Neil Howe: 'Civil War Is More Likely Than People Think'

[Marypoza]

(01-19-2017, 01:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 12:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:50 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice. These right-wing assholes are stealing and destroying our country. We can't continue to think we can win by being nice. Mincing words won't work. Democrats must insist on a candidate who can win, who can be a leader and tell the truth and not back down to the American Nazis.

We cannot tolerate the right-wing Nazis calling themselves "anti-establishment," or their insane activities a "revolution." They are fascists. They are ruthless scumbags who only want to keep their nation white, the people poor, and the wealthy rich and in power. There is no excuse, and no basis for "understanding" them. They are sick. They only care about protecting their ridiculous anarchist, oligarchic ideology. We must expose them, we must fight them at every turn. Onto civil war if necessary. We are not one nation, and observing kiwis have no business commenting on this. The American Nazis have only the goals of wrecking our environment, keeping non-whites out, keeping the people poor, keeping them sick, deceiving the people, keeping people on the street, ruining our constitution, taking away our rights, shooting us down in the streets, allowing anyone to shoot us no matter what, and ruining our country and everything it stands for. I don't want to live in the same nation with them.

Shame on you, red America. Shame on you for ruining and dividing our country. To hell with you. We will fight you to the end. Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, you assholes better shut up. We'll shout right back in your faces. We will put you in jail if you try to stop us!

Suckers, all of you who believe we live in a democracy! We are owned by the Establishment, the wealthy businessmen like Trump who only care about their power over us. We need a revolution now!

-- Eric we progressives had a great candidate. The DNC sabotaged him & insisited on a POS that couldn't win & didn't. Rant @ red America all you want, the DNC owns this debacle

Even if the Dems had nominated Sanders, Trump still would have won.

Sanders just was not quite right to gain the vote of the deer hunting, bass fishing everyperson from Centerline, Macomb County, MI.

True; his revised horoscope score doesn't even match Trump's.

When you factor in Hillary's Jupiter rising, in fact, if her chart is correct, their scores might well be about the same.

However, he would have gotten more of the white working class Rust Belt vote than Hillary got. I think his popular vote margin might have been larger than Hillary's, as the polls suggested; allowing him to carry those three states. It's possible, but on the other hand, Trump and the Republicans would have made him a target too, although Hillary was a better target.

-- & if he carried the Brexit states he would of won the election. But we'll never know, will we since the stoopid DNC refused to run him

[Eric the Green]

Of course you know, because you have been told, that the DNC did not choose Hillary; the Democratic primary voters did. Yes, I hope a better candidate runs next time whom the voters can support.

I suspect, however, that you may not like it if the candidate is a Clinton friend, but he may just have the best horoscope score. And if so, he has the best chance to win and carry those states, and be much better than whom the Republicans run.

It should also be clear to you Maryposa by now, that this is the USA. To expect perfection in a country that voted for Bush and Trump, is a fool's errand. Someone like Obama is the best we can get. You can support whom you want; I have often voted Green, because I could. Still, we must deal with the country as it is. And realize what it is. It's a sobering thought, but it's better to realize it than be disappointed forever.

[Odin]

(01-19-2017, 09:42 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice.

Scorched earth policies, and "stealing and destroying our country", are exactly what the Democrats have been doing for 8 years.  Clinton promised to continue those policies.  Trump was just the reaction, from supporters that wanted to keep and preserve our country.

Projection, they name is Warren.

[Odin]

(01-19-2017, 12:49 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: You also need to stop kowtowing to the urban coastal elites. If the Election of 2016 was not the ultimate wake up call I don't know what is. Have you ever read "The Clustering of America?" That book is geared toward marketers but it also has great utility in politics. The problem with today's main stream Left and to an extent even disparate groups like Greens and Sanders' "Petite Socialists" is they have no real pull in places like the Rust Belt not to mention the hinterlands of the coastal urban areas. They are way too geared toward clusters like "Gold Coasts," "Money and Brains," and "Uptown Bohemians" but fail to capture many other middle income and low income clusters. In order to capture such salt of the Earth clusters who used to trend Left, the modern Left need to get out of their tony comfort zones and learn to love the everymen and everywomen in the Great Flyover.

And it's not like a lot of the "leftists" on the coasts are willing to get off their asses to vote, anyway, so it's pointless trying to pander to them. They are too unreliable.

[Odin]

(01-19-2017, 12:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:50 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice. These right-wing assholes are stealing and destroying our country. We can't continue to think we can win by being nice. Mincing words won't work. Democrats must insist on a candidate who can win, who can be a leader and tell the truth and not back down to the American Nazis.

We cannot tolerate the right-wing Nazis calling themselves "anti-establishment," or their insane activities a "revolution." They are fascists. They are ruthless scumbags who only want to keep their nation white, the people poor, and the wealthy rich and in power. There is no excuse, and no basis for "understanding" them. They are sick. They only care about protecting their ridiculous anarchist, oligarchic ideology. We must expose them, we must fight them at every turn. Onto civil war if necessary. We are not one nation, and observing kiwis have no business commenting on this. The American Nazis have only the goals of wrecking our environment, keeping non-whites out, keeping the people poor, keeping them sick, deceiving the people, keeping people on the street, ruining our constitution, taking away our rights, shooting us down in the streets, allowing anyone to shoot us no matter what, and ruining our country and everything it stands for. I don't want to live in the same nation with them.

Shame on you, red America. Shame on you for ruining and dividing our country. To hell with you. We will fight you to the end. Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, you assholes better shut up. We'll shout right back in your faces. We will put you in jail if you try to stop us!

Suckers, all of you who believe we live in a democracy! We are owned by the Establishment, the wealthy businessmen like Trump who only care about their power over us. We need a revolution now!

-- Eric we progressives had a great candidate. The DNC sabotaged him & insisited on a POS that couldn't win & didn't. Rant @ red America all you want, the DNC owns this debacle

Even if the Dems had nominated Sanders, Trump still would have won.

Sanders just was not quite right to gain the vote of the deer hunting, bass fishing everyperson from Centerline, Macomb County, MI.

Sanders' biggest problem, IMO, is his background, not his policies. All they had to do would be to bring up the picture of him being buddy-buddy with the Sandinistas and he would have been screwed.

[Odin]

(01-19-2017, 11:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- the DNC screwed over an honest to gawd old school dem so could run a mf-ing Goldwater Girl, ie a repug.

LOL, you know that her parents were Republicans and she was just following her parents' political views at the time, right? Do some fucking research and see that she that she became a very outspoken left-wing college activist. Just this alone shows that you know NOTHING about who Clinton actually is as a person.

[Warren Dew]

(01-20-2017, 09:26 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 12:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:50 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice. These right-wing assholes are stealing and destroying our country. We can't continue to think we can win by being nice. Mincing words won't work. Democrats must insist on a candidate who can win, who can be a leader and tell the truth and not back down to the American Nazis.

We cannot tolerate the right-wing Nazis calling themselves "anti-establishment," or their insane activities a "revolution." They are fascists. They are ruthless scumbags who only want to keep their nation white, the people poor, and the wealthy rich and in power. There is no excuse, and no basis for "understanding" them. They are sick. They only care about protecting their ridiculous anarchist, oligarchic ideology. We must expose them, we must fight them at every turn. Onto civil war if necessary. We are not one nation, and observing kiwis have no business commenting on this. The American Nazis have only the goals of wrecking our environment, keeping non-whites out, keeping the people poor, keeping them sick, deceiving the people, keeping people on the street, ruining our constitution, taking away our rights, shooting us down in the streets, allowing anyone to shoot us no matter what, and ruining our country and everything it stands for. I don't want to live in the same nation with them.

Shame on you, red America. Shame on you for ruining and dividing our country. To hell with you. We will fight you to the end. Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, you assholes better shut up. We'll shout right back in your faces. We will put you in jail if you try to stop us!

Suckers, all of you who believe we live in a democracy! We are owned by the Establishment, the wealthy businessmen like Trump who only care about their power over us. We need a revolution now!

-- Eric we progressives had a great candidate. The DNC sabotaged him & insisited on a POS that couldn't win & didn't. Rant @ red America all you want, the DNC owns this debacle

Even if the Dems had nominated Sanders, Trump still would have won.

Sanders just was not quite right to gain the vote of the deer hunting, bass fishing everyperson from Centerline, Macomb County, MI.

Sanders' biggest problem, IMO, is his background, not his policies. All they had to do would be to bring up the picture of him being buddy-buddy with the Sandinistas and he would have been screwed.

That's closely related to his policies, actually.

[Odin]

(01-20-2017, 09:35 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 09:26 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 12:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:50 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice. These right-wing assholes are stealing and destroying our country. We can't continue to think we can win by being nice. Mincing words won't work. Democrats must insist on a candidate who can win, who can be a leader and tell the truth and not back down to the American Nazis.

We cannot tolerate the right-wing Nazis calling themselves "anti-establishment," or their insane activities a "revolution." They are fascists. They are ruthless scumbags who only want to keep their nation white, the people poor, and the wealthy rich and in power. There is no excuse, and no basis for "understanding" them. They are sick. They only care about protecting their ridiculous anarchist, oligarchic ideology. We must expose them, we must fight them at every turn. Onto civil war if necessary. We are not one nation, and observing kiwis have no business commenting on this. The American Nazis have only the goals of wrecking our environment, keeping non-whites out, keeping the people poor, keeping them sick, deceiving the people, keeping people on the street, ruining our constitution, taking away our rights, shooting us down in the streets, allowing anyone to shoot us no matter what, and ruining our country and everything it stands for. I don't want to live in the same nation with them.

Shame on you, red America. Shame on you for ruining and dividing our country. To hell with you. We will fight you to the end. Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, you assholes better shut up. We'll shout right back in your faces. We will put you in jail if you try to stop us!

Suckers, all of you who believe we live in a democracy! We are owned by the Establishment, the wealthy businessmen like Trump who only care about their power over us. We need a revolution now!

-- Eric we progressives had a great candidate. The DNC sabotaged him & insisited on a POS that couldn't win & didn't. Rant @ red America all you want, the DNC owns this debacle

Even if the Dems had nominated Sanders, Trump still would have won.

Sanders just was not quite right to gain the vote of the deer hunting, bass fishing everyperson from Centerline, Macomb County, MI.

Sanders' biggest problem, IMO, is his background, not his policies. All they had to do would be to bring up the picture of him being buddy-buddy with the Sandinistas and he would have been screwed.

That's closely related to his policies, actually.

Not really, politically he's a rather standard social democrat. Him calling himself a socialist is just dishonesty on his part.

[Eric the Green]

(01-19-2017, 12:49 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice. These right-wing assholes are stealing and destroying our country. We can't continue to think we can win by being nice. Mincing words won't work. Democrats must insist on a candidate who can win, who can be a leader and tell the truth and not back down to the American Nazis.

We cannot tolerate the right-wing Nazis calling themselves "anti-establishment," or their insane activities a "revolution." They are fascists. They are ruthless scumbags who only want to keep their nation white, the people poor, and the wealthy rich and in power. There is no excuse, and no basis for "understanding" them. They are sick. They only care about protecting their ridiculous anarchist, oligarchic ideology. We must expose them, we must fight them at every turn. Onto civil war if necessary. We are not one nation, and observing kiwis have no business commenting on this. The American Nazis have only the goals of wrecking our environment, keeping non-whites out, keeping the people poor, keeping them sick, deceiving the people, keeping people on the street, ruining our constitution, taking away our rights, shooting us down in the streets, allowing anyone to shoot us no matter what, and ruining our country and everything it stands for. I don't want to live in the same nation with them.

Shame on you, red America. Shame on you for ruining and dividing our country. To hell with you. We will fight you to the end. Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, you assholes better shut up. We'll shout right back in your faces. We will put you in jail if you try to stop us!

Suckers, all of you who believe we live in a democracy! We are owned by the Establishment, the wealthy businessmen like Trump who only care about their power over us. We need a revolution now!

You also need to stop kowtowing to the urban coastal elites. If the Election of 2016 was not the ultimate wake up call I don't know what is. Have you ever read "The Clustering of America?" That book is geared toward marketers but it also has great utility in politics. The problem with today's main stream Left and to an extent even disparate groups like Greens and Sanders' "Petite Socialists" is they have no real pull in places like the Rust Belt not to mention the hinterlands of the coastal urban areas. They are way too geared toward clusters like "Gold Coasts," "Money and Brains," and "Uptown Bohemians" but fail to capture many other middle income and low income clusters. In order to capture such salt of the Earth clusters who used to trend Left, the modern Left need to get out of their tony comfort zones and learn to love the everymen and everywomen in the Great Flyover.

I don't hate them, but what I oppose is the ideology that has taken root out there. So just what to do to turn that around is the question, and our republic depends on it.

I don't know who the "coastal elites" are. Those on the Left have the right ideas and solutions. But I agree that people are going to need to get out of their comfort zones; this is a 4T. Michael Moore may be one role model. He is from there and he went there. And Sanders is going there.

Well, I do know there are coastal elites. There are big corporations, many high tech here on the West Coast who may not understand what's happening in the old tech world. But that does not describe Sanders or the Greens and most liberals and the Left. They understand what's going on.

The election of 2016 is a wake-up call that we can't allow this right-wing movement to continue to dominate our country. The restoration of hope and justice starts now.

I may have put out too much hyperbole in my above post. I am just flabbergasted by what the right-wing has done, and what it gets away with in this country. Their champion is being inaugurated as I write, and they control the government. There must be an awakening for justice and truth.

[Eric the Green]

(01-19-2017, 09:42 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 02:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: After what I've seen today, on the news, and on the documentaries, it is clearer to me than ever, if that if the progressive side wishes to win, and thereby bring any progress, any solutions to our country and our world, we must be as ruthless as the other side. We cannot be nice.

Scorched earth policies, and "stealing and destroying our country", are exactly what the Democrats have been doing for 8 years.  Clinton promised to continue those policies.  Trump was just the reaction, from supporters that wanted to keep and preserve our country.

I respect your willingness to post in this forum, Warren, and there is a place for people who disagree with people like me. I pray that you will awaken to the true sources and ideas of truth and justice. The Democrats did what they could, to the best of their ability, to keep and preserve our country, and move it forward. For when it moves forward, only then does it prosper. Stagnation and enabling of greed and deception, which is what the Republicans whom you support practice, only leads to decline.

[Galen]

(01-20-2017, 09:26 AM)Odin Wrote: Sanders' biggest problem, IMO, is his background, not his policies. All they had to do would be to bring up the picture of him being buddy-buddy with the Sandinistas and he would have been screwed.

Which tells you everything you need to know about him.  He thought [url="http://generational-theory.com/forum/newreply.php?tid=538&replyto=18426]breadlines[/url] were a really good idea.

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric The Green Wrote:Of course you know, because you have been told, that the DNC did not choose Hillary; the Democratic primary voters did. Yes, I hope a better candidate runs next time whom the voters can support.

So much is true, however the DNC did much to tilt the tables as per the Wikileaks revelations.

Quote:I suspect, however, that you may not like it if the candidate is a Clinton friend, but he may just have the best horoscope score. And if so, he has the best chance to win and carry those states, and be much better than whom the Republicans run.

I don't like candidates who are in league with cheaters. It is by no accident the Debbie Washeduperman  Shulz.

A reminder if you will.

Quote:It should also be clear to you Maryposa by now, that this is the USA. To expect perfection in a country that voted for Bush and Trump, is a fool's errand. Someone like Obama is the best we can get. You can support whom you want; I have often voted Green, because I could. Still, we must deal with the country as it is. And realize what it is. It's a sobering thought, but it's better to realize it than be disappointed forever.

Not quite.  The reality is that cheaters never prosper.

[TnT]

"... cheaters never prosper."

???

In what universe is that true? Some Karmic utopia? Dear god, what is Trump if not the epitome of bullshit artist?

Oh! Oh! Sorry. I really bit on that didn't I? You were being sarcastic.

[Marypoza]

(01-20-2017, 12:31 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Of course you know, because you have been told, that the DNC did not choose Hillary

--yeah so what? Do you believe every alternative, ahem, "fact" you hear? 

Eric Wrote:the Democratic primary voters did.

-- well the ones that weren't disenfranchised or  purged from the voter rolls. Funny how those were mostly Bernie voters. Then there was the vote flipping & vote stacking.......

Eric Wrote: I hope a better candidate runs next time whom the voters can support.

-- anything would be better than those 2 pos

Quote:..... yada yada yada yada.....
It should also be clear to you Maryposa by now, that this is the USA. To expect perfection in a country that voted for Bush and Trump, is a fool's errand. Someone like Obama is the best we can get. You can support whom you want; I have often voted Green, because I could. Still, we must deal with the country as it is. And realize what it is. It's a sobering thought, but it's better to realize it than be disappointed forever.

-- l don't expect perfection. l don't expect vote tampering & election fraud either. Otherwise, it's like X sez, they may as well go back to their smoke filled room

[Eric the Green]

Candidates tend to look better when you don't see them through the eyes of conspiracy theory, and instead with facts, my friend Marypoza

[radind]

Need more dialogue, not another Civil War.

[pbrower2a]

Unfortunately with this President that we now have the dialogue reduces to "My way or the highway"... with "Hell no!" as the response.

[TeacherinExile]

James Howard Kunstler is now posting his blog twice a week--on Mondays and Fridays.  An aging Boomer and author, he reminds me of "the Crazy Uncle" who holds forth at the Thanksgiving table every year with his political rants. You want to lock him up in the attic, but he makes just enough sense (sometimes) that you keep on inviting him back.  He's entertaining, if nothing else.

His blog post today ties in with a thread that I began on the old 4T forum.  (I've since deleted it from my own files, but it basically asked the question "What Happens If the Center Does Not Hold?"  The inspiration for this thread was a book by Jonathan Alter published in the wake of Obama's re-election titled "The Center Holds," whose premise I had little faith in at the time.

Midway through, a New York Times book review summed up Alter's thesis thusly--
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/books/...alter.html

...Mr. Alter’s thesis is that the 2012 election was possibly “the most consequential” in recent times and “a hinge of history” — “a titanic ideological struggle” that put the “social contract established during the New Deal era” on the line. He readily acknowledges that he thinks the United States “dodged a bullet in 2012,” and that in re-electing Barack Obama and rejecting the Republicans’ “extremist” views, America reaffirmed its identity as an essentially “centrist nation.”

Toward the end of this volume, Mr. Alter quotes Mr. Obama telling an aide that if he lost, his presidency would be “a footnote” and that “all of the progress we made in the first four years would be reversed”; if he won, his first-term achievements would be cemented for a generation and he could move ahead on promises sidetracked by the recession...

My oh my, how quickly the pendulum swings...Not only is the political center not holding here in America, but it's melting away abroad as well.

Anyway, Kunstler writes today with an insight that's on the mark, in my opinion:

The Purpose of Decadence and the Pleasures of Coercion

I guess you’ve noticed by now that the center didn’t hold. Instead of a secure platform for political premises like tradition, precedent, rationality, and cultural norms, you see a fiery maw of sheer emotion between the camps of the so-called Left and the so-called Right.

I say so-called because the campus Left and the Trump Right have escaped the categorical corrals they formerly occupied. And they may have left their customary official parties stranded and dying too. It may be fatuous to say whether that is a good or bad thing; it just is, for the moment. They are two halves of a polity so broken and so far apart that it is also hard to see how they might ever come back together into a consensus about how a society might operate successfully...

...Both the Left and the right show not a little sadism in their methods. In the background of these histrionics, the great groaning machine of Modernity lurches toward collapse — not the end-of-the-world as many foolishly imagine, but the end of a phase of history when things that used to work, don’t. At a certain point, we’ll have to try other ways of being with each other on this planet, and then for a while things will come together again.

I ponder the events of the past week, most especially the virtual riot at UC-Berkeley, and I can't help but wonder if a cold civil war is playing out in our country--a civil war in which one side now enjoys a decided advantage...

[Eric the Green]

This is about what I predicted. We are a long way yet from seeing how it will actually play out. The "civil war" this time around is likely to center around a group of thugs putting up a determined fight against the government, but being put down in a couple of years. That's my prediction; you've heard it here many times. Whether it's a left wing or a right wing group of thugs remains to be seen. It will depend on who takes power in Nov. 2024. I'm predicting the Left will recover and take power. I hope it's not just my bias, but it could be.

In fact, if the unexpected happens and the Left wins in 2020, they could be thrown out again as early as 2024, and the civil war will therefore come from the Left. That would be too bad, from my point of view, but that's how it might play out. 4Ts feature the unexpected on occasion!

[Eric the Green]

(01-31-2017, 08:36 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Unfortunately with this President that we now have the dialogue reduces to "My way or the highway"... with "Hell no!" as the response.

Right; there is no dialogue in America anymore. And nothing much to discuss. It's a power-play from now on. The only question is which side wins. The best side is losing now; the people must reverse this.

This is the nature of the times we are in, and the cycle being played out. It would be nice if all that were not so. It would take a miracle, and deliverance from the power of cycles and the saeculum.