The Partisan Divide on Issues

[David Horn]

(11-06-2020, 11:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: While this thread is primarily about red against blue, the struggle for control of the Republican Party has begun.  I will say a little about that.

The establishment - elitist - obstructionist - McConnell wing of the party is beginning to distance itself from Trump.  With control of the senate and the Supreme Court, they are in a position to block the Democrats and take the lead by legislating from the bench.

The Trumpets - base - racist - former Tea Party wing is still Trump’s.  It is not clear that he will loose influence with the 2020 defeat.  The Tea Party in the primaries to 2016 showed how they could block the establishment, and I have no reason to believe they will not eat any establishment candidate that goes against Trump.  I applaud them turning against the establishment, abhor their turning to the biggest alligator in the swamp, and note that they were enamored of Palin before they swapped to Trump.  Will they look to someone else?  Was the establishment dumping Trump mistaken?

The third faction is the Lincoln Project - Republicans Against Trump - Vote Vets - Never Trumpers.  They talk some about having burned their bridges, about their never being hired by a Republican candidate or organization again.  Still, they have not gone away.  They are attempting to rebuild a party, without elitist influence, without a Trump racist influence.

For the sake of the red, I hope it is the Never Trumpers that comes out on top, but I suspect that the Trump base has the most to run with, while the establishment is in the position of doing the most harm.

I agree with all of this, but would add that the Dems are in just as hairy a condition.  The internal finger pointing for not meeting expectations has already begun, and the blame is falling on -- wait for it -- the Progressives for making the Republicans use the "S" word.  Let's just forget the fact that the Dems are led by the most geriatric leadership in the history of the nation. 

It's going to be a mess all around I think.  We may finally get three or more parties out of this, though only two can survive the system we have.

[Eric the Green]

Updated scores in my revised horoscope scoring system regarding the earlier post:

But the salesmanship and skill of the candidate (as opposed to the president) matters. That is why I am concerned about a future Kamala Harris nomination (score 4-16, you recall; updated score is 3-17).

candidate scores:

Eisenhower 17-10
Nixon 19-6
Reagan 23-3
Bush41 15-5
Bush43 19-2
Trump 9-4

JFK 13-4
Carter 13-5
Bill Clinton 25-2
Barack Obama 18-3
Joe Biden 16-6

Ford 13-7
Dole 12-18
McCain 13-12
Romney 4-10

Stevenson 5-19
Humphrey 12-5
McGovern 9-11
Mondale 12-12
Dukakis 2-12
Gore 11-10
Kerry 7-16
Hillary Clinton 7-12

Can the Democrats pick 'em, or what? 

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-07-2020, 08:06 AM)David Horn Wrote: It's going to be a mess all around I think.  We may finally get three or more parties out of this, though only two can survive the system we have.

I would not mind if the Republicans split in two and divided their vote. Still, agreed it will be a mess. The only hope is that the Republicans are split in 2022 and the Democrats grab both houses of Congress.

[Bob Butler 54]

I'm approving that Biden intends to hit the ground running, to reverse a bunch of Trump executive orders. Rejoin WHO. Reverse immigration policy. Rejoin the Paris accords. You do all you can with executive orders before trying to work with the Republicans.

[pbrower2a]

Eric, people have overcome all sorts of handicaps. One of our conventional three greatest Presidents was a cripple. That cripple gave America the sort of leadership that, at the time of that cripple's death, allowed the US Army within a short distance of the bunker of an enemy who had mocked the ability of America to wage war because the President needed a wheelchair and braces. Homer wrote or dictated the Iliad and the Odyssey despite blindness. The great organist Helmut Walcha was blind, and at the end of his life, so was the great conductor Arturo Toscanini. That's before I discuss people transcending poverty, ethnic and religious oppression, mental illness, and addictions.

Can people overcome their 'stars'? If people can overcome something so horrible as heroin, can't they find ways to frustrate the 'stars'?

[beechnut79]

(11-08-2020, 07:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Eric, people have overcome all sorts of handicaps. One of our conventional three greatest Presidents was a cripple. That cripple gave America the sort of leadership that, at the time of that cripple's death, allowed the US Army within a short distance of the bunker of an enemy who had mocked the ability of America to wage war because the President needed a wheelchair and braces.  Homer wrote or dictated the Iliad and the Odyssey despite blindness. The great organist Helmut Walcha was blind, and at the end of his life, so was the great conductor Arturo Toscanini. That's before I discuss people transcending poverty, ethnic and religious oppression, mental illness, and addictions.

Can people overcome their 'stars'? If people can overcome something so horrible as heroin, can't they find ways to frustrate the 'stars'?

Where blind is concerned, we can add the likes of Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder and long time country hitmaker Ronnie Milsap, who was often described as Ray Charles in reverse.  Curious to know some of the other names you had in mind.

[gabrielle]

(11-08-2020, 07:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can people overcome their 'stars'? If people can overcome something so horrible as heroin, can't they find ways to frustrate the 'stars'?

Eric's system is based upon the electability of the candidate rather than effectiveness of the elected in office, no? This could be subject to change as American tastes and perceptions change, I would think. After all, some astrologers, including Eric, have been predicting that these years we are living in will see a great paradigm shift, due to rare, once-in-a-millennium configurations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Eric the Green]

(11-08-2020, 12:44 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(11-08-2020, 07:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can people overcome their 'stars'? If people can overcome something so horrible as heroin, can't they find ways to frustrate the 'stars'?

Eric's system is based upon the electability of the candidate rather than effectiveness of the elected in office, no? This could be subject to change as American tastes and perceptions change, I would think. After all, some astrologers, including Eric, have been predicting that these years we are living in will see a great paradigm shift, due to rare, once-in-a-millennium configurations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My system does change over time. It is based on all the candidates in history and the aspects in their charts. As history continues, the database increases and shifts. Nothing in the stars sets our lives in stone. The horoscope indicates to some degree our character, and character is destiny. I believe character can improve, and that's part of the journey of our unfoldment, in this life, and probably from life to life. Yes, paradigms are slowly shifting-- not as fast as I had hoped when I wrote my first book in 1997 (published the same day as The Fourth Turning), but the rhythms of life and the evolution of humanity and planet Earth go on.

There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in limited philosophies, whether they be scientific or spiritual. I can make predictions based on trends. The predictions based on the system are not perfect, but they show the significance of our connection to the cosmos around us. In this case, the "stars" are the planets, centered on the Earth-- the most significant planet in astrology.

It is great that Kamala Harris has made history. However, that will not be a sufficient basis on which to nominate her for president in 2024, or any time. The horoscope scores, although not set in stone, have a degree of accuracy that should be heeded. And we can see them at work. The scores indicate which candidates will connect the best with the "soul of America," as Joe Biden puts it. Now with his victory, his score improved a little bit, enough to barely top The Donald's. So I predicted his victory. It was always going to be a close call, and the two candidates had scores close to each other before the election as well as afterward. 

Kamala Harris, however, does not connect well. Her campaign showed this. The Democrats will need to pick someone else if they want to keep the White House. Unless they do, things will be even worse than they are now, and we will have missed the chance in this 4T to make change. 

Only Theodore Roosevelt is certain to have thoroughly beaten his score. 6 other major party candidates, although only 1 since 1932, have also won although having a slightly lower score than their opponent. Other factors were at work too in these 7 cases. But no-one has ever won or served as president with a score as low as Kamala's. American tastes and perceptions will not change that fast. Even so fast as since the 2019-2020 primary campaign! So, be ready to support someone like Mitch Landrieu, who if nominated will surely win. Soon-to-be-I-hope Secretary of State Susan Rice is another good alternative, or Terry McAuliffe.

http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html

[Classic-Xer]

(11-05-2020, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The theory suggests different moods, different styles of action.  In the unravelling there is a lot of talk, compromise, arguing and stalemate.  In the crisis there is a lot of effort to solve problems, and you let go of those values which cause problems.  In the high, you worship the solutions that worked, suppress the values that caused the problems while building infrastructure.

One angle to look at the situation is that there are too many people fond of the old values so it is impossible to solve the problems.  Biden can change the tone.  Unless he has two houses of Congress backing him up, he can’t solve the problems alone.

A part of the problem is an unwillingness to compromise.  We elected a black president.  This resulted in a racist unwillingness to compromise.  Apart from Obamacare, we have not moved much since.  As things are looking, if the red continue this obstruction, the blue will be unable to get anything through congress, and the veto will prevent them from getting anything through congress.  What results is like it or not a continuation of the unravelling.  The problems don’t get solved.

That does not make a lot of sense.  That seems the way we could be heading.

I read a short piece about historical context earlier today.  One of the commenters made the argument that this is the 1850s.  I've always believed that the 1850s were fully a part of the ACW Crisis period (not a lot of support for that, but it's still my view).  We can't have a sectional war this time., because the sections are all intertwined, but that doesn't eliminate anarchic violence, and I think we may have put ourselves there two days ago. 

My county went Trump 3 to1. I'm not surprised, but still can't understand the attraction.  Most of my neighbors are white, educated and financially comfortable.  They're still all-in for the Orange One.  I understand the resentment faction, with declining opportunities and stressed lives. What's with the others like my neighbors?  Is it all 401k, and screw everything else?

We understand/ know what your side represents these days and we don't get caught up in the emotional drama/aspect that's being largely driven by the blue media these days. We are mainly white (although we are less white than we were before Trump was elected) , pretty well educated (we are much better educated and more seasoned than the typical Democratic/Progressive voter these days) and more well rounded than we're given credit for as well.

In short, we don't need your politicians or your third world politics because we are all quite capable of standing on our own two feet and surviving so to speak. Just so you understand what you're really dealing with, the number of individuals like me in the country grew substantially over the last four years and the blues (Democratic side) had to scrap the bottom of the barrel of society for the votes that it needed to win and the situation for most of those who are on the Democratic side ain't going to get better for them than it is for them right now either. What you are going to see is two countries functioning more and more like two countries than anyone has ever seen in this country before now and a realization by those in DC that there is nothing that they are able to do about the growing partisan divide that exists in this country today.

[Classic-Xer]

(11-08-2020, 04:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-08-2020, 12:44 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(11-08-2020, 07:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can people overcome their 'stars'? If people can overcome something so horrible as heroin, can't they find ways to frustrate the 'stars'?

Eric's system is based upon the electability of the candidate rather than effectiveness of the elected in office, no? This could be subject to change as American tastes and perceptions change, I would think. After all, some astrologers, including Eric, have been predicting that these years we are living in will see a great paradigm shift, due to rare, once-in-a-millennium configurations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My system does change over time. It is based on all the candidates in history and the aspects in their charts. As history continues, the database increases and shifts. Nothing in the stars sets our lives in stone. The horoscope indicates to some degree our character, and character is destiny. I believe character can improve, and that's part of the journey of our unfoldment, in this life, and probably from life to life. Yes, paradigms are slowly shifting-- not as fast as I had hoped when I wrote my first book in 1997 (published the same day as The Fourth Turning), but the rhythms of life and the evolution of humanity and planet Earth go on.

There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in limited philosophies, whether they be scientific or spiritual. I can make predictions based on trends. The predictions based on the system are not perfect, but they show the significance of our connection to the cosmos around us. In this case, the "stars" are the planets, centered on the Earth-- the most significant planet in astrology.

It is great that Kamala Harris has made history. However, that will not be a sufficient basis on which to nominate her for president in 2024, or any time. The horoscope scores, although not set in stone, have a degree of accuracy that should be heeded. And we can see them at work. The scores indicate which candidates will connect the best with the "soul of America," as Joe Biden puts it. Now with his victory, his score improved a little bit, enough to barely top The Donald's. So I predicted his victory. It was always going to be a close call, and the two candidates had scores close to each other before the election as well as afterward. 

Kamala Harris, however, does not connect well. Her campaign showed this. The Democrats will need to pick someone else if they want to keep the White House. Unless they do, things will be even worse than they are now, and we will have missed the chance in this 4T to make change. 

Only Theodore Roosevelt is certain to have thoroughly beaten his score. 6 other major party candidates, although only 1 since 1932, have also won although having a slightly lower score than their opponent. Other factors were at work too in these 7 cases. But no-one has ever won or served as president with a score as low as Kamala's. American tastes and perceptions will not change that fast. Even so fast as since the 2019-2020 primary campaign! So, be ready to support someone like Mitch Landrieu, who if nominated will surely win. Soon-to-be-I-hope Secretary of State Susan Rice is another good alternative, or Terry McAuliffe.

http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html

So, you tweaked Biden's score a bit after he won to go along with your prediction? What's the point of doing that? You're fortunate that the majority of Blue Americans aren't as sharp as the majority of us these days or the majority of you would be out of business so to speak. It's kind of cool that we are now divided enough to place each other on ignore and no longer care about the outcomes pertaining to each other these days. So, how are you going to get rid of Harris without causing a rift along racial and gender lines and further weakening the Democratic party.

[Eric the Green]

(11-09-2020, 04:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-08-2020, 04:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-08-2020, 12:44 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(11-08-2020, 07:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can people overcome their 'stars'? If people can overcome something so horrible as heroin, can't they find ways to frustrate the 'stars'?

Eric's system is based upon the electability of the candidate rather than effectiveness of the elected in office, no? This could be subject to change as American tastes and perceptions change, I would think. After all, some astrologers, including Eric, have been predicting that these years we are living in will see a great paradigm shift, due to rare, once-in-a-millennium configurations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My system does change over time. It is based on all the candidates in history and the aspects in their charts. As history continues, the database increases and shifts. Nothing in the stars sets our lives in stone. The horoscope indicates to some degree our character, and character is destiny. I believe character can improve, and that's part of the journey of our unfoldment, in this life, and probably from life to life. Yes, paradigms are slowly shifting-- not as fast as I had hoped when I wrote my first book in 1997 (published the same day as The Fourth Turning), but the rhythms of life and the evolution of humanity and planet Earth go on.

There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in limited philosophies, whether they be scientific or spiritual. I can make predictions based on trends. The predictions based on the system are not perfect, but they show the significance of our connection to the cosmos around us. In this case, the "stars" are the planets, centered on the Earth-- the most significant planet in astrology.

It is great that Kamala Harris has made history. However, that will not be a sufficient basis on which to nominate her for president in 2024, or any time. The horoscope scores, although not set in stone, have a degree of accuracy that should be heeded. And we can see them at work. The scores indicate which candidates will connect the best with the "soul of America," as Joe Biden puts it. Now with his victory, his score improved a little bit, enough to barely top The Donald's. So I predicted his victory. It was always going to be a close call, and the two candidates had scores close to each other before the election as well as afterward. 

Kamala Harris, however, does not connect well. Her campaign showed this. The Democrats will need to pick someone else if they want to keep the White House. Unless they do, things will be even worse than they are now, and we will have missed the chance in this 4T to make change. 

Only Theodore Roosevelt is certain to have thoroughly beaten his score. 6 other major party candidates, although only 1 since 1932, have also won although having a slightly lower score than their opponent. Other factors were at work too in these 7 cases. But no-one has ever won or served as president with a score as low as Kamala's. American tastes and perceptions will not change that fast. Even so fast as since the 2019-2020 primary campaign! So, be ready to support someone like Mitch Landrieu, who if nominated will surely win. Soon-to-be-I-hope Secretary of State Susan Rice is another good alternative, or Terry McAuliffe.

http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html

So, you tweaked Biden's score a bit after he won to go along with your prediction? What's the point of doing that? You're fortunate that the majority of Blue Americans aren't as sharp as the majority of us  these days or the majority of you would be out of business so to speak. It's kind of cool that we are now divided enough to place each other on ignore and no longer care about the outcomes pertaining to each other these days. So, how are you going to get rid of Harris without causing a rift  along racial and gender lines and further  weakening the Democratic party.

In early October I updated my calculations to make them easier to update and for greater accuracy. And I added all the 2020 viable candidates, including Joe Biden assuming his victory. I also calculated what the aspect points and scores would be if Trump were to win instead. Luckily I don't have to go with that scenario. This was all done by Oct.15, and Biden's new score was better than Trump's. Now, after the election, the new scores reflect the new reality that would have been exactly the same had I waited until after the election to develop them. This time, my prediction was right. I didn't have to change a single thing after Biden won.

I don't know how we are going to get rid of Harris. If she had the candidate skills necessary to win on her own, it would not matter what her identity is. But being chosen mainly because she put her hat in the ring in 2019, and has particular identities, it will be a tough cross for Democrats to bear. If she runs it will be a great chance for Tom Cotton or even Trump himself to come back into power, if she is actually nominated. Ironically, maybe the only hope is that Democrats pay attention to my horoscope scores more than folks like you do.

Your minions are in the street holding up signs saying "smash socialism" and crying for civil war. You may get it, but it will be your side that is smashed if you start it. Nothing is more ridiculous than your and your half of America's phobia about "socialism." It is a good and necessary, if not sufficient, approach, and no other country is obsessed with hating it. Our rugged, reaganoid individualism is our biggest problem, and you guys are our biggest obstacle to progress in America.

Our side wants a mixed economy, which is what we already have, but maybe a bit more (like health care for all). We want freedom for entrepreneurs, as long as they obey regulations which they should obey voluntarily anyway. Pay your workers a fair and living wage. Approve of higher taxes on the wealthy, and rid yourselves of the delusion that the benefits of not doing this will trickle down. Trickle down don't trickle. It tinkles. Get over your ancient ideologies and you and the country will be MUCH happier. Go ahead and ignore my advice as you always do. We'll fight it out and may the best side win.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-09-2020, 02:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We understand/ know what your side represents these days and we don't get caught up in the emotional drama/aspect that's being largely driven by the blue media these days. We are mainly white (although we are less white than we were before Trump was elected) , pretty well educated (we are much better educated and more seasoned than the typical Democratic/Progressive voter these days) and more well rounded than we're given credit for as well.

In short, we don't need your politicians or your third world politics because we are all quite capable of standing on our own two feet and surviving so to speak. Just so you understand what you're really dealing with, the number of individuals like me in the country grew substantially over the last four years and the blues (Democratic side) had to scrap the bottom of the barrel of society for the votes that it needed to win and the situation for most of those who are on the Democratic side ain't going to get better for them than it is for them right now either. What you are going to see is two countries functioning more and more like two countries than anyone has ever seen in this country before now and a realization by those in DC that there is nothing that they are able to do about the growing partisan divide that exists in this country today.

What you don't seem to get is that Trump can't solve the bug, and without solving the bug you can't solve the economy.  Trump also wasn't going to solve racial inequality, without which you can't solve the violence.  Those two things make me doubt the supposed educated and well rounded characterization you are pretending to.  It sure doesn't look that way from Massachusetts, and we are more blue than blue.  

It is hard to think like Trump.  It seems like the blue states were being hit hardest by COVID at first, and he wasn't inclined to help them, and that evolved into not helping any Americans.   His eagerness to keep the economy going started him out minimizing the bug, and he has trouble changing.  He also aligned with the racists, so was more interestied in aligning with the bad cops than minorities.  He was more interested in divisive behavior and violence than listening to the people.  I can't say elite centered economics and racism is not American.  We have strong streaks of both.  Still, both are also unAmerican and wrote his doom.

At any rate, control of the senate is up to Georgia for the moment.  Another election to wait out.  Enough people were into American values than racism and elitism to make Trump go away.  We will see which of the three aspects of the old Republicans comes out on top: the elite, racist or conservative factions.  

One problem?  You don't seem to be aligned much with either of the three.

[Eric the Green]

(11-07-2020, 08:52 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Updated scores in my revised horoscope scoring system regarding the earlier post:

But the salesmanship and skill of the candidate (as opposed to the president) matters. That is why I am concerned about a future Kamala Harris nomination (score 4-16, you recall; updated score is 3-17).

candidate scores:

Eisenhower 17-10
Nixon 19-6
Reagan 23-3
Bush41 15-5
Bush43 19-2
Trump 9-4

JFK 13-4
Carter 13-5
Bill Clinton 25-2
Barack Obama 18-3
Joe Biden 16-6

Ford 13-7
Dole 12-18
McCain 13-12
Romney 4-10

Stevenson 5-19
Humphrey 12-5
McGovern 9-11
Mondale 12-12
Dukakis 2-12
Gore 11-10
Kerry 7-16
Hillary Clinton 7-12

Can the Democrats pick 'em, or what? 

It's pretty weird, I must admit, how often the scores reflect their performance; how often the proportion in their vote (popular or electoral) compared to their opponents, shows the same proportion in their scores. Not perfectly all the time, but a lot of the time. How else can I explain how a madman, an incompetent, malevolent narcissist, can get 44% of the vote in Maine, 45% in New Hampshire, even 40% in Delaware, Biden's home state. Intelligent states! Trump has some kind of hypnotic, magical ability. He has marketing skill and personality; people say they like him because he tells it like it is. The dangerous and deadly policies he follows, the cruelty he dishes out, don't seem to matter to his voters. But his horoscope shows the magic. I don't mean to say it causes it, but it reflects it; it reveals it. 

I only hope this is his last campaign, and that future Republican candidates are more like Mitt Romney or John McCain. Not only more sensible, but a lot less hypnotic and magical. Mike Pence, please! I only hope the Democrats can nominate not Kamala Harris, but Mitch Landrieu, who has a score (19-2 now) like Obama and Bill Clinton had; real charm and personality; that's all that seems to count with Americans. That's what the consistent pattern of the scores show. Not just that astrology works; far more, it's what history shows. Only the magicians, the hypnotists, the charmers, the all-American personalities, can ever be elected president, or even do as well as Trump has done, despite a hornet's nest of faults. It is something amazing to ponder, and to keep in mind. Wow.

http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html

[pbrower2a]

(11-09-2020, 02:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-05-2020, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The theory suggests different moods, different styles of action.  In the unravelling there is a lot of talk, compromise, arguing and stalemate.  In the crisis there is a lot of effort to solve problems, and you let go of those values which cause problems.  In the high, you worship the solutions that worked, suppress the values that caused the problems while building infrastructure.

One angle to look at the situation is that there are too many people fond of the old values so it is impossible to solve the problems.  Biden can change the tone.  Unless he has two houses of Congress backing him up, he can’t solve the problems alone.

A part of the problem is an unwillingness to compromise.  We elected a black president.  This resulted in a racist unwillingness to compromise.  Apart from Obamacare, we have not moved much since.  As things are looking, if the red continue this obstruction, the blue will be unable to get anything through congress, and the veto will prevent them from getting anything through congress.  What results is like it or not a continuation of the unravelling.  The problems don’t get solved.

That does not make a lot of sense.  That seems the way we could be heading.

I read a short piece about historical context earlier today.  One of the commenters made the argument that this is the 1850s.  I've always believed that the 1850s were fully a part of the ACW Crisis period (not a lot of support for that, but it's still my view).  We can't have a sectional war this time., because the sections are all intertwined, but that doesn't eliminate anarchic violence, and I think we may have put ourselves there two days ago. 

My county went Trump 3 to1. I'm not surprised, but still can't understand the attraction.  Most of my neighbors are white, educated and financially comfortable.  They're still all-in for the Orange One.  I understand the resentment faction, with declining opportunities and stressed lives. What's with the others like my neighbors?  Is it all 401k, and screw everything else?

We understand/ know what your side represents these days and we don't get caught up in the emotional drama/aspect that's being largely driven by the blue media these days. We are mainly white (although we are less white than we were before Trump was elected) , pretty well educated (we are much better educated and more seasoned than the typical Democratic/Progressive voter these days) and more well rounded than we're given credit for as well.

You understand only a straw-man image of liberals. You think, as far as I can tell, that we celebrate abortions and have images of Commie "heroes". I'm not going to pretend that you have erections with an arm (Left if Klan and Right if neo-Nazi) when you hear Trump speak. I have seen plenty of Trump banners, and I see plenty of long faces from the news that Trump lost Pennsylvania. Now those people know how we felt when Hillary Clinton lost Pennsylvania. 

We on the center-left recognize a huge difference between Donald Trump and Mitt Romney. We understand well your love of your country, of God, and (of all things) guns. We aren't so fond of guns unless we go hunting or target shooting, but at least we can understand that. We know the moral teachings of some great religious text; we often test Trump against those texts and find him deficient.

President Trump should have caused conservatives much grief when the Access Hollywood tape exposed him saying "I grab 'em (women) by the pu**y", which is either an admission of very bad behavior or evidence of gross lack of discretion. If I were a conservative Republican I would have said "find someone else to be the nominee". That is how my late father saw Donald Trump. The corruption, incompetence, and indiscretions simply snowballed. It amazes me that Trump did not lose in a blowout landslide because much of what we liberals find objectionable about him used to reliably offend conservative values.

Quote:In short, we don't need your politicians or your third world politics because we are all quite capable of standing on our own two feet and surviving so to speak. Just so you understand what you're really dealing with, the number of individuals like me in the country grew substantially over the last four years and the blues (Democratic side) had to scrap the bottom of the barrel of society for the votes that it needed to win and the situation for most of those who are on the Democratic side ain't going to get better for them than it is for them right now either. What you are going to see is two countries functioning more and more like two countries than anyone has ever seen in this country before now and a realization by those in DC that there is nothing that they are able to do about the growing partisan divide that exists in this country today.

Third World? That's where people must more stand on their own feet and survive under tougher conditions, where the welfare state is at best a pipe dream. What Trump stands for isn't progress, material or moral; it is regression to the primitive and debased. We Democrats did better among the well-educated than Trump did, and on the whole it is the most backward white communities that were most for Trump. Your side scraped the bottom of the barrel for dirty tricks, including the ugly incident when your side's pod of sharks beached the Biden bus so that it could not reach a political rally in Texas. Your President had people tear-gassed at a lawful demonstration so that he could hold a Bible whose contents he neither reads nor heeds up in front of a church that he does not attend (it is even the wrong denomination.

What gets me is the cruelty of Donald Trump and the large number of enablers of it. I have never known anything other than evil as a result of cruelty. Maybe trump acts outside of the box, and people think that clever. Know well, though; Trump's actions outside the box do not come from thinking outside the box and testing what comes from the thought. What Trump has done is madness, and most madness is simply dumb.

You conservatives need to quit vilifying Barack Obama. Except for not being a conservative, Obama was a fine conservative President. Conservatives need a sober, learned, moral, cautious figure more intent on building a consensus than upon being a Mark Levin-Sean Hannity-Rush Limbaugh shock jock. I can say this: we liberals do not want a left-wing version of Donald Trump to win an election that we otherwise have no chance of winning. 

You conservatives need to recognize that there are people so toxic that any attempt to mollify their opinions is futile at best and counter-productive at worst. No, there are not good people on both sides on Nazi-style or Klan-style racism any more than there are good people on both sides of drug trafficking. We have no use for Stalinists, Maoists, or Trotskyites... and you conservatives need to ditch their right-wing fascist mirror images.

[David Horn]

(11-09-2020, 02:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-05-2020, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote: My county went Trump 3 to1. I'm not surprised, but still can't understand the attraction.  Most of my neighbors are white, educated and financially comfortable.  They're still all-in for the Orange One.  I understand the resentment faction, with declining opportunities and stressed lives. What's with the others like my neighbors?  Is it all 401k, and screw everything else?

We understand/ know what your side represents these days and we don't get caught up in the emotional drama/aspect that's being largely driven by the blue media these days. We are mainly white (although we are less white than we were before Trump was elected) , pretty well educated (we are much better educated and more seasoned than the typical Democratic/Progressive voter these days) and more well rounded than we're given credit for as well.

In short, we don't need your politicians or your third world politics because we are all quite capable of standing on our own two feet and surviving so to speak. Just so you understand what you're really dealing with, the number of individuals like me in the country grew substantially over the last four years and the blues (Democratic side) had to scrap the bottom of the barrel of society for the votes that it needed to win and the situation for most of those who are on the Democratic side ain't going to get better for them than it is for them right now either. What you are going to see is two countries functioning more and more like two countries than anyone has ever seen in this country before now and a realization by those in DC that there is nothing that they are able to do about the growing partisan divide that exists in this country today.

You state well the belief that everyone makes it on his or her own, except it doesn't work that way. Mostly, you get the benefit of schooling and good health as a communal good, then are lucky enough to parlay that into success. Well here's a clue: that's the model we all follow, or fall by the wayside. One bad event in our lives can end that beautiful rise to the top in this dog-eat-dog nation, that wouldn't be that way in a more progressive one ... but carry-on.

[pbrower2a]

(11-10-2020, 10:42 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-09-2020, 02:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-05-2020, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote: My county went Trump 3 to1. I'm not surprised, but still can't understand the attraction.  Most of my neighbors are white, educated and financially comfortable.  They're still all-in for the Orange One.  I understand the resentment faction, with declining opportunities and stressed lives. What's with the others like my neighbors?  Is it all 401k, and screw everything else?

We understand/ know what your side represents these days and we don't get caught up in the emotional drama/aspect that's being largely driven by the blue media these days. We are mainly white (although we are less white than we were before Trump was elected) , pretty well educated (we are much better educated and more seasoned than the typical Democratic/Progressive voter these days) and more well rounded than we're given credit for as well.

In short, we don't need your politicians or your third world politics because we are all quite capable of standing on our own two feet and surviving so to speak. Just so you understand what you're really dealing with, the number of individuals like me in the country grew substantially over the last four years and the blues (Democratic side) had to scrap the bottom of the barrel of society for the votes that it needed to win and the situation for most of those who are on the Democratic side ain't going to get better for them than it is for them right now either. What you are going to see is two countries functioning more and more like two countries than anyone has ever seen in this country before now and a realization by those in DC that there is nothing that they are able to do about the growing partisan divide that exists in this country today.

You state well the belief that everyone makes it on his or her own, except it doesn't work that way.  Mostly, you get the benefit of schooling and good health as a communal good, then are lucky enough to parlay that into success.  Well here's a clue: that's the model we all follow, or fall by the wayside.  One bad event in our lives can end that beautiful rise to the top in this dog-eat-dog nation, that wouldn't be that way in a more progressive one ... but carry-on.

Most of us need second chances at one time or another. Some of us take chances with careers that don't pan out. Some of us latch onto companies that eventually fail. Some of us find that our jobs disappear when a technology goes obsolete and the plant at which we do our jobs is more obsolete than we are. Economic meltdowns happen often in a free-wheeling capitalist society. Some of us work gig jobs.

If we are to have a free-enterprise system, then we also need second, third, fourth... maybe even tenth chances.  We have only seven years between our chances to declare bankruptcy... well, some business efforts just don't work. If people are to seek extraordinary success, then we should also expect some failures. Excessive caution is not good for a free-wheeling society. Maybe it might be necessary in a system such as the old Soviet Union, in which everybody passes the buck on anything that goes wrong. I suggest that if you haven't seen it, watch the HBO miniseries Chernobyl about the infamous meltdown of the nuclear power plant. In the end technical decisions were being made by none other than President Mikhail S. Gorbachev, who was not a trained engineer.

If our economic system cannot ensure prosperity, then perhaps the system needs to ensure that people not starve and die of exposure. Big Business, which can hire and fire en masse, makes a welfare state a necessity.

[Bob Butler 54]

Is it with relief that one learns that Trump sent his loyalist into sensitive Pentagon positions to release highly classified documents to discredit the Democrats and 'Deep State'?  Better than an attempt to use military force to seize power?

[pbrower2a]

"Deep State" suggests power figures out of reach of people other than themselves. In that zone are people that one crosses at great and unknown risk to oneself. They know the rules, and they set limits that are themselves secrets. Maybe one can discern those limits, but should one be foolish enough to breach those, one gets into deep trouble. Such people are exempt from any popular election: the military, the intelligence services, the diplomatic corps, the judiciary, taxing authorities, and law enforcement. People little perceive their influence unless they wander into areas outside their expertise. Most people back off when things start to get confusing. A very astute high-level politician like Barack Obama knows how much he needs them, and the Deep State lets him use it for his purposes on the terms of the Deep State. Nobody can know everything, but most people know enough that certain knowledge isn't worth knowing. So Obama can take revenge against Osama bin Laden. He will give credit where it is due in return for getting the Deep State to do what it wants to do anyway. Think of a house cat; it finds your home and you a convenience. You can't get it to do anything unless it really wants to do it. The cat has more tamed you than you have tamed the cat.

I would not be surprised if very bad things happen to people who leak the secrets of the Deep State. If the CIA doesn't get one, then maybe the IRS will.

[David Horn]

(11-11-2020, 08:36 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Is it with relief that one learns that Trump sent his loyalist into sensitive Pentagon positions to release highly classified documents to discredit the Democrats and 'Deep State'?  Better than an attempt to use military force to seize power?

This is a test for the GOP.  If they stand idly by while Trump releases highly sensitive intelligence just to make him feel better, then they are no different than Edward Snowden, who they excoriated as a traitor.  Actually, they are far worse, since Snowden did it as an act of conscience, while they will do it for craven political purposes.

This can be stopped cold.  It won't be, though.

[Eric the Green]

(11-09-2020, 02:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-05-2020, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The theory suggests different moods, different styles of action.  In the unravelling there is a lot of talk, compromise, arguing and stalemate.  In the crisis there is a lot of effort to solve problems, and you let go of those values which cause problems.  In the high, you worship the solutions that worked, suppress the values that caused the problems while building infrastructure.

One angle to look at the situation is that there are too many people fond of the old values so it is impossible to solve the problems.  Biden can change the tone.  Unless he has two houses of Congress backing him up, he can’t solve the problems alone.

A part of the problem is an unwillingness to compromise.  We elected a black president.  This resulted in a racist unwillingness to compromise.  Apart from Obamacare, we have not moved much since.  As things are looking, if the red continue this obstruction, the blue will be unable to get anything through congress, and the veto will prevent them from getting anything through congress.  What results is like it or not a continuation of the unravelling.  The problems don’t get solved.

That does not make a lot of sense.  That seems the way we could be heading.

I read a short piece about historical context earlier today.  One of the commenters made the argument that this is the 1850s.  I've always believed that the 1850s were fully a part of the ACW Crisis period (not a lot of support for that, but it's still my view).  We can't have a sectional war this time., because the sections are all intertwined, but that doesn't eliminate anarchic violence, and I think we may have put ourselves there two days ago. 

My county went Trump 3 to1. I'm not surprised, but still can't understand the attraction.  Most of my neighbors are white, educated and financially comfortable.  They're still all-in for the Orange One.  I understand the resentment faction, with declining opportunities and stressed lives. What's with the others like my neighbors?  Is it all 401k, and screw everything else?

We understand/ know what your side represents these days and we don't get caught up in the emotional drama/aspect that's being largely driven by the blue media these days. We are mainly white (although we are less white than we were before Trump was elected) , pretty well educated (we are much better educated and more seasoned than the typical Democratic/Progressive voter these days) and more well rounded than we're given credit for as well.

In short, we don't need your politicians or your third world politics because we are all quite capable of standing on our own two feet and surviving so to speak. Just so you understand what you're really dealing with, the number of individuals like me in the country grew substantially over the last four years and the blues (Democratic side) had to scrap the bottom of the barrel of society for the votes that it needed to win and the situation for most of those who are on the Democratic side ain't going to get better for them than it is for them right now either. What you are going to see is two countries functioning more and more like two countries than anyone has ever seen in this country before now and a realization by those in DC that there is nothing that they are able to do about the growing partisan divide that exists in this country today.

Ha ha. Any survey of the electorate proves that the Democrats/blues/The Left are the college educated, and you guys are not. We are the well-educated ones, not you.

The number of individuals like you grew. That seems to be the case, if you go by the presidential vote. But the number of individuals like me grew even more, if you go by the presidential vote.