Are Some Haters Of Government Sensing The Looming Regeneracy?

[Kinser79]

(03-17-2017, 04:00 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 01:49 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 11:23 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: Which departments would you gut?

I'd actually start with some supposedly national defense stand alone agencies.  Namely the NSA and the CIA (both are a pit of vipers and have been hated for a long time, going back to the 1T).

After that I'd start with EPA, Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Homeland security (It duplicates the DOD in many cases--other issues can be shipped off to the treasury and like most things Boomer made is a giant cluster fuck),  

I would combine the Departments of Labor, Commerce, Agriculture into a new Department of Economic Affairs.

In short if I find a department I want to cut it.

As for the military I'd slash the army to the bone and close down hundreds if not thousands of foreign bases.  We're bordered by a country whose army consists of two Mounties and a dog on the north, and a country with no military tradition on the south and to the east and west by fish so for defense we need a strong navy and strong air force.  Anyone stupid enough to start a war can be dealt with by conscription.

And for the love of god I'd put a no vacancy sign on the boarders (and ports of entry).  My views on immigration aren't much different from Bill Cutting's.  Just change Irish to Mexicans.





Note in the film it is also a 4T.

Of course you want to gut the CIA. After all, they helped keep Western freedom safe for decades. Western freedom = bad, anti-Western "multi polar" world (with a defanged West cowering in the corner) = good, right?

We need the CIA like a sixth hole in the head.  Overthrowing foreign governments, starting wars of choice, training terrorists here and there to strike back at America, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't off the last Great President we had in Dallas in 1963.

They are a pit of vipers, a pit of venomous serpents seeking only to destroy the last remnants of our once great republic.

Inb4 Alphabet here accuses me of being a Russian agent.

[Eric the Green]

Thank goodness kinser is not in power, so it makes no difference what he "would do."

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-17-2017, 04:15 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:00 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 01:49 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 11:23 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: Which departments would you gut?

I'd actually start with some supposedly national defense stand alone agencies.  Namely the NSA and the CIA (both are a pit of vipers and have been hated for a long time, going back to the 1T).

After that I'd start with EPA, Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Homeland security (It duplicates the DOD in many cases--other issues can be shipped off to the treasury and like most things Boomer made is a giant cluster fuck),  

I would combine the Departments of Labor, Commerce, Agriculture into a new Department of Economic Affairs.

In short if I find a department I want to cut it.

As for the military I'd slash the army to the bone and close down hundreds if not thousands of foreign bases.  We're bordered by a country whose army consists of two Mounties and a dog on the north, and a country with no military tradition on the south and to the east and west by fish so for defense we need a strong navy and strong air force.  Anyone stupid enough to start a war can be dealt with by conscription.

And for the love of god I'd put a no vacancy sign on the boarders (and ports of entry).  My views on immigration aren't much different from Bill Cutting's.  Just change Irish to Mexicans.





Note in the film it is also a 4T.

Of course you want to gut the CIA. After all, they helped keep Western freedom safe for decades. Western freedom = bad, anti-Western "multi polar" world (with a defanged West cowering in the corner) = good, right?

We need the CIA like a sixth hole in the head.  Overthrowing foreign governments, starting wars of choice, training terrorists here and there to strike back at America, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't off the last Great President we had in Dallas in 1963.

They are a pit of vipers, a pit of venomous serpents seeking only to destroy the last remnants of our once great republic.

Inb4 Alphabet here accuses me of being a Russian agent.

I would not gut the EPA or anything that would build mass transit.  I'd add Fannie MAE/Freddie MAC.  House buying is not a legit government project. Those 2 monstrosities need to be wound down and shut down.  I would gut the DEA,  To clarify on the CIA, no more domestic spying!

Snakepit is correct, just look at all of this shit.

Rags wants more butter and far fewer guns.

[Kinser79]

Rags....

You want Mass Transit? Leave that to the states and to the cities. Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.

I'd include Fannie and Freddie. There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too. An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

[Eric the Green]

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Careful with Kinser, Rags. He is a reactionary, and does not have the peoples' or even his own interests at heart.

[pbrower2a]

I'd like to shut down the Department of Homeland Security. If there ever were to be a secret police agency operating in America, then it would be located in DHS. The FBI, the Marshals' Service, and the BATF are effective enough as it is.

Yes, Eric -- Kinser has gone from revolutionary to reactionary in seemingly two shakes of a puppy-dog's tail; in that I sense the delicate aroma of skunk spray.

[pbrower2a]

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Is there any question that the fossil-fuels industry has its hooks deep into President Trump?

[Kinser79]

(03-18-2017, 12:27 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Careful with Kinser, Rags. He is a reactionary, and does not have the peoples' or even his own interests at heart.

I think Rags can make up his own mind.

(03-18-2017, 01:10 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I'd like to shut down the Department of Homeland Security. If there ever were to be a secret police agency operating in America, then it would be located in DHS. The FBI, the Marshals' Service, and the BATF are effective enough as it is.

Yes, Eric -- Kinser has gone from revolutionary to reactionary in seemingly two shakes of a puppy-dog's tail; in that I sense the delicate aroma of skunk spray.

The main problem with DHS is that it is a giant cluster fuck, and has been since day one. I'm less concerned with the FBI and Marshals than I am the other agencies. The Secret Service should be returned to Treasury since besides protecting dignitaries their man function is to investigate and apprehend counterfeiters of the currency. The BATF really has no purpose since Prohibition was repealed.

I'm surprised at your view PBR. I thought you subscribed to the horseshoe theory of politics.

(03-18-2017, 01:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Is there any question that the fossil-fuels industry has its hooks deep into President Trump?

I don't think it matters. Let us just suppose we could convert to all renewable electricity generation tomorrow. We'd still need fossil fuels to make and install all those solar panels and windmills and then we'd still need oil to transport them around to the instillation sites and that's assuming we don't need oil for the plastics to make them to start with.

The fact of the matter is if one wants to actually be "green" they need to think less of gimmicky products and gadgets and more along the lines of driving less, using less, and doing without more. The latter is a much harder sell.

[pbrower2a]

(03-18-2017, 01:58 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: pbrower2aI'd like to shut down the Department of Homeland Security. If there ever were to be a secret police agency operating in America, then it would be located in DHS. The FBI, the Marshals' Service, and the BATF are effective enough as it is.
[quote pid='23765' dateline='1489817418']

Yes, Eric -- Kinser has gone from revolutionary to reactionary in seemingly two shakes of a puppy-dog's tail; in that I sense the delicate aroma of skunk spray.

The main problem with DHS is that it is a giant cluster fuck, and has been since day one.  I'm less concerned with the FBI and Marshals than I am the other agencies.  The Secret Service should be returned to Treasury since besides protecting dignitaries their man function is to investigate and apprehend counterfeiters of the currency.  The BATF really has no purpose since Prohibition was repealed.

I'm surprised at your view PBR.  I thought you subscribed to the horseshoe theory of politics.
[/quote]

The Secret Service has the responsibility of protecting the life of the President. Thus if someone angrily but with a BAC above the limit for driving a motor vehicle proclaims that someone ought to shoot the President, maybe the Secret Service will have someone visit him and give him an explanation of why even the expression of such an idea is a bad thing to do for personal comfort.  It is still within the Treasury Department.

I forgot to mention that the Coast Guard has responsibility for law enforcement on the seas and some inland waterways, including the Great Lakes.

BATF exists for the enforcement of tax laws on alcohol and cancerweed, and of sundry laws involving firearms.

Secret police? KGB, Gestapo, Mukhabarat, Ovra, Kempeitai, BOSS, Mississippi Sovereignty Commission... it's all un-American.

(03-18-2017, 01:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Is there any question that the fossil-fuels industry has its hooks deep into President Trump?

Quote:I don't think it matters.  Let us just suppose we could convert to all renewable electricity generation tomorrow.  We'd still need fossil fuels to make and install all those solar panels and windmills and then we'd still need oil to transport them around to the instillation sites and that's assuming we don't need oil for the plastics to make them to start with.

The fact of the matter is if one wants to actually be "green" they need to think less of gimmicky products and gadgets and more along the lines of driving less, using less, and doing without more.  The latter is a much harder sell.

I'm sure that horses were used in the installation of John D. Rockefeller's pipelines. Farmers have been using windmills for centuries, and not only in America. Solar panels? The Old Order Amish can use them for generating energy for refrigerators and freezers. Big energy does not want to lose its control of the market.  

President Trump seems to want to destroy Amtrak, a civilized way to get around America. I'd love to take the Denver-San Francisco route again. Superb scenery!  And I wouldn't need to dodge some horrible drivers. Considering that there are people who cannot drive cars and are scared of airplanes... what are they to do? Get a horse?

[Kinser79]

(03-18-2017, 02:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-18-2017, 01:58 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: pbrower2aI'd like to shut down the Department of Homeland Security. If there ever were to be a secret police agency operating in America, then it would be located in DHS. The FBI, the Marshals' Service, and the BATF are effective enough as it is.
[quote pid='23765' dateline='1489817418']

Yes, Eric -- Kinser has gone from revolutionary to reactionary in seemingly two shakes of a puppy-dog's tail; in that I sense the delicate aroma of skunk spray.

The main problem with DHS is that it is a giant cluster fuck, and has been since day one.  I'm less concerned with the FBI and Marshals than I am the other agencies.  The Secret Service should be returned to Treasury since besides protecting dignitaries their man function is to investigate and apprehend counterfeiters of the currency.  The BATF really has no purpose since Prohibition was repealed.

I'm surprised at your view PBR.  I thought you subscribed to the horseshoe theory of politics.

The Secret Service has the responsibility of protecting the life of the President. Thus if someone angrily but with a BAC above the limit for driving a motor vehicle proclaims that someone ought to shoot the President, maybe the Secret Service will have someone visit him and give him an explanation of why even the expression of such an idea is a bad thing to do for personal comfort.  It is still within the Treasury Department.

I forgot to mention that the Coast Guard has responsibility for law enforcement on the seas and some inland waterways, including the Great Lakes.

BATF exists for the enforcement of tax laws on alcohol and cancerweed, and of sundry laws involving firearms.

Secret police? KGB, Gestapo, Mukhabarat, Ovra, Kempeitai, BOSS, Mississippi Sovereignty Commission... it's all un-American.

(03-18-2017, 01:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Is there any question that the fossil-fuels industry has its hooks deep into President Trump?

Quote:I don't think it matters.  Let us just suppose we could convert to all renewable electricity generation tomorrow.  We'd still need fossil fuels to make and install all those solar panels and windmills and then we'd still need oil to transport them around to the instillation sites and that's assuming we don't need oil for the plastics to make them to start with.

The fact of the matter is if one wants to actually be "green" they need to think less of gimmicky products and gadgets and more along the lines of driving less, using less, and doing without more.  The latter is a much harder sell.

I'm sure that horses were used in the installation of John D. Rockefeller's pipelines. Farmers have been using windmills for centuries, and not only in America. Solar panels? The Old Order Amish can use them for generating energy for refrigerators and freezers. Big energy does not want to lose its control of the market.  

President Trump seems to want to destroy Amtrak, a civilized way to get around America. I'd love to take the Denver-San Francisco route again. Superb scenery!  And I wouldn't need to dodge some horrible drivers. Considering that there are people who cannot drive cars and are scared of airplanes... what are they to do? Get a horse?
[/quote]

1.   You may want to consult Wikipedia PBR.  The US Secret Service has been under the auspices of DHS since 2003.

2.  The US Coast Guard also needs to be transfered back to the Department of Transportation.  While they do some law enforcement, mostly they rescue people lost at sea in territorial waters and near by international waters.

3.  The BATF needs to be broken up and its various duties either abolished or subsumed in an other department.  The problem with a lot of federal agencies is that they are overly redundant.

4.  Both the NSA and CIA are actively spying on US citizens as you'd know if you left the fake news bubbles surrounding CNN, MSDNC and so on.  They need to be abolished completely.  If we need military intelligence I'm sure that the military can take care of that with less fuss and muss.

5.  It isn't the 1800s anymore.  Simply put outside of the Old Order Amish no one has enough horses, let alone enough horses of the right type (not all horses are the same, you don't use a high strung thoroughbred for children's pony rides for example) to be very useful in installing and transporting these windmills and solar panels.

5b.  I have this strange feeling that you've never actually ridden a horse before, particularly not for an extended period of time.  I have.  There is a reason that cowboys are depicted as walking bowlegged in old films.  It is also the same reason that riding a horse was less common than hitching it to a buggy or wagon.

6.  The construction of windmills requires steel which unless you want to deforest the continent, more than it has been already, requires burning coal--more specifically a refined coal product called coke.

7.  Even if we don't have to use oil to make the plastics for these windmills and solar panels (which is unlikely) we will still have to use fossil fuels to run the factories to make them.  Refining the silicon for solar panels requires a great deal of electricity.

8.  Trump's budget would mean cuts on a lot of long distance Amtrak routes.  Routes that are not profitable.  Myself I think Amtrak should be privatized entirely.  Seriously anything the private sector does poorly the public sector does it even less well.  The government is the people that have brought you such wonders of customer service as the DMV.

9.  You're also forgetting that his budget blueprint is a proposal.  The House is the one still passing the budgets in this country.  Something called Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 of the US Constitution.

[pbrower2a]

[quote pid='23777' dateline='1489825921']
1.   You may want to consult Wikipedia PBR.  The US Secret Service has been under the auspices of DHS since 2003.

2.  The US Coast Guard also needs to be transfered back to the Department of Transportation.  While they do some law enforcement, mostly they rescue people lost at sea in territorial waters and near by international waters.

3.  The BATF needs to be broken up and its various duties either abolished or subsumed in an other department.  The problem with a lot of federal agencies is that they are overly redundant.

4.  Both the NSA and CIA are actively spying on US citizens as you'd know if you left the fake news bubbles surrounding CNN, MSDNC and so on.  They need to be abolished completely.  If we need military intelligence I'm sure that the military can take care of that with less fuss and muss.

5.  It isn't the 1800s anymore.  Simply put outside of the Old Order Amish no one has enough horses, let alone enough horses of the right type (not all horses are the same, you don't use a high strung thoroughbred for children's pony rides for example) to be very useful in installing and transporting these windmills and solar panels.

5b.  I have this strange feeling that you've never actually ridden a horse before, particularly not for an extended period of time.  I have.  There is a reason that cowboys are depicted as walking bowlegged in old films.  It is also the same reason that riding a horse was less common than hitching it to a buggy or wagon.

6.  The construction of windmills requires steel which unless you want to deforest the continent, more than it has been already, requires burning coal--more specifically a refined coal product called coke.

7.  Even if we don't have to use oil to make the plastics for these windmills and solar panels (which is unlikely) we will still have to use fossil fuels to run the factories to make them.  Refining the silicon for solar panels requires a great deal of electricity.

8.  Trump's budget would mean cuts on a lot of long distance Amtrak routes.  Routes that are not profitable.  Myself I think Amtrak should be privatized entirely.  Seriously anything the private sector does poorly the public sector does it even less well.  The government is the people that have brought you such wonders of customer service as the DMV.

9.  You're also forgetting that his budget blueprint is a proposal.  The House is the one still passing the budgets in this country.  Something called Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 of the US Constitution.
[/quote]

1, 2 -- those agencies would be transferred back.

3. Not being involved in alcohol except as a slight drinker, or either tobacco or firearms at all, I have nothing to fear from BATF.

4. The CIA is no better than the Administration of the time. NSA? Likewise. Donald Trump is simply awful.

5. "Get a horse!" is an archaic expression from the time when the early automobiles were unreliable and the muddy, rutted paths of the time were even more unreliable.  5b. Irrelevant.

6. Concern troll stuff. Energy-saving equipment requires energy to build or make.

7. Eventually the factories will be run by solar power. Yes, extraction of silicon from sand is exemplifies a strongly endothermic process, but many objects that rely upon silicon chips can do much more with less. That's one way to cut energy use.

8. Amtrak does not get anything like the subsidies that air travel gets.

9. Considering that the GOP gave lockstep opposition to Obama and has a Republican President with whom it agrees on most critical issues... I expect cooperation by Congress much like that of the parliament of China. The legislative branch of government is a sick joke in a dictatorship.

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Does anybody on board here really think that the days of our auto-centric culture are about numbered? This theory has been floated around from time to time even since the long gasoline lines of 1973-74. But not much has changed since, and if anything we have, with the exception of in a few large older cities, become even more auto dependent since then. I believe our love affair with the auto will have to end, but as I am now 72, I don't expect it to happen while I am still alive.

[beechnut79]

(03-18-2017, 01:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Is there any question that the fossil-fuels industry has its hooks deep into President Trump?

Well, both Bushes, father and son, were oil men themselves. I would like to believe that the 4T is a time when, as we look over the aspects of ourselves that we find valuable, we will inevitably uncover new qualities that are worth nurturning. Let's hope that they will be those that benefit the whole society and not just the top few percent.

[Kinser79]

Since we have broken tags:  

PBR Wrote:1, 2 -- those agencies would be transferred back.

They shouldn't have been transfered to start with, indeed there was no need for a "department of homeland security" anyway.  We already had one.  It is called the department of defense.  Of course this is a position I have had since 2001.

Quote:3. Not being involved in alcohol except as a slight drinker, or either tobacco or firearms at all, I have nothing to fear from BATF.

A.  The ATF usually doesn't harass alcohol drinkers.  Just don't start homebrewing beer or they will harass you.
B.  If you're not already nicotine dependent, don't become nicotine dependent.  The FDA (an other federal organization I'd love nothing more than to dissolve) is working over time to prohibit vaping because people aren't smoking and aren't dying and also aren't paying Big Tobacco's portion on the tobacco bonds.
C.  Thanks for letting us known you're unarmed.  The BATF usually doesn't bother people who have guns unless the fact that they do have guns is the only thing the government has on them.  They are an agency of last resort harassment from the feds.

Quote:4. The CIA is no better than the Administration of the time. NSA? Likewise. Donald Trump is simply awful.

By that logic Obama was awful too.  As was every President since FDR.

Quote:5. "Get a horse!" is an archaic expression from the time when the early automobiles were unreliable and the muddy, rutted paths of the time were even more unreliable.  5b. Irrelevant.

I was pointing out the stupidity of your argument that we could use horses to install this renewable infrastructure grid.  5b.  Is hardly irrelevant.  I was pointing out your ignorance regarding horses in general.  For the record my experiences with them are primarily a direct result of the BF wanting to have a "real cowboy experience" or whatever about eight or nine years ago.  Needless to say if he ever wants to do that again he can do it by himself.  When I was a kid and worked off and on for farmers we all used trucks, atvs and other motorized equipment.

Quote:6. Concern troll stuff. Energy-saving equipment requires energy to build or make.

Of course it does which is why any attempt to get off fossil fuels requires them.  There is a reason why we're still using those fuels and it isn't "hurr big business".  It is the rate of return on energy.  

Quote:7. Eventually the factories will be run by solar power. Yes, extraction of silicon from sand is exemplifies a strongly endothermic process, but many objects that rely upon silicon chips can do much more with less. That's one way to cut energy use.

If you're speaking of electronics?  Actually we're coming up with ways to use more and more electricity with silicon.  As for solar panels themselves they are made of highly refined silicon which requires vast amounts of energy to produce.  While theoretically we can run a factory on solar panels the over all rate of return on energy of photovoltaics is not worth it to try.

The Amish are not a good example here either.  Their requirements aren't the same as everyone else's unless you plan on turning everyone into Amish.

Quote:8. Amtrak does not get anything like the subsidies that air travel gets.

I'm opposed to air travel subsidies but at least I can get to where I'm going in a plane.

Quote:9. Considering that the GOP gave lockstep opposition to Obama and has a Republican President with whom it agrees on most critical issues... I expect cooperation by Congress much like that of the parliament of China. The legislative branch of government is a sick joke in a dictatorship.

[Kinser79]

(03-18-2017, 11:01 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Does anybody on board here really think that the days of our auto-centric culture are about numbered? This theory has been floated around from time to time even since the long gasoline lines of 1973-74. But not much has changed since, and if anything we have, with the exception of in a few large older cities, become even more auto dependent since then. I believe our love affair with the auto will have to end, but as I am now 72, I don't expect it to happen while I am still alive.

Not to speak for anyone else, but it seems to me that anything that is unsustainable will eventually come to an end. The question is do we have the will to implement those things necessary to have an orderly transition from now, to a transportation network that is distinctly not now.

At present we have Boomers (and some Xers) who are blocking progress in this area because they've completely bought into the whole notion that cars and driving are freedom. A notion I've never fully understood. Personally I'm not to fond of driving, and would rather wait on a bus or street car or some other conveyance.

[beechnut79]

(03-18-2017, 01:30 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-18-2017, 11:01 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Does anybody on board here really think that the days of our auto-centric culture are about numbered? This theory has been floated around from time to time even since the long gasoline lines of 1973-74. But not much has changed since, and if anything we have, with the exception of in a few large older cities, become even more auto dependent since then. I believe our love affair with the auto will have to end, but as I am now 72, I don't expect it to happen while I am still alive.

Not to speak for anyone else, but it seems to me that anything that is unsustainable will eventually come to an end.  The question is do we have the will to implement those things necessary to have an orderly transition from now, to a transportation network that is distinctly not now.

At present we have Boomers (and some Xers) who are blocking progress in this area because they've completely bought into the whole notion that cars and driving are freedom.  A notion I've never fully understood.  Personally I'm not to fond of driving, and would rather wait on a bus or street car or some other conveyance.

But you no doubt are the exception rather than the rule. Millennials seem to have embrace the more urban, transit-oriented lifestyle for now, but will they do an about-face once they really begin to start families? Or will they revert to embracing the car-dependent suburbs just as Boomers did? Recall that Boomers too were more urban friendly in their youthful mostly single days as well. Cars and driving do mean freedom, yes. But don't all the huge expenses associated with car driving (gas, insurance (now required by law just about everywhere), maintenance, licensing, parking fees, and most notably financing as almost all of us have to purchase them on time, negate much of the convenience factor? Apparently not enough to make very much of a dent. But this should be happening simply because most people's income is not nearly as secure as it was in the days following WWII when the car culture really took off. So far we don't seem to have the will; you are right on that. Again, it most likely would take a fallout just as bad or worse than the Great Depression.

[Kinser79]

(03-18-2017, 02:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: But you no doubt are the exception rather than the rule. Millennials seem to have embrace the more urban, transit-oriented lifestyle for now, but will they do an about-face once they really begin to start families? Or will they revert to embracing the car-dependent suburbs just as Boomers did? Recall that Boomers too were more urban friendly in their youthful mostly single days as well. Cars and driving do mean freedom, yes. But don't all the huge expenses associated with car driving (gas, insurance (now required by law just about everywhere), maintenance, licensing, parking fees, and most notably financing as almost all of us have to purchase them on time, negate much of the convenience factor? Apparently not enough to make very much of a dent. But this should be happening simply because most people's income is not nearly as secure as it was in the days following WWII when the car culture really took off. So far we don't seem to have the will; you are right on that. Again, it most likely would take a fallout just as bad or worse than the Great Depression.

1.  I'm not sure if I'm an exception or not.  I both own a car and drive.  I just do not subscribe to the notion that the automobile is itself an expression of freedom.  Often the reality of vehicle ownership and driving is quite different from the notion that has been sold.  I've just never been happy with suburbia.  I either want to live in the center of everything in a big city, or I want to live in the middle of no-where.  At present I'm living in a near suburb, but functionally it operates more like a small town than a suburb. 

2.  I think it depends.  Many Millenials have already started to have families.  Some have not.  But the fact remains that if the goal is to have children women have a limited time frame in which to have them.  At present those who do have families are suffering through a phenomenon known as "drive till you qualify".  In short regardless of what they may want they are in fact being forced into car dependent suburbs.

3.  My experience with Boomers is that they were never really friendly with Urban living unless their previous experience itself was urban.  White boomers in particular seem to be the most prone to "wanting to get back to the land" even though they have no intention of taking up agriculture or actual rural living.

4.  When it comes to the notion of cars and "freedom":  Yes with a car you can go where you want when you want, yadda yadda yadda.  At the same time you have to make payments on the car, buy fluids and fuel for the car, maintain the car, pay taxes on the car, drive in shitty places, be stuck in endless hours o traffic.  In short you trade one set of non-freedom for an other set of non-freedom.  Honestly the freest I've ever felt was when I lived in Chicago or New York City.  Both areas where owning a car is not the best way to get around.

5.  I would say that eventually as energy becomes much more expensive, and as liquid fuels in particular become much more expensive we'll see a reversal of what is deseirable as living spaces and what is not.  I fully expect that unlike now with urban cores of blight and middle-class and upper class suburbs we'll see the middle classes and upper classes flowing into cities (gentrifying the areas) and the poor going out to the suburbs seeking cheap rent.

US will be looking more like Brazil in more than one way.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-18-2017, 03:05 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: 3.  My experience with Boomers is that they were never really friendly with Urban living unless their previous experience itself was urban.  White boomers in particular seem to be the most prone to "wanting to get back to the land" even though they have no intention of taking up agriculture or actual rural living.

I'm kinda like that.  I grew up suburban and have always been suburban.  Well, I retired to the family cottage near Cape Cod.  That's not really rural, more like tourist country.  Still, I got a car in high school and have always had that mobility.

(03-18-2017, 03:05 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: 4.  When it comes to the notion of cars and "freedom":  Yes with a car you can go where you want when you want, yadda yadda yadda.  At the same time you have to make payments on the car, buy fluids and fuel for the car, maintain the car, pay taxes on the car, drive in shitty places, be stuck in endless hours o traffic.  In short you trade one set of non-freedom for an other set of non-freedom.  Honestly the freest I've ever felt was when I lived in Chicago or New York City.  Both areas where owning a car is not the best way to get around.

There are some other shifts that came with cars that should be kept in mind.  In the suburban Boston area, there was light rail everywhere in the form of trolly tracks and overhead wires.  My father as a kid, if he could gather a hand full of dimes, could travel all over the South Shore without a horse or a car, just jumping from trolly to trolly.  If this sort of service were to come back, they'd probably do it with busses rather than put all the rails back.

My home town and most of the South Shore region was shoe making territory.  It started with the local farms having cattle.  When you butcher the cattle, you have hide.  In the winter months, when there isn't as much to do on a farm, people would make shoes and boots.  As the Industrial Age kicked in, it became more efficient to make shoes with machines and on assembly lines.  The work shifted from the farms to the factories.

But you lived at most one town away from your factory.  You got to work by trolly.  Traveling more than one town too more time than you'd like.  Today, with cars, folk tend to commute much longer distances.  This might want to change back.

Retail worked differently.  Every town had a main street with a grocery store, a meat store, a hardware store, a cloth store, etc...  The town centers were for many too far away to visit casually, you'd want the trolly, but for serious shopping one could get most of what one wanted on main street.  These days, one town in five has a oversized mall surrounded by a huge parking lot.  If you like economy of scale, this can be a good thing.  If one is trying to wean a culture from cars, there might be a shift back to more smaller shopping centers.

There might also be a shift to delivery service.  In my youth, the milk man delivered every other day, the newspaper was delivered, and the fish man came every Friday.  That might be coming back with a computerized difference.  You can log into one of the local super market's web sights, fill in an order, and they'll deliver.  Amazon and other web commerce sites are pushing back brick and mortar retail.  While in the old days every town had a main street lined with retail, main street might not need to come back.

Convenience stores have also shifted since the first half of the 20th century.  In the old days, there was a small general store within walking distance of everywhere.  As a kid, I had a half mile walk east to get to a decent sized grocery store on Main Street, or I could go half a mile west to a tiny store that had a little bit of everything.  Today, in the car age, all those tiny stores have vanished, but there are clumps of convince stores and drug stores in most towns.  In Rockland, Burger King is right next to McDonalds.  CVS drugs is one block away from a competing drug store.  Cumberland Farms is a classic convince store, sitting among two gas stations with attached convince stores.  This hub of small stores are right together, a half mile away from the old town center.  Given that no one walks, that everyone goes everywhere by car, why scatter stores around so that everyone can easily walk to get milk and hamburger?  Everyone wants to be at the prime location, where two major roads meet, and everyone ends up at the same prime location.

Another shift is porches.  In the days of horses, walking and trollies, the tradition locally was to build a front porch.  One would sit out there on a rocking chair and chat a bit as people passed by.  As cars took over, the front yard became noisy and casual conversation with passers by ended.  The emphasis shifted from the front yard to the back yard.  One had patios and swimming pools rather than porches.

Anyway, it's not just the transportation infrastructure that might change.  Change the technology, and there is often quite a bit of fallout.

[pbrower2a]

(03-18-2017, 11:01 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:43 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Rags....

You want Mass Transit?  Leave that to the states and to the cities.  Interstate rail and air transport can be left with the DOT.  

I'd include Fannie and Freddie.  There is more than enough fat to trim.

As to the DOD yeah, it has a lot of bullshit that has to be wrapped up too.  An aggressive withdrawal back to our Hemisphere will do much to aid in that.

Yes, I think the USA has an auto fetish. Autos belch out a lot of pollution. Also, in rural states like Oklahoma, I whistle stops along current rail lines would be nice. At present, if you want to fly, you have to drive more than 70 miles to hit the closest airport. I also like to pull any lever to get rid of the addiction to foreign oil.  I'd love to see what happens to  oil price once the externalities of defending oil imports gets tacked on.

Does anybody on board here really think that the days of our auto-centric culture are about numbered? This theory has been floated around from time to time even since the long gasoline lines of 1973-74. But not much has changed since, and if anything we have, with the exception of in a few large older cities, become even more auto dependent since then. I believe our love affair with the auto will have to end, but as I am now 72, I don't expect it to happen while I am still alive.

Yes. The automobile as an expression of the Self is practically dead -- in view of the bland vehicles that are now the norm for commuters. It's practically an appliance now in its appeal. Nobody gets excited about a stove or a refrigerator anymore, and the cars that we have are becoming about as charming as dishwashers. A tip-off is that we no longer see people trying to make the equivalent of hot rods anymore.  Try making a hot rod out of this:



It's a utilitarian, early Honda Accord. It's a nice car for traveling in, but it has no style.

Figure that thousands of Ford, Chevrolet, and Plymouth vehicles from the 1920s and 1930s that were effectively useless at freeway speeds, had a dead engine, or whose upholstery was ruined got new lives when some kids replaced the underpowered four-cylinder engines with bigger engines from otherwise-decrepit jalopies.



Of course that depended upon people having space for working on and keeping cars with little usefulness. Southern California was ideal for such until the 1960s when land was still cheap. (Simulated bodies like those of 1920's and 1930's vehicles are made, but they would not work on the busy chassis of a contemporary front-wheel-drive car).  This vehicle might be available in Michigan, but you might not enjoy it during a cold snap, blizzard, or heavy rainstorm.

...The more that people are crowded into tinier apartments, the more impractical automobiles become. In 1993 as I was on a drive in the Greater New York City region on the Tappan Zee Bridge on a Sunday afternoons, I noticed that almost all the cars on the bridge heading into NYC were expensive makes of car -- Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura, Bentley -- just figure that the cost of renting garage space for a car in NYC is higher than the payments for the car. Automobiles might be cheap to keep in rural New Mexico, where poor people have cars, but they are very costly to keep in New York City, San Francisco, and Boston. Middle-class people generally might be priced out of private automobiles in NYC.