The cancer infecting the political Left

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

I don’t see any part of the government or major party in the US as classically indoctrinating, except the military boot camps. Those would be pretty close. It changes how someone responds within an organization, but it doesn’t fit the personality cult thing.

Trump saying that he is the only one who can do X… and people believe him? People believing that the Great Leader is unique and exalted? The Great Leader believing it and expecting a slavish response and loyalty? That might be close.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-12-2020, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm telling you Bob, you're going to have to drop the racism if you want to come out this in one piece and remain an American. How long have you been repeating/encouraging racist memes and behavior? How long have I've been telling to knock it off before you get hurt?

Well, you have redefined racism upside down.  You live in a culture which reserves the best jobs to white males.  Any attempt to change that racist culture is resisted.  Any attempt to open that up to minorities or woman is fought against.  As far as I can see, it is the attempt to exclude women and minorities that is racist or sexist.  Your unique redefinition is just that, the redefinition of one messed up ideologue.

What make you accept a lesser role in your culture?  Were you not intelligent enough to get the training to be a professional?  Not committed to the work required?  Your culture is slanted to give the good jobs to people who look like you.  That you failed to make the grade isn't a good sign.  Your jealousy of minorities and woman who can make the grade doesn't do you credit.  Like here, I end up speaking against your absurd redefinitions rather than talking theory of history.

And how long have you been clucking like a chicken?  How did your obsession with violence start?  To a great degree, empty threats have come to replace a familiarity with history.

[David Horn]

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

[pbrower2a]

(12-11-2020, 06:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 05:33 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: "Personality cult" is a derogatory term as most see it. It is obviously more difficult to put the label on someone like Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter... If we are talking about national leaders, do you really want to assign one to Barack Obama as you would to Benito Mussolini? If one can attach it to any leader, then the term becomes meaningless. 

In a genuine democracy, one would not expect to see the image of the President attached everywhere. To be sure, the personality cult around Trump is still 100% voluntary... but I can only imagine that having no Trump paraphernalia might have become harmful to one's business opportunities or advancement on the job had Trump won. (He didn't, so I guess we can flush the Valium down the toilet and save the vodka for a suitable celebration -- like getting a vaccine for COVID-19). 

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Sir Winston Churchill,  Mohandas Gandhi, or Charles de Gaulle get the recognition for legitimate deeds.

Personality cult, political popularity, legitimate recognition for deeds, they have some similarity.  A bunch of people get behind a leader for good (or perhaps not good) reason.  You are correct that 'personality cult' is a derogatory label.  We would have to define exactly what such a personality cult is other than working towards something something you don’t like.  

What is the difference between the cultures following Churchill and Mussolini other than your admiring one culture over another?  Is there something specifically in the style of leadership that can be pointed out as bad?

I am not sure that British culture is superior to Italian culture. 
 
Trying to recover some mythical and now questionable lost glory would be a characteristic of a personality cult. Dismantling what one considers internal decadence because it is difference and trying to take credit for such (Franco, Pinochet) would be a personality cult. The personality cult is a denial of the right to differ with the leader. 

Churchill did not suppress the Labour Party; he wanted it on his side in the war against Hitler, and Labour endorsed Churchill as similarly firm in contempt of Adolf Hitler as the Labour Party was. FDR left the Republican party intact and unhindered.  

One of the tests is the postage stamp. Reigning monarchs excused, other living persons do not belong on them. Obviously if anything happened to Barack Obama that took him away from us we would quickly see his image on postage stamps and perhaps even coins. But not until then! So it was with Ike. We would see plenty of statues go up with his image... but not until then. Again, see Ike.

The righteous need no ratification of their wonder; the wicked often do.

[Eric the Green]

(12-13-2020, 11:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

[pbrower2a]

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 06:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-11-2020, 05:33 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: "Personality cult" is a derogatory term as most see it. It is obviously more difficult to put the label on someone like Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter... If we are talking about national leaders, do you really want to assign one to Barack Obama as you would to Benito Mussolini? If one can attach it to any leader, then the term becomes meaningless. 

In a genuine democracy, one would not expect to see the image of the President attached everywhere. To be sure, the personality cult around Trump is still 100% voluntary... but I can only imagine that having no Trump paraphernalia might have become harmful to one's business opportunities or advancement on the job had Trump won. (He didn't, so I guess we can flush the Valium down the toilet and save the vodka for a suitable celebration -- like getting a vaccine for COVID-19). 

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Sir Winston Churchill,  Mohandas Gandhi, or Charles de Gaulle get the recognition for legitimate deeds.

Personality cult, political popularity, legitimate recognition for deeds, they have some similarity.  A bunch of people get behind a leader for good (or perhaps not good) reason.  You are correct that 'personality cult' is a derogatory label.  We would have to define exactly what such a personality cult is other than working towards something something you don’t like.  

What is the difference between the cultures following Churchill and Mussolini other than your admiring one culture over another?  Is there something specifically in the style of leadershp that can be pointed out as bad?

Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

Except that personality cults result from careful indoctrination of the masses which means the denial of any alternative views, you are completely wrong. Liberals do not seek to indoctrinate; objective history is adequate for describing social reality in the milieu in which people live, and even that has changed as historical documentation and criticism gets better. We liberals have no problem giving people the tools, including science and mathematics that can prove us wrong when we are wrong. Trump has sought to indoctrinate us with the complete rejection of objective reality, even dispensing quack medical advice. Can you imagine that? He thinks that he knows more than the physicians, medical researchers, and experts in public health. Practical businessman? He has been a successful landlord because his properties are in a place of rising incomes, which is one of the easiest ways to make a very good income. Otherwise he has dabbled in businesses that he has sold either as failed, folded as failures, or sold off because he could not dedicate the effort into operating them well. This guy lost money operating a casino. A casino! Figure that most casinos are largely collections of vending machines that take in money and dispense dreams only to take most of those dreams away... anyone who can lose money with those is a really-awful businessman. As I said earlier, really-good businesspeople already successful do not go into an area in which they know nothing. Ray Kroc, founder of McDonald's, could have seen that because his fast-food places have high traffic going through that he could put in gas pumps to add some more profit. He chose not to. His reality show is pure schlock. He got into beauty pageants because he wanted to be where the beautiful women and girls are. 

He has made money off the Presidency, directing government operations to spend money at his places, likely paying full price. 

Trump has a cult, one that can do much harm to its participants. From The Allure of Toxic Leaders (Jean Lipman):

The characteristic destructive behaviors of toxic leaders include:

• Leaving their followers (and frequently nonfollowers) worse off than they found them.
  
• Violating basic standards of human rights of their own supporters, as well as those of others that they do not count among their followers.
  
• Feeding their followers illusions of the Leader's power while destroying the independence of followers, enhancing the dependency of followers.
  
• Playing to the basest fears and needs of their followers.
  
• Stifling constructive criticism so that one can demand and expect unqualified and uncritical obedience.
  
• Misleading followers through deliberate untruths and faulty diagnoses of problems
  
• Subverting the structures and processes of the system to generate truth, justice, and excellence to make unethical, illegal, and criminal acts possible.
  
• Building a totalitarian hierarchy that subverts normal standards of succession and making advancement through the ranks practically impossible for all but cronies and sycophants.
  
• Failing to nurture other leaders, or clinging inappropriately to power.   
  
• Maliciously setting constituents against each other.
  
• Treating followers well, but persuading them to hate and destroy others.
  
• Identifying scapegoats and inciting others to castigate them.
  
• Ensuring the that the cost of taking down the Leader is the destruction of an organization upon which subordinates need.
  
• Ignoring or promoting incompetence, cronyism, and corruption. 
  

This is not an exact quote (I am not a good typist), but all in all this describes President Trump unusually well. The book dates from 2005, and Donald Trump is cited on only two pages in the index, once citing his great wealth (in contrast to such people as K-12 teachers who can be the difference between good lives and not-so-good lives) and his flamboyant high-risk business adventures long before he made any run for political office. (I can assure you that the really-good entrepreneurs eschew risk; they are not gamblers).

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Thing is, the people you listed above are hardly alone. If you remember our fundamentalist, can you see convincing him that every word of the Bible is not literally true, and you must accept the whole Book rather than the old parts which specify who to hate? Can you see yourself freeing Xenakis from tribal thinking? Do you anticipate being convinced that astrology will not provide objective truth?

People will cling to their worldview and values. Unless they have a strong scientific worldview and values, they will disregard even direct observation in order to preserve their worldview and values. I’m not arguing that conversations with people with strange worldviews is apt to be futile. It is. They just have different ways to determine Truth. Even if you quote the parts of the Bible inconsistent with homophobia, even if you acknowledge tribal thought is still dominant among minor powers, even if you acknowledge that cavalier culture has it’s strengths that have contributed much to America, people will remain committed to the Bible, tribal thinking, socialism, cavalier culture, astrology or even CH86’s odd obsession with boomers, no matter what is said.

(It is hard using the obsession with boomers constructively. That is admittedly an odd one. But it is typical in its way. In dealing with CH86, you can’t seem to get away from all boomers being what they are not, and their being the cause of all problems. How can that perspective be used constructively?)

My trick is in embracing the odd way of thought, being able to use its strengths, finding its limits, and building a worldview which incorporates them all. Changing how a person thinks who believes he has found the One and Only Shortcut to Truth? That seems to be beyond my pay grade. It takes a major event, a total failure of the worldview and values, to convince someone to hide or change the way he finds Truth. A S&H crisis, among other things, contains an event which presents such a total failure of values to a bunch of people at once. If a culture is a collection of people with similar worldview and values, it takes such a drastic event to change the culture.

So far this crisis we have the bug pricking the idea that one need not solve problems. We have the Black Lives Matter protests fighting the idea that racism is satisfactory and inevitable. We have the economy failing again, which ought to but has not yet convinced people that Voodoo economics ought to be seriously rethought. Global Warming? Pardon if I doubt there is enough shock to go around, that the culture can fully accept everything it needs to? We may have to wait on the next generation of prophets. It is, after all, their future that we are stealing.

But people will go on trying to see their personal truth as The Truth.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-13-2020, 07:42 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm telling you Bob, you're going to have to drop the racism if you want to come out this in one piece and remain an American. How long have you been repeating/encouraging racist memes and behavior? How long have I've been telling to knock it off before you get hurt?

Well, you have redefined racism upside down.  You live in a culture which reserves the best jobs to white males.  Any attempt to change that racist culture is resisted.  Any attempt to open that up to minorities or woman is fought against.  As far as I can see, it is the attempt to exclude women and minorities that is racist or sexist.  Your unique redefinition is just that, the redefinition of one messed up ideologue.

What make you accept a lesser role in your culture?  Were you not intelligent enough to get the training to be a professional?  Not committed to the work required?  Your culture is slanted to give the good jobs to people who look like you.  That you failed to make the grade isn't a good sign.  Your jealousy of minorities and woman who can make the grade doesn't do you credit.  Like here, I end up speaking against your absurd redefinitions rather than talking theory of history.

And how long have you been clucking like a chicken?  How did your obsession with violence start?  To a great degree, empty threats have come to replace a familiarity with history.

I don't cluck like a chicken or talk smack or make empty promises or empty threats. Clucking like a chicken doesn't get results or accomplish anything. All it does annoy and turn off or build frustration and anger. I'm tired of the blue clucking chickens and the roosters. I think its time that they either shit or get off the pot myself. You'd learn that about me in a matter of seconds assuming that your mind and senses are in tune and working correctly. I live in the same/similar urban related culture as you but somehow you seem to think that I'm an older racist Democrat who lives some where out in the country who thinks all blacks as the same as those who were always causing trouble in the cities during the 60's when there was only a hand full of channels. Me, I've seen/met enough of them to know there's a difference between the ones causing trouble and the ones who don't want to have anything to do with the ones causing trouble. Whites and Hispanics are both similar to them in that way.  If I lived in or near Cape Cod, I could be the guy repairing/replacing your air conditioner or furnace or boiler. Hell, I could be a plumber, electrician, maintenance technician, mechanic or jack of all trades that you may need to call on to fix/replace something these days.

I must say, you fit the profile of an arrogant, overly sophisticated Northeastern liberal elite. Gee, my older brother who out ranked you ( you take your software engineering degree and add a few more degrees on top of it and that's where he's at as far as engineering degree's) doesn't have your uppity attitude despite be being above you and your pay scale. He's a Midwesterner like me. Oh, you challenge him and come at him as an all knowing, he'll correct you and show/tell you where you are off or wrong like he would any other engineer below him. Me, I'm just an HVAC contractor who wasn't all that enthused with school. I excelled in some coarse but didn't care at all about others. You know, the extra crap that they add that most don't really care about or need and forget about for the most part. If I had know what today would be like, I would have tried harder and payed closer attention during typing class.

I'm not obsessed with violence or a violent person. But, I am open to violence and understand that violence is need at times. I've told you that many times but it doesn't seem to sink in so to speak. Oh, and if takes violence to open the eyes and minds of some higher level Democrats and all of their rich political donors who think they're monarch's or immortals then so be it because I think that's what's going to be needed to check them and bring them back to reality and screw there head in so to speak. I agreed with what you said about groups we saw last summer and the people they have to scare and upset to force attitude changes. I assume that if the heart and mind approach (guilt trips) isn't working then attitude change will be necessary. Well, we are waiting for the next step/approach.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-14-2020, 04:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't cluck like a chicken or talk smack or make empty promises or empty threats...

In my note to Eric above, there is one commonality I didn’t note between you, CH86, Eingize and and Xenakis.  You are all tribal thinkers.  Whether it is roundheads, boomers, capitalists or blues, you have each chosen someone to feel xenophobic about, to blame everything wrong on.  As I am pretty much all of the above, I have to be against tribal thinking?  Can you blame me for wanting to solve problems that the supposedly better cultures have not solved?

You spend a note saying you don’t cluck like a chicken by clucking like a chicken?  You are not going to convince me you are free of squawking that way.  Perhaps if you stopped squawking?

Yes, violence has been needed at times.  It is not at all clear this is one of those times.  Violence won’t cure the bug, fix the economy or stop global warming.  Non violent protest is driving Black Lives Matter.  The Boogaloo Bois, Proud Boys, bad cops and Wolverine Watchman are trying to use violence to keep the clock from turning, trying to keep the worst aspects of the Agricultural Age alive, working for unraveling greed and stagnation over crisis sacrifice for the common good and focus.  Changing the law and strictly enforcing it will do much.  For the most part, the violent excursions have already been turned back.  It might be just the cooler weather, but the violence seems to have been met so far.

How you describe a potential interaction with your brother shows you are not familiar with how engineers work.  On the projects I’ve worked anyway, each engineer is responsible to make his own function work, and to define as simple and clean an interface with the functions the other engineers are working on.  It isn’t about power trips.

I still remember one project I was on where I was 90% coded on my personal Mac, never having got on the custom hardware which for the most part hadn’t been built yet.  I was just missing the memory map.  How the software talks to the hardware is through the memory map, the addresses you write to or read to change or interpret the state of the hardware.  The requirements were determined by the human interface, the screens by which the operator communicated with the software.  I had to derive what the software had to do by looking at what the screens were supposed to do, and guess what the memory map would look like.  In short, I had no requirements as such.  Thus, I didn’t have to write test plans to make sure I was meeting each requirement.  Whee!  I wound up doing most of the code with no one knowing much about what I was doing.  I’d like to say the code worked fine the first time it was started, but the first time failed.  

Second time.

I also remember how my mother forced us kids to learn typing.  Why would a guy have to learn typing?  That was women’s work.  That was what secretaries were for.  What sort of job would require a male to do typing?  At the time she was bigger than I was.  Ah, well.  I wound up doing my share of typing and then some.

[Eric the Green]

(12-14-2020, 04:33 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Thing is, the people you listed above are hardly alone.  If you remember our fundamentalist, can you see convincing him that every word of the Bible is not literally true, and you must accept the whole Book rather than the old parts which specify who to hate?  Can you see yourself freeing Xenakis from tribal thinking?  Do you anticipate being convinced that astrology will not provide objective truth?

People will cling to their worldview and values.  Unless they have a strong scientific worldview and values, they will disregard even direct observation in order to preserve their worldview and values.  I’m not arguing that conversations with people with strange worldviews is apt to be futile.  It is.  They just have different ways to determine Truth.  Even if you quote the parts of the Bible inconsistent with homophobia, even if you acknowledge tribal thought is still dominant among minor powers, even if you acknowledge that cavalier culture has it’s strengths that have contributed much to America, people will remain committed to the Bible, tribal thinking, socialism, cavalier culture, astrology or even CH86’s odd obsession with boomers, no matter what is said.

(It is hard using the obsession with boomers constructively.  That is admittedly an odd one.  But it is typical in its way.  In dealing with CH86, you can’t seem to get away from all boomers being what they are not, and their being the cause of all problems.  How can that perspective be used constructively?)

My trick is in embracing the odd way of thought, being able to use its strengths, finding its limits, and building a worldview which incorporates them all.  Changing how a person thinks who believes he has found the One and Only Shortcut to Truth?  That seems to be beyond my pay grade.  It takes a major event, a total failure of the worldview and values, to convince someone to hide or change the way he finds Truth.  A S&H crisis, among other things, contains an event which presents such a total failure of values to a bunch of people at once.  If a culture is a collection of people with similar worldview and values, it takes such a drastic event to change the culture.

So far this crisis we have the bug pricking the idea that one need not solve problems.  We have the Black Lives Matter protests fighting the idea that racism is satisfactory and inevitable.  We have the economy failing again, which ought to but has not yet convinced people that Voodoo economics ought to be seriously rethought.  Global Warming?  Pardon if I doubt there is enough shock to go around, that the culture can fully accept everything it needs to?  We may have to wait on the next generation of prophets.  It is, after all, their future that we are stealing.

But people will go on trying to see their personal truth as The Truth.

Most of us are subject to this tendency to some degree. And not excepting the two of us. For me it's a matter of degree, and it is obvious to me that any conversation with CH86, Einzige or Classic Xer is futile. They are simply here to peddle their rigid, false ideology (and downright dangerous in the case of CH86 and Classic). 

Of course, you or others can say that you are keeping the truth alive in this public forum in reply to their falsehoods, and that you won't give up on them, and I understand all of that. I have tried my best, as have others. Everyone is a unique divine expression, or an amazing outcome of evolution, or both, so there is always hope...... and I haven't put them on ignore here...... and also there's a limit to some peoples' tolerance of and patience with endless circles too.....

[pbrower2a]

(12-14-2020, 06:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 04:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't cluck like a chicken or talk smack or make empty promises or empty threats...

In my note to Eric above, there is one commonality I didn’t note between you, CH86, Eingize and and Xenakis.  You are all tribal thinkers.  Whether it is roundheads, boomers, capitalists or blues, you have each chosen someone to feel xenophobic about, to blame everything wrong on.  As I am pretty much all of the above, I have to be against tribal thinking?  Can you blame me for wanting to solve problems that the supposedly better cultures have not solved?

You spend a note saying you don’t cluck like a chicken by clucking like a chicken?  You are not going to convince me you are free of squawking that way.  Perhaps if you stopped squawking?

Some people get things right most of the time. Some people get things right at the most important times. Some people get a few things right on occasion. Some are right only on trivialities or their limited area of expertise. Some people are wrong almost all the time. Some people attempt to deceive, and don't get away with it. I have yet to know anyone right all the time. 

CH86 sees the Boomer elite of executives, and, yes, many of them are awful. They are excessively demanding, and they are often full of themselves. Nothing has ever humbled them, and anyone who doesn't fit the fairy-tale pattern of success gets no second chance even if one never did anything wrong. Once on the fast track, Boomers elites have usually set things up so that they are responsible to nobody. Can X get away with that? I doubt it. The 4T is likely to have a political consensus that demands that money earned easily be taxed heavily, that ostentation consumption be taxed heavily. Exorbitant salaries and conspicuous consumption may go from evidence of the success of the few to a sign of hardship for others. Classic X'er seems low in cognitive abilities, to put it tamely.  Xenakis and Einzige seem heavily invested in having fully incorporated an ideology. Marxism does that, as it allows one to fill one's life learning the fine points of the ideology. Xenakis' ideology leads to Donald Trump.

Quote:Yes, violence has been needed at times.  It is not at all clear this is one of those times.  Violence won’t cure the bug, fix the economy or stop global warming.  Non violent protest is driving Black Lives Matter.  The Boogaloo Bois, Proud Boys, bad cops and Wolverine Watchman are trying to use violence to keep the clock from turning, trying to keep the worst aspects of the Agricultural Age alive, working for unraveling greed and stagnation over crisis sacrifice for the common good and focus.  Changing the law and strictly enforcing it will do much.  For the most part, the violent excursions have already been turned back.  It might be just the cooler weather, but the violence seems to have been met so far.

We will have a Hegelian synthesis between law and order and responsible policing. The discussion is essential. Those who want violence are discreditable when they get what they want. I see some realities that we will have to deal with: the end of scarcity, the technological singularity, and of course global warming. We will need to change much of what many of us see as some indelible 'American way of life' that we have long taken for granted. Note well: we have yet to see the greatest danger of global warming; we are the frogs in the "warm bath stage" of the slowly-warming pot of water, and we may be lulled to sleep fairly soon. When the water gets painfully hot we will be too injured to leap out into comparative safety. I look at the projections for 2080-2100 of climate, and I see major disruptions of climatic patterns as well as inundation of some of the world's richest farmland on which now live perhaps two billion peasant farmers in places like China, Vietnam, Thailand, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, and Egypt. Stalin may have collectivized farms, with those refusing to join his collective farms being liquidated -- but those who accepted the new serfdom would survive as employees of the world's largest plantation. King Neptune will destroy the farmland, leaving former peasant farmers with nothing but hunger and dislocation. 

Mr. Xenakis sees wars as the result of a Malthusian contest between overpopulation for the expected standard of living  and economic growth... but people will get desperate when they lose the only way that they know for earning a living and find no replacement. Join the Army or starve? That is all too easy a choice.     

Quote:How you describe a potential interaction with your brother shows you are not familiar with how engineers work.  On the projects I’ve worked anyway, each engineer is responsible to make his own function work, and to define as simple and clean an interface with the functions the other engineers are working on.  It isn’t about power trips.

Rugged individualism is a myth. Know well the origin of the word idiot: someone out by himself, failing to connect and cooperate with others. Corporate employers may say all they want about individualism, but on the job... they want workers cooperating. Nobody needs or wants cut-throats except for a Mafia-style organization that has its own brutal means of enforcing the rules.

Quote:I still remember one project I was on where I was 90% coded on my personal Mac, never having got on the custom hardware which for the most part hadn’t been built yet.  I was just missing the memory map.  How the software talks to the hardware is through the memory map, the addresses you write to or read to change or interpret the state of the hardware.  The requirements were determined by the human interface, the screens by which the operator communicated with the software.  I had to derive what the software had to do by looking at what the screens were supposed to do, and guess what the memory map would look like.  In short, I had no requirements as such.  Thus, I didn’t have to write test plans to make sure I was meeting each requirement.  Whee!  I wound up doing most of the code with no one knowing much about what I was doing.  I’d like to say the code worked fine the first time it was started, but the first time failed.

 
Everything must be tested, and part of the test is the acid test of someone doing something really dumb, like dividing by zero, asking for the square root of a negative number, getting the arc-sine or arc-cosine of a number x not between -1 and 1 inclusively... those are mathematical traps, and those are fairly obvious. Writing code is one job, and testing it is another.   You do not have one person doing both. It is good accounting practice to ensure that the person who makes transactions is not the one who records the transactions. 

Quote:I also remember how my mother forced us kids to learn typing.  Why would a guy have to learn typing?  That was women’s work.  That was what secretaries were for.  What sort of job would require a male to do typing?  At the time she was bigger than I was.  Ah, well.  I wound up doing my share of typing and then some.

We all think that our handwriting is unique and a great expression of ourselves. Well, I have seen some dreadful handwriting.

[David Horn]

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-13-2020, 11:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Here we disagree. I never block anyone, no matter how much he or she may deserve it.  On the other hand, I do keep my repartee within bounds I set for myself.  When discussing issues with people who have ideas and beliefs antithetical to mine, I try to structure my arguments for a wider audience.  If that works, great.  If not, nothing lost but a little time.

In regard to the two you mentioned, I find Classic to be highly similar to people I have as friends, though not as cohorts.  Einzige is more like acquaintances I had in my past but not today.

[pbrower2a]

(12-14-2020, 04:33 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Thing is, the people you listed above are hardly alone.  If you remember our fundamentalist, can you see convincing him that every word of the Bible is not literally true, and you must accept the whole Book rather than the old parts which specify who to hate?  Can you see yourself freeing Xenakis from tribal thinking?

At least I recognize that I have a terrible flaw as a person, and that flaw is not of my choosing. That completely destroys me as an authority on almost anything. I need to give a citation.  

Quote:People will cling to their worldview and values.  Unless they have a strong scientific worldview and values, they will disregard even direct observation in order to preserve their worldview and values.  I’m not arguing that conversations with people with strange worldviews is apt to be futile.  It is.  They just have different ways to determine Truth.  Even if you quote the parts of the Bible inconsistent with homophobia, even if you acknowledge tribal thought is still dominant among minor powers, even if you acknowledge that cavalier culture has it’s strengths that have contributed much to America, people will remain committed to the Bible, tribal thinking, socialism, cavalier culture, astrology or even CH86’s odd obsession with boomers, no matter what is said.

Rigidity of thought goes with Asperger's syndrome. But this said, "strange" and "inflexible" need not be antitheses. Sometimes it is the strange idea that is right. 

I may not have been particularly homophobic for the time, but I made "gay jokes" that I would never tell now. The only one that I am willing to relate is "I knew that Rock Hudson was a fine actor... but I had no idea how much he was acting!". Once I was threatened with gay-bashing I recognized that the problem isn't that I fail to exude overt heterosexuality but instead that people are so hostile to real and imagined homosexuals that nobody is safe. I may be a sissy, but I am basically a lesbian in a male body... which is as straight as one can get. Men -- yuck!  By standing fully for LGBT rights I believed that I was making the world much safer. I am vindicated.

I like to believe that I am good at deconstructing faulty arguments -- so long as I did not make them. All ideas have consequences.   

Quote:(It is hard using the obsession with boomers constructively.  That is admittedly an odd one.  But it is typical in its way.  In dealing with CH86, you can’t seem to get away from all boomers being what they are not, and their being the cause of all problems.  How can that perspective be used constructively?)

I am a Boomer, and I know the difference between elites who lord it over the rest of us and those over whom we get lorded. If one is a subordinate on the job, especially as jobs become less a matter of labor and skill and more of bureaucratic toadying, humility becomes a necessary characteristic of survivors.   

Quote:My trick is in embracing the odd way of thought, being able to use its strengths, finding its limits, and building a worldview which incorporates them all.  Changing how a person thinks who believes he has found the One and Only Shortcut to Truth?  That seems to be beyond my pay grade.  It takes a major event, a total failure of the worldview and values, to convince someone to hide or change the way he finds Truth.  A S&H crisis, among other things, contains an event which presents such a total failure of values to a bunch of people at once.  If a culture is a collection of people with similar worldview and values, it takes such a drastic event to change the culture.

It is hard to give up the alleged shortcut to truth even if it is wrong. If one develops an unwieldy system for explaining everything, whether the Bible as literal and uncontestable truth (scientific method be damned -- Believe it or burn in Hell!) or Marxism, which has a large official literature that one cannot contest even for technological or experiential obsolescence, then seeking any other source is like giving up everything that one has, whether professional qualifications or possessions, for a chance to start over at the bare bottom of life. Few people can do that without feeling robbed. 

People change their ways when they hit bottom  and have no choice... imprisonment, for example. Or having to choose between drinking or drugs on the one side and participating in the American Good Life.

Quote:So far this crisis we have the bug pricking the idea that one need not solve problems.  We have the Black Lives Matter protests fighting the idea that racism is satisfactory and inevitable.  We have the economy failing again, which ought to but has not yet convinced people that Voodoo economics ought to be seriously rethought.  Global Warming?  Pardon if I doubt there is enough shock to go around, that the culture can fully accept everything it needs to?  We may have to wait on the next generation of prophets.  It is, after all, their future that we are stealing.

But people will go on trying to see their personal truth as The Truth.

Truth needs no qualification for validity.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-14-2020, 01:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Truth needs no qualification for validity.

I wish this were true. For those with a scientific worldview, you learn about the world from observing the world, it should in many cases yield truth. Yet, there are so many who are immersed on other systems for finding truth, be they based on hating a given group, or the literal truth of the Bible, or it being written in the stars.

The assumption that each of these system as some validity, that they are felt sincerely, is a start. But communicating with those who think they provide a reason to close their mind is at minimum difficult.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-13-2020, 11:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

Did you know that only one out of ten new business ventures succeed and the rest fail within five years? Well, the same goes for Trump and his business ventures. He probably does better than average business person and is able to have a few other new ventures succeed as most others fail. That's business as we say. The PC crowd is currently doing the same and they're becoming a major problem that will have to dealt with harshly. You see, nothing is sacred or viewed as off limits by them which is why we're going to be clashing with them and more or less eliminating them. The reason is pretty simple, there's nothing sacred about them that we have to be concerned about with the higher powers above so to speak.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-14-2020, 06:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 04:33 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Thing is, the people you listed above are hardly alone.  If you remember our fundamentalist, can you see convincing him that every word of the Bible is not literally true, and you must accept the whole Book rather than the old parts which specify who to hate?  Can you see yourself freeing Xenakis from tribal thinking?  Do you anticipate being convinced that astrology will not provide objective truth?

People will cling to their worldview and values.  Unless they have a strong scientific worldview and values, they will disregard even direct observation in order to preserve their worldview and values.  I’m not arguing that conversations with people with strange worldviews is apt to be futile.  It is.  They just have different ways to determine Truth.  Even if you quote the parts of the Bible inconsistent with homophobia, even if you acknowledge tribal thought is still dominant among minor powers, even if you acknowledge that cavalier culture has it’s strengths that have contributed much to America, people will remain committed to the Bible, tribal thinking, socialism, cavalier culture, astrology or even CH86’s odd obsession with boomers, no matter what is said.

(It is hard using the obsession with boomers constructively.  That is admittedly an odd one.  But it is typical in its way.  In dealing with CH86, you can’t seem to get away from all boomers being what they are not, and their being the cause of all problems.  How can that perspective be used constructively?)

My trick is in embracing the odd way of thought, being able to use its strengths, finding its limits, and building a worldview which incorporates them all.  Changing how a person thinks who believes he has found the One and Only Shortcut to Truth?  That seems to be beyond my pay grade.  It takes a major event, a total failure of the worldview and values, to convince someone to hide or change the way he finds Truth.  A S&H crisis, among other things, contains an event which presents such a total failure of values to a bunch of people at once.  If a culture is a collection of people with similar worldview and values, it takes such a drastic event to change the culture.

So far this crisis we have the bug pricking the idea that one need not solve problems.  We have the Black Lives Matter protests fighting the idea that racism is satisfactory and inevitable.  We have the economy failing again, which ought to but has not yet convinced people that Voodoo economics ought to be seriously rethought.  Global Warming?  Pardon if I doubt there is enough shock to go around, that the culture can fully accept everything it needs to?  We may have to wait on the next generation of prophets.  It is, after all, their future that we are stealing.

But people will go on trying to see their personal truth as The Truth.

Most of us are subject to this tendency to some degree. And not excepting the two of us. For me it's a matter of degree, and it is obvious to me that any conversation with CH86, Einzige or Classic Xer is futile. They are simply here to peddle their rigid, false ideology (and downright dangerous in the case of CH86 and Classic). 

Of course, you or others can say that you are keeping the truth alive in this public forum in reply to their falsehoods, and that you won't give up on them, and I understand all of that. I have tried my best, as have others. Everyone is a unique divine expression, or an amazing outcome of evolution, or both, so there is always hope...... and I haven't put them on ignore here...... and also there's a limit to some peoples' tolerance of and patience with endless circles too.....

I'm not here peddling. I'm showing you (introducing you) your enemy (primary adversary) in advance. Einzige seems to be here peddling his ideals like you. The two of you aren't all that far apart belief wise and should be able to reach some sort of a deal. CH86 and I are more or less on the same side these days despite being on opposite sides of today's political spectrum. If Republicans and Democrats end up going to war over the future of America again then we will be on the same side but our roles during the conflict will be different as you can see. So, what did George Washington do during the Revolutionary War. Well, Trump will be doing what he did during modern times. Like I said, Trump ain't going away and you better pray that noting bad happens to him. People need time to see/learn what we know about you guys for themselves. Welcome to 4T. Rule #1, don't ever mess with America or its values because America will destroy you and God ain't going to save you.

[Eric the Green]

(12-14-2020, 10:52 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-13-2020, 11:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Here we disagree. I never block anyone, no matter how much he or she may deserve it.  On the other hand, I do keep my repartee within bounds I set for myself.  When discussing issues with people who have ideas and beliefs antithetical to mine, I try to structure my arguments for a wider audience.  If that works, great.  If not, nothing lost but a little time.

In regard to the two you mentioned, I find Classic to be highly similar to people I have as friends, though not as cohorts.  Einzige is more like acquaintances I had in my past but not today.

I have blocked a goodly number, and have 3 people on ignore here. But I don't disagree with not blocking anyone. I just get somewhat more abuse than others, I guess. Most of my blocks are on facebook, which gets a lot of really undesirable participants in a number of controversial groups there, including really-boring pornography; but not too many lately. But I don't block people for their beliefs either. I decided not to put these 3 folks on ignore. 

But I am now creating and offering an alternative forum now on facebook. This forum here, now seems very inadequate as a space to bring or attract people to who are interested in the fourth turning, generations, and the countless related issues. There is no moderator to remove spam, the posters are relatively few, and the rigid ideologues are getting too boring to tangle with endlessly. But I will stay on and post here too when I want to. It has been a good forum for a long time, with a wide range of discussion, and not too much censorship or too many rules.

You can join my new group here. 11 members now already, including many former members here who have not participated either here or in the secret group for a while. That should be good. Someone new already too. Many of these 11 are my facebook friends, easy to invite.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524

[Classic-Xer]

(12-14-2020, 04:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

• Leaving their followers (and frequently nonfollowers) worse off than they found them.
  
• Violating basic standards of human rights of their own supporters, as well as those of others that they do not count among their followers.
  
• Feeding their followers illusions of the Leader's power while destroying the independence of followers, enhancing the dependency of followers.
  
• Playing to the basest fears and needs of their followers.
  
• Stifling constructive criticism so that one can demand and expect unqualified and uncritical obedience.
  
• Misleading followers through deliberate untruths and faulty diagnoses of problems
  
• Subverting the structures and processes of the system to generate truth, justice, and excellence to make unethical, illegal, and criminal acts possible.
  
• Building a totalitarian hierarchy that subverts normal standards of succession and making advancement through the ranks practically impossible for all but cronies and sycophants.
  
• Failing to nurture other leaders, or clinging inappropriately to power.   
  
• Maliciously setting constituents against each other.
  
• Treating followers well, but persuading them to hate and destroy others.
  
• Identifying scapegoats and inciting others to castigate them.
  
• Ensuring the that the cost of taking down the Leader is the destruction of an organization upon which subordinates need.
  
• Ignoring or promoting incompetence, cronyism, and corruption. 
  

I'm amazed that you are unable to see how much of this directly relates to the Democratic party and the amount of power and influence that it has over its voters these days. How many Democrats vote Democrat no matter what these days? How Democrats directly associate the Democrats with their lively hoods? How many voters feel reliant upon it one way or another? How many voters feel obligated to it one way or another? How many voters feel they'd have nothing or would be nothing without it? What do they represent as a percentage of the electorate? Is it still a solid 45% of the electorate these days? I haven't figured out if you're a true believer in the cause ( a member of the social justice crowd/blue personality cult) or just a clueless and needy Democratic pawn/peasant these days. The day is coming when the Democrats find themselves without most of the country to govern or rule as we see it. A national split is coming dude. As blue America implodes red America will be growing, benefiting and prospering. You'll feel lucky that you're stuck living out in the boondocks. Eric says there's a major lack of potential leaders in the Democratic pipeline.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-14-2020, 11:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 10:52 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-13-2020, 11:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-12-2020, 08:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personality cults are usually indoctrinated which is why they're considered derogatory. Liberal's are into indoctrination. Trump's not. Trump's a practical businessman who built a small empire of his own and achieved celebrity status by creating his own hit show who took a major cut in pay and a reduction in lifestyle to serve as our President.

It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Here we disagree. I never block anyone, no matter how much he or she may deserve it.  On the other hand, I do keep my repartee within bounds I set for myself.  When discussing issues with people who have ideas and beliefs antithetical to mine, I try to structure my arguments for a wider audience.  If that works, great.  If not, nothing lost but a little time.

In regard to the two you mentioned, I find Classic to be highly similar to people I have as friends, though not as cohorts.  Einzige is more like acquaintances I had in my past but not today.

I have blocked a goodly number, and have 3 people on ignore here. But I don't disagree with not blocking anyone. I just get somewhat more abuse than others, I guess. Most of my blocks are on facebook, which gets a lot of really undesirable participants, including really-boring pornography. But I don't block people for their beliefs either. I decided not to put these 3 folks on ignore. 

But I am now creating and offering an alternative forum now on facebook. This forum here, now seems very inadequate as a space to bring or attract people to who are interested in the fourth turning, generations, and the countless related issues. There is no moderator to remove spam, the posters are relatively few, and the rigid ideologues are getting too boring to tangle with endlessly. But I will stay on and post here too when I want to. It has been a good forum for a long time, with a wide range of discussion, and not too much censorship or too many rules.

I haven't blocked anyone or placed anyone on ignore and I take and have taken the most abuse of anyone here to date. Good luck with Facebook and I hope you find more comfort with being with the same people who feel the same as you. I'm sure that you'll see to that since you will have full control over your page.

[Eric the Green]

(12-14-2020, 11:56 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 11:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 10:52 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-13-2020, 11:04 AM)David Horn Wrote: It's really hard to be wrong on every count, but you managed it this time. It's conservatives that insist on everyone behaving as they see fit, and enforcing that with the imprimatur of law.  That's not to say that the PC crowd wouldn't do the same given the chance, but it's only on the right that it's there from the center-right to the several extremes in your coalition.  Trump's at the front of that line.  And lets' get through the "practical businessman" nonsense.  He's bankrupted one endeavor after another.  If he didn't have Deutsche Bank backing his action, he'd be totally bankrupt by now.  His hit TV show was bad, even by reality TV standards, and I doubt he's lost a dime with all the shilling he's done while in office.

Classic has everything exactly wrong, and shows zero ability to learn from us. Frankly I wonder now whether he is a robot, or just insane. In any case I think he is not worth having a dialogue with any longer. I haven't blocked him yet, but I am considering it for myself.

I also think it is pointless to argue with Einzige, and see him as much the same as Classic. And the same applies to CH86

Here we disagree. I never block anyone, no matter how much he or she may deserve it.  On the other hand, I do keep my repartee within bounds I set for myself.  When discussing issues with people who have ideas and beliefs antithetical to mine, I try to structure my arguments for a wider audience.  If that works, great.  If not, nothing lost but a little time.

In regard to the two you mentioned, I find Classic to be highly similar to people I have as friends, though not as cohorts.  Einzige is more like acquaintances I had in my past but not today.

I have blocked a goodly number, and have 3 people on ignore here. But I don't disagree with not blocking anyone. I just get somewhat more abuse than others, I guess. Most of my blocks are on facebook, which gets a lot of really undesirable participants, including really-boring pornography. But I don't block people for their beliefs either. I decided not to put these 3 folks on ignore. 

But I am now creating and offering an alternative forum now on facebook. This forum here, now seems very inadequate as a space to bring or attract people to who are interested in the fourth turning, generations, and the countless related issues. There is no moderator to remove spam, the posters are relatively few, and the rigid ideologues are getting too boring to tangle with endlessly. But I will stay on and post here too when I want to. It has been a good forum for a long time, with a wide range of discussion, and not too much censorship or too many rules.

I haven't blocked anyone or placed anyone on ignore and I take and have taken the most abuse of anyone here to date. Good luck with Facebook and I hope you find more comfort with being with the same people who feel the same as you. I'm sure that you'll see to that since you will have full control over your page.

No, conservatives and materialists, astrology skeptics, etc. (people who don't feel much the same as me) will be welcome. You will probably not be, unless and until you reform your ways. But I take it you don't want to join the new group anyway. I will probably choose other admins soon. I am not offended by your posts, or the fact that we disagree; just bored with endless retreading. I don't think frequent threats of violence is really acceptable in a facebook group either.