The Partisan Divide on Issues

[David Horn]

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

[Bob Butler 54]

One of the Q rumors is that Trump becomes president again on March 4, the transfer of power date before transport and communications became faster and easier.  I keep waiting on Trump to do something that looks official, and get arrested for impersonating a federal employee.

Too easy I guess.

[David Horn]

(02-27-2021, 11:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: One of the Q rumors is that Trump becomes president again on March 4, the transfer of power date before transport and communications became faster and easier.  I keep waiting on Trump to do something that looks official, and get arrested for impersonating a federal employee.

Too easy I guess.

Don't forget the famous Marx maxim, "history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce”. It seems an ideal fit.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

[David Horn]

(03-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

I wasn't even born during the last 4T,but I study and use it as a guide.  Isn't that what we do here at this history site?

[Eric the Green]

(03-01-2021, 02:04 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

I wasn't even born during the last 4T,but I study and use it as a guide.  Isn't that what we do here at this history site?

Indeed. "You business guys" is not a statement about just Xer business guys.

[Bob Butler 54]

Towards the end of the blue awakening, Peggy Lee put out a single.  The chorus ran…

Quote:Is that all there is, is that all there is?
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

Is that all there is to a crisis?

I mean, most of the conversation is the one facet wonders expounding on their one facet?

[pbrower2a]

(03-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

That is not an excuse for failing to learn about the past. Before the neoliberal era, Big Business and Big Labor were able to hammer out compromises that kept the overall economy competitive for both and ensured that Big Business made profits and workers made solid wages. The consumer economy was the reward for competent, dedicated, diligent service to the engine of prosperity and progress. 

Then Ronald Reagan offered something new -- the capacity for elites to make wild promises of some super-prosperity in return for treating workers badly and taking away any pretense of economic security or economic equity, and having no responsibility except to any but the elites. Management became harsh. Monopolization and vertical integration became the norm.   

It's falling apart, and historical patterns explain why. Economic orders that work for only one small clique of elitists inevitably go bad. There is no technological fix for moral rot, including irresponsibility among elites. There is no Divine Blessing of pathological narcissism.

[Einzige]

(03-02-2021, 10:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

That is not an excuse for failing to learn about the past. Before the neoliberal era, Big Business and Big Labor were able to hammer out compromises that kept the overall economy competitive for both and ensured that Big Business made profits and workers made solid wages. The consumer economy was the reward for competent, dedicated, diligent service to the engine of prosperity and progress. 

Then Ronald Reagan offered something new -- the capacity for elites to make wild promises of some super-prosperity in return for treating workers badly and taking away any pretense of economic security or economic equity, and having no responsibility except to any but the elites. Management became harsh. Monopolization and vertical integration became the norm.   

It's falling apart, and historical patterns explain why. Economic orders that work for only one small clique of elitists inevitably go bad. There is no technological fix for moral rot, including irresponsibility among elites. There is no Divine Blessing of pathological narcissism.

Spoiler: There isn't a policy fix within the system which produced it, either.

[pbrower2a]

(03-02-2021, 10:04 AM)Einzige Wrote:

(03-02-2021, 10:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

That is not an excuse for failing to learn about the past. Before the neoliberal era, Big Business and Big Labor were able to hammer out compromises that kept the overall economy competitive for both and ensured that Big Business made profits and workers made solid wages. The consumer economy was the reward for competent, dedicated, diligent service to the engine of prosperity and progress. 

Then Ronald Reagan offered something new -- the capacity for elites to make wild promises of some super-prosperity in return for treating workers badly and taking away any pretense of economic security or economic equity, and having no responsibility except to any but the elites. Management became harsh. Monopolization and vertical integration became the norm.   

It's falling apart, and historical patterns explain why. Economic orders that work for only one small clique of elitists inevitably go bad. There is no technological fix for moral rot, including irresponsibility among elites. There is no Divine Blessing of pathological narcissism.

Spoiler: There isn't a policy fix within the system which produced it, either.

Second spoiler: the urge to exploit and abuse people has nothing to do with the economic structure. 

Third spoiler: human nature is so complex that simple models invariably fail as behavior adapts to the new model of social organization or management.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-02-2021, 10:01 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-24-2021, 01:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Labor is mainly being displaced by foreign trade policies and machines to a lesser extent. Are you getting rich off doing business with China? Are you kicking back and living of a dividend check or stocks associated with Chinese trade or getting a kick back for use of ports or a political kick back to ensure lopsided trade deals remain in place?

I thought you liked capitalism, because that's the reason for all of this.  Relocating South was the mantra in the 1970s, when the Right-to-Work movement started in earnest-- anything to cut labor coasts, you know.  Offshoring was the mantra that followed, once it became obvious that labor was even cheaper elsewhere. None of this was promoted by politicians.  It was you business guys.  So blame?  Look in the mirror.

I was a kid during the 70's.

That is not an excuse for failing to learn about the past. Before the neoliberal era, Big Business and Big Labor were able to hammer out compromises that kept the overall economy competitive for both and ensured that Big Business made profits and workers made solid wages. The consumer economy was the reward for competent, dedicated, diligent service to the engine of prosperity and progress. 

Then Ronald Reagan offered something new -- the capacity for elites to make wild promises of some super-prosperity in return for treating workers badly and taking away any pretense of economic security or economic equity, and having no responsibility except to any but the elites. Management became harsh. Monopolization and vertical integration became the norm.   

It's falling apart, and historical patterns explain why. Economic orders that work for only one small clique of elitists inevitably go bad. There is no technological fix for moral rot, including irresponsibility among elites. There is no Divine Blessing of pathological narcissism.

I put a slightly different spin on it.  Elite classes will seek benefit for the elite classes and oppress the workers if given the chance.  Marxist revolutions give such a chance.  The Party becomes an elite class.  The union of elite money and racist votes was another chance.  The Republicans took it.  Kings took it too.  For a long time during the Agricultural Age the nobles had a monopoly on military power, and used it.

But these days I am inclined to believe the worst flaw in a culture is addressed during the crisis.  Any problem not fixed will grow.  A crisis will eventually come.  Problems will be solved.

The division of wealth is getting to be the biggest problem in the culture.  I can agree with Einzige that the problem will be addressed.  Marx did see a valid problem.  I disagree that violence is the common way to change democratic cultures in the Information Age.  Autocratic cultures, maybe.  They are poor at listening to the people.  It may come to violence as the last resort.  

But the crisis level problems this time include racisim and fixing the economy enough to feed the kids and keep a roof over their heads.  I see the worst problems being solved in a crisis, but not all problems.

[Einzige]

It's amusing that you draw a hard and fast distinction between "democratic" and "autocratic" cultures. Iran has competing political parties, lmfao.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-02-2021, 11:00 AM)Einzige Wrote: It's amusing that you draw a hard and fast distinction between "democratic" and "autocratic" cultures. Iran has competing political parties, lmfao.

Not so hard and fast.  Some cultures are in transition.  For the most part, though, most can tell the difference.

[pbrower2a]

(03-02-2021, 11:00 AM)Einzige Wrote: It's amusing that you draw a hard and fast distinction between "democratic" and "autocratic" cultures. Iran has competing political parties, lmfao.

Mostafa Hessami
, M.A. Islamic Theology and Philosophy & Islamic Mysticism, Qom University (2019)
Answered February 19, 2018


Iran is not democratic because democracy is a myth (apart from the question of whether tyranny of the mindless majority, even if possible, is better than a wise popular leadership). For people are always led, guided, conditioned, manipulated, or brainwashed by non-elected powers be it a Communist party, a Fascist party, corporate media, the royals, the king, or yes a religious leader. “Liberal democracies” are no exception to that. For an empirical corroboration look at the concentration of media in US: Only 6 FOR-PROFIT corporations determine what Americans know about the world according to most recent stats. Yeah, this is probably the most pernicious way of controlling and taming “democracies” towards the interests of the non-elected ruling corporate class without people realizing they are duped. You control the people’s opinions and you control the people’s behaviors!



As for Iran, though, the Constitution and the leaders are explicit about the fact that Iran is a guided democracy, guided by a religious scholar who himself is guided by the principles of Islam and has to possess exceptional ethical and practical qualifications such as piety, selflessness, modesty, benevolence, leadership capabilities, knowledge of world affairs etc.

My comment:

The mullahs control what parties can get on the ballot, and they effectively narrow the political life to a small range of political debate with at most subtle differences. The mullahs can veto anything and get away with it, which is how the Romanov court did things in Russia just before the 1917  revolutions. Such was not generally recognized as democracy... and it still isn't. 


 

Obviously the cabinet is unelected in all countries. So there is an elected President with little real power, and a debating-club parliament that can achieve nothing without the consent of the Mullahs.  

...I recognize that we Americans have less than an ideal democracy. The corporate bosses play a game of cat-and-mouse, allowing us to get an occasional taste of government of the People, by the People, and for the People -- only to find suitable, pliant stooges like Ron Jonson, Tom Cotton, and Kristi Noem who get huge amounts of campaign cash and support from shadowy front groups to do the dirty work of smearing the opponent while the candidate is supposedly above that. Then we end up with government of the People, by the People, and for the People (really wealth and bureaucratic power).

[Eric the Green]

John Oliver explains what has happened to unemployment insurance, which is why we needed federal action this week, and in previous weeks. But afterward, further federal action will be needed. I used to be able to collect unemployment insurance that I had paid for through deductions in my paycheck, and I got it just by standing in line for a few minutes. Now the neo-liberals have taken away what we pay for. Even in CA there was fraud which caused people not to get their benefits and others got them who didn't need them. The red and purple states have over the last 10 years used their trickle-down, self-reliance, free-market memes to do Classic Xer's bidding and shut off benefits unless they do all kinds of extra things, and these states have been allowing all kinds of tech breakdowns. And Florida proves its mettle again as one of the worst states in America, because of the ruthless ignorance and meanness of its Republicans. Even make applicants jump over buses. ha ha. Just give all the business bosses the power to hire and fire whomever they want whenever they want, without any cost to them or help for their victims. Obey their every whim and temper, or starve and die. Which is tyranny of the worst sort. Elmo, behave yourself!

[Einzige]

John Oliver is a worthless Democratic shill and propagandist for the left wing of Capital.

[David Horn]

We're on the brink of retaking what was lost ... at least some of it. Unfortunately, we need far more than 'what was lost'. The economy has grown and the ownership class has taken so much and left so little, that a little reverse gouging will be unavoidable. Prepare to hear the cries of the whiny wealthy: "UNFAIR! COMFISCATORY! JOB-KILLING!" It's coming. When and how much are the only questions.

[Einzige]

(03-09-2021, 04:34 PM)David Horn Wrote: We're on the brink of retaking what was lost ... at least some of it.  Unfortunately, we need far more than 'what was lost'.  The economy has grown and the ownership class has taken so much and left so little, that a little reverse gouging will be unavoidable.  Prepare to hear the cries of the whiny wealthy: "UNFAIR!  COMFISCATORY!  JOB-KILLING!"  It's coming.  When and how much are the only questions.

The secret to it is that the Democrats only intend to "confiscate" enough to Kickstart the entire process all over again.

[Eric the Green]

(03-02-2021, 11:00 AM)Einzige Wrote: It's amusing that you draw a hard and fast distinction between "democratic" and "autocratic" cultures. Iran has competing political parties, lmfao.

lmfao that Einzige sees no difference....

Quote:John Oliver is a worthless Democratic shill and propagandist for the left wing of Capital.

lmfao. Faint praise from the likes of you!

[Eric the Green]

(03-02-2021, 07:06 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Towards the end of the blue awakening, Peggy Lee put out a single.  The chorus ran…

Quote:Is that all there is, is that all there is?
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

Is that all there is to a crisis?

I mean, most of the conversation is the one facet wonders expounding on their one facet?

Great song, I loved it. And it almost seems like this excerpt. Which may be fitting for our times too. 





Earlier in this episode, Kenneth Clark spoke of the numbness of repeated disappointments in the revolutionary quest for freedom.
https://youtu.be/pq56Kzc3jI4?t=1766