The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(07-27-2020, 03:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 03:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 10:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't always like to pay taxes, and I wouldn't like to pay too much. I don't like paying high prices. I'm glad I don't have to pay the extremely high rents that people pay where I live. I understand that you don't want to pay.

Back in 1932, the USA learned, as I see, it, that we need that "free stuff" from the government. Without it, people had been starving and dying by the millions. We Americans learned that we could not rely on businessmen to provide for us, give us jobs, or pay us well. We needed the government to provide work and set up youth conservation corps. We needed unions to make sure we were paid well and were provided with the benefits we needed. We set up social security to provide for ourselves in old age instead of just dying away in some tenement or in some back room in our childrens' house. Now in 2020 we are learning that we need a government to lead in response to a virus, and that because we have forgotten this, 147,000 of our people have needlessly died.

Folks like you since Reagan did not have to live in the upstairs-downstairs, unequal, starving world of 1929-1932, so you forgot the need for a social safety net. But even the Roman Empire had it. Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar, and unto God what is God's. It's really an easy concept. If we are required to contribute something to society, then we all do well. If we rely on voluntary charity, it's sometimes-at-least not enough to meet the need, just as it was not in 1929. Every other developed country is better at this than the USA. They pay high taxes and still have their homes and businesses and have better rights of citizenship than we have. We are a backward country largely because we are stuck with backward states like Alabama and the rest of those states in Dixie and their superior representation in our government; states that allow that "steady stream of poverty" that is like the worst third-world countries.

We do need the police. Maybe some people are going overboard attacking the police these days. I am not one of them. The police, however, have gone overboard in trampling and kneeling on our rights. We need the police, but we need rational and just policies and laws. I'm sorry if some of the police don't want to live up to their responsibilities and follow the law. They can find other work. Those who remain will do their job and we'll all be just fine.

I'm sorry that you have so little sense of justice that you think a flag that represents people being bought and sold is a symbol of American defiance, instead of what it is, a symbol of defiance against America. I'm sorry that you are so blinded by your dislike of paying taxes that you can't even see that you defend a symbol of racism. I can't help you with that. I can only hope that one day that amazing grace will come to you, and like Mr. Newton discovered while traveling on that slave ship and writing that song, that you will see that you have been blind. Most Americans are sickened by what your type of folks do who wave that flag and grin while choking a black man like George Floyd to death. Most Americans are rediscovering that we did not go far enough yet in the sixties, that racists like you still exist, and that you guys need to be disempowered from ruling our country, and your candidates taken out of office.

The Democratic party wasn't into giving away "free stuff" during the the Great Depression. It was into funding public works and building/modernizing American infrastructure. Have you ever seen the Hoover dam or jigged for fish along man made a wing dam on a major river or traveled on a US highway or freeway? I recognize the need for social safety nets and I wish the liberals were capable of saying no (to) the other programs and add on's and expansions and global initiates and global commitments and so forth so that we can properly fund them and keep them available for our use versus trying to fund them along with everything else that the liberals keep committing us to pay for these days.

No that's not true. They gave away money to fund these projects. "emergency food programs were set up to prevent starvation. For instance, surplus agricultural goods were distributed to the poor. Also, a relatively small-scale “food stamp” program was established for needy federal workers."... "This first set of reforms, as previously stated, was an emergency stop-gap measure. From November of 1934 to November of 1936, the Roosevelt Administration implemented a second set of reforms meant to define an ongoing responsibility of the federal government, a responsibility for social welfare similar to that found in European nations.19 The major piece of legislation passed during this period was the Social Security Act of 1935.

This legislation constituted a package of social programs consisting of both insurance and poor relief (later referred to as “public assistance” or “welfare”). With respect to insurance, the act contained both unemployment insurance and old age pensions (commonly known as “Social Security”). Unemployment insurance was very unpopular with business leaders. To illustrate, as late as 1931, Henry Ford persisted in blaming mass unemployment on individual laziness. He claimed there was plenty of work for those who wanted it!20 Yet, packaging unemployment insurance with more popular programs such as old age pensions, Roosevelt was able to pass the legislation. The Social Security Act also contained several federal poor relief programs. Meant to be a continuing federal responsibility, these programs included Old Age Assistance, Aid to the Blind, and Aid to Dependent Children (ADC).21 ADC, as the name suggests, targeted relief to poor children in single parent families. It was not until 1950 that the single parent became officially eligible for assistance also. Note that prior to the New Deal, relief was a tool used by social workers to rehabilitate.22 To get relief, a person had to accept rehabilitation services from a social worker (including a significant dose of moral instruction!) With the New Deal, poor relief became a right of American citizens meeting certain eligibility standards, including of course, financial need. In other words, poor relief became, not a “means” to rehabilitation, but rather, an “end in itself.” The Social Security Act promoted cooperation between the federal government and the states in providing poor relief through the use of “matching funding formulas.”23 That is, for every dollar of state funding expended in the Old Age Assistance, Aid to the Blind, and Aid to Dependent Children programs, the federal government contributed a specified percentage of funding. Yet, the legislation allowed each state to determine eligibility standards and levels of benefits. Also contained in the legislative package were a number of smaller scale health and human service programs.
These included child welfare and maternal health programs in Title V of the act and public health programs in Title VI of the legislation. During this second round of reforms, the Roosevelt Administration continued to confront massive unemployment and labor unrest. Numerous strikes took place throughout the country. To support the rights of union organizers, the Wagner Act was passed in 1936.24 This legislation established the National Labor Relations Board. The board enforced the right of workers to start their own unions. For instance, specific procedures for starting unions were outlined, including voting procedures for choosing a collective bargaining agent. The Roosevelt Administration also implemented major federal initiatives during this “second New Deal” that were later terminated.25 One was the Works Progress Administration (WPA), which replaced the Federal Emergency Relief Administration created at the start of the New Deal. About 85% of program participants were receiving poor relief. Program eligibility was limited to one member of each family..."

https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/er...-and-wwii/

Our "global commitments" like foreign aid have been drastically cut back in recent years. "everything else that the liberals keep committing us to pay for these days" consists of needed programs for today. You can't expect "liberals" to pay attention only to the needs that were noticed in the 1930s. Perhaps you refer to medicaid, developed as part of the "great society" that expanded on the 1930s reforms, or maybe food stamps or Obamacare. But I don't know what you mean. In the last 40 years of Reaganomics, liberals have gotten very little new programs passed, and the ones that survive have been cut back. Welfare is no longer free and can be taken away before the need is over.

Just because liberals want to have these programs does not make them "Marxists." Yet you accuse all liberals of being Marxists because they support these liberal reforms. You and your president constantly put out misinformation like this in order to arouse prejudice and hatred among the gullible.

Dude, the needs of the world are the same but the population and the make up of the world has drastically changed . The needs of the country are the same but the population of the country and the role of the country and our position in the world has drastically changed. You can't have it both ways these days. The middle of the road politicians are going to continue to try having it both ways but they're going to fail beacsue they're running out of believers. America knows that it's just a matter of time before the Liberal system fails.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-27-2020, 04:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 04:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Have their place???? Boy does that sound like the words of an elitist. What place is that master?

Mostly the unraveling.  It takes a while for the new conservative thought pattern to take shape.  The Lincoln Project is one model for a Republican future.  So is the Tea Party, but so far they have fallen for Palin and Trump.  It is not clear that they will find a new leader who is more or less untainted.

(07-27-2020, 04:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The back of the bus. You better wake and come to grips with the fact that we can stick in the back of the bus or throw you under the bus these days.

Again, I'm not worried about it.  I know you are obsessed with violence in a funny sort of way, but reds seem to be moving blue.  I don't think you speak for them anymore.

(07-27-2020, 04:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The racist tendency won't be purged unless the Democrats take a hard line with all the racist minority groups that are supporting them today. So, how do the liberal Democrats do that without being called a racist or hurt politically these days? You're right about the danger of reinvesting in diminishing returns.

This misuse of the word 'racist', seems to be unique to you.  I know your ideological blindness and values lock can cause you to embrace all sorts of weird stuff, but do you know of anyone else that tries to reverse the racism problem?

Well, the era of the Rhino Republican (Republican in name only) is coming to an end. You should be worried about it. Oh, that's right, you're a bachelor instead of a family man and have nothing to worry about these days. I've been seeing violence and I've been responding to it accordingly like every other red blooded American these days. Liberals bow down and do what their told. Red Blooded Americans don't bow down to anyone. You should know that, you've lived here long enough. I don't misuse the term racist like liberals, I apply the term accordingly. Come on dude, I know you're an old racist and hold racist views of black people. I know you're frame of mind ain't the best these days and my style and persistence ain't helping you see straight or see things more clearly or see things the way I've seen them or see them today.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-27-2020, 08:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the era of the Rhino Republican (Republican in name only) is coming to an end. You should be worried about it. Oh, that's right, you're a bachelor instead of a family man and have nothing to worry about these days. I've been seeing violence and I've been responding to it accordingly like every other red blooded American these days. Liberals bow down and do what their told. Red Blooded Americans don't bow down to anyone. You should know that, you've lived here long enough. I don't misuse the term racist like liberals, I apply the term accordingly. Come on dude, I know you're an old racist and hold racist views of black people. I know you're frame of mind ain't the best these days and my style and persistence ain't helping you see straight or see things more clearly or see things the way I've seen them or see them today.

Again, do you know anyone else who has 'racist' backwards? One misguided ideologue is kind of amusing. If it were a commonplace idea it would be something else. Not that the people who are still into Trump are messed up, but do you know anyone that is messed up in the same way as you?

[Classic-Xer]

(07-27-2020, 03:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have explained much about Marxism-Leninism and why it fails to achieve what it promises (and Marx' promise is to create more economic progress by cutting out the profiteering capitalist who diverts much of it to self-indulgent excess that in no way leads to economic growth.  His promise of a classless society fails to remain classless as a bloated government making decisions that entrepreneurs do not make develops a class of bureaucrats that end up living as well as capitalists and aristocrats of the Old Order... markets and the profit motive are far better than  bureaucrats at making decisions to innovate and eschew waste.

As it turns out, world energy consumption dropped sharply in the 1990's despite people having more cars, refrigerators, and air conditioners because post-Communist regimes started recognizing that energy of all kinds was a valuable resource even though it requires far less labor to produce for its value than, for example, concrete (whose processing and shaping is highly labor-intensive). Commies couldn't recognize the value of a healthy environment, and some of the most egregious offenses against nature happened in 'socialist' countries in which an environmentalist movement would have been squelched with long-term stays in mental wards or prison camps. 

That's before I consider the body count, and if anything debunks the validity of Marxism-Leninism, the mass death associated with Commies does. 

One needs to know something about Communism to demonstrate how horrid it is in part because of its philosophical failure and the failure of Marxists to recognize human nature for what it is. Everyone wants to live well without doing any real work... and the raw truth is that no system works well without ordering its super-cheap labor about with the regimentation of soldiers. Except that we did that and people doing such work (as gets you cheap dairy and meat) started getting deathly ill from COVID-19 because the regimentation went to the level of requiring them to sacrifice personal sanitation for mechanical speed. 

If you want my idea of how to make life better in capitalist societies... then it is to humanize capitalism.

Energy usage is a cost factor that everyone who works and pays their own bills understand in today's world. Dude, what we are seeing today is what went on in Russia back when Russia still had a REAL Czar and Germany still had the Kaiser and guess which side you're on in our eyes today. Dude, traditional American culture is free and its politicians respect that and take their oaths to defend it's Constitution and the honor of its Constitution. Like I said, when Liberal cancel culture begins to meet American cancel culture they've met their political/ economic death.

[pbrower2a]

(07-27-2020, 02:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 05:43 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 07:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, what's the prize? I hope its not our homes and business's and all our rights related to them because America will unite and kill every one of you. I'm going to give you a hint, you can win wars on poverty by allowing and enabling a steady stream of poverty. Like I said, are you ready for the flood when America soundly rejects the liberal Democrats and forces them to capitulate and hand over the reigns to a stronger more qualified individual American associated with law enforcement vs some worthless hand picked politician/public official associated with Liberal Democratic politics. Dude, only a Liberal hack would see a difference in value  between a black ghetto slug and a white ghetto slug these days.

I guess the bottom line is that the Republican Party from Nixon through Trump had racist and elitist leanings, while the Democrats went for the workers and minorities.  There were just more racist and elite votes than worker or minority.  As a result labor unions were weakened, benefits were cut, jobs were sent overseas, the division of wealth became greater and boy were those working people and minorities kept in their place.

These days, that is becoming less true.  The idea of keeping down the lower classes so white people will be ’above’ minorities seems less attractive.  Black Lives Matter has discredited the racist vote.  We will perhaps return to the working man voting to improve the status of the working man.

That is a good deal of why I’m not so afraid of your Americans.  They will find themselves voting to favor themselves.

Well, the unions slit their own throats by not adapting and changing with the times. You see, the industrialized world that was pummeled during World War II rebuilt and caught up so to speak. Dude, a strong economy and lower taxes across the board favors all working Americans. Blacks Lives Matter is racist and feeding off black racism which why so many Americans are turned off by the name of the organization.

The unions wisely resist any division among workers on an 'us-versus-them' basis. Employers have often sought to pit one ethnic group against another in efforts to destroy unions, create factions within them, and of course set one ethnic group against another by giving opportunities to undercut union wages. 

Labor unions were heavily involved in the Civil Rights struggle in the 1960's  for many reasons, including individual conscience. Figure that ahite workers were more likely to have solidarity with black workers in the same unionized plant  than to show sympathy with racist thugs who attacked peaceful protesters with water cannons and police tigers -- excuse me, dogs.

A stronger economy is one in which the jobs pay well -- not one in which public services are awful.

Surely you do not recognize the great difference between the 1950's and the last couple decades in tax policy and real wages. In the 1950's taxes were extremely high upon 'unearned' income. Small business had an advantage in competing with corporate behemoths in banking, retail, and even manufacturing. Mom-and-pop operations were much more the norm than is so today. The tax code gives a veritable flat tax on business income whether the corporation is a family restaurant  that brings in $240 K for a family of six or Exxon-Mobil. The current tax code favors monopolization and vertical integration, and of course we know of the gigantic salaries of business executives. Back in the 1950's a business executive was someone who typically started om the shop floor or in the mail room and worked his way up the ladder. That's practically impossible now as the executive elite has practically become hereditary and uses its power to determine compensation. 

The typical executive of the GI generation had served in the Second World War (if he was in the middle-to-late wave), which is in marked contrast to the draft-dodgers so common among Boomer executives who look down upon Vietnam-era veterans as losers. The low, rigid glass ceiling is the norm in Corporate America.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-27-2020, 09:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 08:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the era of the Rhino Republican (Republican in name only) is coming to an end. You should be worried about it. Oh, that's right, you're a bachelor instead of a family man and have nothing to worry about these days. I've been seeing violence and I've been responding to it accordingly like every other red blooded American these days. Liberals bow down and do what their told. Red Blooded Americans don't bow down to anyone. You should know that, you've lived here long enough. I don't misuse the term racist like liberals, I apply the term accordingly. Come on dude, I know you're an old racist and hold racist views of black people. I know you're frame of mind ain't the best these days and my style and persistence ain't helping you see straight or see things more clearly or see things the way I've seen them or see them today.

Again, do you know anyone else who has 'racist' backwards?  One misguided ideologue is kind of amusing.  If it were a commonplace idea it would be something else.  Not that the people who are still into Trump are messed up, but do you know anyone that is messed up in the same way as you?

I know three of you that have it backwards. I see three misguided ideologues and possibly a fourth that are much more amusing. I don't know about PB yet but I'm working on it. Unlike you, I know what I've been doing for years and still doing here today. You, you've been going down since the moment my first post was delivered. You are about to see a repeat of your own history here played out on the national stage.

[pbrower2a]

(07-27-2020, 09:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Energy usage is a cost factor that everyone who works and pays their own bills understand in today's world. Dude, what we are seeing today is what went on in Russia back when Russia still had a REAL Czar and Germany still had the Kaiser and guess which side you're on in our eyes today. Dude, traditional American culture is free and its politicians respect that and take their oaths to defend it's Constitution and the honor of its Constitution. Like I said, when Liberal cancel culture begins to meet American cancel culture they've met their political/ economic death.

Dude, waste of energy was only part of the ecological disaster that was the Soviet Union and its satellites. 

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]Former Soviet Union: An Environmental Disaster?[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]How ecological degradation could be a primary reason behind the fall of USSR.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]By the year 1991, the USSR had expanded to a size so large that central planning became extremely difficult and inefficient. The state planners' unwillingness to allow more autonomy at the local level had resulted in failed economic policies and decentralization among the semi-autonomous republics had grown as the Marxist-Leninist state exerted its power and withheld tax revenues.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]However, the sentiments of disintegration and frustration between the Soviet Republics reflected a more fundamental collapse of social order. A strong case can be made towards Murray Feshbach argument in his work "Ecocide in the USSR: Health and Nature Under Siege," that long term environmental neglect and debilitated medical care system caused, to a large extent, the demise of Soviet Union.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]Severe water and air pollution was one major environmental failure that had disastrous consequences. Extensive irrigation and intense utilization of pesticides and defoliants to grow cotton, dried up the Aral Sea and contaminated the rivers. The desert winds in turn carried the toxic salts from the sea bed through the air causing massive respiratory diseases. Furthermore, inefficient rapid Industrial growth in the late 1900s resulted in substantial amounts of untreated, agricultural and chemical waste being dumped into the drinking water supply. Many women were unable to breastfeed their children for the fear of poisoning them. Children in the region were increasingly born with defects and residents suffered from cancer, blood diseases and chronic bronchitis. Respiratory and intestinal infections increased by 18 and 30 percent respectively from 1980 to 1987. Acute shortage of surgical equipment, qualified doctors and proper medical infrastructure had further exacerbated public health. Reports that illnesses kept nearly 4 million Soviet workers from their jobs on an average day in 1989. That alone was extremely damaging to the Soviet economy. Poor public health resulted in a weak unmotivated labour force that deeply affected the potential economic output. The USSR lost 7 billion rubles a year in sick pay and an estimated 20 billion rubles in lost production.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]Gradually, people became increasingly dissatisfied with the state’s inability to ameliorate the social and economic health of the region. In many cases, protests that originated in environmental disputes quickly widened to fan ethnic tensions and complicated politicians’ efforts to hold the republics of Soviet Union under central rule. The government's popular legitimacy began to decline.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]Ecological activism flourished in regions that housed major chemical complexes and in the late 1980s environmental protest turned into a political threat. Specifically, in Kazakhstan where Moscow sent its filthiest industries, demonstrations transpired against being left with "poisoned land" while the center profited. The secrecy surrounding the Chernobyl disaster in 1986 and state’s inability to take responsibility for 31 people who died — and later 4000 who suffered from Thyroid cancer — further aggravated public frustration. When the state did provide some transparency in the political reformation movement Perestroika, public became aware of the true extent of national economic problems, political cover-ups and social and health failures of the USSR and the support for the regime kept declining.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]The activists who advocated environmental issues later became leaders who fought for wider drives of cultural, economic and political independence. The government of the USSR undoubtedly made many political decisions that resulted in its dissolution, but the role environment played in escalating public dissent and arising feelings of nationalism amidst the republics cannot be ignored.[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)].......[/color]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.85)]Does this image suggest a society doing careful, scrupulous stewardship of its raw materials and energy?[/color]



https://www.theodysseyonline.com/soviet-...l-disaster

[Eric the Green]

(07-27-2020, 07:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 03:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 03:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 10:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't always like to pay taxes, and I wouldn't like to pay too much. I don't like paying high prices. I'm glad I don't have to pay the extremely high rents that people pay where I live. I understand that you don't want to pay.

Back in 1932, the USA learned, as I see, it, that we need that "free stuff" from the government. Without it, people had been starving and dying by the millions. We Americans learned that we could not rely on businessmen to provide for us, give us jobs, or pay us well. We needed the government to provide work and set up youth conservation corps. We needed unions to make sure we were paid well and were provided with the benefits we needed. We set up social security to provide for ourselves in old age instead of just dying away in some tenement or in some back room in our childrens' house. Now in 2020 we are learning that we need a government to lead in response to a virus, and that because we have forgotten this, 147,000 of our people have needlessly died.

Folks like you since Reagan did not have to live in the upstairs-downstairs, unequal, starving world of 1929-1932, so you forgot the need for a social safety net. But even the Roman Empire had it. Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar, and unto God what is God's. It's really an easy concept. If we are required to contribute something to society, then we all do well. If we rely on voluntary charity, it's sometimes-at-least not enough to meet the need, just as it was not in 1929. Every other developed country is better at this than the USA. They pay high taxes and still have their homes and businesses and have better rights of citizenship than we have. We are a backward country largely because we are stuck with backward states like Alabama and the rest of those states in Dixie and their superior representation in our government; states that allow that "steady stream of poverty" that is like the worst third-world countries.

We do need the police. Maybe some people are going overboard attacking the police these days. I am not one of them. The police, however, have gone overboard in trampling and kneeling on our rights. We need the police, but we need rational and just policies and laws. I'm sorry if some of the police don't want to live up to their responsibilities and follow the law. They can find other work. Those who remain will do their job and we'll all be just fine.

I'm sorry that you have so little sense of justice that you think a flag that represents people being bought and sold is a symbol of American defiance, instead of what it is, a symbol of defiance against America. I'm sorry that you are so blinded by your dislike of paying taxes that you can't even see that you defend a symbol of racism. I can't help you with that. I can only hope that one day that amazing grace will come to you, and like Mr. Newton discovered while traveling on that slave ship and writing that song, that you will see that you have been blind. Most Americans are sickened by what your type of folks do who wave that flag and grin while choking a black man like George Floyd to death. Most Americans are rediscovering that we did not go far enough yet in the sixties, that racists like you still exist, and that you guys need to be disempowered from ruling our country, and your candidates taken out of office.

The Democratic party wasn't into giving away "free stuff" during the the Great Depression. It was into funding public works and building/modernizing American infrastructure. Have you ever seen the Hoover dam or jigged for fish along man made a wing dam on a major river or traveled on a US highway or freeway? I recognize the need for social safety nets and I wish the liberals were capable of saying no (to) the other programs and add on's and expansions and global initiates and global commitments and so forth so that we can properly fund them and keep them available for our use versus trying to fund them along with everything else that the liberals keep committing us to pay for these days.

No that's not true. They gave away money to fund these projects. "emergency food programs were set up to prevent starvation. For instance, surplus agricultural goods were distributed to the poor. Also, a relatively small-scale “food stamp” program was established for needy federal workers."... "This first set of reforms, as previously stated, was an emergency stop-gap measure. From November of 1934 to November of 1936, the Roosevelt Administration implemented a second set of reforms meant to define an ongoing responsibility of the federal government, a responsibility for social welfare similar to that found in European nations.19 The major piece of legislation passed during this period was the Social Security Act of 1935.

This legislation constituted a package of social programs consisting of both insurance and poor relief (later referred to as “public assistance” or “welfare”). With respect to insurance, the act contained both unemployment insurance and old age pensions (commonly known as “Social Security”). Unemployment insurance was very unpopular with business leaders. To illustrate, as late as 1931, Henry Ford persisted in blaming mass unemployment on individual laziness. He claimed there was plenty of work for those who wanted it!20 Yet, packaging unemployment insurance with more popular programs such as old age pensions, Roosevelt was able to pass the legislation. The Social Security Act also contained several federal poor relief programs. Meant to be a continuing federal responsibility, these programs included Old Age Assistance, Aid to the Blind, and Aid to Dependent Children (ADC).21 ADC, as the name suggests, targeted relief to poor children in single parent families. It was not until 1950 that the single parent became officially eligible for assistance also. Note that prior to the New Deal, relief was a tool used by social workers to rehabilitate.22 To get relief, a person had to accept rehabilitation services from a social worker (including a significant dose of moral instruction!) With the New Deal, poor relief became a right of American citizens meeting certain eligibility standards, including of course, financial need. In other words, poor relief became, not a “means” to rehabilitation, but rather, an “end in itself.” The Social Security Act promoted cooperation between the federal government and the states in providing poor relief through the use of “matching funding formulas.”23 That is, for every dollar of state funding expended in the Old Age Assistance, Aid to the Blind, and Aid to Dependent Children programs, the federal government contributed a specified percentage of funding. Yet, the legislation allowed each state to determine eligibility standards and levels of benefits. Also contained in the legislative package were a number of smaller scale health and human service programs.
These included child welfare and maternal health programs in Title V of the act and public health programs in Title VI of the legislation. During this second round of reforms, the Roosevelt Administration continued to confront massive unemployment and labor unrest. Numerous strikes took place throughout the country. To support the rights of union organizers, the Wagner Act was passed in 1936.24 This legislation established the National Labor Relations Board. The board enforced the right of workers to start their own unions. For instance, specific procedures for starting unions were outlined, including voting procedures for choosing a collective bargaining agent. The Roosevelt Administration also implemented major federal initiatives during this “second New Deal” that were later terminated.25 One was the Works Progress Administration (WPA), which replaced the Federal Emergency Relief Administration created at the start of the New Deal. About 85% of program participants were receiving poor relief. Program eligibility was limited to one member of each family..."

https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/er...-and-wwii/

Our "global commitments" like foreign aid have been drastically cut back in recent years. "everything else that the liberals keep committing us to pay for these days" consists of needed programs for today. You can't expect "liberals" to pay attention only to the needs that were noticed in the 1930s. Perhaps you refer to medicaid, developed as part of the "great society" that expanded on the 1930s reforms, or maybe food stamps or Obamacare. But I don't know what you mean. In the last 40 years of Reaganomics, liberals have gotten very little new programs passed, and the ones that survive have been cut back. Welfare is no longer free and can be taken away before the need is over.

Just because liberals want to have these programs does not make them "Marxists." Yet you accuse all liberals of being Marxists because they support these liberal reforms. You and your president constantly put out misinformation like this in order to arouse prejudice and hatred among the gullible.

Dude, the needs of the world are the same but the population and the make up of the world has drastically changed . The needs of the country are the same but the population of the country and the role of the country and our position in the world has drastically changed. You can't have it both ways these days. The middle of the road politicians are going to continue to try having it both ways but they're going to fail because they're running out of believers. America knows that it's just a matter of time before the Liberal system fails.

I think that unless we break from the conservative dominance of the last 40 years, our country will continue to slide in its place in the world. The change in the population in our country offers hope for a liberal revival.

But to have a strangled government that cannot act to invest in the country or redistribute wealth from a 1% of robber barons to a growing middle class has handcuffed America. Prosperity depends not on your kind of politics that concentrates power and wealth in the hands of a few. It depends on our kind that promotes the general welfare and grows the middle class. Only then will be able to support an economy and a military that can keep the Chinese, Russians and other tyrants from gaining world ascendancy. And only if we have a president willing to work with allies, keep and make treaties, and help other nations and our ravaged environment will we be a leader for democracy and peace in the world. We don't have such a president now. We need to switch leaders, and we need to do this urgently.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-27-2020, 09:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 09:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 08:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the era of the Rhino Republican (Republican in name only) is coming to an end. You should be worried about it. Oh, that's right, you're a bachelor instead of a family man and have nothing to worry about these days. I've been seeing violence and I've been responding to it accordingly like every other red blooded American these days. Liberals bow down and do what their told. Red Blooded Americans don't bow down to anyone. You should know that, you've lived here long enough. I don't misuse the term racist like liberals, I apply the term accordingly. Come on dude, I know you're an old racist and hold racist views of black people. I know you're frame of mind ain't the best these days and my style and persistence ain't helping you see straight or see things more clearly or see things the way I've seen them or see them today.

Again, do you know anyone else who has 'racist' backwards?  One misguided ideologue is kind of amusing.  If it were a commonplace idea it would be something else.  Not that the people who are still into Trump are messed up, but do you know anyone that is messed up in the same way as you?

I know three of you that have it backwards. I see three misguided ideologues and possibly a fourth that are much more amusing. I don't know about PB yet but I'm working on it. Unlike you, I know what I've been doing for years and still doing here today. You, you've been going down since the moment my first post was delivered. You are about to see a repeat of your own history here played out on the national stage.

You again didn't answer my question.  I'll just assume that your policy is a personal delusion, that you are alone in your mistaken belief.

I know you haven't changed.  I know I have.  If you base your theory of the world on reality, the world evolves and develops, and your understanding shifts to meet it.  If you are a value locked ideologue, things stay the same.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-27-2020, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/soviet-...l-disaster

I am amazed more at how much the above looks like sections of Lowell Massachusetts than how the Soviets are unique.  Oh, the Lowell factories are mostly idle now.  One became a museum, where they still occasionally power up the old machinery and the noise is deafening.  It wasn't that long ago that we had much the same attitude, that our cities looked much the same.  

I concur that it is no longer sustainable.  I keep waiting for countries like India, China and Russia to install stack scrubbers cutting back on pollution, to make health care solutions and life style decisions in line with what the western countries decided long ago.  I suspect part of why US manufacturing jobs have gone abroad is that they are still polluting abroad, still putting the chance to profit ahead of the earth and the people.  The faster governments institute cleaner solutions, the sooner the corporations shift their operations to other countries where policies are more profitable.

Yet the US imports products from these polluting countries.  Our country still imports the products of pollution.  Our elites profit from it.  We are not adequately distancing ourselves from the dirty policies of the recent past.  You read about how dirty the air is in China and elsewhere.  There is a plume of pollution from India which drifts into the Middle East and parts of Africa.

The sort of particulate pollution pictured above contributes significantly to global dimming.  The particles block the sun, making agriculture less effective and reflecting energy back into space.  Thing is, if the dirty countries do clean up their act, the cooling effects of global dimming being reduced will adversely impact global warming.  Temperatures will go up significantly.  In a way it is better for us to keep our cleaner air and postpone the reckoning, but the reckoning is coming.

[Eric the Green]

Charles Dickens wrote the first description of "Coketown" in his book Hard Times. From its first home in Britain, this industrial nightmare spread over The West, and then to the Communist world. As the bosses found cheaper labor and easier laws elsewhere, they kept moving. Now they are found in the Third World countries. Eventually, it's time will run out everywhere.

[pbrower2a]

(07-27-2020, 09:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 09:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 08:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the era of the Rhino Republican (Republican in name only) is coming to an end. You should be worried about it. Oh, that's right, you're a bachelor instead of a family man and have nothing to worry about these days. I've been seeing violence and I've been responding to it accordingly like every other red blooded American these days. Liberals bow down and do what their told. Red Blooded Americans don't bow down to anyone. You should know that, you've lived here long enough. I don't misuse the term racist like liberals, I apply the term accordingly. Come on dude, I know you're an old racist and hold racist views of black people. I know you're frame of mind ain't the best these days and my style and persistence ain't helping you see straight or see things more clearly or see things the way I've seen them or see them today.

Again, do you know anyone else who has 'racist' backwards?  One misguided ideologue is kind of amusing.  If it were a commonplace idea it would be something else.  Not that the people who are still into Trump are messed up, but do you know anyone that is messed up in the same way as you?

I know three of you that have it backwards. I see three misguided ideologues and possibly a fourth that are much more amusing. I don't know about PB yet but I'm working on it. Unlike you, I know what I've been doing for years and still doing here today. You, you've been going down since the moment my first post was delivered. You are about to see a repeat of your own history here played out on the national stage.

Translated into a more objective, less personal view:

Three people disagree with me, and as I (Classic X'er) cannot recognize the validity of the core values of anyone who disagrees with me, I will attribute them the worst. I am blinded by my own ethnocentric and political bias and have a limited involvement with people who disagree with me, perhaps because any face-to-face interactions would expose me to people who have justification for believing otherwise. I can't figure out PB, whom I wish I could depict as a devotee of Trotsky or some other Commie because anything that I dislike is Communist of some kind.

At another time in history I would have seen a heretic to break at the wheel or a witch to be burned at the stake.  

I can't seem to get off an ideological treadmill and I see the world neatly divided into good people who agree with me and evil people who don't.   I cannot accept that a different background from mine is as legitimate a basis (culture) for believing something different from me. I have my idea of what makes someone an American and what doesn't.  Instead of a rich variety of experiences from which to pick and choose I find perverse difference. I am right, and someone who grows up in Little Italy, Chinatown, the Reservation, communities in the Lower Rio  Grande Valley that are 95% Mexican-American, a Hasidic community, the Old Order Amish, Appalachia or the Ozarks, or -- God forbid! -- BLACK!... tough like. Not like me, ergo less than me.  

I am still the minority, and you conform to my expectations, lest you suffer the consequences. 

......................

Now, my analysis. "I" now refers to "yours truly, your humble narrator". 

Most of us know the rules for getting along. Do not assume evil in a difference unless the behavior is inexcusable in any culture. No culture can excuse murder, rape, or theft. Most cultures have a mainstream in which rogues who take the outer identity of the group and do horrible things are objects of hatred. Mexican-Americans hated serial-killer and demon-worshiper Richard Ramirez. Blacks recognize serial killer and thug Alton Coleman with about as much sympathy as white people hold Ted Bundy. What people hate the Mafia thugs most? You guessed it: Italian-Americans who have legitimate ways of making a living. You find few German-Americans showing admiration for John Dillinger -- or Nazis. Jews do not defend the Jewish monbsters of about eighty years ago or such scum as Bernie Madoff, Harvey Weinstein, or Jeffrey Epstein. 

For some reason, the 9/11 plotters stayed clear of Dearborn, Michigan, a community with a large Arab Muslim (and lots of people of Middle-Eastern origin who might not be Arab or Muslim) community.

[pbrower2a]

(07-28-2020, 02:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/soviet-...l-disaster

I am amazed more at how much the above looks like sections of Lowell Massachusetts than how the Soviets are unique.  Oh, the Lowell factories are mostly idle now.  One became a museum, where they still occasionally power up the old machinery and the noise is deafening.  It wasn't that long ago that we had much the same attitude, that our cities looked much the same.

That's the same pattern, really. People used to look at early-industrial manufacturing plants belching out black smoke from their chimneys and recognizing that smoke as "progress". As people get richer they come to recognize that such ugliness is what it is. As people get better educated, more people learn about chemistry and find that coal is one of the dirtiest sources of energy possible because coal often comes with sulfur(sulfur dioxide is noxious, but let it meet ozone and water and it morphs into sulfuric acid, a substance that carbonizes much that it contacts by stripping out the water combined in carbohydrates, proteins, etc. Add to that such impurities as mercury, arsenic, cadmium, and lead...     

Quote:I concur that it is no longer sustainable.  I keep waiting for countries like India, China and Russia to install stack scrubbers cutting back on pollution, to make health care solutions and life style decisions in line with what the western countries decided long ago.  I suspect part of why US manufacturing jobs have gone abroad is that they are still polluting abroad, still putting the chance to profit ahead of the earth and the people.  The faster governments institute cleaner solutions, the sooner the corporations shift their operations to other countries where policies are more profitable.

Those countries will need to do something about toxic wastes. 

The early-industrial stage of development depends upon the assumption that productivity solves all problems and assumes that people simply want more stuff as compensation for their toil. Let's start with the obvious refutation: obesity is bad for health, and clutter is confusing and ugly.     

Quote:Yet the US imports products from these polluting countries.  Our country still imports the products of pollution.  Our elites profit from it.  We are not adequately distancing ourselves from the dirty policies of the recent past.  You read about how dirty the air is in China and elsewhere.  There is a plume of pollution from India which drifts into the Middle East and parts of Africa.

The late arch-conservative Milton Friedman offered a simple solution to pollution: tax the Hell out of it.  I assume that taxes that he would accept on pollution would include tariffs. So clean up your manufacturing act, or pay the tax collector. Buy stuff from clean sources or pay for the privilege of polluting Third World  environments that you never have to visit.

It may surprise people, but the Michigan community with the worst summertime air pollution is Holland, Michigan. No, it is not particularly industrial, and it doesn't generate more than its share of vehicle exhausts. It is down-wind from such industrial metropolises as Milwauke,,, but in summer the winds tend to come off Chicago. Guess what happens when the temperatures soar in the summer? Vehicle exhausts become more chemically active... 

Quote:The sort of particulate pollution pictured above contributes significantly to global dimming.  The particles block the sun, making agriculture less effective and reflecting energy back into space.  Thing is, if the dirty countries do clean up their act, the cooling effects of global dimming being reduced will adversely impact global warming.  Temperatures will go up significantly.  In a way it is better for us to keep our cleaner air and postpone the reckoning, but the reckoning is coming.

The solutions for stopping global warming will include giving much of what many of us consider the American way of life -- single-family houses, heavy use of vehicles, and much of our meat consumption. Maybe the realities of the last High gave many Americans the best of both worlds -- the spaciousness of pioneer conditions with the prosperity of industrialization. Privileged youth came to the belief that they could get whatever they wanted and could step on anyone who got in the way or demanded anything more out of life than bare survival. 

Now we see the contradictions between liberty and an elitist economy, a soft moral standard for the elites but a draconian one for everyone else, and productive capacity outstripping human desire. We have unbridled greed at the time in which real incomes collapse for multitudes. We have elite demands for rigid conformity at the very time in which the culture splinters and recombines. Of course we have the conflict between elites trying to live in an over-extended 3T of which the vast majority of Americans are at least jaded and at worst harmed --and people ready to move along.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-28-2020, 09:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Most of us know the rules for getting along. Do not assume evil in a difference unless the behavior is inexcusable in any culture. No culture can excuse murder, rape, or theft. Most cultures have a mainstream in which rogues who take the outer identity of the group and do horrible things are objects of hatred. Mexican-Americans hated serial-killer and demon-worshiper Richard Ramirez. Blacks recognize serial killer and thug Alton Coleman with about as much sympathy as white people hold Ted Bundy. What people hate the Mafia thugs most? You guessed it: Italian-Americans who have legitimate ways of making a living. You find few German-Americans showing admiration for John Dillinger -- or Nazis. Jews do not defend the Jewish monbsters of about eighty years ago or such scum as Bernie Madoff, Harvey Weinstein, or Jeffrey Epstein. 

For some reason, the 9/11 plotters stayed clear of Dearborn, Michigan, a community with a large Arab Muslim (and lots of people of Middle-Eastern origin who might not be Arab or Muslim) community.

Thing is, some ideologues will state all A believe B.  Then, someone will respond, I am A and do not believe B.  The response by the ideologue is all A believe B.  Again.  Rinse.  Repeat.  They have created a false idea and will cling to it no matter how often they are corrected.

In particular some of many races have what I call the ghetto ethic.  In short, drug pushers are seen driving fancy cars, wearing fancy jewelry, and are therefore to be imitated when you grow up.  Using violence to establish your monopoly is cool.  It is reasonable to assume this mentality is real, to take precautions against it.  If you can afford it, you move to places where it is not prevalent.  If you can’t afford it, you take such precautions as you can, which might include joining a neighborhood watch group and telling your kids to stay away from areas the pushers may be active.  You do not want them to catch a stray bullet.

That is rational.

What is not rational is thinking all people with a certain skin pigmentation have ghetto ethics and deserve to be shot.  What is not rational is believing all liberals believe a certain thing when you know many liberals who do not believe this thing.  Yet the devout conservative will insist they do.  They will cling to their false motivations tightly, thus justifying their own mindset, and making any sort of conversation impossible.

Now, Classic is useful.  You can make an argument that opposes him ever clearer in hopes of convincing more rational people.  Convincing Classic?  Unlikely.  He is stuck somewhere between rinse and repeat.

But lately I can repeat a question that he can’t answer and he responds by changing the subject.  You get to know his values well enough to ask what he cannot answer.  Instead he will make silly threats and repeat distractions.

Not only not rational, but not constructive.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-28-2020, 10:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The late arch-conservative Milton Friedman offered a simple solution to pollution: tax the Hell out of it.  I assume that taxes that he would accept on pollution would include tariffs. So clean up your manufacturing act, or pay the tax collector. Buy stuff from clean sources or pay for the privilege of polluting Third World  environments that you never have to visit.

I could endorse that.  Add it to the blue agenda.  The elites will complain, but we shall see who is in earnest.

(07-28-2020, 10:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The solutions for stopping global warming will include giving much of what many of us consider the American way of life -- single-family houses, heavy use of vehicles, and much of our meat consumption. Maybe the realities of the last High gave many Americans the best of both worlds -- the spaciousness of pioneer conditions with the prosperity of industrialization. Privileged youth came to the belief that they could get whatever they wanted and could step on anyone who got in the way or demanded anything more out of life than bare survival. 

Convincing people that consumption does not equal happiness will be a tough sell.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-28-2020, 02:03 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 09:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 09:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-27-2020, 08:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the era of the Rhino Republican (Republican in name only) is coming to an end. You should be worried about it. Oh, that's right, you're a bachelor instead of a family man and have nothing to worry about these days. I've been seeing violence and I've been responding to it accordingly like every other red blooded American these days. Liberals bow down and do what their told. Red Blooded Americans don't bow down to anyone. You should know that, you've lived here long enough. I don't misuse the term racist like liberals, I apply the term accordingly. Come on dude, I know you're an old racist and hold racist views of black people. I know you're frame of mind ain't the best these days and my style and persistence ain't helping you see straight or see things more clearly or see things the way I've seen them or see them today.

Again, do you know anyone else who has 'racist' backwards?  One misguided ideologue is kind of amusing.  If it were a commonplace idea it would be something else.  Not that the people who are still into Trump are messed up, but do you know anyone that is messed up in the same way as you?

I know three of you that have it backwards. I see three misguided ideologues and possibly a fourth that are much more amusing. I don't know about PB yet but I'm working on it. Unlike you, I know what I've been doing for years and still doing here today. You, you've been going down since the moment my first post was delivered. You are about to see a repeat of your own history here played out on the national stage.

You again didn't answer my question.  I'll just assume that your policy is a personal delusion, that you are alone in your mistaken belief.

I know you haven't changed.  I know I have.  If you base your theory of the world on reality, the world evolves and develops, and your understanding shifts to meet it.  If you are a value locked ideologue, things stay the same.

I answered your question. You are one of the three ideologues who have it backwards these days. I see others like you in Congress too but they're not here to take your place. They're in cozy Washington DC not listening, not using their minds to learn and spouting their big mouths and repeating the same old shit like usual. Now, here's the big question to you, why are we paying for two bit piece of shit politicians of yours who promote racist views and use racism to better themselves and spend the bulk of their time getting in the way of progress and undermining law enforcement? So, what happened when the liberal two bit piece of shits took over Germany and Russia? I'm not saying your one, I'm saying that you're mindless enough to support them and go along with them to establish your ideology as supreme so to speak. I've also been telling you that war/violence represents one viable option that Americans are free to choose and support as a means to oppose these days.

[pbrower2a]

(07-28-2020, 12:53 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-28-2020, 10:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The late arch-conservative Milton Friedman offered a simple solution to pollution: tax the Hell out of it.  I assume that taxes that he would accept on pollution would include tariffs. So clean up your manufacturing act, or pay the tax collector. Buy stuff from clean sources or pay for the privilege of polluting Third World  environments that you never have to visit.

I could endorse that.  Add it to the blue agenda.  The elites will complain, but we shall see who is in earnest.

(07-28-2020, 10:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The solutions for stopping global warming will include giving much of what many of us consider the American way of life -- single-family houses, heavy use of vehicles, and much of our meat consumption. Maybe the realities of the last High gave many Americans the best of both worlds -- the spaciousness of pioneer conditions with the prosperity of industrialization. Privileged youth came to the belief that they could get whatever they wanted and could step on anyone who got in the way or demanded anything more out of life than bare survival. 

Convincing people that consumption does not equal happiness will be a tough sell.

There's much schlock in a dollar store that I have no place for... even if I wanted it.

GNP is going up only because people are paying more for what they get (medical care, cable TV, phones, and utilities, and property rents including parking fees). They might not be getting more, but they are certainly paying more. Paying more for the same thing while pay is stagnant or falling is misery. 

Smaller housing units do not have the space for filling with stuff no matter how cheap. Take note that miniaturization succeeded more in Tokyo and New York City than in rural America.  

Where America is somewhat prosperous it is a landlord's paradise. Where it isn't so prosperous people are struggling for everything that they get. We basically have the freedom to choose how we lose as economic participants in a game rigged for our failure.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-28-2020, 09:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: ......................

Now, my analysis. "I" now refers to "yours truly, your humble narrator". 

Most of us know the rules for getting along. Do not assume evil in a difference unless the behavior is inexcusable in any culture. No culture can excuse murder, rape, or theft. Most cultures have a mainstream in which rogues who take the outer identity of the group and do horrible things are objects of hatred. Mexican-Americans hated serial-killer and demon-worshiper Richard Ramirez. Blacks recognize serial killer and thug Alton Coleman with about as much sympathy as white people hold Ted Bundy. What people hate the Mafia thugs most? You guessed it: Italian-Americans who have legitimate ways of making a living. You find few German-Americans showing admiration for John Dillinger -- or Nazis. Jews do not defend the Jewish monbsters of about eighty years ago or such scum as Bernie Madoff, Harvey Weinstein, or Jeffrey Epstein. 

For some reason, the 9/11 plotters stayed clear of Dearborn, Michigan, a community with a large Arab Muslim (and lots of people of Middle-Eastern origin who might not be Arab or Muslim) community.

You're free to disagree, free to ignore and free to refute, free to believe in Progressives and their ideology, free to remain with the Progressives and free to promote their ideology, free go down with the Progressives and die with Progressives or exterminated by Progressives. America is free to watch, free to oppose and free remain largely idle as it occurs within American territory and America free to send in American troops and America is free to use guns to defend themselves, its property and its communities as well and their isn't a fucking thing that the Progressives in Washington can to about it or do about the Americans who live among them either. I don't mean to be mean or get personal by stating the obvious truth that three out of four liberals/Progressives have some kind of mental disorder.

[pbrower2a]

(07-28-2020, 02:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're free to disagree, free to ignore and free to refute, free to believe in Progressives and their ideology, free to remain with the Progressives and free to promote their ideology, free go down with the Progressives and die with Progressives or exterminated by Progressives. America is free to watch, free to oppose and free remain largely idle as it occurs within American territory and America  free to send in American troops and America is free to use guns to defend themselves, its property and its communities as well  and their isn't a fucking thing that the Progressives in Washington can to about it or do about the Americans who live among them either. I don't mean to be mean or get personal by stating the obvious truth that three out of four liberals/Progressives have some kind of mental disorder.

Your ideology has the gun culture, and I wouldn't trust it when people get angry and boozed-up. People who believe as you do will end up killing each other. 

As for claiming that people who disagree with the official state orthodoxy... just remember the psychiatric abuse within the old Soviet Union and its satellites. Your side could never do that? You just said that it could by stating that disagreement with you is most likely to be a mental disorder.

Q.E.D.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-28-2020, 02:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I answered your question. You are one of the three ideologues who have it backwards these days.

You know how many blacks live by my place near Cape Cod?  If I had any desire to act in a racist fashion, I am sure living in the wrong place to have a chance.  I have already explained that in my career the colored people I met were just fine.  You insist otherwise, but you have never met them or seen me interact with them.  The prejudice comes from your own head.

Ideologues?  They are the sort that stay with their chosen philosophy no matter where in the cycles they are.  Someone who has a scientific mind set compares the ideas he holds against realty, and changes his view to suit.  I have different definition of ideologue than you.

(07-28-2020, 02:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I see others like you in Congress too but they're not here to take your place. They're in cozy Washington DC not listening, not using their minds to learn and spouting their big mouths and repeating the same old shit like usual.

Stuff like comply with the Constitution, checks and balances, human rights, equality and democracy?  These are not empty words to me or the Democrats in Washington.  When someone advocating and living selfishness, narcissism and personal gain achieves power, I don't follow him in order to keep power of my own.  Republicans seem to these days.  Either that or they turn blue.

(07-28-2020, 02:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've  also been telling you that war/violence represents one viable  option that Americans are free to choose and support as a means to oppose these days.

It is an option.  It is always an option.  In saying why the Founding Fathers put the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights, I wind up trying to convince blue folk that the Founding Fathers truly considered violence as one of the key checks and balances, and wrote this clearly enough.  The blues were almost as stubborn as you are in denying this obvious truth.  During the revolutionary era violence might well have been one the key checks and balances, manifesting all the others.

In the Information Age, it is obsolete.  Americans through protest and legislation can transform the culture.  No need for violence.  You will see.  You are obsessed with violence.  You spout nonsense about violence.  You threaten to use violence to implement your own prejudices.  But you will see.