Are Some Haters Of Government Sensing The Looming Regeneracy?

[Kinser79]

(03-15-2017, 09:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: 2. "Jim Crow" is dead. Political reality in most of the South is that the Republican Party is the White People's Party and the Democratic Party is the Black People's Party.  Tribal slits in politics practically ensure machine government even in the tiniest of hick towns. Such ensures that government will look like the majority even if the majority is only 51% of the electorate, and that because of sure victories because of ethnic identity, corrupt and incompetent politicians can get away with corruption and incompetence indefinitely. Patronage becomes the norm. The solution for corruption and incompetence is obvious enough: vote the bums out. The right way in which to deal with corrupt black Democrats in public office is to vote for the white Republican as an alternative. The right way to deal with corrupt and incompetent white Republicans in public office should be obvious.

On Point 2, PBR, while the majority of Blacks tend to vote Dim-ocratic the Dims are not the party of black people.  While the majority of whites vote GOP the GOP is not the white party.  I can't speak for say Mississippi but in Florida blacks and whites run and win in both parties.  As for voting, one needs to periodically throw the bums out regardless their party.

Churn is better than corruption.

[pbrower2a]

(03-15-2017, 09:48 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-15-2017, 09:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: 2. "Jim Crow" is dead. Political reality in most of the South is that the Republican Party is the White People's Party and the Democratic Party is the Black People's Party.  Tribal slits in politics practically ensure machine government even in the tiniest of hick towns. Such ensures that government will look like the majority even if the majority is only 51% of the electorate, and that because of sure victories because of ethnic identity, corrupt and incompetent politicians can get away with corruption and incompetence indefinitely. Patronage becomes the norm. The solution for corruption and incompetence is obvious enough: vote the bums out. The right way in which to deal with corrupt black Democrats in public office is to vote for the white Republican as an alternative. The right way to deal with corrupt and incompetent white Republicans in public office should be obvious.

On Point 2, PBR, while the majority of Blacks tend to vote Dim-ocratic the Dims are not the party of black people.  While the majority of whites vote GOP the GOP is not the white party.  I can't speak for say Mississippi but in Florida blacks and whites run and win in both parties.  As for voting, one needs to periodically throw the bums out regardless their party.

Churn is better than corruption.

Florida is no longer a stereotypical Southern state in its politics. The state has too many Yankee transplants to be truly Southern. See also Virginia and to lesser extents Texas and North Carolina.

The bums really need to go.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-15-2017, 05:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The South is a highly segregated society, with not much economic and social mobility and very racially-stratified neighborhoods and counties. The variance in living standards and education by race is high. Response to racist dog whistles about welfare blown by Republicans results in very polarized electorates by race. Voting rights are under attack and blacks are gerrymandered out of representation. Traditional attitudes keep peoples' minds very closed off to both alternative spirituality and rational scientific approaches to understanding the world, preferring to uphold superstitions like creationism, and making homosexuality and abortion issues central to voting preferences. Living standards and health and happiness levels are lower than the rest of the country. No, Dixie is still Dixie.

Uh, Eric;  Please, come to Oklahoma.   Again, Oklahoma does have Native American "concerns" happen to center and come to the center.   Our civilized tribes know what going downed. I'm one of those tribes , Cherokee, who think , assorted "whiteys" think are at one with the  civilized folks, are OK., right?   Now, 'll tell y'all this.  Any Native American folks got screwed.Of course...  your're'rreight when it cojmes to us "half breeds"s we know very well , our ancestry,  but vote for the stuff which is not right.  Yes, not rights, because we've vbeen scwreed, by the MIC|.

See, Eirc, I wish, I may, I wish, I knew, the 223andme knows, the truth, for Rag's'  ancestry, of  Nordic, N Agriccran, and  American, Rag's is nantion wide.

[Kinser79]

(03-15-2017, 11:00 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-15-2017, 09:48 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-15-2017, 09:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: 2. "Jim Crow" is dead. Political reality in most of the South is that the Republican Party is the White People's Party and the Democratic Party is the Black People's Party.  Tribal slits in politics practically ensure machine government even in the tiniest of hick towns. Such ensures that government will look like the majority even if the majority is only 51% of the electorate, and that because of sure victories because of ethnic identity, corrupt and incompetent politicians can get away with corruption and incompetence indefinitely. Patronage becomes the norm. The solution for corruption and incompetence is obvious enough: vote the bums out. The right way in which to deal with corrupt black Democrats in public office is to vote for the white Republican as an alternative. The right way to deal with corrupt and incompetent white Republicans in public office should be obvious.

On Point 2, PBR, while the majority of Blacks tend to vote Dim-ocratic the Dims are not the party of black people.  While the majority of whites vote GOP the GOP is not the white party.  I can't speak for say Mississippi but in Florida blacks and whites run and win in both parties.  As for voting, one needs to periodically throw the bums out regardless their party.

Churn is better than corruption.

Florida is no longer a stereotypical Southern state in its politics. The state has too many Yankee transplants to be truly Southern. See also Virginia and to lesser extents Texas and North Carolina.

The bums really need to go.

Actually that has nothing to do with it.  By the same logic Georgia is not a stereotypical Southern State, nor is Tennessee, South Carolina (which is heavily black and has lots of Black politicians--many of them Black Republicans but not so many Yankees).

This being the case, is it possible that your idea of what constitutes a stereotypical Southern State is in fact frozen in time?  Honestly when was the last time you were even in the South?  Much less even lived there. 

The typical Yankee (and I've lived in the Midwest as well as the South and been stationed in both the North East and Commiefornia) see a confederate flags and thinks there still are Bull Connors running around. [Are there still racists running around?  Yeah, but they're in the North too.] This is not the case, we have many black legislators and elected officials.  In the main that flag issue simply had not been addressed prior to say 2011 because we had bigger fish to fry.  In some cases changing the state flag to remove it or remove it from the capitol building was actually voted down (with some Black support) because it was viewed as a waste of legislative time when other issues needed addressing.

This is the thing that I know you and Odin both don't get, PBR, (Eric doesn't get it either but he has sporadic contact with reality at the best of times) Blacks are not a monolithic group.  Not all of us believe the same things, not all of us vote the same way, and certainly not all of us belong to the same party.  And we certainly don't vote for people on the basis of being black (well the smart ones of us anyway--stupid people tend to vote stupidly due to stupidity).

And for the record unlike Reagan I didn't leave the Dimocratic party.  I was never part of it to start with.  I just registered that way due to FL being a closed primary state.  I could have just as easily registered GOP and in fact am likely to switch parties before the 2018 mid-terms.

[pbrower2a]

Unless it involves reenactments or honoring the Confederate dead, what else could a Confederate flag mean?

Proud to be white?

If one is proud to be from the South, then one could just as easily have a state flag. "I'm proud to be from Alabama"is neutral". The flag of the defense of slavery and Jim Crow is not neutral.

What can I assume when I see a Nazi or Soviet flag? One believes in the ideology!

[FLBones]

Confederate flag is a representation of southern heritage.

[Kinser79]

(03-16-2017, 08:58 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Unless it involves reenactments or honoring the Confederate dead, what else could a Confederate flag mean?

Proud to be white?

If one is proud to be from the South, then one could just as easily have a state flag. "I'm proud to be from Alabama"is neutral". The flag of the defense of slavery and Jim Crow is not neutral.

What can I assume when I see a Nazi or Soviet flag? One believes in the ideology!

Personally I don't care for that flag.  However, when you have only so many legislative days to get your work done what flag flies over the capitol building takes lower order of precedence.

As for Jim Crow he's dead.  He's been dead for over 40 years now.  Seriously you're in a bigger time warp than Cuba.

Unlike the Nazi flag or the Soviet one the so-called Confederate flag is a battle flag for the Army of Northern Virginia.  I'm not sure it even represents an ideology at all unless it is one imposed on it after the fact.  That still doesn't mean it is an issue that should take center stage when there are other more important issues at stake like whose road gets paved or where to build a school.

Sorry but when it comes to frying fish a smart cook starts with the big ones first--they take longer.

[Kinser79]

(03-16-2017, 09:43 AM)FLBones Wrote: Confederate flag is a representation of southern heritage.

Well for some Southerners we'd prefer if we didn't have that heritage.

That said this should trigger the snowflakes.


   

[Eric the Green]

(03-16-2017, 09:43 AM)FLBones Wrote: Confederate flag is a representation of southern heritage.

Its heritage of hatred.

[Bob Butler 54]

The Battle Flag is a symbol which means different things to different people.  Alas, this is so at a values level.  Few change their mind as to what it might mean, at least until someone wades through a black church shooting.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-16-2017, 04:07 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The Battle Flag is a symbol which means different things to different people.  Alas, this is so at a values level.  Few change their mind as to what it might mean, at least until someone wades through a black church shooting.

I don't think those folks were killed because of a flag.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-16-2017, 05:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 04:07 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The Battle Flag is a symbol which means different things to different people.  Alas, this is so at a values level.  Few change their mind as to what it might mean, at least until someone wades through a black church shooting.

I don't think those folks were killed because of a flag.

Some of the values which some of the people associate with the flag had a lot to do with it.  Of course, making the flag go away won't kill the values, but flaunting the values doesn't help.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-15-2017, 11:36 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-15-2017, 05:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The South is a highly segregated society, with not much economic and social mobility and very racially-stratified neighborhoods and counties. The variance in living standards and education by race is high. Response to racist dog whistles about welfare blown by Republicans results in very polarized electorates by race. Voting rights are under attack and blacks are gerrymandered out of representation. Traditional attitudes keep peoples' minds very closed off to both alternative spirituality and rational scientific approaches to understanding the world, preferring to uphold superstitions like creationism, and making homosexuality and abortion issues central to voting preferences. Living standards and health and happiness levels are lower than the rest of the country. No, Dixie is still Dixie.

Uh, Eric;  Please, come to Oklahoma.   Again, Oklahoma does have Native American "concerns" happen to center and come to the center.   Our civilized tribes know what going downed. I'm one of those tribes , Cherokee, who think , assorted "whiteys" think are at one with the  civilized folks, are OK., right?   Now, 'll tell y'all this.  Any Native American folks got screwed.Of course...  your're'rreight when it cojmes to us "half breeds"s we know very well , our ancestry,  but vote for the stuff which is not right.  Yes, not rights, because we've vbeen scwreed, by the MIC|.

See, Eirc, I wish, I may, I wish, I knew, the 223andme knows, the truth, for Rag's'  ancestry, of  Nordic, N Agriccran, and  American, Rag's is nantion wide.

Sooner or later, red lives could matter just as much, if not more (depending on the amount of money that the so-called Native American community is able to raise collectively as a group and donate to the Democrats and the size of the Native American voting) than black lives ( excluding black Trump supporters and black Republican voters/conservatives) seem to matter to the liberals these days.

[Eric the Green]

Red lives matter, indeed. They already do to liberals. That's why we oppose the Dakota Access Pipeline, which poisons and desecrates Native American land and water.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-16-2017, 05:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 05:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 04:07 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The Battle Flag is a symbol which means different things to different people.  Alas, this is so at a values level.  Few change their mind as to what it might mean, at least until someone wades through a black church shooting.

I don't think those folks were killed because of a flag.

Some of the values which some of the people associate with the flag had a lot to do with it.  Of course, making the flag go away won't kill the values, but flaunting the values doesn't help.

I think an association with a burning cross or a Nazi flag had more to with it than the Confederate flag myself. Making a flag go away and insulting southerners for being southerners ain't going to kill/eliminate the people who are willing to wade through a black church shooting or change the negative views that a majority of southerners and a large chunk of northerners have of blues/liberals either. If you can handle living with radical Muslims blowing up you're marathon and a Radical Muslim wading through American nightclub or a social gathering shooting without any reservations and concerns, you should be able to handle someone wading through a black church shooting without any reservations and concerns too. You're right, values or the lack of values as they pertain to certain people or groups of people as I see it, has something to do with it.

[Kinser79]

(03-16-2017, 06:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think an association with a burning cross or a Nazi flag had more to with it than the Confederate flag myself. Making a flag go away and insulting southerners for being southerners ain't going to kill/eliminate the people who are willing to wade through a black church shooting or change the negative views that a majority of southerners and a large chunk of northerners have of blues/liberals either. If you can handle living with radical Muslims blowing up you're marathon and a Radical Muslim wading through American nightclub or a social gathering shooting without any reservations and concerns, you should be able to handle someone wading through a black church shooting without any reservations and concerns too. You're right, values or the lack of values as they pertain to certain people or groups of people as I see it, has something to do with it.

Pretty much this. 

And this is a contradiction that the left can't account for.  Given the choice between the Klan or Neo-Nazi skinheads and Muslim Terrorists I'll take the former.  At least other white people hate the Klansmen an Neo-Nazi scum.  With Muslims, yeah maybe 5% do the terrorism, the other 95% just provide material aid and comfort to that 5%.

[Bob Butler 54]

I’m used to taking the label of ‘Whig’.  I have my arrow of progress.  I favor democracy, human rights and equality.  I see what advancing technology has done for us, but look to change society to adapt to the new environment technology gives us.  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.  There is a pride in being an American, and a Whig.  America was indeed great, until about Nixon’s time when the optimism and energy that created the greatness burned out.

But in doing all that, we stepped on people, we and similar European cultures.  There were black slaves.  There were Native Americans taken from the woods and planted in the deserts.  There were Arabs living on top of a lot of oil, and the West grew rich and powerful on that oil, while the locals grew to hate us.

I find it awfully easy to understand any hatred and violence aimed in our direction.  We took so much.

I also hear slogans like ‘America First’.  We seized a prominent place in the world and are striving to keep it.  I see people waving Nazi and Confederate flags, expressing pride in the horrific past.  And those who were down, and make no mistake many of them are still down, should not be helped.  If one tries in any way to make amends for an unspeakable past, one is accused of betraying one’s race.  

I am not pleased with this.  As proud as I am of how Jefferson’s self evident truths brought something truly new out of the tyranny of the Agricultural Age, we got there walking all over people.  We are striving still to walk over them more.

Too many are excessively fond of our privileged place in the world, have become totally accustomed to this place, and will apply all sorts of upside down double think to excuse their efforts to maintain their privileged place.

I find it all to easy to understand the hate coming from the cultures exploited, still exploited.  It’s not harder to understand those wallowing in the wealth and the privilege.  They are so used to it.  Their arrogant belief in their exalted place in the world is deeply ingrained, unquestionable.  Yes, it’s values locked in.  Folks can look in their fancy gilt mirrors and not see themselves.

There’s a fuse burning.  My instinct is to throw water on it, not gasoline.  Being into turning theory, that’s probably the wrong answer.  There will likely need to be an explosion.

But there is that niggling arrow of progress.  Come the crisis, when the problems become too deep to be ignored, the solutions tend towards working for the common good, towards equality, towards democracy, towards inclusiveness.  I accuse others often enough of being values locked.  Me too.  I have that silly stubborn faith in Jefferson’s self evident truths.  When the crisis comes, I remain dubious that shutting the doors so one’s own cultural group can keep its privileged place in the world will be the answer.

[Kinser79]

If I may interject here in your lamenting. Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no. While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness. As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

Quote:America was indeed great, until about Nixon’s time when the optimism and energy that created the greatness burned out.

I think part of that has to do with the fact that the GIs themselves were burned out. The Silents may have had the desire to continue but didn't have the numbers, and the Boomers were busy tearing down everything in sight.

Quote:But in doing all that, we stepped on people, we and similar European cultures.  There were black slaves.

Yeah slavery was bad. It was the US along with Britain that ended the Slave trade and exerted pressure to end Slavery in the west. Slavery still exists though in Africa and until recently the Middle East.

Quote: There were Native Americans taken from the woods and planted in the deserts.

I know you like self-flagellation, I suspect Christianity is the cause of it, but America isn't the only society that committed genocide, and won't be the last. Yeah it was bad but the people who were victims and the people who did the victimizing are all dead.

Quote:  There were Arabs living on top of a lot of oil, and the West grew rich and powerful on that oil, while the locals grew to hate us.

Yes and no. I think the Arabs hate America because we put military bases on their soil. They don't hate us for our freedoms they hate us for our proximity. Indeed if we weren't there they'd be fighting each other.

Quote:I also hear slogans like ‘America First’.  We seized a prominent place in the world and are striving to keep it.

As we should being the dominant power on a continent, controlling at least 1/3rd of that continent. I think Americans should put America first just like I think Brazilians should put Brazil first, or Chinese should put China first. One cannot help anyone else if they do not first help themselves.

Quote:  I see people waving Nazi and Confederate flags, expressing pride in the horrific past.

I see confederate flags occasionally but I've never seen anyone outside of a handful of Neo-Nazi scum fly a Swastika flag.

Quote: And those who were down, and make no mistake many of them are still down, should not be helped.  If one tries in any way to make amends for an unspeakable past, one is accused of betraying one’s race.  

Have you ever stopped to consider that those people who are "down" do not want or do not need y'all's help? What they need is the opportunity to make of themselves whatever they can make of themselves. The role of the state is not to make a level playing field, even in a state with only one race and one culture there will not be a level playing field--because people are all different with different abilities and so on. Instead the role of the state is to clear away all the refuse and allow people to play the game.

Quote:I am not pleased with this.  As proud as I am of how Jefferson’s self evident truths brought something truly new out of the tyranny of the Agricultural Age, we got there walking all over people.  We are striving still to walk over them more.

If you all want a plate of scrambled eggs or an omelette you can't really give a shit over the eggs you have to take from the hen or the milk to from the cow to make butter and that doesn't even get into what happens to the pig for spam or bacon.

Quote:I find it all to easy to understand the hate coming from the cultures exploited, still exploited.

I would like to know who is still being exploited in the US. In what way is "I'll give you money if you do X" exploitation?

Most of the hate these days come from people who are complaining about not having anything to complain about. Hence why they are mocked and called snowflakes--among other things.

Quote:There’s a fuse burning.  My instinct is to throw water on it, not gasoline.  Being into turning theory, that’s probably the wrong answer.  There will likely need to be an explosion.

If it is a 4T and a fuse is burning you need to be pouring gasoline all around the place. Throwing water on the fire or fuse at this point only prolongs the inevitable and makes things worse in the long run.

Quote: When the crisis comes, I remain dubious that shutting the doors so one’s own cultural group can keep its privileged place in the world will be the answer.

The crisis is here and I'm dubious as to the wisdom of allowing in a flood of foreigners who may or may not have the society's best interests in mind. If anything we have too many cultures and too many factions competing...we need time for them to be absorbed into the alloy. Failing this we will end up with a giant mess.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I’m used to taking the label of ‘Whig’.  I have my arrow of progress.  I favor democracy, human rights and equality.  I see what advancing technology has done for us, but look to change society to adapt to the new environment technology gives us.  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.  There is a pride in being an American, and a Whig.  America was indeed great, until about Nixon’s time when the optimism and energy that created the greatness burned out.

But in doing all that, we stepped on people, we and similar European cultures.  There were black slaves.  There were Native Americans taken from the woods and planted in the deserts.  There were Arabs living on top of a lot of oil, and the West grew rich and powerful on that oil, while the locals grew to hate us.

I find it awfully easy to understand any hatred and violence aimed in our direction.  We took so much.

I also hear slogans like ‘America First’.  We seized a prominent place in the world and are striving to keep it.  I see people waving Nazi and Confederate flags, expressing pride in the horrific past.  And those who were down, and make no mistake many of them are still down, should not be helped.  If one tries in any way to make amends for an unspeakable past, one is accused of betraying one’s race.  

I am not pleased with this.  As proud as I am of how Jefferson’s self evident truths brought something truly new out of the tyranny of the Agricultural Age, we got there walking all over people.  We are striving still to walk over them more.

Too many are excessively fond of our privileged place in the world, have become totally accustomed to this place, and will apply all sorts of upside down double think to excuse their efforts to maintain their privileged place.

I find it all to easy to understand the hate coming from the cultures exploited, still exploited.  It’s not harder to understand those wallowing in the wealth and the privilege.  They are so used to it.  Their arrogant belief in their exalted place in the world is deeply ingrained, unquestionable.  Yes, it’s values locked in.  Folks can look in their fancy gilt mirrors and not see themselves.

There’s a fuse burning.  My instinct is to throw water on it, not gasoline.  Being into turning theory, that’s probably the wrong answer.  There will likely need to be an explosion.

But there is that niggling arrow of progress.  Come the crisis, when the problems become too deep to be ignored, the solutions tend towards working for the common good, towards equality, towards democracy, towards inclusiveness.  I accuse others often enough of being values locked.  Me too.  I have that silly stubborn faith in Jefferson’s self evident truths.  When the crisis comes, I remain dubious that shutting the doors so one’s own cultural group can keep its privileged place in the world will be the answer.

I've yet to see a liberal Democrat who'd I'd be willing to place my life on line or sacrifice something of great personal value to save. I will also add, I've yet to see a liberal Democrat who'd I trust with my life or anything great of personal value or anything important to me. I say screw the Democrats and screw them big time. You better be smart enough to realize if we end up fighting with groups of ISIS here because of liberal politics, the Democratic party and all its stupidity will come to an abrupt end. How much are your political values worth to you, blues in general and everyone else here? Blue values, as I've seen them, ain't worth a shit to me or anyone else who isn't emotionally tied to them. I understand that blues place a ton of value on themselves and their beliefs and whatever values that they claim to represent for reasons that I don't understand or relate too. I assume it has something to do with their degree's or job titles or possibly spending too much time listening/taking in the beliefs of their loving blue parents or their supportive blue peers. How many Americans want to live in a liberal blue can't do/say shit culture controlled by PC labeling? Can you bitch about anything other than conservatives/reds/Republicans/libertarians in Blue America? Can you bitch about a nasty group of blacks who reside in Blue America? Can you bitch about having to many illegal aliens to support in Blue America? Can you openly bitch about anything liberal without concerns about themselves? Can you protest against stupid liberal policies in Blue America? We can bitch anything and anyone or any group in Red America. It doesn't matter who you are in Red America, Red Americans can bitch about you in public and in private (face to face). Reds don't care as much about race, class or gender as the blues seem too. No free passes in Red America. We stuck a towel in the mouths of the Evangelical's. As it turned out, the Republican voters aren't as heavily into religion as the liberal's seemed to believe.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.