The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

With the idea of small government, there was a lot of defunding of domestic spending, especially in areas like suicide prevention, homelessness, substance abuse, mental health, etc…  The net result was often a shifting all of the above onto the police, the treating all of the above as law enforcement problems.  If the use of leaded gas led to an increase in lawlessness, violence, impatience and the like, perhaps this was necessary, but if so the shift ought to be reversed today.

CNN reviews a program that went against that trend, one city with a program that complemented the law enforcement approach.  In these days with a push to defund the police, to renew traditional services provided by government, it may show a blueprint.

[pbrower2a]

(07-04-2020, 12:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 08:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Want a real defense of your property?

Again, you get the basic partnership rules wrong.  In the hunter gatherer days, the dog had superior ability to run an animal down, and had superior smell and other means to detect the approach of an enemy.  Man, specifically an armed man, had the superior combat ability.  While either might succeed on their own, together they were a most formidable pair.

By expecting the dog to have superior combat ability to an armed man, you are breaking the contract between species, putting the dog in a situation where he has no chance.

In the case of the dog as a defender, the dog is protecting firearms from thieves. If the dogs get to the would-be gun-thief before the gun-thief can get to the guns, then the would-be thief gets to experience an animal that has much in common with a lion, the Big Cat most similar in behavior to a large dog. Dogs can also bite the wrist attached to a hand in possession of a gun... and even the most dedicated criminal wimps out. Firearms are expensive in South Africa, and they are obvious targets for theft as the capital investment for violent criminals. 

The dogs are protecting guns locked down, but as everyone knows, any crook who has the time in which to defeat a lock can get what he wants. A dog takes away that time and turns a seeming opportunity into a consummately-dangerous situation. 

Dogs may be Man's Best Friend, but they are among the last enemies that one one would want -- especially if the dog is in a pack.   Dogs have far keener senses, and they know how cowardly, clumsy, and vulnerable we really are in ways that even bears and Big Cats don't know. 

So here is how the food chain lines up between three large predators in South Africa

day  night  urban

gun* lion   gun*
dog  gun*   dog
man dog    man
lion  man    (no lions)

"Gun" is shorthand for "armed human", the definitive superpredator in all land environments.

Lions fear humans by day.  Even before there were firearms, they dreaded spears. Color vision makes humans able to see well-camouflaged creatures  (at least for color-blind animals such as the deer-like creatures that are the bulk of lion food. But the tables turn at night, when humans with very poor night vision become easy prey for lions. Almost all incidents of man-eating by lions are at night, especially when the moon is set. Lions flee humans by day, because humans in lion country often have firearms. 

"Armed human" is the top predator in practically all environments unless something can disarm the armed person. Ordinarily the dog is a collaborator in a hunt with an armed human, so the dog will not get in the way. South Africa does not have tigers or bears, but it does have lions. 

If a dog is unlikely to bite the hand that feeds him, it will bite the hand (or wrist or forearm) of someone who intends to do harm.  Or -- multiple dogs can overpower a man, knocking him to the ground much as would a lion. Whether humans are on the dog's menu or not is ambiguous at best, but being overpowered by animals that can inculcate that fear and in the meantime make life unpleasant with bites and barks... well, a crook is going to need to be rescued. Better the police than Canis leo, Canis puma, or Canis ursus.  

Criminals fear dogs, which explains the effectiveness of K-9 units in arresting criminals.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-03-2020, 03:29 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-01-2020, 12:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-01-2020, 02:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How many America blacks, whites, yellows, browns and reds have the same basic American values and rights as me today? I'm suggesting that a clash between Americans of all kinds and the Left-wing is inevitable at this point and once the cultural clash begins it's not going to stop until the Left-wing is destroyed. You are on the wrong side of history and seem to be deaf, dumb and blind too. So, I hope have fun trying to survive an ugly 4T.

We can't put up a statue of our World War II heroes either because the country was still legally segregated during World War II and we have Japanese people living here who might/could get upset or view them as racists. The time is coming for minorities to decide whether they prefer to be viewed as blacks, Hispanics, browns or whatever else forever and ever or whether they prefer to be viewed Americans become part of the country where none of that matters

You still do not define "American values and rights," which proves that you don't know what these are. Of course, we know you think we have a right to bear arms. If that's all you are concerned about, then you can go to the OK Corale and have your fun, and I don't care.

You refer to a cultural clash now too, but you do not define the cultures that are clashing.

One's ancestry still matters if one is still discriminated against on that basis, which is still the case. But slavery is not legal, and those who fought and were heroes in WWII were not fighting for slavery. They were not traitors. 

But you support venerating and memorializing traitors who set up a new country and made war on and invaded the United States in order protect slavery. That makes you complicit in their fight.

You are on the wrong side of history and seem to be deaf, dumb and blind too. So, I hope you have fun trying to survive an ugly 4T.

We have the right to bear arms and value our guns too. So, there's a good example of the American rights and values that I'm talking about that people like you don't seem to recognize or understand they're direct relationship to you as an American citizen these days.

Yeah, I know, and you don't seem to realize how little these so-called rights mean to people like me, and how ludicrous it is to think that guns have any relationship at all our rights as American citizens.

Quote:Oh that's right, you've already let go of them and embraced global citizenship and whatever values are imposed and rights eliminated by global institutions and foreign powers.  I'm concerned about all our rights as citizens and all our advancement as a nation today. I view today's Left as being a direct threat to both these days. Right now, the folks who are at greatest risk are the more conservative Democratic population of Americans who are being targeted and persecuted by those on your side right now. Like I said, your shitty mobs, leftist groups and clueless/ powerless politicians better be really careful and start showing all of us something valuable about them that's worth keeping or they're going to find themselves being lumped in with the mobs and leftist groups that we see targeting, terrorizing and bullying American people/voters that we know today. So, how many 2nd Amendment deniers among the Democratic are 2nd Amendment believers/ supporters today. How many knee jerk Democrats who went along for years are waking up and seeing the direct threat to them and their communities that we are seeing today. I'm much better prepared and more naturally suited to survive an ugly 4t. I've been openly communicating, showing you and proving to you that for many years now.

You should read more of brower's essays, and learn what terms really mean.

I don't plan to show you anything that you would find valuable. I expect many of us Democrats would feel the same. You have proven only that all you value is violence. That is the extent of your "American values."

I look forward to the day when real Americans will repeal the 2nd Amendment. That doesn't mean that all Americans will have no guns. It only means that we will be able to deal with them in a sensible way, something entirely beyond your comprehension.

I don't have time or the desire to listen to PB's worthless preaching or motherly advice. You're wrong. I fully understand how little those particular rights matter to foolish people like you these days. I also understand how ludicrous it for people like you to think that guns had nothing to do with your rights or the protection of your lives and property here and how foolish you are to give them up and support the reduction of the amount of armed police and other branches of law enforcement during the early days of a cultural civil war that's been brewing and dividing the country for years.

[Eric the Green]

"any crook who has the time in which to defeat a lock can get what he want"

That is the salient point to me. Guns are unsafe for the owner to possess unless they are locked, and probably even then. But being locked, it takes too long to unlock and use against an invading armed robber.

There are many better ways than a risky shootout or killing an unarmed intruder for self-protection, especially in urban areas.

[Eric the Green]

(07-05-2020, 02:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 03:29 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-01-2020, 12:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-01-2020, 02:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How many America blacks, whites, yellows, browns and reds have the same basic American values and rights as me today? I'm suggesting that a clash between Americans of all kinds and the Left-wing is inevitable at this point and once the cultural clash begins it's not going to stop until the Left-wing is destroyed. You are on the wrong side of history and seem to be deaf, dumb and blind too. So, I hope have fun trying to survive an ugly 4T.

We can't put up a statue of our World War II heroes either because the country was still legally segregated during World War II and we have Japanese people living here who might/could get upset or view them as racists. The time is coming for minorities to decide whether they prefer to be viewed as blacks, Hispanics, browns or whatever else forever and ever or whether they prefer to be viewed Americans become part of the country where none of that matters

You still do not define "American values and rights," which proves that you don't know what these are. Of course, we know you think we have a right to bear arms. If that's all you are concerned about, then you can go to the OK Corale and have your fun, and I don't care.

You refer to a cultural clash now too, but you do not define the cultures that are clashing.

One's ancestry still matters if one is still discriminated against on that basis, which is still the case. But slavery is not legal, and those who fought and were heroes in WWII were not fighting for slavery. They were not traitors. 

But you support venerating and memorializing traitors who set up a new country and made war on and invaded the United States in order protect slavery. That makes you complicit in their fight.

You are on the wrong side of history and seem to be deaf, dumb and blind too. So, I hope you have fun trying to survive an ugly 4T.

We have the right to bear arms and value our guns too. So, there's a good example of the American rights and values that I'm talking about that people like you don't seem to recognize or understand they're direct relationship to you as an American citizen these days.

Yeah, I know, and you don't seem to realize how little these so-called rights mean to people like me, and how ludicrous it is to think that guns have any relationship at all our rights as American citizens.

Quote:Oh that's right, you've already let go of them and embraced global citizenship and whatever values are imposed and rights eliminated by global institutions and foreign powers.  I'm concerned about all our rights as citizens and all our advancement as a nation today. I view today's Left as being a direct threat to both these days. Right now, the folks who are at greatest risk are the more conservative Democratic population of Americans who are being targeted and persecuted by those on your side right now. Like I said, your shitty mobs, leftist groups and clueless/ powerless politicians better be really careful and start showing all of us something valuable about them that's worth keeping or they're going to find themselves being lumped in with the mobs and leftist groups that we see targeting, terrorizing and bullying American people/voters that we know today. So, how many 2nd Amendment deniers among the Democratic are 2nd Amendment believers/ supporters today. How many knee jerk Democrats who went along for years are waking up and seeing the direct threat to them and their communities that we are seeing today. I'm much better prepared and more naturally suited to survive an ugly 4t. I've been openly communicating, showing you and proving to you that for many years now.

You should read more of brower's essays, and learn what terms really mean.

I don't plan to show you anything that you would find valuable. I expect many of us Democrats would feel the same. You have proven only that all you value is violence. That is the extent of your "American values."

I look forward to the day when real Americans will repeal the 2nd Amendment. That doesn't mean that all Americans will have no guns. It only means that we will be able to deal with them in a sensible way, something entirely beyond your comprehension.

I don't have time or the desire to listen to PB's worthless preaching or motherly advice. You're wrong. I fully understand how little those particular rights matter to foolish people like you these days. I also understand how ludicrous it for people like you to think that guns had nothing to do with your rights or the protection of your lives and property here and how foolish you are to give them up and support the reduction of the amount of armed police and other branches of law enforcement during the early days of a cultural civil war that's been brewing and dividing the country for years.

Well, you do have a point about an approaching civil war. If that really gets going, then being armed may be necessary for those who fight it. I expect, however, that it will be you guys and not the "rioters" that you so fear who will rebel against a Democratic administration that will pass gun control. That is the prediction I have made and said here for years and years. If it happens this way, then we on the Left will have the state on our side and will be able to rely on the national army to put down your revolt. I can be an arm-chair fighter instead of an armed one and watch you guys get crushed with glee.

I suspect you would do well to listen to brower or anyone else who can talk you out of helping to foment this civil war. It will save you time and trouble in the long run to drop some of your fanaticism and anger and moderate your views just enough to sit out this 4T safely, and emerge into a 1T that will be more to your liking later on.

I have not "given up" my gun rights or any guns because I never had them. My Dad is a role model for this, having been a pacifist and conscientious objector in World War II, co-founder of Pacifica Radio, and active against guns. He did not believe in violence to solve problems. His views may have been a bit extreme, I admit, but so were mine in a different way back in the late sixties, so I can't complain. I started participating in the movement for gun control the year after you were born, after RFK was killed with one. There's no chance that I would ever own a gun or suppose that my rights depend on this.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-05-2020, 02:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "any crook who has the time in which to defeat a lock can get what he want"

That is the salient point to me. Guns are unsafe for the owner to possess unless they are locked, and probably even then. But being locked, it takes too long to unlock and use against an invading armed robber.

There are many better ways than a risky shootout or killing an unarmed intruder for self-protection, especially in urban areas.

I have guns that are locked up and a couple that aren't locked up and a dog that seems to be mean and comes across to strangers as ferocious too. He's a good dog and I'd kill the armed blue minded son of a bitch or group of blue minded son of a bitches who viewed him as a minor threat or inconvenience to them and their goals. Like I said, the blue mod stopped short and stray outside their safe zones last time. Which mean, they're either smart and understand human nature and boundaries or they lucked out last time.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-05-2020, 02:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 02:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 03:29 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-01-2020, 12:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You still do not define "American values and rights," which proves that you don't know what these are. Of course, we know you think we have a right to bear arms. If that's all you are concerned about, then you can go to the OK Corale and have your fun, and I don't care.

You refer to a cultural clash now too, but you do not define the cultures that are clashing.

One's ancestry still matters if one is still discriminated against on that basis, which is still the case. But slavery is not legal, and those who fought and were heroes in WWII were not fighting for slavery. They were not traitors. 

But you support venerating and memorializing traitors who set up a new country and made war on and invaded the United States in order protect slavery. That makes you complicit in their fight.

You are on the wrong side of history and seem to be deaf, dumb and blind too. So, I hope you have fun trying to survive an ugly 4T.

We have the right to bear arms and value our guns too. So, there's a good example of the American rights and values that I'm talking about that people like you don't seem to recognize or understand they're direct relationship to you as an American citizen these days.

Yeah, I know, and you don't seem to realize how little these so-called rights mean to people like me, and how ludicrous it is to think that guns have any relationship at all our rights as American citizens.

Quote:Oh that's right, you've already let go of them and embraced global citizenship and whatever values are imposed and rights eliminated by global institutions and foreign powers.  I'm concerned about all our rights as citizens and all our advancement as a nation today. I view today's Left as being a direct threat to both these days. Right now, the folks who are at greatest risk are the more conservative Democratic population of Americans who are being targeted and persecuted by those on your side right now. Like I said, your shitty mobs, leftist groups and clueless/ powerless politicians better be really careful and start showing all of us something valuable about them that's worth keeping or they're going to find themselves being lumped in with the mobs and leftist groups that we see targeting, terrorizing and bullying American people/voters that we know today. So, how many 2nd Amendment deniers among the Democratic are 2nd Amendment believers/ supporters today. How many knee jerk Democrats who went along for years are waking up and seeing the direct threat to them and their communities that we are seeing today. I'm much better prepared and more naturally suited to survive an ugly 4t. I've been openly communicating, showing you and proving to you that for many years now.

You should read more of brower's essays, and learn what terms really mean.

I don't plan to show you anything that you would find valuable. I expect many of us Democrats would feel the same. You have proven only that all you value is violence. That is the extent of your "American values."

I look forward to the day when real Americans will repeal the 2nd Amendment. That doesn't mean that all Americans will have no guns. It only means that we will be able to deal with them in a sensible way, something entirely beyond your comprehension.

I don't have time or the desire to listen to PB's worthless preaching or motherly advice. You're wrong. I fully understand how little those particular rights matter to foolish people like you these days. I also understand how ludicrous it for people like you to think that guns had nothing to do with your rights or the protection of your lives and property here and how foolish you are to give them up and support the reduction of the amount of armed police and other branches of law enforcement during the early days of a cultural civil war that's been brewing and dividing the country for years.

Well, you do have a point about an approaching civil war. If that really gets going, then being armed may be necessary for those who fight it. I expect, however, that it will be you guys and not the "rioters" that you so fear who will rebel against a Democratic administration that will pass gun control. That is the prediction I have made and said here for years and years. If it happens this way, then we on the Left will have the state on our side and will be able to rely on the national army to put down your revolt. I can be an arm-chair fighter instead of an armed one and watch you guys get crushed with glee.

I suspect you would do well to listen to brower or anyone else who can talk you out of helping to foment this civil war. It will save you time and trouble in the long run to drop some of your fanaticism and anger and moderate your views just enough to sit out this 4T safely, and emerge into a 1T that will be more to your liking later on.

I have not "given up" my gun rights or any guns because I never had them. My Dad is a role model for this, having been a pacifist and conscientious objector in World War II, co-founder of Pacifica Radio, and active against guns. He did not believe in violence to solve problems. His views may have been a bit extreme, I admit, but so were mine in a different way back in the late sixties, so I can't complain. I started participating in the movement for gun control the year after you were born, after RFK was killed with one. There's no chance that I would ever own a gun or suppose that my rights depend on this.

It seems like your rioters and property destroyers or conglomeration of gangs are trying to start one with us right now. I hope for YOUR sake and the sake of the petty, self serving DEMOCRATS in office and their families and all the recipients whose lives are dependent upon them that they're unable to succeed because we're ready for it more than we were when Move On. Org showed up and reared its ugly head politically. Like I said, you better be careful about who you are doing business with and who you are doing business for and whose views you are promoting and which groups you are supporting these days.

[pbrower2a]

Eric -- Classic X'er seems to have the idea that there very few ways in which to be American, and all of those involve being like him, looking like him, and believing like him. That of course is too narrow.

He fails to understand as I do why Confederate flags and statues of Confederate leaders could be so offensive to people American by default -- and the 13th, 14th, and 125th Amendments in place for a century and a half. Those Americans are the descendants of people for whom those Confederate leaders waged a war and sacrificed huge amounts of cannon fodder, tax revenue, and honor to keep in bondage. The political heirs of the Confederacy then steadily stripped the rights that freed slaves got until they and their descendants were but shells... until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

If there are memorials to German soldiers of World War II, then those are of the plotters of July 20, 1944, who, had they succeeded, would have put a swift end to the particular horrors of Nazism and sued for peace, putting a swift end to the Nazi nightmare. But those potters failed (they came close to succeeding!) and almost all of them paid with their lives for their courageous deed.

[TnT]

Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-05-2020, 05:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Eric -- Classic X'er seems to have the idea that there very few ways in which to be American, and all of those involve being like him, looking like him, and believing like him.  That of course is too narrow.

He fails to understand as I do why Confederate flags and statues of Confederate leaders could be so offensive to people American by default -- and the 13th, 14th, and 125th Amendments in place for a century and a half. Those Americans are the descendants of people for whom those Confederate leaders waged a war and sacrificed huge amounts of cannon fodder, tax revenue, and honor to keep in bondage. The political heirs of the Confederacy then steadily stripped the rights that freed slaves got until they and their descendants  were but shells... until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

If there are memorials to German soldiers of World War II, then those are of the plotters of July 20, 1944, who, had they succeeded, would have put a swift end to the particular horrors of Nazism and sued for peace, putting a swift end to the Nazi nightmare. But those potters failed (they came close to succeeding!) and almost all of them paid with their lives for their courageous deed.

You're wrong. Classic understands that there are many ways to be American and many ways to prove to others that one is an American and there are many races of Americans these days as well. You're right. The traditional black vs white, north vs south, rich vs poor, haves vs have nots are too vague and way too narrow to go by these days. You can if you want but you'll be crushed by America. Classic also understands that burning an American flag or dissing the American flag during the American anthem isn't a good way to gain American support or gain American sympathy these days either.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-05-2020, 08:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

Just hanging around here, you have to wade through information and disinformation about obsessions with violence, astrology, 'xenophobia' and dogs. Is there a law that partisans can't have weird hobbies and beliefs too?

[Classic-Xer]

(07-05-2020, 08:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

You ever mess with a tough older dude with a beer gut. Hint....I'm pretty sure the dudes with the beer guts can handle themselves and know how fight and want the opportunity to get their hands on your punks. It's amazing how many punks there are walking around these days. I mean, it used to be open season on punks not so long ago. Hint...Moms way ain't working out so well but that's OK as far as the liberals go these days.

[Eric the Green]

(07-05-2020, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 05:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Eric -- Classic X'er seems to have the idea that there very few ways in which to be American, and all of those involve being like him, looking like him, and believing like him.  That of course is too narrow.

He fails to understand as I do why Confederate flags and statues of Confederate leaders could be so offensive to people American by default -- and the 13th, 14th, and 125th Amendments in place for a century and a half. Those Americans are the descendants of people for whom those Confederate leaders waged a war and sacrificed huge amounts of cannon fodder, tax revenue, and honor to keep in bondage. The political heirs of the Confederacy then steadily stripped the rights that freed slaves got until they and their descendants  were but shells... until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

If there are memorials to German soldiers of World War II, then those are of the plotters of July 20, 1944, who, had they succeeded, would have put a swift end to the particular horrors of Nazism and sued for peace, putting a swift end to the Nazi nightmare. But those potters failed (they came close to succeeding!) and almost all of them paid with their lives for their courageous deed.

You're wrong. Classic understands that there are many ways to be American and many ways to prove to others that one is an American and there are many races of Americans these days as well. You're right. The traditional black vs white, north vs south, rich vs poor, haves vs have nots are too vague and way too narrow to go by these days. You can if you want but you'll be crushed by America. Classic also understands that burning an American flag or dissing the American flag during the American anthem isn't a good way to gain American support or gain American sympathy these days either.

That has seemed to changed, although not in your right-wing, Trump-loving circles. Colin Kaepernick has been welcomed back into the NFL, and even the commissioner has apologized to him, and his gesture of kneeling during the national anthem to protest police brutality is being praised and copied instead of knocked now. He was ahead of his time.

The fact that you are worried about these symbols, while you ignore the reality of racial profiling and cops singling out unarmed black men like George Floyd and Elijah McClain for murder, gives broad and powerful hints about where your racial sympathies really lie. Also your defense of confederate monuments does this as well. Trump seemed to cater to the people who say exactly the same things that you do in his speech at Mt. Rushmore yesterday, but it is being condemned as dividing America and as stoking prejudice by many folks, as his approval rating drops to minus 14 points or more.

You still cannot define what you mean by what is American. All you can do is appeal to loyalty to national symbols and feelings of nationalist patriotism. The flag and the anthem can be important symbols, but what do they represent?

[Classic-Xer]

(07-05-2020, 09:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 08:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

Just hanging around here, you have to wade through information and disinformation about obsessions with violence, astrology, 'xenophobia' and dogs.  Is there a law that partisans can't have weird hobbies and beliefs too? 

I don't know, you'll have to ask yourself the same question. I'll give you credit for trying to relate and trying to see things our way but you have shown me many times that you tend to resort or regress back to partisan ways.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-05-2020, 10:00 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 09:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 08:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

Just hanging around here, you have to wade through information and disinformation about obsessions with violence, astrology, 'xenophobia' and dogs.  Is there a law that partisans can't have weird hobbies and beliefs too? 

I don't know, you'll have to ask yourself the same question. I'll give you credit for trying to relate and trying to see things our way but you have shown me many times that you tend to resort or regress back to partisan ways.

I of course did ask the same question.  I have an interest in partisan history, but who doesn’t who frequents this site?  I have an interest in role playing, and I’ll reference it on occasion, but I don’t rail against people who believe in more conventional media, or center arguments on it.  I do use my interest in other theories.  I will fold in principles from civilizations, ages and evolutionary biology, not stick with pure turnings.  Still, using principles other than turnings to advance one view of history seems fair game.  One shouldn’t totally ignore what the main line historians say in following one’s amateur theory.

But accusing people  of  resorting or regressing back to partisan ways goes both ways.  Hanging on to the old values in a crisis heart should give one pause.  The royalists, slaveowners, laissez faire businessmen and isolationists were rather wiped out in previous crisis hearts.  The conservative ways of staying the same when the culture has moved on have been rather decisively crushed.  

The basic lesson of COVUS involves incorporating reality and science into one’s political position as opposed to creating fantasies to justify small government and inaction.  The basic lesson of Black Lives Matter is no longer tolerating the racist violence and  inequality that still exists in modern US culture.  These are among the two basic issues that we have been debating over the length of the unraveling.  It is not hard to anticipate that they will trigger a solid conversion to the new values, and that holders and champions of the old values will find themselves on the outside looking in.  It is a bad time to ignore problems and practice racism.  It will forever after be a bad time to ignore problems and practice racism.

There are aspects of the old values that are worth preserving.  I would accept that certain principles of the new values are looking to triumph, and concentrate on that which should be preserved.  We are going to dwell more on reality.  We are going to become more equal.  However, we do need law and order to complement the drive for equality.  We do need financial efficiency in addressing how we resolve certain things which must be resolved.  

What is not needed is the drive to divide, the drive towards violence.  The crisis will be resolved.  Picture yourself attempting to control the steamroller rather than to fight it.  Otherwise, you are likely to end up pretty flat.

[pbrower2a]

(07-05-2020, 02:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 02:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "any crook who has the time in which to defeat a lock can get what he want"

That is the salient point to me. Guns are unsafe for the owner to possess unless they are locked, and probably even then. But being locked, it takes too long to unlock and use against an invading armed robber.

There are many better ways than a risky shootout or killing an unarmed intruder for self-protection, especially in urban areas.

I have guns that are locked up and a couple that aren't locked up and a dog that seems to be mean and comes across to strangers as ferocious too. He's a good dog and I'd kill the armed blue minded son of a bitch or group of blue minded son of a bitches who viewed him as a minor threat or inconvenience to them and their goals. Like I said, the blue mod stopped short and stray outside their safe zones last time. Which mean, they're either smart and understand human nature and boundaries or they lucked out last time.

People are not criminals because they are on the Left side of the political spectrum. Criminals tend to be greedy, materialistic people who would act ruthlessly in legitimate fields if they got the chance... and having no legitimate means of achieving their dreams often turn to crime.  White offenders tend to be quite reactionary in their political values.

[pbrower2a]

(07-05-2020, 10:00 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 09:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 08:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

Just hanging around here, you have to wade through information and disinformation about obsessions with violence, astrology, 'xenophobia' and dogs.  Is there a law that partisans can't have weird hobbies and beliefs too? 

I don't know, you'll have to ask yourself the same question. I'll give you credit for trying to relate and trying to see things our way but you have shown me many times that you tend to resort or regress back to partisan ways.

Dogs are more reliable than a gun-owner trying to locate a gun and figure out whether he must use it. One can call a dog back; one can't call a bullet back. Dogs, unlike guns, cannot be turned against their owners or loved ones by a criminal who gets a hold of it (actually, it is the dog that gets a nasty hold on a crook. Dogs are far safer than guns.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-06-2020, 12:43 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 10:00 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 09:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 08:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Well, if the pictures of the beer-gut wanna-bes that showed up at Gettysburg this weekend, having been gulled by the very cesspool of information that they subscribe to, have any credibility, I guess I'm not too worried about any "civil war" that these guys foment.

Just hanging around here, you have to wade through information and disinformation about obsessions with violence, astrology, 'xenophobia' and dogs.  Is there a law that partisans can't have weird hobbies and beliefs too? 

I don't know, you'll have to ask yourself the same question. I'll give you credit for trying to relate and trying to see things our way but you have shown me many times that you tend to resort or regress back to partisan ways.

Dogs are more reliable than a gun-owner trying to locate a gun and figure out whether he must use it. One can call a dog back; one can't call a bullet back. Dogs, unlike guns, cannot be turned against their owners or loved ones by a criminal who gets a hold of it (actually, it is the dog that gets a nasty hold on a crook. Dogs are far safer than guns.

See?    I happen not to own a dog, own more than a few book on astrology that haven't been cracked open in decades, and not be xenophobic or violent.  I still have to wade though this junk.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-05-2020, 09:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-05-2020, 05:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Eric -- Classic X'er seems to have the idea that there very few ways in which to be American, and all of those involve being like him, looking like him, and believing like him.  That of course is too narrow.

He fails to understand as I do why Confederate flags and statues of Confederate leaders could be so offensive to people American by default -- and the 13th, 14th, and 125th Amendments in place for a century and a half. Those Americans are the descendants of people for whom those Confederate leaders waged a war and sacrificed huge amounts of cannon fodder, tax revenue, and honor to keep in bondage. The political heirs of the Confederacy then steadily stripped the rights that freed slaves got until they and their descendants  were but shells... until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

If there are memorials to German soldiers of World War II, then those are of the plotters of July 20, 1944, who, had they succeeded, would have put a swift end to the particular horrors of Nazism and sued for peace, putting a swift end to the Nazi nightmare. But those potters failed (they came close to succeeding!) and almost all of them paid with their lives for their courageous deed.

You're wrong. Classic understands that there are many ways to be American and many ways to prove to others that one is an American and there are many races of Americans these days as well. You're right. The traditional black vs white, north vs south, rich vs poor, haves vs have nots are too vague and way too narrow to go by these days. You can if you want but you'll be crushed by America. Classic also understands that burning an American flag or dissing the American flag during the American anthem isn't a good way to gain American support or gain American sympathy these days either.

That has seemed to changed, although not in your right-wing, Trump-loving circles. Colin Kaepernick has been welcomed back into the NFL, and even the commissioner has apologized to him, and his gesture of kneeling during the national anthem to protest police brutality is being praised and copied instead of knocked now. He was ahead of his time.

The fact that you are worried about these symbols, while you ignore the reality of racial profiling and cops singling out unarmed black men like George Floyd and Elijah McClain for murder, gives broad and powerful hints about where your racial sympathies really lie. Also your defense of confederate monuments does this as well. Trump seemed to cater to the people who say exactly the same things that you do in his speech at Mt. Rushmore yesterday, but it is being condemned as dividing America and as stoking prejudice by many folks, as his approval rating drops to minus 14 points or more.

You still cannot define what you mean by what is American. All you can do is appeal to loyalty to national symbols and feelings of nationalist patriotism. The flag and the anthem can be important symbols, but what do they represent?

I don't care about what the NFL decides to do about Colin Kaepernic or whether some team decides to pay him a million to sit on the bench and watch a football game to make themselves look/feel good. I know what I'm going to do this season. I'm going to do something else instead of watching football this season. You shake them down and scare them by placing their most important assets at risk. We hurt them and hurt liberal cities by making matters even worse for them at the same time. You just wait til we start getting more personal and begin refusing services and all kinds of other stuff that neither you, the government or the liberal media has control over. Like I've said, feeding a bunch of liberal fat cats to a bunch of wolves and teaching a bunch of preachy blue movie stars a harsh lesson about the difference us and them. You have an insurance policy and we have one too that we can back with guns. Like I said, have fun during the ugly 4T that we both know is coming.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-06-2020, 01:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You just wait til we start getting more personal and begin refusing services and all kinds of other stuff that neither you, the government or the liberal media has control over.

That was tried by assorted racists prior to the Civil Rights Movement. It used to be quite traditional to deny service at restaurants and hotels, to save the back of the bus for minorities. I didn't think you were that sort of conservative. If you are providing goods or services to the public, you might find the government and liberal media will pay attention. A lot of people do frown on that sort of thing. If you are a church or private club, that is officially another matter, but you will feel the pressure.