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Hero
Artist
Prophet
Nomad
Please let us discuss why those words were used in order to name the archetypes.
My thoughts generally are:
Heroes arrive in a Crisis to fix structural problems to save us
Artists enjoy the fruit of that fixing and are free to create for us
Prophets arrive in the most optimal time and offer personal revelation to us
Nomads are left with close to nothing when everything unraveled on us
REPEAT
The above is pretty much right from the book The Fourth Turning. Heroes fix. Artists create. Prophets reveal. Nomads roam. I would like to see some discussion about those words and their meaning -- in relation to how to describe the archetype. Those words mean something. The authors chose those words for a reason.
What are some of the pro and con of the archetypes based on those words? The authors even went into that.
Hero: strong in structure but lacking in vision
Prophet: strong in vision but lacking in structure
[those are paraphrased but nonetheless]
Those are the two I remember the most. What does anyone think?
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Am I allowed to bump? Topic is still relevant to me
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Howe and Strauss originally used
Idealist for what we often call "Prophet" generations -- Puritan, Awakening, Transcendental, and Missionary
Reactive for what we often call "Nomad" generations -- Cavalier, Liberty, Gilded, Lost, and Thirteenth/X
Civic for what we often call "Hero" generations -- Glorious, Republican, (the Gilded assumed the role but not well). GI, and Millennial
Adaptive for what we often call"Artist" generations -- Enlightenment, Compromise, Progressive, and Silent... and the current children
Idealist/Prophet generations are the innovators in thought, philosophical and religious. They can innovate in such things because they are children encouraged to think for themselves. That is not to say that they are great moral thinkers; Trump isn't. They are the reformers and heretics. Howe and Strauss list a large number of intellectual revolutionaries (Luther, Calvin, Knox, Loyola, Zwingli) in the Reformation Generation that broke the intellectual smugness of the late medieval world.
Reactive/Nomad kids grow up in the ferment of an Awakening Era and don't fully get it. They are never a part of it, so they seem out of place in such a time. Often terribly neglected, they seek solace in adventure and entrepreneurialism -- and often crime. In politics they are often vindictive rebels who use their secular power to settle scores (think of the Lost fascists and Stalin's henchmen). If they mature fully before taking power they are the ones with no taste for shaking up much (Washington, the Grant, Cleveland, Truman, Eisenhower, and Obama).
Civic/Hero kids grow up in chaos short of war and dislike what they see. They grow up in time to be heroes of the Crisis, something that they solve to the extent possible with big solutions. Big organizations (which may be the small-scale businesses that Reactive/Nomad young adults start on a small scale can be social as well as commercial or political. They try to solve problems in the Hewre and Now and not ask the fundamental questions.
Adaptive/Artist kids grow up on the sidelines of history. They are protected -- usually over-protected. When they grow up they find themselves doing what they can with the big, new organizations -- refining or fine-tuning. They don't make waves early.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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The Nomads are seriously underestimated. Even by S&H. Although they admit the work Nomads have to do: Carry away the garbage the last Artist generation created, keep the rabid "Prophets" from destroying everything for the sake of their ideology, fix family and society, did I mention raising the Heroes?
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09-04-2018, 12:52 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2018, 12:58 AM by Eric the Green.)
(09-03-2018, 08:08 PM)Hintergrund Wrote: The Nomads are seriously underestimated. Even by S&H. Although they admit the work Nomads have to do: Carry away the garbage the last Artist generation created, keep the rabid "Prophets" from destroying everything for the sake of their ideology, fix family and society, did I mention raising the Heroes?
Prophets also raise the heroes, and primarily so, and infuse them with morals and self-esteem.
I think what hasn't been said about nomads like the X generation is that they develop a lot of self-reliance and independence. They are indeed the best at taking risks; the Xers invented extreme sports, and I saw their skill that went far beyond what boomers did. At their best, they are very pragmatic and skilled at problem solving. That is valuable to society during a 4T when they are in middle age. At worst the Xers were aimless and violent, and absorbed the cynicism of Reaganomics, and that is reflected in most of their political leaders, though not all. In leadership skills they have yet to show that they can replace Boomers, who do have the potential for a lot of charisma, if often misdirected. The best candidates for 2020, for example, are still Boomers, Boomer-Silents, and late-wave Boomers. I don't see that Xers are less ideologically rabid than Boomers; being extremists at heart, probably they are more so, with less articulation; although Boomers helped set the stage for ideological conflicts today.
So nomads are independent adventurers, and artists are people who love people. They promoted tolerance and "I'm OK, you're OK." They were inheritors but also social innovators. They are creative, but art per se is largely hidden in America and does not have the place that it should. But the silent-boomer cusp in particular showed what they can do.
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09-04-2018, 05:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-04-2018, 08:08 PM by TheNomad.)
PROPHET and IDEALIST
REACTIVE and NOMAD?
CIVIC and HERO?
ADAPTIVE and ARTIST
My immediate reactions are Prophet/Idealist have a "standard" they bring to the rest of us and expect us to follow it. We normally associate the word "ideal" with "best". In this case, that is how the Prophet/Idealist is viewing their own message (whatever it is) -- the right way for us to conduct ourselves based on their ethics....... while they, themselves demand others conform to their message, they are exempt from their own message. They do not have to DO BY EXAMPLE, all that is required of them is to COMMAND BY AUTHORITY.
Good call, authors.
Reactive - to me - is a generation of people WHOLLY subjugated by the devastation left to them by others that came before. Their lives are reactions to what IS because they have no power or ability to affect any change on anything.
Civic is a person extremely plugged into change and working with others to solve problems. A "civic-minded" person is someone actually concerned with the community, what is happening there and what needs to be done.
Adaptive.... hmmm........ I catch this one from something the authors wrote about Artists are the "bridge" between the Hero and the Nomad (?) I think. Or are they the bridge between Hero and (new)Prophet? Whatever, they act in a capacity to help wherever they can... they plug themselves in where they fit. <-- I'm pretty sure
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Prophets, for good or ill, are idealists -- dreamers. They may dream of something sick. They are weak in 'thing' orientation. They can dream of a dam or a motorway but they can't build it. They can model an ideal society or community but can't create it themselves. They are good at cultural creativity; they like theirs intense, whatever it is.
Nomads are the most mobile of people, capable of gong from one promising opportunity to another when the early one loses its promise. They have less connection to place and institutions than others. That implies lesser loyalty to places and institutions, and that others are less likely to invest in their education and training. Many end up going from one bad, exploitative employer to another. Because their relationship with the rest of the world can change so drastically, they must react to change abruptly and without sentimentality. Their culture is hedonistic, with no pretense of high purpose.
Civic implies a commitment to community and institutions, which is what one expects of people who grow up in a culture that can. They build big and set up large institutions with the expectation that such will pay off well in economic stability. They are willing to make the early sacrifices (the 'Hero' part) but in return they expect comfort and security. The problem is that they expect others to be like them. 'Comfort' means standardized culture -- formally developed, but often insipid.
Adaptive youth know that the great struggle of time is something for them to avoid. It is someone else's world even if things work out for them. Basically the understudies of the Civic generation, they get to fine-tune the details after the fact. Those with some education get to be clerks in the grand scheme of things. Attentive to details, and smart, they express themselves in an area that opens because the Civic/Hero generation isn't very good at it: art.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(08-29-2018, 03:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Idealist/Prophet generations are the innovators in thought, philosophical and religious. They can innovate in such things because they are children encouraged to think for themselves. That is not to say that they are great moral thinkers; Trump isn't. They are the reformers and heretics. Howe and Strauss list a large number of intellectual revolutionaries (Luther, Calvin, Knox, Loyola, Zwingli) in the Reformation Generation that broke the intellectual smugness of the late medieval world.
As for Prophet/Idealist generations I would make a distinction in terms of the double rhythm. Dionysus prophets tend to excel in the philosophical/religious/moral spheres, and may revolutionize the culture. Apollo prophets may excel in ideology, and invent blue prints for new worldly systems.
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(09-04-2018, 07:39 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: (08-29-2018, 03:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Idealist/Prophet generations are the innovators in thought, philosophical and religious. They can innovate in such things because they are children encouraged to think for themselves. That is not to say that they are great moral thinkers; Trump isn't. They are the reformers and heretics. Howe and Strauss list a large number of intellectual revolutionaries (Luther, Calvin, Knox, Loyola, Zwingli) in the Reformation Generation that broke the intellectual smugness of the late medieval world.
As for Prophet/Idealist generations I would make a distinction in terms of the double rhythm. Dionysus prophets tend to excel in the philosophical/religious/moral spheres, and may revolutionize the culture. Apollo prophets may excel in ideology, and invent blue prints for new worldly systems.
What do you mean different types of Prophets?
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TheNomad, check out archived threads such as "The Alternating Paradigm Theory (APT)" and "Two Lifetime Cycle".
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(09-04-2018, 08:23 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: TheNomad, check out archived threads such as "The Alternating Paradigm Theory (APT)" and "Two Lifetime Cycle".
If you're human then let's talk about it. I see lots of people here (almost all) have signature lines, as if what comes forth from them is the sacred brooke fountain of the prophet's word.
I can go read wikipedia to understand any belief or reasoning and idea you have. I sense a huge menace of vanity here.
I dare anyone who really cares about progress to take down your signature line for even a week and then put it back (if you want to). I bet no one will.
If any of you is wondering why there is a twitterverse or soundbyte culture, you need not look further than how you act yourselves.
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(09-04-2018, 08:23 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: TheNomad, check out archived threads such as "The Alternating Paradigm Theory (APT)" and "Two Lifetime Cycle".
Forum search doesn't find them. Can't you give us a link if you know them?
Nevermind, I found it. So sometimes it's about keeping the old system, sometimes you want to start something new? Could be. But you only have four data points so far. You'd need some more. Does your theory fit the earlier Turnings?
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