Local Politics in the 4T

[tg63]

Well this just got really interesting. And since this could only happen in a 4T I thought I'd share it here.

My city - Toronto - has municipal elections going on (the elections themselves are in October). The current mayor is rather well respected, altho somewhat begrudgingly. He's basically a manager, keeping things running. We won't get any transformational ideas from him, but the city will run (we of course had Rob Ford as mayor previously).

Just before the 2pm deadline to file today, a legitimate contender filed to run - the former Chief Planner for the city - and it appears may be running on a platform of secession from the province. This would be equivalent to New York City trying to secede from New York state. For a legitimate candidate to take this position, is, well, unprecedented to say the least.

The backstory is very relevant - the provincial government just got elected into power last month - a right wing government led by former mayor Rob Ford's brother, Doug Ford. Completely out of the blue it was reported last night that he will be passing legislation shortly to cut Toronto's city council from 47 to 25.

Of course this has been front page news up here today, with press conferences from all sides. So when, suddenly, the former chief planner - who just happens to be an attractive, relatively young lady - tweeted this am "secession" and just showed up to file her papers to run for mayor - well, a crazy local news day just got a whole lot crazier.

Everyone's reaction in the first hours seems to be a very sarcastic "yeah, sure ..."; but I'm sitting looking at this from a 4T persective ... this could actually happen.

We just finished a very bizarre provincial election - it seems the next couple of months of our municipal election are going to be even crazier!!!

[David Horn]

Is it possible for Toronto to secede for Ontario? In the US, it’s not, but Canada may be different.

[Eric the Green]

(07-27-2018, 01:37 PM)tg63 Wrote: Well this just got really interesting. And since this could only happen in a 4T I thought I'd share it here.

My city - Toronto - has municipal elections going on (the elections themselves are in October). The current mayor is rather well respected, altho somewhat begrudgingly. He's basically a manager, keeping things running. We won't get any transformational ideas from him, but the city will run (we of course had Rob Ford as mayor previously).

Just before the 2pm deadline to file today, a legitimate contender filed to run - the former Chief Planner for the city - and it appears may be running on a platform of secession from the province. This would be equivalent to New York City trying to secede from New York state. For a legitimate candidate to take this position, is, well, unprecedented to say the least.

The backstory is very relevant - the provincial government just got elected into power last month - a right wing government led by former mayor Rob Ford's brother, Doug Ford. Completely out of the blue it was reported last night that he will be passing legislation shortly to cut Toronto's city council from 47 to 25.

Of course this has been front page news up here today, with press conferences from all sides. So when, suddenly, the former chief planner - who just happens to be an attractive, relatively young lady - tweeted this am "secession" and just showed up to file her papers to run for mayor - well, a crazy local news day just got a whole lot crazier.

Everyone's reaction in the first hours seems to be a very sarcastic "yeah, sure ..."; but I'm sitting looking at this from a 4T persective ... this could actually happen.

We just finished a very bizarre provincial election - it seems the next couple of months of our municipal election are going to be even crazier!!!

I hope Ontario can get rid of their Trumpist imposter as provincial leader. How in the world did that happen?

[tg63]

(07-28-2018, 05:40 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-27-2018, 01:37 PM)tg63 Wrote: Well this just got really interesting. And since this could only happen in a 4T I thought I'd share it here.

My city - Toronto - has municipal elections going on (the elections themselves are in October). The current mayor is rather well respected, altho somewhat begrudgingly. He's basically a manager, keeping things running. We won't get any transformational ideas from him, but the city will run (we of course had Rob Ford as mayor previously).

Just before the 2pm deadline to file today, a legitimate contender filed to run - the former Chief Planner for the city - and it appears may be running on a platform of secession from the province. This would be equivalent to New York City trying to secede from New York state. For a legitimate candidate to take this position, is, well, unprecedented to say the least.

The backstory is very relevant - the provincial government just got elected into power last month - a right wing government led by former mayor Rob Ford's brother, Doug Ford. Completely out of the blue it was reported last night that he will be passing legislation shortly to cut Toronto's city council from 47 to 25.

Of course this has been front page news up here today, with press conferences from all sides. So when, suddenly, the former chief planner - who just happens to be an attractive, relatively young lady - tweeted this am "secession" and just showed up to file her papers to run for mayor - well, a crazy local news day just got a whole lot crazier.

Everyone's reaction in the first hours seems to be a very sarcastic "yeah, sure ..."; but I'm sitting looking at this from a 4T persective ... this could actually happen.

We just finished a very bizarre provincial election - it seems the next couple of months of our municipal election are going to be even crazier!!!

I hope Ontario can get rid of their Trumpist imposter as provincial leader. How in the world did that happen?

it's another example of the rural-urban divide; in the same way that California's red/blue county map is largely split based on urban / rural centres, our split is similar. Plus, the previous government - liberals - held power for the previous 14 years, so the mood was one of change, regardless of what type of change.

[tg63]

(07-28-2018, 12:57 PM)David Horn Wrote: Is it possible for Toronto to secede for Ontario?  In the US, it’s not, but  Canada may be different.

Yup, there's a process for it, laid out in Canada's constitution; it would be extremely unlikely, but theoretically it could happen ... and as I said, this is a 4T, if it ever were to happen I could see some stars aligning. Certainly interesting times around here.

[David Horn]

(07-30-2018, 11:30 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(07-28-2018, 12:57 PM)David Horn Wrote: Is it possible for Toronto to secede for Ontario?  In the US, it’s not, but  Canada may be different.

Yup, there's a process for it, laid out in Canada's constitution; it would be extremely unlikely, but theoretically it could happen ... and as I said, this is a 4T, if it ever were to happen I could see some stars aligning. Certainly interesting times around here.

Most Americans (and I use that for brevity's sake) don't fully appreciate how populous Toronto really is.  Though US cities tend to have a much larger metro area in relation to the actual urban population, within their respective city limits, Toronto is smaller than Los Angeles but larger than Chicago.  Would any of the greater metro area join if Toronto decided to split?  If that starts, I can see a lot of urban provinces: Vancouver, Calgary/Edmonton perhaps, The Golden Horseshoe, with Windsor joining Toronto or Windsor on its own, Montreal and its surrounds, and even Ottawa.  Messy.

[Marypoza]

Wrt Montreal, Quebec has been threatening to secede forever but hasn't yet. Some years ago l read an article about how some of the western provinces were looking into joining the United States (gawd only knows why, we're as f*ed up as ever) TX & CA talk about seceding but nothing over comes of it. I think the closest any political entity ever came to seceding (recently) is when Scotland had that secession vote a few years back & the majority of the Scots got cold feet. I'm thinking things have to get really bad b4 ppl actually secede & form their own nation state

[pbrower2a]

Secession has no justification in opposition to likely policies of a President or Congress. Southerners gave Lincoln no chance to suggest how he would abolish slavery if he wanted to do so. A model existed in Britain, and it could have been applied to slavery in America -- the government forces the compulsory sale of any slaves who want freedom and settles the Freedmen in the West. The Civil War made such impossible in part because so many slaves seceded from the Confederacy to the Union lines, and the US Army was not going to maintain slave status of the most peculiar contraband.

Is secession a valid means of escaping a despotic or tyrannical President? Maybe -- as America has had no such President before Donald Trump. I see evidence of many states that were close in 2016 rejecting the President at the Thirteenth Hour. We have a federal system which allows for some independence of the states for budgeting and criminal law. There is no federal law banning murder as such, but there are federal statutes against murders on federal property or of federal officials doing their jobs, and military personnel have the Uniform Code of (federal) Criminal Justice that the Federal government can allow, at its discretion, to give way to state courts.

Donald Trump has pushed the limits of centralization of authority and attempts to assume powers of Congress (including a desire to give unilateral tax cuts to the very rich). Dictatorial government of the United States or "Republic of Michigan"? I'll take the Republic of Michigan, fully understanding that it is unviable enough that it would need to ask for annexation by Canada.

Janet Grantholm as PM wouldn't be so bad after all!

[David Horn]

(07-31-2018, 10:39 AM)Marypoza Wrote: Wrt Montreal, Quebec has been threatening to secede forever but hasn't yet. Some years ago l read an article about how some of the western provinces were looking into joining the United States (gawd only knows why, we're as f*ed up as ever) TX & CA talk about seceding but nothing over comes of it. I think the closest any political entity ever came to seceding (recently) is when Scotland had that secession vote a few years back & the majority of the Scots got cold feet. I'm thinking things have to get really bad b4 ppl actually secede & form their own nation state

WRT Toronto leaving Ontario, they would still be part of Canada and, presumably, another province.  Assuming the entire metro area joins the city proper, a new province of ~6 Million people with a land are of 5,905.71 km^2 (2,280.21 mi^2), is not unreasonable at all. Prince Edward Island has a smaller total land area of 5,660 km^2 (2,190 mi^2), a population of ~150,000, and has been a province since 1873.

Several US states have tried to break apart to achieve greater political clout, but none have done so to date. West Virginia severed itself from Virginia during the ACW, but that is a special case if there ever was one.

[tg63]

(07-31-2018, 01:26 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 10:39 AM)Marypoza Wrote: Wrt Montreal, Quebec has been threatening to secede forever but hasn't yet. Some years ago l read an article about how some of the western provinces were looking into joining the United States (gawd only knows why, we're as f*ed up as ever) TX & CA talk about seceding but nothing over comes of it. I think the closest any political entity ever came to seceding (recently) is when Scotland had that secession vote a few years back & the majority of the Scots got cold feet. I'm thinking things have to get really bad b4 ppl actually secede & form their own nation state

WRT Toronto leaving Ontario, they would still be part of Canada and, presumably, another province.  Assuming the entire metro area joins the city proper, a new province of ~6 Million people with a land are of 5,905.71 km^2 (2,280.21 mi^2), is not unreasonable at all.  Prince Edward Island has a smaller total land area of 5,660 km^2 (2,190 mi^2), a population of ~150,000, and has been a province since 1873.

Several US states have tried to break apart to achieve greater political clout, but none have done so to date.  West Virginia severed itself from Virginia during the ACW, but that is a special case if there ever was one.

exactly, this would create a new province. 

I'm actually kind of surprised that no US city - NYC being the obvious one, but there could be cases made for others - has tried to leave its home state.

[David Horn]

(08-01-2018, 11:36 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 01:26 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 10:39 AM)Marypoza Wrote: Wrt Montreal, Quebec has been threatening to secede forever but hasn't yet. Some years ago l read an article about how some of the western provinces were looking into joining the United States (gawd only knows why, we're as f*ed up as ever) TX & CA talk about seceding but nothing over comes of it. I think the closest any political entity ever came to seceding (recently) is when Scotland had that secession vote a few years back & the majority of the Scots got cold feet. I'm thinking things have to get really bad b4 ppl actually secede & form their own nation state

WRT Toronto leaving Ontario, they would still be part of Canada and, presumably, another province.  Assuming the entire metro area joins the city proper, a new province of ~6 Million people with a land are of 5,905.71 km^2 (2,280.21 mi^2), is not unreasonable at all.  Prince Edward Island has a smaller total land area of 5,660 km^2 (2,190 mi^2), a population of ~150,000, and has been a province since 1873.

Several US states have tried to break apart to achieve greater political clout, but none have done so to date.  West Virginia severed itself from Virginia during the ACW, but that is a special case if there ever was one.

exactly, this would create a new province. 

I'm actually kind of surprised that no US city - NYC being the obvious one, but there could be cases made for others - has tried to leave its home state.

This has come up from time to time, but it's not as easy to accomplish in the US as it obviously is in Canada.  For starters, the state government has a virtual veto if it choses to use it.  If that hurdle is crossed, then there has to be a referendum to see if the idea is OK within the state and city.  Next, it's on to the Federal government, which has to pass a law authorizing the admission of a new state.  This took decades in the cases of Alaska and Hawaii.

No state has tried to accomplish this since Hawaii, and the politics of the new state may make the case impossible regardless.

[beechnut79]

(08-01-2018, 12:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-01-2018, 11:36 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 01:26 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 10:39 AM)Marypoza Wrote: Wrt Montreal, Quebec has been threatening to secede forever but hasn't yet. Some years ago l read an article about how some of the western provinces were looking into joining the United States (gawd only knows why, we're as f*ed up as ever) TX & CA talk about seceding but nothing over comes of it. I think the closest any political entity ever came to seceding (recently) is when Scotland had that secession vote a few years back & the majority of the Scots got cold feet. I'm thinking things have to get really bad b4 ppl actually secede & form their own nation state

WRT Toronto leaving Ontario, they would still be part of Canada and, presumably, another province.  Assuming the entire metro area joins the city proper, a new province of ~6 Million people with a land are of 5,905.71 km^2 (2,280.21 mi^2), is not unreasonable at all.  Prince Edward Island has a smaller total land area of 5,660 km^2 (2,190 mi^2), a population of ~150,000, and has been a province since 1873.

Several US states have tried to break apart to achieve greater political clout, but none have done so to date.  West Virginia severed itself from Virginia during the ACW, but that is a special case if there ever was one.

exactly, this would create a new province. 

I'm actually kind of surprised that no US city - NYC being the obvious one, but there could be cases made for others - has tried to leave its home state.

This has come up from time to time, but it's not as easy to accomplish in the US as it obviously is in Canada.  For starters, the state government has a virtual veto if it choses to use it.  If that hurdle is crossed, then there has to be a referendum to see if the idea is OK within the state and city.  Next, it's on to the Federal government, which has to pass a law authorizing the admission of a new state.  This took decades in the cases of Alaska and Hawaii.

No state has tried to accomplish this since Hawaii, and the politics of the new state may make the case impossible regardless.

A movement to spit California into two states has been going on for a very long time. And didn't Staten Island try to break away from NYC?

[David Horn]

(08-01-2018, 01:12 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: A movement to spit California into two states has been going on for a very long time. And didn't Staten Island try to break away from NYC?

NYC is really 5 counties aggregated into a single city, so Staten island could conceivably split with the rest of the city -- and tried in the 1990s. NY State killed the idea, so there it is and will probably always be.

California could become 5 or 6 states and each might could easily be larger in population than most of the current states. In fact, I think the argument for California and Texas are both strong, but I doubt it will happen in either state.

[Ragnarök_62]

Oklahoma's turning green.  

Tiime to get back to the gaaardeen.

[Marypoza]

(08-01-2018, 12:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-01-2018, 11:36 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 01:26 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 10:39 AM)Marypoza Wrote: Wrt Montreal, Quebec has been threatening to secede forever but hasn't yet. Some years ago l read an article about how some of the western provinces were looking into joining the United States (gawd only knows why, we're as f*ed up as ever) TX & CA talk about seceding but nothing over comes of it. I think the closest any political entity ever came to seceding (recently) is when Scotland had that secession vote a few years back & the majority of the Scots got cold feet. I'm thinking things have to get really bad b4 ppl actually secede & form their own nation state

WRT Toronto leaving Ontario, they would still be part of Canada and, presumably, another province.  Assuming the entire metro area joins the city proper, a new province of ~6 Million people with a land are of 5,905.71 km^2 (2,280.21 mi^2), is not unreasonable at all.  Prince Edward Island has a smaller total land area of 5,660 km^2 (2,190 mi^2), a population of ~150,000, and has been a province since 1873.

Several US states have tried to break apart to achieve greater political clout, but none have done so to date.  West Virginia severed itself from Virginia during the ACW, but that is a special case if there ever was one.

exactly, this would create a new province. 

I'm actually kind of surprised that no US city - NYC being the obvious one, but there could be cases made for others - has tried to leave its home state.

This has come up from time to time, but it's not as easy to accomplish in the US as it obviously is in Canada.  For starters, the state government has a virtual veto if it choses to use it.  If that hurdle is crossed, then there has to be a referendum to see if the idea is OK within the state and city.  Next, it's on to the Federal government, which has to pass a law authorizing the admission of a new state.  This took decades in the cases of Alaska and Hawaii.

No state has tried to accomplish this since Hawaii, and the politics of the new state may make the case impossible regardless.

-- now that you mention it, Puerto Rico has neen trying to bcome a state 4ever, but has been unsuccessful so far.  Not everybody there wants it to be a state, alot of ppl there would rather stay a commonwealth. Apparantly commonwealths have more freedoms than full fledged states.

[Marypoza]

(08-01-2018, 05:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

Oklahoma's turning green.  

Tiime to get back to the gaaardeen.

--Rags! where ya been?

[David Horn]

(08-02-2018, 12:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- now that you mention it, Puerto Rico has neen trying to bcome a state 4ever, but has been unsuccessful so far.  Not everybody there wants it to be a state, alot of ppl there would rather stay a commonwealth. Apparantly commonwealths have more freedoms than full fledged states.

There are advantages and disadvantages to remaining partially outside the US umbrella. Hurricane Maria would have triggered a different US government response to the state of Puerto Rico than the stiff-arm response we gave PR as a territory. On the other hand, PR can offer special tax avoidance schemes to companies if they locate there.

[Eric the Green]

(07-31-2018, 11:25 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Secession has no justification in opposition to likely policies of a President or Congress.  Southerners gave Lincoln no chance to suggest how he would abolish slavery if he wanted to do so. A model existed in Britain, and it could have been applied to slavery in America -- the government forces the compulsory sale of any slaves who want freedom and settles the Freedmen in the West. The Civil War made such impossible in part because so many slaves seceded from the Confederacy to the Union lines, and the US Army was not going to maintain slave status of the most peculiar contraband.

Is secession a valid means of escaping a despotic or tyrannical President? Maybe -- as America has had no such President before Donald Trump. I see evidence of many states that were close in 2016 rejecting the President at the Thirteenth Hour. We have a federal system which allows for some independence of the states for budgeting and criminal law. There is no federal law banning murder as such, but there are federal statutes against murders on federal property or of federal officials doing their jobs, and military personnel have the Uniform Code of (federal) Criminal Justice that the Federal government can allow, at its discretion, to give way to state courts.

Donald Trump has pushed the limits of centralization of authority and attempts to assume powers of Congress (including a desire to give unilateral tax cuts to the very rich). Dictatorial government of the United States or "Republic of Michigan"? I'll take the Republic of Michigan, fully understanding that it is unviable enough that it would need to ask for annexation by Canada.

Janet Grantholm as PM wouldn't be so bad after all!

I think most seceding blue states could join up with Canada or even Mexico. There could be a continuous territory of the coasts and northern lake states joined with Canada. It would be a strange geography though; a cross continental trip through this new Canada would have to run all the way up the west coast to BC and then across Alberta etc.

[David Horn]

(08-02-2018, 01:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-31-2018, 11:25 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Secession has no justification in opposition to likely policies of a President or Congress.  Southerners gave Lincoln no chance to suggest how he would abolish slavery if he wanted to do so. A model existed in Britain, and it could have been applied to slavery in America -- the government forces the compulsory sale of any slaves who want freedom and settles the Freedmen in the West. The Civil War made such impossible in part because so many slaves seceded from the Confederacy to the Union lines, and the US Army was not going to maintain slave status of the most peculiar contraband.

Is secession a valid means of escaping a despotic or tyrannical President? Maybe -- as America has had no such President before Donald Trump. I see evidence of many states that were close in 2016 rejecting the President at the Thirteenth Hour. We have a federal system which allows for some independence of the states for budgeting and criminal law. There is no federal law banning murder as such, but there are federal statutes against murders on federal property or of federal officials doing their jobs, and military personnel have the Uniform Code of (federal) Criminal Justice that the Federal government can allow, at its discretion, to give way to state courts.

Donald Trump has pushed the limits of centralization of authority and attempts to assume powers of Congress (including a desire to give unilateral tax cuts to the very rich). Dictatorial government of the United States or "Republic of Michigan"? I'll take the Republic of Michigan, fully understanding that it is unviable enough that it would need to ask for annexation by Canada.

Janet Grantholm as PM wouldn't be so bad after all!

I think most seceding blue states could join up with Canada or even Mexico. There could be a continuous territory of the coasts and northern lake states joined with Canada. It would be a strange geography though; a cross continental trip through this new Canada would have to run all the way up the west coast to BC and then across Alberta etc.

I've spent a lot of time in Alberta, and they would like to join the US.  Manitoba might too, so the geography would be even weirder.

[Marypoza]

(08-02-2018, 12:42 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-02-2018, 12:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- now that you mention it, Puerto Rico has neen trying to bcome a state 4ever, but has been unsuccessful so far.  Not everybody there wants it to be a state, alot of ppl there would rather stay a commonwealth. Apparantly commonwealths have more freedoms than full fledged states.

There are advantages and disadvantages to remaining partially outside the US umbrella.  Hurricane Maria would have triggered a different US government response to the state of Puerto Rico than the stiff-arm response we gave PR as a territory.  On the other hand, PR can offer special tax avoidance schemes to companies if they locate there.

-- l would attribute the stiff armed response to the Donald. Both PR & the VI have been hit by hurricanes plenty of times & received Govt aid w/out incedent.