well end up throwing out, and are grateful enough for the sales help not to then go elsewhere for the actual purchase.  Perhaps they do lack the time to return things rather than throwing them out.

There may be another difference between silents and boomers, though.  Silents tended to stay thin, so they could buy, say, high quality jackets and wear them for decades.  Boomers tend to get heavier and heavier, so they can't typically wear the same jacket even for one decade, no matter how high the quality.  There's less time to amortize any purchase premium paid for a better quality purchase and purchase experience.

[The Wonkette]

This is apropos.  The Washington Post's Sunday issue features a small suburban mall that was my hangout in junior high school because of its proximity; it was the place where you could go to after your FTA or yearbook club meeting after school and get an ice cream.

Quote:Shops like Ties, Shirts and More fill Beltway Plaza Mall, one of the area’s oldest shopping malls. The owner of the shop is Indian. Kiflemarian is Eritrean, and she sells these rainbow-hued dress shirts and broad ties to a largely Latino clientele. She has learned to say a few words in Spanish, mostly greetings and numbers, because neck sizes and prices are important.

At Beltway Plaza, Spanish rings out from every aisle and the food court is populated by not Taco Bells, but various immigrant cuisines.

“It feels to me like back home. It’s the center of social life,” Kiflemarian says.

She laughs. There is one way it is nothing like home: Back in Eritrea, she says, she never imagined that she’d be speaking Spanish one day.

Unlike Tysons Corner or Arundel Mills, Beltway Plaza doesn’t house a Victoria’s Secret, a M.A.C. store or an American Eagle Outfitters. Mostly, Beltway Plaza has found a niche as a large — and faintly 1980s — urban souk, hawking the necessities, and the oddities, of immigrant life.

It can confound the users of Yelp, who bemoan its “shadiness” and who struggle to comprehend just what they’ll buy at Luv’n Time, the lingerie shop, or First Lady, with its Sunday sermon-appropriate power suits and lace hats the size of hubcaps.

“They’re not big merchants; they’re not big corporate entities,” says Jon Enten, a marketing consultant for the mall. “We have everything from African fashion to an As-Seen-on-TV store.”

In a retail landscape that is increasingly bleak, could this be this the future of malls?

Here is the link to the full article.

Washington Post article

[Mikebert]

(01-01-2017, 07:49 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 08:08 AM)Mikebert Wrote: If Trump were smart he would use this as an example of the job-destroying policies of his predecessors and push for eliminating the exemption from sales taxes online retailers get.  The kingpin of these is Amazon.  CEO of Amazon is Jeff Bezos with whom Trump is at war.  What better way to stick it to Bezos--as candidate Trump vowed to do?  This could be a wonderful policy politically, why should online retailers get special tax treatment that destroys local retail jobs?

Actually Amazon is in favor of extending sales taxes to online retailers, because they are big enough and have operations in a sufficient number of states that they have to charge tax in a lot of cases anyway.  Nor would it change anything with respect to brick and mortar retailers.

It may not change much, but there is a question of fairness.  As one who is opposed to crony capitalism I would think you would be in favor of this.  On the other hand, I did not know Amazon was in favor of this.

[Eric the Green]

(12-31-2016, 05:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Bingo.
http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12
I blame neo-liberal economics myself.  It's all  karma you see.  As long as the downward spiral of the fortunes of working folks continues, it will feed into the already established positive feedback loop of ever falling effective demand. 

My thoughts tend in that direction, no surprise there

Personally, I am amazed at how hard shopping has become. Finding a decent product that lasts, is problematic these days. Now I'm once again seeking a CD player.....

[Warren Dew]

(01-02-2017, 04:57 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 07:49 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 08:08 AM)Mikebert Wrote: If Trump were smart he would use this as an example of the job-destroying policies of his predecessors and push for eliminating the exemption from sales taxes online retailers get.  The kingpin of these is Amazon.  CEO of Amazon is Jeff Bezos with whom Trump is at war.  What better way to stick it to Bezos--as candidate Trump vowed to do?  This could be a wonderful policy politically, why should online retailers get special tax treatment that destroys local retail jobs?

Actually Amazon is in favor of extending sales taxes to online retailers, because they are big enough and have operations in a sufficient number of states that they have to charge tax in a lot of cases anyway.  Nor would it change anything with respect to brick and mortar retailers.

It may not change much, but there is a question of fairness.  As one who is opposed to crony capitalism I would think you would be in favor of this.  On the other hand, I did not know Amazon was in favor of this.

I would be in favor of a form of this that would not force small online retailers out of business due to excessive regulatory requirements to handle complex state specific sales tax rules.  For example, I would be okay with requiring collection of the single lowest sales tax rate in the buyer's state for any category of goods, with services exempted since their treatment is more complex.  States would of course be free to flatten their sales tax structure across different categories of goods to prevent etailers from gaining an unfair advantage.  States should also be required to accept a simple, one page paper form accompanying payment; they could permit electronic submission, but should not be allowed to require it, since it can be difficult for sufficiently small businesses.

Alternatively, if it only applied to sellers with more than, say, $10 million in gross sales, adjusted for inflation - which is not that big a store - that would be okay too, though someone might be able to figure out a way of exploiting the loophole.

[Mikebert]

(01-02-2017, 07:29 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: I would be in favor of a form of this that would not force small online retailers out of business due to excessive regulatory requirements to handle complex state specific sales tax rules.

I don't see how this is an issue.  Software that does this must already exist. We have mapping programs and tax prep programs that deal with problems a hundred times more complex that this.  Very small businesses would just buy a commercial package just like millions of Americans do for their tax prep.

Anyways, it's not gonna happen, if Bezos is OK with it then Trump would never do it.

Also have you formulated an explanation for your supply side stimulus concept yet?
Thanks

[Warren Dew]

(01-03-2017, 07:33 AM)Mikebert Wrote:

(01-02-2017, 07:29 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: I would be in favor of a form of this that would not force small online retailers out of business due to excessive regulatory requirements to handle complex state specific sales tax rules.

I don't see how this is an issue.  Software that does this must already exist. We have mapping programs and tax prep programs that deal with problems a hundred times more complex that this.  Very small businesses would just buy a commercial package just like millions of Americans do for their tax prep.

Have you tried buying tax software for small businesses?  The market is orders of magnitude smaller than for individual tax software, and as a result the costs are much higher and availability is much more limited.  When I looked into this just for Massachusetts, the all up cost was going to be in the thousands; multiply that by 50 and the cost really adds up for a mom and pop type business, not to mention several hours filling things out for each state, possibly days when you include researching the rules, all also multiplied by 50.

Permitting state sales taxes on online businesses would be an exercise of the federal government's powers to regulate interstate commerce already; I don't see what the big deal would be for the federal government to prescribe uniform rules for such taxes along the lines I suggest.

[David Horn]

(01-01-2017, 07:49 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 08:08 AM)Mikebert Wrote: If Trump were smart he would use this as an example of the job-destroying policies of his predecessors and push for eliminating the exemption from sales taxes online retailers get.  The kingpin of these is Amazon.  CEO of Amazon is Jeff Bezos with whom Trump is at war.  What better way to stick it to Bezos--as candidate Trump vowed to do?  This could be a wonderful policy politically, why should online retailers get special tax treatment that destroys local retail jobs?

Actually Amazon is in favor of extending sales taxes to online retailers, because they are big enough and have operations in a sufficient number of states that they have to charge tax in a lot of cases anyway.  Nor would it change anything with respect to brick and mortar retailers.

I agree that brick-and-mortar, as we've know it, is dead.  Some other thing has to evolve, but it's not there yet.  It's very hard to buy some items without touching them (or trying them on for size, fit and bling-worthiness).  So goods-suppliers need to put their products out there, and retailers are the current venue.  What happens when they disappear? 

High end suppliers can offer free shipping and returns to create churn, and some of that will stick with buyers who actually do need, or at least want  this stuff.  StitchFix is one good example of a totally new model.  In the same market space, companies like Lululemon (all things yoga), Patagonia (all things outdoorsy) and prAna (a bit of both Lululemon and Pategonia) can make it on specialty appeal and exclusivity.  Who pulls that into the general market?

[David Horn]

(01-02-2017, 04:57 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 07:49 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 08:08 AM)Mikebert Wrote: If Trump were smart he would use this as an example of the job-destroying policies of his predecessors and push for eliminating the exemption from sales taxes online retailers get.  The kingpin of these is Amazon.  CEO of Amazon is Jeff Bezos with whom Trump is at war.  What better way to stick it to Bezos--as candidate Trump vowed to do?  This could be a wonderful policy politically, why should online retailers get special tax treatment that destroys local retail jobs?

Actually Amazon is in favor of extending sales taxes to online retailers, because they are big enough and have operations in a sufficient number of states that they have to charge tax in a lot of cases anyway.  Nor would it change anything with respect to brick and mortar retailers.

It may not change much, but there is a question of fairness.  As one who is opposed to crony capitalism I would think you would be in favor of this.  On the other hand, I did not know Amazon was in favor of this.

Amazon has a split business model.  It operates as a huge retail outlet with physical facilities in most sates, and it also hosts hundreds of small retailers in much the same way eBay does.  Since they are already required to collect sales taxes on their own sales, why not keep the field level by making others do the same.

[David Horn]

(01-02-2017, 05:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-31-2016, 05:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Bingo.
http://www.businessinsider.com/stores-cl...rs-2016-12
I blame neo-liberal economics myself.  It's all  karma you see.  As long as the downward spiral of the fortunes of working folks continues, it will feed into the already established positive feedback loop of ever falling effective demand. 

My thoughts tend in that direction, no surprise there

Personally, I am amazed at how hard shopping has become. Finding a decent product that lasts, is problematic these days. Now I'm once again seeking a CD player.....

You are seeking a nearly dead product.  Current offerings are going to be dismal but dirt cheap. I recently needed a Blu-Ray player for the TV in my bedroom.  I got one for $65 that works great.  It replaces one I bought for $450.  Since I also have the TV connected to my media server, losing the Blu-Ray was only a problem when I rent movies.  If Redbox dies, I'll trash the player.

I suspect that the cloud-based media model will even make my server obsolete in a few years.