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Quote:Confederate politicians and generals, people who sacrificed large numbers of cannon fodder in the defense of slavery. Those are not heroes. We have plenty of military heroes from John Pershing to Norman Schwartzkopf to replace them, as well as genuine heroes who stood for the denied liberties of southern blacks.
I'm unsure what this was in response to, but like most people, I have asked myself "what would I have done if it were me in Nazi Germany?" The answer is quite straightforward: war has nothing to do with justice, nothing to do with heroism and nothing to do with morality. War has to do with survival and protecting your friends, your family and your way of life. That means, in all likelihood, I wouldn't enlist at all, but neither would I wage war against my countrymen. If I were drafted, I'd probably find a way to escape, even if that involved murdering a few people and/or faking my own death.
I would apply this same logic to any war, even if I believe in one moral cause over another, or view a war as necessary for some broader collective reason (ex: if you are invaded, if another country is taking over a region with whom trade is vital to your economy, etc).
ammosexual
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07-23-2022, 03:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2022, 03:50 AM by Eric the Green.)
(07-20-2022, 08:45 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Quote:A government taking temporary health measures to protect the people is not "draconian". What is amazing is that in our still-3T neoliberal society a mostly-Republican crowd can be mobilized to resist what in earlier turnings would have been accepted without protest. It just shows how low neoliberal free-market crap has taken us. Really pathetic and disgusting!
Forcing businesses to close down while allowing big corporations to stay open is extremely draconian, and, as you correctly claimed, neo-liberal cronyism at it's most pathetic and disgusting.
I would rather that small businesses remain open than the big corporations, but the lockdowns were necessary on a temporary basis, and the government provided money to help people through it. It was all the right thing to do, but is not necessary going forward. At least we can hope not.
Quote:Quote:And some statues being taken down and names changed hardly tampers with individual choices in life and freedoms either.
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....”
~Noam Chomsky (I may not agree with him politically, but that 10% of the time he is right, he is really on the money)
We shouldn't ignore soft authoritarianism until it morphs into harder forms (although if you want examples of that, see previous conversation on doxxing)
I've already forgotten what that means. So many terms coming on all the time in a world I don't inhabit.
Taking down statues of authoritarians promotes freedom.
Quote:Quote:Our society is willing even-more than Europe to roll over and accept an autocratic, entertaining demagogue attaining presidential power and a Party dedicated to taking down our entire democracy and republic. We are no longer MORE dedicated to "freedom" than the Europeans are, but LESS. They are willing and able to not elect a LePen and to take down a Johnson than we are able to take down a Trump and a Bannon.
Tell me more about this supposed autocrat who wants everyone (including his dissenters) to own guns and did nothing to censor free speech. Trump wasn't an autocrat, he was just an asshole. There is a difference.
He is both, in spades. I fear that you may be an enabler of Trump autocracy, as is anyone who can't see that he's an autocrat, the nearest thing we've ever had to it in power.
Too many people own guns in the USA, and that is very authoritarian. It just means that the gun carrier or owner threatens power over others with guns. It also means private armies taking over the country, which is how fascists attain power. And they threaten to do just that now in the USA. Beware!
Quote:Quote:Gee, I'm surprised you disagree with my points in this rather-impolite rant of mine
if that qualified as an "impolite rant", my ass probably sounds like a drunk redneck on Jerry Springer. This is America. Angry political rants is what we do
OK then.... well thanks for understanding...
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Quote:I've already forgotten what that means. So many terms coming on all the time in a world I don't inhabit.
Sadly, a lot of education is really just...keeping up with all the new, innovative ways people have to screw you over and how to defend yourself against said crooks. Given the contents of many of your posts, it's likely your own work experience led you to the same conclusion. In that light, I think retirees can be forgiven for failing to keep up with all the latest financial and psychological abuse techniques done by individuals they have little chance of meaningfully interacting with.
ammosexual
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If you aren't willing to at least fight for something...why should people encourage you or give you any hope? You've already decided you have nothing to fight for and that you don't matter, so why should you matter to anyone else?
I'm sorry. As a Christian, I always try to remember "we are made in God's image" and "love thy neighbor as thy self", and I try really hard not to be a social Darwinist, but if you aren't at least going to try....who cares about you? You're dead weight, just die....
ammosexual
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(08-10-2022, 04:02 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If you aren't willing to at least fight for something...why should people encourage you or give you any hope? You've already decided you have nothing to fight for and that you don't matter, so why should you matter to anyone else?
I'm sorry. As a Christian, I always try to remember "we are made in God's image" and "love thy neighbor as thy self", and I try really hard not to be a social Darwinist, but if you aren't at least going to try....who cares about you? You're dead weight, just die....
It may be taking action but not necessarily "fighting". I don't know who you refer to but not me.
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(07-21-2022, 02:39 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Quote:Confederate politicians and generals, people who sacrificed large numbers of cannon fodder in the defense of slavery. Those are not heroes. We have plenty of military heroes from John Pershing to Norman Schwartzkopf to replace them, as well as genuine heroes who stood for the denied liberties of southern blacks.
I'm unsure what this was in response to,
It is about statues raised in honor of Confederate generals and politicians. Ironically most of those date from around 1915, about a half-century after the end of the Civil War. Some white Southerners wanted to remake the Confederate side in the Civil War into some noble purpose. 1915 is -- perhaps not coincidentally -- the year of the founding of the Second Ku Klux Klan, a group that had most of the salient characteristics of European fascism. Mussolini was still a wayward socialist, and Hitler was a failed artist who found soldiering as his calling. Mussolini and Hitler learned from the KKK -- not the other way around.
The Civil War was a catastrophic blunder for the slave-holding interests. The best hope for them would have been the abolition of slavery as done in the British Empire a quarter-century earlier. It's hard to know what abolitionists were thinking, but that might have worked had it not been for the hot-heads on both sides. The end of Reconstruction allowed Southern whites to get away with some bad habits that in the end left them mostly poor, ill-educated, and lacking in opportunity. Southern blacks were taking the capitalist path to prosperity by starting businesses and getting formal education; consigning people to a new form of serfdom is one way to waste the talents not only of the victims but also of the enforcers.
Quote:but like most people, I have asked myself "what would I have done if it were me in Nazi Germany?" The answer is quite straightforward: war has nothing to do with justice, nothing to do with heroism and nothing to do with morality. War has to do with survival and protecting your friends, your family and your way of life. That means, in all likelihood, I wouldn't enlist at all, but neither would I wage war against my countrymen. If I were drafted, I'd probably find a way to escape, even if that involved murdering a few people and/or faking my own death.
Nazi Germany is so extreme that it makes most philosophical and moral arguments mute. The clampdown on immigration ensured that the only valid way to get Jews out of peril would have been an Underground Railroad that got whole families out of Germany. Jews faring well in such places as the British Raj (India) and the American colony in the Philippines would have made a mockery of Nazi antisemitism.
Nazi Germany was a Hell in which the definition of morality was "what does the Fuhrer want?" instead of older definitions of morality. Jews may be no political or social monolith, but Jewish morality is well developed. A people that has been discussing the fine points of the Torah has a clear edge in discerning Right and Wrong. To put it crudely, there was nothing wrong with the German people between 1933 and 1945 that Judaism would not have solved. Tradition is often a viable alternative when moral and intellectual innovations implode or when novel technologies have unwelcome consequences (as with drunk driving as a consequence of alcoholics starting to drive). It was a strange world in which any semblance of freedom came with abject conformity and deference, hatred became an expression of official patriotism, people who had done nothing wrong became scapegoats for all recent failures of the German people, objective reality became irrelevant, and old standards of Right and Wrong had been reduced to sentimental prudery, The one group of Germans who consistently did not fall for this was the Jews. German Jews were really Germans of Jewish religion, and many 'foreign' Jews (from Poland, Russia, Romania, etc.) assimilated into German culture completely.
I doubt that anyone can say what he would do if he lived in Nazi Germany. Knowing what one now knows, even if as a German, would be impossible. People who hear enough one-sided propaganda get their morals, psychological makeup, and sensibilities eroded. The Nazis well kept the Holocaust a well-guarded secret. Anyone who suggested that the Nazis were up to no more harm than dispossession, abuse, and robbery of Jews would have been seen as insane or guilty of listening to Allied propaganda.
Quote:I would apply this same logic to any war, even if I believe in one moral cause over another, or view a war as necessary for some broader collective reason (ex: if you are invaded, if another country is taking over a region with whom trade is vital to your economy, etc).
Evil people are often remarkably competent at believing that what they do is the Will of God.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(08-10-2022, 04:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It may be taking action but not necessarily "fighting". I don't know who you refer to but not me.
Indeed, it doesn't need to be "fighting", especially not in the literal sense of combat.
ammosexual
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How about controversial political opinions turned upside down? Roughly twenty years ago, I referred to one Rudolph Giuliani as a suburban brownshirt in these parts, and was excoriated for it. Now, and guess what? He's maybe about to be disbarred. But despite valiantly fighting for delicious non-fat yogurt that tastes like fatty yogurt (hint: it wasn't; in fact, it wasn't even real, of course), he was always the knowing son of a low level mobster.
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(12-16-2022, 01:10 AM)linus Wrote: How about controversial political opinions turned upside down? Roughly twenty years ago, I referred to one Rudolph Giuliani as a suburban brownshirt in these parts, and was excoriated for it. Now, and guess what? He's maybe about to be disbarred. But despite valiantly fighting for delicious non-fat yogurt that tastes like fatty yogurt (hint: it wasn't; in fact, it wasn't even real, of course), he was always the knowing son of a low level mobster.
There is a level of rot in the GOP that attracts miscreants like Rudy. It's sad that it only became blantanly obvious in the lst 20 years or so. It's been that way for a very long time. Scumbaggery will always find a way.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(12-16-2022, 09:50 AM)David Horn Wrote: (12-16-2022, 01:10 AM)linus Wrote: How about controversial political opinions turned upside down? Roughly twenty years ago, I referred to one Rudolph Giuliani as a suburban brownshirt in these parts, and was excoriated for it. Now, and guess what? He's maybe about to be disbarred. But despite valiantly fighting for delicious non-fat yogurt that tastes like fatty yogurt (hint: it wasn't; in fact, it wasn't even real, of course), he was always the knowing son of a low level mobster.
There is a level of rot in the GOP that attracts miscreants like Rudy. It's sad that it only became blatantly obvious in the last 20 years or so. It's been that way for a very long time. Scumbaggery will always find a way.
At least as late as 9/11 and its aftermath, Rudy Giuliani did well in hiding his Dark Side, at least outside of New York City aside of prosecuting overt criminals. One does not prosecute mobsters with the aid of kindness and tolerance, so someone like he could be useful. He had a Presidential campaign that went badly.
Latching onto Donald Trump looks like a huge blunder. Maybe we see in him the narcissistic character that could most easily connect to the definitive narcissist, especially when he no longer needs to cover up his narcissism. Give and take has been the norm in American politics until the Gingrich era. Narcissism is much the norm in politics in all nations and all ideologies; a working democracy can force narcissists to be more clever in getting what they want (a dam in your district for a superhighway in yours, or nobody gets anything).
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Eric The Green
Awhile back, you asked for evidence when I said that early wave Zoomers and late wave millennials just flat out didn't want to work. I don't remember where you asked for it, but here is a poll indicating 10% of young people saying they never plan on getting a job. The majority of first and middle wave millennials have been trying to fight stereotypes about us being "lazy" for 10-20 years, and we were just starting to make progress until this shit became popular.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/one...3e1c8hiJDQ
PS: In spite of this observation, I try give individuals the benefit of the doubt and not throw people under the bus. The 2020s are a REALLY shitty time to be in your teens to early 20s, and the ones who are coworkers are, by definition, among the ones willing to work. Still, I can't help but be a little annoyed at how millennials as a whole have lost a lot of progress in terms of being taken seriously at work because of this nonsense.
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(12-16-2022, 09:50 AM)David Horn Wrote: (12-16-2022, 01:10 AM)linus Wrote: How about controversial political opinions turned upside down? Roughly twenty years ago, I referred to one Rudolph Giuliani as a suburban brownshirt in these parts, and was excoriated for it. Now, and guess what? He's maybe about to be disbarred. But despite valiantly fighting for delicious non-fat yogurt that tastes like fatty yogurt (hint: it wasn't; in fact, it wasn't even real, of course), he was always the knowing son of a low level mobster.
There is a level of rot in the GOP that attracts miscreants like Rudy. It's sad that it only became blantanly obvious in the lst 20 years or so. It's been that way for a very long time. Scumbaggery will always find a way.
That's right, I'm sure. My opinion of him was informed less by the big ticket stuff he did as mayor, then the stuff you heard from people you knew who lived in the city at the time, owned small businesses there, and so on - lots of allegations of smarmy behavior and abuses of power by his people.
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(12-16-2022, 10:35 PM)linus Wrote: (12-16-2022, 09:50 AM)David Horn Wrote: (12-16-2022, 01:10 AM)linus Wrote: How about controversial political opinions turned upside down? Roughly twenty years ago, I referred to one Rudolph Giuliani as a suburban brownshirt in these parts, and was excoriated for it. Now, and guess what? He's maybe about to be disbarred. But despite valiantly fighting for delicious non-fat yogurt that tastes like fatty yogurt (hint: it wasn't; in fact, it wasn't even real, of course), he was always the knowing son of a low level mobster.
There is a level of rot in the GOP that attracts miscreants like Rudy. It's sad that it only became blantanly obvious in the lst 20 years or so. It's been that way for a very long time. Scumbaggery will always find a way.
That's right, I'm sure. My opinion of him was informed less by the big ticket stuff he did as mayor, then the stuff you heard from people you knew who lived in the city at the time, owned small businesses there, and so on - lots of allegations of smarmy behavior and abuses of power by his people.
The locals better know what is going on than do outsiders. National news media did not show the "smarmy behavior and abuse of power" against small business. New York City had a reputation of social rot, and the news media wanted a hero. Giuliani fit the bill if one ignored the heavy-handed behavior. So crime did go down because the police started arresting turnstile jumpers at the subway.
Some people wanted New York City to become "Singapore on the Hudson" as they understood it. Everything but the caning and the death penalty for involvement with illegal drugs, of course. Property values did increase, which is great for a landlord, if not for renters who get priced into Binghamton.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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12-17-2022, 01:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2022, 05:26 PM by Eric the Green.)
(12-16-2022, 05:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Eric The Green
Awhile back, you asked for evidence when I said that early wave Zoomers and late wave millennials just flat out didn't want to work. I don't remember where you asked for it, but here is a poll indicating 10% of young people saying they never plan on getting a job. The majority of first and middle wave millennials have been trying to fight stereotypes about us being "lazy" for 10-20 years, and we were just starting to make progress until this shit became popular.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/one...3e1c8hiJDQ
PS: In spite of this observation, I try give individuals the benefit of the doubt and not throw people under the bus. The 2020s are a REALLY shitty time to be in your teens to early 20s, and the ones who are coworkers are, by definition, among the ones willing to work. Still, I can't help but be a little annoyed at how millennials as a whole have lost a lot of progress in terms of being taken seriously at work because of this nonsense.
The "nonsense" seems to me to be the inequality and lack of mobility and opportunity in today's neo-liberal society in which minimum wages are blocked, overtime pay has ended which costs millions of jobs, education is devalued, and the rich take far more than their share of what our economy produces. There is also the problems of automation and outsourcing. There's lots of reasons for millennials to be discouraged about their prospects in this economy.
From the article:
" ‘High youth unemployment has been an issue for more than a decade and the pandemic was just another challenge heaped onto an already creaking system that makes it incredibly difficult for young people to convert their aspirations into good jobs.
‘In addition, our research found that young people who have faced additional challenges, such as young carers, care and prison leavers and those who come from less affluent families, are falling way behind their peers in the labour market at the earliest stage of their careers.
‘The current system is baking in inequality and preventing millions of young people from meeting their potential.’
More than two in five (43%) do not believe that their education has equipped them with the skills they need to get the job they want.
Two thirds (64%) of young people say that it is not easy to get a good job these days, and nearly a third (29%) say they have struggled to get interviews.
One in five (19%) say there simply aren’t the jobs available in their local area."
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12-17-2022, 05:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2022, 05:40 PM by Eric the Green.)
(07-21-2022, 02:39 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Quote:Confederate politicians and generals, people who sacrificed large numbers of cannon fodder in the defense of slavery. Those are not heroes. We have plenty of military heroes from John Pershing to Norman Schwartzkopf to replace them, as well as genuine heroes who stood for the denied liberties of southern blacks.
I'm unsure what this was in response to, but like most people, I have asked myself "what would I have done if it were me in Nazi Germany?" The answer is quite straightforward: war has nothing to do with justice, nothing to do with heroism and nothing to do with morality. War has to do with survival and protecting your friends, your family and your way of life. That means, in all likelihood, I wouldn't enlist at all, but neither would I wage war against my countrymen. If I were drafted, I'd probably find a way to escape, even if that involved murdering a few people and/or faking my own death.
I would apply this same logic to any war, even if I believe in one moral cause over another, or view a war as necessary for some broader collective reason (ex: if you are invaded, if another country is taking over a region with whom trade is vital to your economy, etc).
I admit I feel more like a war-monger these days than the pacifist I used to be, but there are distinct limits to my war-mongering that I still believe in. I don't approve of the USA or any other country invading another country unless it's in response to an attack on us or our allies. I do believe in upholding treaties and alliances. I want the USA to help other peoples rising up against their dictators, but only if they ask us to through a reputable government in exile or freedom-fighting group, and not by invading or by bombing that country. Biden is observing these principles in helping Ukraine push back against its totally unjustified and war-criminal Russian invasion and the destruction by Russia of their country and their people. I disagree with imperial aspirations and support independence movements against them.
Would I serve in a war; probably not me, either, but I am too old now and I was always too handicapped to be accepted, probably a deliberate choice I made when I incarnated through a mother with a similar handicap and a pacifist father into a nation that I knew would be going to war unjustly when I was coming of military age. But if conditions were better than that in this regard, and the cause truly just as I described, who knows; I might.
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(12-16-2022, 05:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Eric The Green
Awhile back, you asked for evidence when I said that early wave Zoomers and late wave millennials just flat out didn't want to work. I don't remember where you asked for it, but here is a poll indicating 10% of young people saying they never plan on getting a job. The majority of first and middle wave millennials have been trying to fight stereotypes about us being "lazy" for 10-20 years, and we were just starting to make progress until this shit became popular.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/one...3e1c8hiJDQ
PS: In spite of this observation, I try give individuals the benefit of the doubt and not throw people under the bus. The 2020s are a REALLY shitty time to be in your teens to early 20s, and the ones who are coworkers are, by definition, among the ones willing to work. Still, I can't help but be a little annoyed at how millennials as a whole have lost a lot of progress in terms of being taken seriously at work because of this nonsense.
Sometime in the 2000s I was on the subway and saw an ad that mentioned job being a abbreviation for Just Over Broke. Maybe people finally internalised that and instead want something more meaningful like either a career or going straight to starting their own businesses?
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(12-17-2022, 01:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-16-2022, 05:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Eric The Green
Awhile back, you asked for evidence when I said that early wave Zoomers and late wave millennials just flat out didn't want to work. I don't remember where you asked for it, but here is a poll indicating 10% of young people saying they never plan on getting a job. The majority of first and middle wave millennials have been trying to fight stereotypes about us being "lazy" for 10-20 years, and we were just starting to make progress until this shit became popular.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/one...3e1c8hiJDQ
PS: In spite of this observation, I try give individuals the benefit of the doubt and not throw people under the bus. The 2020s are a REALLY shitty time to be in your teens to early 20s, and the ones who are coworkers are, by definition, among the ones willing to work. Still, I can't help but be a little annoyed at how millennials as a whole have lost a lot of progress in terms of being taken seriously at work because of this nonsense.
The "nonsense" seems to me to be the inequality and lack of mobility and opportunity in today's neo-liberal society in which minimum wages are blocked, overtime pay has ended which costs millions of jobs, education is devalued, and the rich take far more than their share of what our economy produces. There is also the problems of automation and outsourcing. There's lots of reasons for millennials to be discouraged about their prospects in this economy.
From the article:
" ‘High youth unemployment has been an issue for more than a decade and the pandemic was just another challenge heaped onto an already creaking system that makes it incredibly difficult for young people to convert their aspirations into good jobs.
‘In addition, our research found that young people who have faced additional challenges, such as young carers, care and prison leavers and those who come from less affluent families, are falling way behind their peers in the labour market at the earliest stage of their careers.
‘The current system is baking in inequality and preventing millions of young people from meeting their potential.’
More than two in five (43%) do not believe that their education has equipped them with the skills they need to get the job they want.
Two thirds (64%) of young people say that it is not easy to get a good job these days, and nearly a third (29%) say they have struggled to get interviews.
One in five (19%) say there simply aren’t the jobs available in their local area."
I went through a period of years (yes, years), where it would take months to find work, then they'd fire me over something stupid, it would end up being a soliciting sales job or they just downsized. Yes, I am a right winger, but you can rest assured, the bulk of my 20s beat me down, chewed me up and spit me back out as far as the job market is concerned. If I wanted to let my discouragement win in the long run, I would have had every excuse.
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12-18-2022, 02:12 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2022, 09:11 PM by JasonBlack.)
(12-17-2022, 01:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-16-2022, 05:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Eric The Green
Awhile back, you asked for evidence when I said that early wave Zoomers and late wave millennials just flat out didn't want to work. I don't remember where you asked for it, but here is a poll indicating 10% of young people saying they never plan on getting a job. The majority of first and middle wave millennials have been trying to fight stereotypes about us being "lazy" for 10-20 years, and we were just starting to make progress until this shit became popular.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/one...3e1c8hiJDQ
PS: In spite of this observation, I try give individuals the benefit of the doubt and not throw people under the bus. The 2020s are a REALLY shitty time to be in your teens to early 20s, and the ones who are coworkers are, by definition, among the ones willing to work. Still, I can't help but be a little annoyed at how millennials as a whole have lost a lot of progress in terms of being taken seriously at work because of this nonsense.
The "nonsense" seems to me to be the inequality and lack of mobility and opportunity in today's neo-liberal society in which minimum wages are blocked, overtime pay has ended which costs millions of jobs, education is devalued, and the rich take far more than their share of what our economy produces. There is also the problems of automation and outsourcing. There's lots of reasons for millennials to be discouraged about their prospects in this economy.
From the article:
" ‘High youth unemployment has been an issue for more than a decade and the pandemic was just another challenge heaped onto an already creaking system that makes it incredibly difficult for young people to convert their aspirations into good jobs.
‘In addition, our research found that young people who have faced additional challenges, such as young carers, care and prison leavers and those who come from less affluent families, are falling way behind their peers in the labour market at the earliest stage of their careers.
‘The current system is baking in inequality and preventing millions of young people from meeting their potential.’
More than two in five (43%) do not believe that their education has equipped them with the skills they need to get the job they want.
Two thirds (64%) of young people say that it is not easy to get a good job these days, and nearly a third (29%) say they have struggled to get interviews.
One in five (19%) say there simply aren’t the jobs available in their local area."
You accused me of not having evidence only to move the goalposts.
"You don't have any evidence for late millennials/early Gen Z not wanting to work"
"Well the reason they don't want to work is because they're discouraged by current economic conditions and policies" (as if I haven't already experienced a decade of it myself).
Quote:I admit I feel more like a war-monger these days than the pacifist I used to be, but there are distinct limits to my war-mongering that I still believe in. I don't approve of the USA or any other country invading another country unless it's in response to an attack on us or our allies. I do believe in upholding treaties and alliances. I want the USA to help other peoples rising up against their dictators, but only if they ask us to through a reputable government in exile or freedom-fighting group, and not by invading or by bombing that country. Biden is observing these principles in helping Ukraine push back against its totally unjustified and war-criminal Russian invasion and the destruction by Russia of their country and their people. I disagree with imperial aspirations and support independence movements against them.
Would I serve in a war; probably not me, either, but I am too old now and I was always too handicapped to be accepted, probably a deliberate choice I made when I incarnated through a mother with a similar handicap and a pacifist father into a nation that I knew would be going to war unjustly when I was coming of military age. But if conditions were better than that in this regard, and the cause truly just as I described, who knows; I might.
I don't have a huge problem with this take as long as two conditions are met
1) It has to be in our interests. This is, admittedly, a difficult question to answer, but at the very least, it should be agreed that sending our own sons off to fight in a foreign conflict should not be done if it's not even going to benefit us in the first place.
2) A draft is only acceptable if we are directly attacked as a country (even then, I really, really don't like drafts).
With that said, I don't know much about your history with regards to support of the military, but a contention I've had with several hawkish liberal 40+ year olds is that there is a tendency to think in terms of "we need to support our allies"....but they don't view like 50% of our own military to be "allies" because they are/were Trump supporters.
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There are jobs -- but obviously not where the poor people are. In the old days the manufacturers located their factories where the poor people were, which explains why the mass employers were in certain cities. Think of the old Garment District in New York, full of southern and east-European immigrants.
I was headed away from Detroit at commute time, and I noticed that traffic was as heavy in the direction opposite the traditional commuting route to Detroit. The people driving with me were mostly black. I had no cause to believe that black workers were an inordinate share of those who work the graveyard shift, so I figure that they were headed to the service and retail jobs in the wealthier suburbs.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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12-19-2022, 03:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2022, 04:15 PM by Eric the Green.)
(12-18-2022, 02:12 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: (12-17-2022, 01:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-16-2022, 05:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Eric The Green
Awhile back, you asked for evidence when I said that early wave Zoomers and late wave millennials just flat out didn't want to work. I don't remember where you asked for it, but here is a poll indicating 10% of young people saying they never plan on getting a job. The majority of first and middle wave millennials have been trying to fight stereotypes about us being "lazy" for 10-20 years, and we were just starting to make progress until this shit became popular.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/one...3e1c8hiJDQ
PS: In spite of this observation, I try give individuals the benefit of the doubt and not throw people under the bus. The 2020s are a REALLY shitty time to be in your teens to early 20s, and the ones who are coworkers are, by definition, among the ones willing to work. Still, I can't help but be a little annoyed at how millennials as a whole have lost a lot of progress in terms of being taken seriously at work because of this nonsense.
The "nonsense" seems to me to be the inequality and lack of mobility and opportunity in today's neo-liberal society in which minimum wages are blocked, overtime pay has ended which costs millions of jobs, education is devalued, and the rich take far more than their share of what our economy produces. There is also the problems of automation and outsourcing. There's lots of reasons for millennials to be discouraged about their prospects in this economy.
From the article:
" ‘High youth unemployment has been an issue for more than a decade and the pandemic was just another challenge heaped onto an already creaking system that makes it incredibly difficult for young people to convert their aspirations into good jobs.
‘In addition, our research found that young people who have faced additional challenges, such as young carers, care and prison leavers and those who come from less affluent families, are falling way behind their peers in the labour market at the earliest stage of their careers.
‘The current system is baking in inequality and preventing millions of young people from meeting their potential.’
More than two in five (43%) do not believe that their education has equipped them with the skills they need to get the job they want.
Two thirds (64%) of young people say that it is not easy to get a good job these days, and nearly a third (29%) say they have struggled to get interviews.
One in five (19%) say there simply aren’t the jobs available in their local area."
You accused me of not having evidence only to move the goalposts.
"You don't have any evidence for late millennials/early Gen Z not wanting to work"
"Well the reason they don't want to work is because they're discouraged by current economic conditions and policies" (as if I haven't already experienced a decade of it myself).
I don't know what that means, but the only relevant fact is that you don't provide evidence for your assertion.
Quote:Quote:I admit I feel more like a war-monger these days than the pacifist I used to be, but there are distinct limits to my war-mongering that I still believe in. I don't approve of the USA or any other country invading another country unless it's in response to an attack on us or our allies. I do believe in upholding treaties and alliances. I want the USA to help other peoples rising up against their dictators, but only if they ask us to through a reputable government in exile or freedom-fighting group, and not by invading or by bombing that country. Biden is observing these principles in helping Ukraine push back against its totally unjustified and war-criminal Russian invasion and the destruction by Russia of their country and their people. I disagree with imperial aspirations and support independence movements against them.
Would I serve in a war; probably not me, either, but I am too old now and I was always too handicapped to be accepted, probably a deliberate choice I made when I incarnated through a mother with a similar handicap and a pacifist father into a nation that I knew would be going to war unjustly when I was coming of military age. But if conditions were better than that in this regard, and the cause truly just as I described, who knows; I might.
I don't have a huge problem with this take as long as two conditions are met
1) It has to be in our interests. This is, admittedly, a difficult question to answer, but at the very least, it should be agreed that sending our own sons off to fight in a foreign conflict should not be done if it's not even going to benefit us in the first place.
2) A draft is only acceptable if we are directly attacked as a country (even then, I really, really don't like drafts).
With that said, I don't know much about your history with regards to support of the military, but a contention I've had with several hawkish liberal 40+ year olds is that there is a tendency to think in terms of "we need to support our allies"....but they don't view like 50% of our own military to be "allies" because they are/were Trump supporters.
Allies refers to foreign countries. Trump supporters may agree with Trump that we should not fulfill our treaties and alliances. I disagree; we should do so. "Interests" is irrelevant; it IS in our interest to support our allies and fulfill our commitments, including militarily if attacked. We are required to fulfill Article 5: an attack on one is an attack on all. If we don't want to do that, then we should not agree to do that.
And this is a national decison by our government, not an individual decision. If individuals disagree with serving in the military, there is a CO process, which may or may not work for the individual. It worked for my father. Not for me, I had to get a 4F designation because of the foot defect I inherited from my Mom.
To me, a draft is not acceptable. If we are directly attacked as a country, I could conceivably change my mind on that. But the problem was that a temporary war measure before was allowed to be permanent during a longer cold war.
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