help me to understand purpose of mask

[TheNomad]

This is an existential question and not meant to create controversy, per se, except where it's brought.

What is the purpose of the mask?

When my state mandated them, I was unaware of it on the first day, and went into the grocery store without one - as I had been.  Someone confronted me from behind their own mask and in a hateful, orderly tone said to me in front of others waiting in like

"BRAVE no mask"

Now, you can interpret that any way you want to.  But what the person said is different from how they said it and what they meant to imply.  The words of the statement said I must be brave to not be wearing it.  However, the intent was to shame me.

Shaming someone in this manner, to me, conveys fear of the shamer than I might be transmitting the virus to them.

Calling me brave would mean exactly what it says - that I am brave and do not fear THEM infecting me.

Since there is right now a national rift over the mask thing, I need other people to give input on this.

Please do not say "it's both" because when I ask this question, I am immediately reminded of my own, and personal, encounter when someone actually did confront me.  Through these times of confusion, I am finding more and more there are no "truths" or "realities" when so much is unknown.  If you think everything is so clear, maybe you shouldn't respond here.  All that does is auto-negate those who might disagree with your views.

These are dangerous times, but under that sub-heading of DANGER there is MUCH than remains questionable.  We as human beings are here to discuss among ourselves what we experience in daily life.  That is sometimes all we can do.

edit sorry I forgot to include the  very thing that made me want to post this.  I am reading a lot about how wearing the mask is about "loving your neighbor" and helping keep them safe.  But time after time I see many more things with the exact statement from witnesses of others not wearing it "they dont care about us".

This is confusing.  I think people are a lot more selfish than they would want to admit.  It's about them.  The rights of others - the existential right - to risk themselves if they want to, that's on the hook for the risk of the fearful.  The fearful should never win over the rights of the masses.  We lose every time this happens.

"I am afraid of something you are doing/not doing, so let's pass a law to make you do it so I feel safe"

that never works and is not a sane thing to consider.  In reality it looks great, tho.  In "reality" of a pandemic it looks great.  But the next generation is going to shame us for giving away the rights that come with it.  We know this from the boomer backlash over GI generation and their "sacrifices".  It's what drove those 2 generations apart for a lifetime.  Why cant see see this coming?

[Eric the Green]

(05-28-2020, 08:52 PM)TheNomad Wrote: This is an existential question and not meant to create controversy, per se, except where it's brought.

What is the purpose of the mask?

When my state mandated them, I was unaware of it on the first day, and went into the grocery store without one - as I had been.  Someone confronted me from behind their own mask and in a hateful, orderly tone said to me in front of others waiting in like

"BRAVE no mask"

Now, you can interpret that any way you want to.  But what the person said is different from how they said it and what they meant to imply.  The words of the statement said I must be brave to not be wearing it.  However, the intent was to shame me.

Shaming someone in this manner, to me, conveys fear of the shamer than I might be transmitting the virus to them.

Calling me brave would mean exactly what it says - that I am brave and do not fear THEM infecting me.

Since there is right now a national rift over the mask thing, I need other people to give input on this.

Please do not say "it's both" because when I ask this question, I am immediately reminded of my own, and personal, encounter when someone actually did confront me.  Through these times of confusion, I am finding more and more there are no "truths" or "realities" when so much is unknown.  If you think everything is so clear, maybe you shouldn't respond here.  All that does is auto-negate those who might disagree with your views.

These are dangerous times, but under that sub-heading of DANGER there is MUCH than remains questionable.  We as human beings are here to discuss among ourselves what we experience in daily life.  That is sometimes all we can do.

edit sorry I forgot to include the  very thing that made me want to post this.  I am reading a lot about how wearing the mask is about "loving your neighbor" and helping keep them safe.  But time after time I see many more things with the exact statement from witnesses of others not wearing it "they dont care about us".

This is confusing.  I think people are a lot more selfish than they would want to admit.  It's about them.  The rights of others - the existential right - to risk themselves if they want to, that's on the hook for the risk of the fearful.  The fearful should never win over the rights of the masses.  We lose every time this happens.

"I am afraid of something you are doing/not doing, so let's pass a law to make you do it so I feel safe"

that never works and is not a sane thing to consider.  In reality it looks great, tho.  In "reality" of a pandemic it looks great.  But the next generation is going to shame us for giving away the rights that come with it.  We know this from the boomer backlash over GI generation and their "sacrifices".  It's what drove those 2 generations apart for a lifetime.  Why cant see see this coming?

The shame was correct. But the shame belongs most of all to our Republican government and its free-market ideology. And of course to all those who vote and support it.

A correct government and society would have seen to it that masks were distributed free, and fast. And the markets that you go to that require you to wear a mask, but don't supply it, what's up with that? Shame on them.

Yes, if you have access to a mask, and don't wear it, then yes you may be acting selfishly, because you don't care whether you may be infected, and don't care if you therefore infect others. But that does not excuse someone for shaming you; that is not polite, and the one shaming you is driven by fear. So I don't shame you, and I wouldn't if I saw you or others not wearing a mask. I couldn't wear one for a while myself because I didn't have one. So I just write and describe things as I see them. It's possible in some 4th turning societies like the French Reign of Terror (and some permanently 4th-turning societies like Cuba or North Korea) that citizens not only shame but report on their neighbors. Watch committees and such. I hope we don't go that far. We are too liberty-oriented for that.

We are in a fourth turning. I'm sure you know that means that the value of upholding the needs of the community is beginning to overtake the value of asserting our individual rights, such as an existential right to risk yourself if you want to. There is no such right, even in 2nd and 3rd turnings, if such behavior also risks the lives of others.

[pbrower2a]

Many people have COVID-19 without symptoms but can spread it nonetheless. Nobody knows who has it and who doesn't unless someone is getting medical treatment for it. Masks prevent the spread of COVID-19 by people who have it but have no idea that they have it.

[TheNomad]

(05-29-2020, 12:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The shame was correct. But the shame belongs most of all to our Republican government and its free-market ideology. And of course to all those who vote and support it.

A correct government and society would have seen to it that masks were distributed free, and fast. And the markets that you go to that require you to wear a mask, but don't supply it, what's up with that? Shame on them.

Yes, if you have access to a mask, and don't wear it, then yes you may be acting selfishly, because you don't care whether you may be infected, and don't care if you therefore infect others. But that does not excuse someone for shaming you; that is not polite, and the one shaming you is driven by fear. So I don't shame you, and I wouldn't if I saw you or others not wearing a mask. I couldn't wear one for a while myself because I didn't have one. So I just write and describe things as I see them. It's possible in some 4th turning societies like the French Reign of Terror (and some permanently 4th-turning societies like Cuba or North Korea) that citizens not only shame but report on their neighbors. Watch committees and such. I hope we don't go that far. We are too liberty-oriented for that.

We are in a fourth turning. I'm sure you know that means that the value of upholding the needs of the community is beginning to overtake the value of asserting our individual rights, such as an existential right to risk yourself if you want to. There is no such right, even in 2nd and 3rd turnings, if such behavior also risks the lives of others.

First, I am not one calling the virus a hoax or saying it's a political creation to remove the president.  I need to get that clear.  I have been mistaken as such on-line because I often take the more controversial road to things instead of the simple one.  It seems to me, the ones with their faces covered are the most protected.  So, they want MORE protection by making everyone around them wear something?  It doesn't make sense.  It's someone having sex demanding others wear the condom.  Or is it the other way around?  Like I said, it makes no sense anymore.

I continue to uphold this whole thing has less sense than sense.  We have been driven into a fear-based civilization and it happened in no less than even a few months of time.  If that does not bother people, what will?  I also read the origin of the phrase SOCIAL DISTANCING comes from a term in the 1950s that was originally used to let people know how to distinguish themselves from the "lower classes" and had absolutely nothing to do with health.

Further, there was a similar Global Pandemic in the 1960s while hippes were bathing in mud and not at all social distancing and many more died in Vietnam than over than pandemic.  I could put sources here, but aren't we beyond that now?  We have finally reached the place where sources don't even matter.  Because those sources may contradict "realities" of those who do not agree with or believe them.  We live in the era of complete BUBBLES and what is true or not true, real or not real has no bearing on basically anything.  We blame the president for doing this, and his ilk, but I see many who are doing that from different sides.

Back to the mask. 

I have read it's about protecting others.  But as I say, people who choose to wear a hazmat suit are much more likely to be protected than those who do not wear one.  But now they want to pass edicts to force those around them to wear it because they feel afraid.

I must admit, your logic is sound about how the 4th turning goes and how individual "rights" come to have almost no bearing.  I definitely agree with that and I'm sad I have to live through this hell.  It IS hell.  My life and the lives of others have been so disrupted and who knows how it will turn out?  We will get through it, but I feel as with past turnings we may look back in shame at the QUICK choices we made that damaged our civilization for generations and beyond.

This is why I have to - as much as I VERY MUCH dislike the president, even to hatred - he is the only one that has taken the alternative view.  As stupid as his slants have been, I don't see many others who spoke of re-opening or talked of hope or talked about WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER.  I feel like had this been Biden or maybe even Obama, they would just incur us all to wear the mask, stay home and WAIT.  Human beings cannot live that way.  Even if it may be a reality, there needs to be some existential hope of when it's over.  As stupid and foolish as this president has been in so many ways, I feel he at least provided that. 

Now, I will boldly claim myself to be pretty tolerant and REAL to have said that.  Not many people I know will "drift the aisle" or parade with fools openly even if they happen to inwardly chime with something that idiot is doing.  Not many.  I'll take the props for that now, thank you.

As for the government providing masks to all stores, I find that unrealistic.

Lastly, I have found myself chiming with the idea this president has left a lot of things to the states instead of mandating them from the oval offices.  Then, some call that cowardly and lacking in leadership.  It seems sometimes, one cannot "win".

To summate, I have almost a life-long hatred for that man and in no way desire to stand up for anything he has or is doing.  But I have the fortitude to say it when it may ring true to me.

As for masks, fear should never be allowed to win over choice.  Tell the pregnant lady my penis says she should not abort.  It's the same thing.  I have nothing to do with her choice to do it or not do it.  The pigs in masks should take ALL the comfort they need and wrap themselves in saran to feel safer of they want to, but don't tread on my freedom to not care if that's what I feel. 

As for those I choose to ignore, you are ignorant fucks and I CHOOSE not to respond to you here.  The moderator is equally ignorant for making posts available to those you choose to put on ignore.  Some of you have problems.  Don't we all.  But STOP responding to me.  I do not desire to HEAR you or to even know you exist.  You know who you are.  Just stop.  It's like a goddamned chat rapist when you do not wish to experience someone and the frakking mod makes their shit visible on your screen.  Who does that?

[TheNomad]

I have read it's about protecting others.  But as I say, people who choose to wear a hazmat suit are much more likely to be protected than those who do not wear one.  But now they want to pass edicts to force those around them to wear it because they feel afraid.

I think this may have been the raw intention of the thread. ↑ why the duplicity?  So many times and I am not joking I read a lot of news, someone is interviewed about "look those people dont have masks on" and the interviewed person says in these exact words

"THEY dont care about US"

I mean, to most it is obvious.  I don't like lies for social engineering, it's that plain.

Those people have the right to loathe anyone for not caring about them.  Or, their perception anyone is not caring about them.  At the same time, I get their fear of the unknown.  When their fear infracts on others, it should not exist.  I also recognize in the 4t this is to be expected.  Can't I express my hatred?  For what it makes me feel subjugated and owned when I have to look over my mask to read my grocery list?  Or that I can't express to someone whose cart we almost hit with a smile?  IT FRAKKING MATTERS

If those things don't matter to you, how can I be with you?

The fact is, knowing what I think I do, I do not feel safer with a mask.  It's exactly like hiding under the desk when the bomb comes.  I have a right to face that prospect as an adult not as a child in school.

Do I have these rights?  Are they given to me?  Are we now in the process of giving them away?

[Eric the Green]

(05-30-2020, 01:38 AM)TheNomad Wrote: I have read it's about protecting others.  But as I say, people who choose to wear a hazmat suit are much more likely to be protected than those who do not wear one.  But now they want to pass edicts to force those around them to wear it because they feel afraid.

I think this may have been the raw intention of the thread. ↑ why the duplicity?  So many times and I am not joking I read a lot of news, someone is interviewed about "look those people dont have masks on" and the interviewed person says in these exact words

"THEY dont care about US"

I mean, to most it is obvious.  I don't like lies for social engineering, it's that plain.

Those people have the right to loathe anyone for not caring about them.  Or, their perception anyone is not caring about them.  At the same time, I get their fear of the unknown.  When their fear infracts on others, it should not exist.  I also recognize in the 4t this is to be expected.  Can't I express my hatred?  For what it makes me feel subjugated and owned when I have to look over my mask to read my grocery list?  Or that I can't express to someone whose cart we almost hit with a smile?  IT FRAKKING MATTERS

If those things don't matter to you, how can I be with you?

The fact is, knowing what I think I do, I do not feel safer with a mask.  It's exactly like hiding under the desk when the bomb comes.  I have a right to face that prospect as an adult not as a child in school.

Do I have these rights?  Are they given to me?  Are we now in the process of giving them away?

People call it fear. It was never fear, it was precaution, and concern for others. No-one ever had the right to endanger others. I made that point clear already.

Regardless of what you feel, it does make you safer than hiding under a desk during a nuclear attack. It is not fun to wear a mask, and I understand your feelings, but it is not an infringement on your rights.

More Americans have died in the USA from this pandemic than Americans killed in Vietnam. The deaths in the world from this pandemic don't yet equal the number of Vietnamese killed in Vietnam.

If we had early on been made to "wait," as Obama or Biden would have made us do, this pandemic would be all but over by now. Trump is the one dragging it out by inaction and lack of national leadership, and "leaving it with the states" when they have less ability to meet this crisis because of their budget constraints. Only the federal government can act on this effectively. A national strategy was needed, using the war production act, including getting free masks made and making them available in every store and government building and in every hospital and health center. If we are required to wear masks, they should be made available. Otherwise, how can people wear them?

Hatred for Trump should be higher because of his policies and statements on coronavirus, and in fact his poll numbers are dropping.

[Warren Dew]

(05-28-2020, 08:52 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Shaming someone in this manner, to me, conveys fear of the shamer than I might be transmitting the virus to them.

Calling me brave would mean exactly what it says - that I am brave and do not fear THEM infecting me.

It has been established that a substantial proportion of people who catch Covid-19 get only mild or no symptoms.  They go about their lives as one would with a cold, but in the process infect other people.  This is one of the ways Covid-19 spreads.

Surgical masks reduce virus shedding by a factor of 3.4 and cloth masks do something similar.  It's possible that if everyone would just wear a mask all the time the reduction in how much they infect other people would would largely or completely eliminate the pandemic without much or any additional mitigation required.  Certainly everyone wearing a mask would help greatly.

However, wearing a mask protects other people from you; it doesn't protect you from other people.  In your particular situation, all the other people wearing masks were protecting you, and your not wearing a mask was exposing them to risk.

So your first line above was correct.

However, a lot of people would consider saying "you're putting us all at risk by not wearing a mask" to be impolite, so they say something that makes no sense factually, but seems to fit socially, which is a standard neurotypical behavior.  That may be what you were seeing in your second line above.

It's also possible that they thought that you were intentionally refusing to wear a mask and they could convince you to wear one by intimating that it would protect you, assuming that you would be selfish and refuse to wear it if you knew it only protected others.

And it's also possible that they were just clueless.

[Warren Dew]

I see Eric has turned this into some kind of political thing. The truth is, both blue and red political advocates were telling people not to wear masks early on, red because they don't like governmental restraint even when collective action is needed, and blue because they wanted the pandemic to get worse and destroy the economy, giving them a better chance to win in November. Masks are not a political thing.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-30-2020, 09:26 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: I see Eric has turned this into some kind of political thing.  The truth is, both blue and red political advocates were telling people not to wear masks early on, red because they don't like governmental restraint even when collective action is needed, and blue because they wanted the pandemic to get worse and destroy the economy, giving them a better chance to win in November.  Masks are not a political thing.

The bolded line indicates a bit of demonization.  I do not recognize myself in it, or anyone I know.  It is just Warren misunderstanding or mischaracterizing again, digging at those he disagrees with by any means possible, no matter how absurd it makes him look.

But I also think masks are a political thing.  Trump has made it so, if nothing else.  Why do you think he does not like to be photographed wearing one, in spite of intense hypochondria?  It has become a sign of bravado, of loyalty to the unraveling mind set, of denying the reality of what is going on.  If you are making a point that you would rather kill people than suffer a mild inconvenience, you are making a statement.

[TheNomad]

masks are not a political thing? They arent a scientific thing either UNLESS you believe they are. I'm sorry if you dont agree, thats how it is. THis virus has been decribed to us in so many different ways, to the point where it may be here forever and that means masks forever with no immunity or vaccine. You want to do this for the rest of your life? I dont. If you are Rush Limbaugh you dont care because you are at death's door. It's isnt about you. At least, it shouldn't be. Therefore, what we dont know about a pandemic should not dictate whether I wear a mask or not.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-30-2020, 08:46 PM)TheNomad Wrote: masks are not a political thing?  They arent a scientific thing either UNLESS you believe they are.  I'm sorry if you dont agree, thats how it is.  THis virus has been decribed to us in so many different ways, to the point where it may be here forever and that means masks forever with no immunity or vaccine.  You want to do this for the rest of your life?  I dont.  If you are Rush Limbaugh you dont care because you are at death's door.  It's isnt about you.  At least, it shouldn't be.  Therefore, what we dont know about a pandemic should not dictate whether I wear a mask or not.

Masks are indeed a scientific thing. So says the CDC. You believe yourself a greater expert? You must follow the Orange One, who doesn't wear a mask in public places, but does when out of sight of media. That is a sure enough sign that they have become a political thing, and that the Orange One thinks they are a scientific thing.

[TheNomad]

(05-30-2020, 09:27 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-30-2020, 08:46 PM)TheNomad Wrote: masks are not a political thing?  They arent a scientific thing either UNLESS you believe they are.  I'm sorry if you dont agree, thats how it is.  THis virus has been decribed to us in so many different ways, to the point where it may be here forever and that means masks forever with no immunity or vaccine.  You want to do this for the rest of your life?  I dont.  If you are Rush Limbaugh you dont care because you are at death's door.  It's isnt about you.  At least, it shouldn't be.  Therefore, what we dont know about a pandemic should not dictate whether I wear a mask or not.

Masks are indeed a scientific thing.  So says the CDC.  You believe yourself a greater expert?  You must follow the Orange One, who doesn't wear a mask in public places, but does when out of sight of media.  That is a sure enough sign that they have become a political thing, and that the Orange One thinks they are a scientific thing.

You believe in CDC theory and numbers and reports.  But we have heard so much more than does not align with what CDC is saying.  Sources are irrelevant now because people just point to some VCC or GHS or GGHB or GHG and say "I believe that".  I am also saying they may not be totally correct in what they know currently.  There is a lot of unknown but you dont want to admit that.

There is also pretty much fact no one knows how this will turn out or what it will look like in a year or two on how this thing affects civilization whether or not masks or worn.  How many of us will die whether we do anything at all.  Unknown.  No one can say.  But you want to alter all that we are on a whim to possibly never be the same on the hope that containment in the present will save anyone later.

If I am a person who can attain immunity, I am the problem?  I know, I could be wearing clothing that has it and will kill others so I have to wear a body condom.

[pbrower2a]

It is for the safety of others, especially of one has COVID-19 and does not know it. Masks may give some protection against contracting the disease.

Another factor: in this time putting your hands directly to your mouth or nose (as when either itches) is one of the most effective ways of getting COVID-19. If having a mask on prevents that, then such is good.

The only things that I see a mask making impossible are eating, drinking (unless through a straw), smoking, or oral sex. You can speak and even sing through the mask.

[Warren Dew]

(05-30-2020, 01:03 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I do not recognize myself in it, or anyone I know.

None are so blind as those that will not see.  Obviously you aren't going to be willing to see that in yourself.  It doesn't mean it isn't there.

(05-30-2020, 08:46 PM)TheNomad Wrote: masks are not a political thing?  They arent a scientific thing either UNLESS you believe they are....  You want to do this for the rest of your life?

Contrary to the belief of leftists, science isn't about what you believe; it's about objective truth.  People have done experiments showing masks reduce virus shedding by a factor of 3.4. This isn't a model based on assumptions.

Alternatively, try explaining how Pacific Rim nations like Japan have done so much better than the US and Europe. The main difference is that they are much more willing to use masks early.

But you know what?  You don't have to believe the science.  You said your state has a requirement, so wear a mask to avoid getting fined or jailed.

I'd much rather wear a mask for the rest of my life than never be able to go out of my house for the rest of my life.

[TheNomad]

(05-31-2020, 01:40 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: I'd much rather wear a mask for the rest of my life than never be able to go out of my house for the rest of my life.

This is bizarre because you want to wear the mask because you want to go out some day.  You focus on transmission of something which is so unknown in affects and immunization factor and "shedding" basically forever.  So, you are committing to the mask because you maybe will wear the mask forever.  It's a bizarre thing to say.  If the virus is as potent as is supposed, you are just slowing down the "bomb" and making it take a lot longer to destroy the human race.  I am sorry if you can't hear that but I believe it may be true.

Also, I am currently directly affected by a CDC statute in my daily life for health reasons.  And I know based on that the CDC does have a political agenda.  I couldn't say that if I didn't have this situation.  It's about medication.  Anyone who says the CDC is not in part political is very mistaken.  I have had medications commanded by the CDC and regulations change depending on who controls the white house or senate.  It's happened from Bush through this one.  I've paid attention.  I DO pay attention.

[Warren Dew]

(05-31-2020, 02:01 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2020, 01:40 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: I'd much rather wear a mask for the rest of my life than never be able to go out of my house for the rest of my life.

This is bizarre because you want to wear the mask because you want to go out some day.  You focus on transmission of something which is so unknown in affects and immunization factor and "shedding" basically forever.  So, you are committing to the mask because you maybe will wear the mask forever.  It's a bizarre thing to say.  If the virus is as potent as is supposed, you are just slowing down the "bomb" and making it take a lot longer to destroy the human race.  I am sorry if you can't hear that but I believe it may be true.

It won't destroy the human race.  Covid-19 basically doesn't cause deaths in children and young adults.  At worst, it will just kill people at a younger age.  But, I'd rather have those extra years of life, as I think most people would.

Quote:Also, I am currently directly affected by a CDC statute in my daily life for health reasons.  And I know based on that the CDC does have a political agenda.  I couldn't say that if I didn't have this situation.  It's about medication.  Anyone who says the CDC is not in part political is very mistaken.  I have had medications commanded by the CDC and regulations change depending on who controls the white house or senate.  It's happened from Bush through this one.  I've paid attention.  I DO pay attention.

The CDC is very political.  The CDC was telling us not to wear masks two months ago, and now recommends masks.  Obviously that wasn't based on established science.

The data was available two months ago that showed masks were effective.  Personally, I was advocating them then.  It just took a while for mask wearing to become so painfully obvious that the government could no longer ignore it.

[David Horn]

(05-31-2020, 02:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: ...  The CDC was telling us not to wear masks two months ago, and now recommends masks.  Obviously that wasn't based on established science...

I don't remember any time that the CDC recommended against masks.

[pbrower2a]

Masks allow us to go more places and do more things safely -- and to do certain work that without such protection would be extremely dangerous due to the virus.

New cases of COVID-19 seem to be on the decline in America... finally. This said, people will still do stupid things and get exposed.

[TheNomad]

(05-31-2020, 02:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: It won't destroy the human race.  Covid-19 basically doesn't cause deaths in children and young adults.  At worst, it will just kill people at a younger age.  But, I'd rather have those extra years of life, as I think most people would.

Who told you that?  Who told you it won't destroy everything or most of everything?  Would the whole world be told to STOP and not go anywhere if it was not that dangerous?  Are you thinking clearly?  What we have been told is equivalent to the bomb coming from Red Russia and masks are the same as hiding under the desk.

[Warren Dew]

(05-31-2020, 04:22 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(05-31-2020, 02:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: It won't destroy the human race.  Covid-19 basically doesn't cause deaths in children and young adults.  At worst, it will just kill people at a younger age.  But, I'd rather have those extra years of life, as I think most people would.

Would the whole world be told to STOP and not go anywhere if it was not that dangerous?

It's dangerous for old people, and old people are in charge.