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Gabrielle, I hate to break this to you darling, but women already get equal pay to men. If a businessman could save 25%, 23% or whatever the new number is by hiring women over men he'd be smart to fire all the men and hire only women. The so-called pay gap is a complete myth based on economic ignorance and statistical chicanery. It only surfaces if you take the earnings of all men and all women and do a few simple calculations without taking into consideration other factors, not the least of which is men work more overtime than women and work in higher paying fields than women.
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(05-16-2016, 09:04 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: and work in higher paying fields than women.
Gee, I wonder what could be the reason for THAT??? 
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Replying to some points made in this thread, starting here...
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...tml#pid650
...when people protest about this pay gap, it's not just about one particular number alleging that men regularly get paid more dollars than women. It's a shorthand for a wide array of factors that make it more difficult for women to advance their professional careers. One of the bigger ones I can think of is that there's still a lot of pressure for women to leave their jobs after they give birth to children while men pursue the traditional breadwinner role. The more women you have out of the workforce or at significantly reduced hours, the less pay they're going to receive in the aggregate. Much of the advocacy regarding this pay gap isn't just about money but also for equal opportunity and duties in both the workforce and in the household.
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Heh, I thought for certain I deliberately avoided using the word "gender" in my thread title, but now I see what happened. Thanks for the thread merge!
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(05-17-2016, 07:49 AM)Odin Wrote: (05-16-2016, 09:04 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: and work in higher paying fields than women.
Gee, I wonder what could be the reason for THAT???
Personal choice. Are you so sexist Odin as to deny that women have personal agency?
As far as I'm aware there is no bar to a woman working as a oil production engineer, or in water treatment, or in other STEM fields. In fact women dominate in medicine, veterinary medicine and biology.
That being said there are limited uses for those women who get their degrees in Feminist Dance Therapy.
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(05-17-2016, 10:33 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Replying to some points made in this thread, starting here...
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...tml#pid650
...when people protest about this pay gap, it's not just about one particular number alleging that men regularly get paid more dollars than women. It's a shorthand for a wide array of factors that make it more difficult for women to advance their professional careers. One of the bigger ones I can think of is that there's still a lot of pressure for women to leave their jobs after they give birth to children while men pursue the traditional breadwinner role. The more women you have out of the workforce or at significantly reduced hours, the less pay they're going to receive in the aggregate. Much of the advocacy regarding this pay gap isn't just about money but also for equal opportunity and duties in both the workforce and in the household.
You are aware that women can choose to not have children right? You are aware that females have more and better contraceptive options than men, right? You are aware that even should those options fail that women are in complete control of the unborn one until it is in fact born, right?
Or do you deny that women have personal agency too?
The problem is the myth that "you can have it all, a career and a family". When one undertakes having a family sacrifices to career often have to be made.
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05-17-2016, 03:23 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2016, 03:23 PM by Odin.)
(05-17-2016, 02:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-17-2016, 07:49 AM)Odin Wrote: (05-16-2016, 09:04 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: and work in higher paying fields than women.
Gee, I wonder what could be the reason for THAT???
Personal choice. Are you so sexist Odin as to deny that women have personal agency?
As far as I'm aware there is no bar to a woman working as a oil production engineer, or in water treatment, or in other STEM fields. In fact women dominate in medicine, veterinary medicine and biology.
That being said there are limited uses for those women who get their degrees in Feminist Dance Therapy.
Women are still subject to significant degrees of sexism in male-dominated fields and so feel discouraged from even trying to get in them. Look at the GamerGate BS, for example, how many women are going to bother trying to go into the video game industry when they risk getting their lives ruined by harassment mobs? And in At-Will states a lot of non-discrimination laws are basically toothless.
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05-17-2016, 03:50 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2016, 04:05 PM by Emman85.)
I don't know how engage this "wage gap" discussion, as a black male my race/gender group has a lower median income compared to white women and asian women, Latino men have it even worse, they only make around 61 cents to the dollar. Latino and black men's lower wages is rarely if ever brought up in the wage gap discussions, also if race is brought up they compare different racial groups of women's incomes to a white man's dollar but asian men have the highest income and asian women will soon be catching up with white men.
I also feel the whole wage gap discussion is based on very deceptive grounds(from feminists), they throw that "78 cents to a man's dollar" like that's actually equal pay to equal work. I agree with Bronco80 that there's many different factors involved for why women earn less.
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It may have existed when I first got into my career field, but I can't be sure, because I had no other females in my career field near me with which to talk to and compare salaries.
And have only met one other in over a decade, from what she and I have pieced together, we make the same and sometimes more than our male counterparts.
As for the wage gap, I work with both black men and white men, no Hispanics, but one naturalized citizen from India, we are all on roughly the same pay scale depending on certification level in Waste Water Treatment and experience.
I can tell you from trying to help females needing a job and intelligence to obtain certification get into my field, the resounding answer is "ew, I might get dirty" or something that translates to that.
So, honestly if there is a gap, it comes from their own stupidity for not realizing pretty clothes and shoes at work does not always equal and usually doesn't equal what someone who gets dirty for a living is going to make.
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(05-17-2016, 03:23 PM)Odin Wrote: Women are still subject to significant degrees of sexism in male-dominated fields and so feel discouraged from even trying to get in them. Look at the GamerGate BS, for example, how many women are going to bother trying to go into the video game industry when they risk getting their lives ruined by harassment mobs? And in At-Will states a lot of non-discrimination laws are basically toothless.
Bullshit. Women have dozens of scholarships for STEM fields not available to men. Furthermore, companies would hire a mideocre woman over a skilled man by virtue of being a woman in order to virtue signal that they are not in fact sexist.
As for Gamer Gate...See Milo.
As a resident of an at-will state, let me make it clear. If a company can save 23% on wages by hiring a woman instead of a man, they will do so. As such where are all the female engineers? The female sanitation workers? The simple fact is that women have the power to make choices. They can take this job that pays X and isn't physically demanding or doesn't require such-and-such degree, or they can take that job that pays X+Y but is physically demanding and require such-and-such degree.
Otherwise Odin your argument rests on the idea that women have no agency at all. Which last I checked was the very definition of sexism.
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(05-17-2016, 03:50 PM)Emman85 Wrote: I don't know how engage this "wage gap" discussion, as a black male my race/gender group has a lower median income compared to white women and asian women, Latino men have it even worse, they only make around 61 cents to the dollar. Latino and black men's lower wages is rarely if ever brought up in the wage gap discussions, also if race is brought up they compare different racial groups of women's incomes to a white man's dollar but asian men have the highest income and asian women will soon be catching up with white men.
First let me state, if you don't know already I too am a black male. There really isn't a racial wage gap either. Like with women, if a business can save X% on wages by hiring a black or Latino they will do so. No economist of any note takes any of the wage gap arguments seriously because it is based on false statistics.
Second, a great deal of the problem with the wages that Blacks and Latinos earn have to do with education, principly the lack of it. Generally speaking persons with degrees or skills earn more than those without degrees or skills. A large proportion of blacks and latinos have no degree and are unskilled. As such the best way to raise the median wages of both groups is to increase the proportion of persons who do have degrees and do have skills.
It should be noted that my uncle is a skilled tile setter, he makes more than my white boyfriend who has a degree. He also makes more than me, but then again my BF also makes more than me. I could if I wanted to live in New York or Chicago or LA far more money--I have a culinary degree. Instead I choose to manage the local Dunkin Donuts because my family is not in New York, Chicago or LA and I have little interest in involving myself in the rough and tumble world of competing for a Michelin Star (or three).
In short I make less money than I could because I exercised my agency to pursue something I consider of greater value.
Quote:I also feel the whole wage gap discussion is based on very deceptive grounds(from feminists), they throw that "78 cents to a man's dollar" like that's actually equal pay to equal work. I agree with Bronco80 that there's many different factors involved for why women earn less.
Off the top of my head the following variables are in play at any given time when comparing pay.
--type of work
--the danger of the work (the more dangerious the higher the pay)
--Union membership if any
--Required education (the more education you need the higher the pay, usually)
--Experience gained (the more experience the more one is paid)
--Amount of time worked. (People who work part-time or don't work overtime are paid less than people who work obscene amounts of overtime).
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(05-17-2016, 02:22 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-17-2016, 10:33 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Replying to some points made in this thread, starting here...
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...tml#pid650
...when people protest about this pay gap, it's not just about one particular number alleging that men regularly get paid more dollars than women. It's a shorthand for a wide array of factors that make it more difficult for women to advance their professional careers. One of the bigger ones I can think of is that there's still a lot of pressure for women to leave their jobs after they give birth to children while men pursue the traditional breadwinner role. The more women you have out of the workforce or at significantly reduced hours, the less pay they're going to receive in the aggregate. Much of the advocacy regarding this pay gap isn't just about money but also for equal opportunity and duties in both the workforce and in the household.
You are aware that women can choose to not have children right? You are aware that females have more and better contraceptive options than men, right? You are aware that even should those options fail that women are in complete control of the unborn one until it is in fact born, right?
Or do you deny that women have personal agency too?
The problem is the myth that "you can have it all, a career and a family". When one undertakes having a family sacrifices to career often have to be made.
Answering your questions in order:
1) Sure, but a lot of women want to have children (kind of a pretty important part of the human species and all), and many of them want to have a career too, just like men. Not all parents want both, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in the many cases where they do, there should be a presumption of equal sacrifice.
2) "Better" is a pretty broad term. Condoms might not be the most effective, but they're also by far the cheapest and easiest to get. Women have to go through several other loops to get their common forms of contraception, only made more difficult by needless legal barriers thrown up.
3) Actually, in a lot of states women don't have that complete control. We really need Scalia to get replaced on SCOTUS with someone that might get us pointed in that direction.
4) I don't believe I'm denying that, what makes you think I am?
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(05-17-2016, 03:23 PM)Odin Wrote: Women are still subject to significant degrees of sexism in male-dominated fields and so feel discouraged from even trying to get in them. Look at the GamerGate BS, for example, how many women are going to bother trying to go into the video game industry when they risk getting their lives ruined by harassment mobs? And in At-Will states a lot of non-discrimination laws are basically toothless.
A point I'll make here is that in some ways the whole GamerGate mess shows that a lot of the sexism is external. A woman can work in a place that's legitimately inclusive with strong anti-discrimination internal policies, but she can still get a barrage of sexism for external forces wanting to make her life miserable. There's some video I watched recently that I can't remember who did it (you might since this is up your wheelhouse) in which women were reading off to their male colleagues the long list of abusive, sexist comments they get daily, in hopes for a bit of a wakeup call.
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(05-18-2016, 05:33 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-17-2016, 03:50 PM)Emman85 Wrote: I don't know how engage this "wage gap" discussion, as a black male my race/gender group has a lower median income compared to white women and asian women, Latino men have it even worse, they only make around 61 cents to the dollar. Latino and black men's lower wages is rarely if ever brought up in the wage gap discussions, also if race is brought up they compare different racial groups of women's incomes to a white man's dollar but asian men have the highest income and asian women will soon be catching up with white men.
Quote:First let me state, if you don't know already I too am a black male. There really isn't a racial wage gap either. Like with women, if a business can save X% on wages by hiring a black or Latino they will do so. No economist of any note takes any of the wage gap arguments seriously because it is based on false statistics.
Second, a great deal of the problem with the wages that Blacks and Latinos earn have to do with education, principly the lack of it. Generally speaking persons with degrees or skills earn more than those without degrees or skills. A large proportion of blacks and latinos have no degree and are unskilled. As such the best way to raise the median wages of both groups is to increase the proportion of persons who do have degrees and do have skills.
I agree with everything you said, I don't believe the wage differences(with either minorities or women) are a matter of unequal pay for equal work, I think feminists have a political agenda at stake in the wage gap narrative even if it means spreading dubious propaganda.
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(05-18-2016, 08:54 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Answering your questions in order:
1) Sure, but a lot of women want to have children (kind of a pretty important part of the human species and all), and many of them want to have a career too, just like men. Not all parents want both, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in the many cases where they do, there should be a presumption of equal sacrifice.
The facts are thus. Women are the ones who give birth. Generally speaking they take at least a month of parental leave, which cuts into their earnings. Further, mothers with small children are more likely to work part time. As such that too cuts into their earnings. As such assuming that the father is present, who is the one who makes up for the economic slack caused by leave/part-time work?
Unless you have some way for human reproduction to continue without women, the simple fact is that women who will have to make a choice, working their career or having a family.
Quote:2) "Better" is a pretty broad term. Condoms might not be the most effective, but they're also by far the cheapest and easiest to get. Women have to go through several other loops to get their common forms of contraception, only made more difficult by needless legal barriers thrown up.
Rubbers when properly used have a 40% failure rate. Oral contraception when properly used has a 2% failure rate. I would say that an increase of effectiveness of 38% constitutes better.
Even so the fact remains that women are in complete control over human reproduction. Contraception options for men are as follows: Condoms or vasectomy. Generally speaking a man is not going to get a vasectomy unless he already has children.
Women on the other hand have pills, diaphragms, implants and a whole range of other options including abortion (a factor that males have no control over).
Quote:3) Actually, in a lot of states women don't have that complete control. We really need Scalia to get replaced on SCOTUS with someone that might get us pointed in that direction.
Bullshit. In many states an abortion is difficult to obtain. In all 50 birth control pills are relatively easy to obtain with a simple prescription.
Quote:4) I don't believe I'm denying that, what makes you think I am?
If you believe women have agency then even were there a pay gap it would still be a woman's choice to accept less payment than a man. However, there isn't one, and any differences in pay between men and women are subject to other forces besides who has what genitals, namely education, skill, job type and hours worked.
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(05-18-2016, 11:38 AM)Emman85 Wrote: I agree with everything you said, I don't believe the wage differences(with either minorities or women) are a matter of unequal pay for equal work, I think feminists have a political agenda at stake in the wage gap narrative even if it means spreading dubious propaganda.
The feminist agenda as far as the west goes is about self-perpetuation.
If feminism is about women having equality with men then in the West they already have it. What right or privilige do men have in the West that women do not have? What is left is a lot of noise about manspreading (men sitting with their legs more spread than women typically do--which happens for a damn good biological reason), mansplaining (daring to speak while male), so-called rape culture with vile lies about the number of persons raped/sexually assaulted (which were they true would make US college campuses on par with the war torn Congo--where rape is used as a weapon of war) and the list goes on and on.
In short feminism in the West has won. It is no longer needed yet we have all these organizations that are seeking an excuse to continue existing...and they won't dare criticize the Middle Eastern countries...you know cause "Islamophobia". Even though it is precisely those countries which need feminism of the first and second wave.
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Here is a year old briefing from the Council of Economic Advisers on the subject.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default..._final.pdf
Unless you prefer to credit a few unsubstantiated wisecracks from a youtube guy with Draco Malfoy hair.
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(05-19-2016, 12:58 AM)gabrielle Wrote: Unless you prefer to credit a few unsubstantiated wisecracks from a youtube guy with Draco Malfoy hair.
It isn't just Milo you might want to read what the Mises Institute has to say about the issue. I trust you they have much more to say about the logical errors of the report that you quoted.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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Personally I think Milo's hair is fabulous. As are the hate-facts he spreads. I think this year we'll put a cardboard portrait of Milo on the top of our Yule tree so we can have a star there. But I digress.
The fact is that any differences in pay between men and women are the result of skill, education, and choices. As The Factual Feminist, aka Based Mom, and whatever other title Christina Hoff Sommers put it. "If you want better pay get a degree in engineering instead of feminist dance therapy".
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(05-18-2016, 12:24 PM).Kinser79 Wrote: (05-18-2016, 08:54 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Answering your questions in order:
1) Sure, but a lot of women want to have children (kind of a pretty important part of the human species and all), and many of them want to have a career too, just like men. Not all parents want both, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in the many cases where they do, there should be a presumption of equal sacrifice.
The facts are thus. Women are the ones who give birth. Generally speaking they take at least a month of parental leave, which cuts into their earnings. Further, mothers with small children are more likely to work part time. As such that too cuts into their earnings. As such assuming that the father is present, who is the one who makes up for the economic slack caused by leave/part-time work?
Unless you have some way for human reproduction to continue without women, the simple fact is that women who will have to make a choice, working their career or having a family.
Quote:2) "Better" is a pretty broad term. Condoms might not be the most effective, but they're also by far the cheapest and easiest to get. Women have to go through several other loops to get their common forms of contraception, only made more difficult by needless legal barriers thrown up.
Rubbers when properly used have a 40% failure rate. Oral contraception when properly used has a 2% failure rate. I would say that an increase of effectiveness of 38% constitutes better.
Even so the fact remains that women are in complete control over human reproduction. Contraception options for men are as follows: Condoms or vasectomy. Generally speaking a man is not going to get a vasectomy unless he already has children.
Women on the other hand have pills, diaphragms, implants and a whole range of other options including abortion (a factor that males have no control over).
Quote:3) Actually, in a lot of states women don't have that complete control. We really need Scalia to get replaced on SCOTUS with someone that might get us pointed in that direction.
Bullshit. In many states an abortion is difficult to obtain. In all 50 birth control pills are relatively easy to obtain with a simple prescription.
Quote:4) I don't believe I'm denying that, what makes you think I am?
If you believe women have agency then even were there a pay gap it would still be a woman's choice to accept less payment than a man. However, there isn't one, and any differences in pay between men and women are subject to other forces besides who has what genitals, namely education, skill, job type and hours worked.
1) When it comes to paid parental leave, I believe that it should offered to mothers and fathers on an equal basis. It's the fair think to do for both men, who don't have to take on the exclusive burden of being the breadwinner, and for women, who don't have to fall behind their spouse in experience on the workplace. This helps to temper the pure biological differences that you mention, and after both parents are through with their leave, ideally it won't always be the woman that's exclusively staying at home.
2-3) I don't think anything you've said really contradicts the point I'm making. Condoms can be purchased in any typical store at any time, and used immediately. All female contraceptive options require extra effort to acquire, and some of those aspects make it disproportionately tougher on poorer women. Reproductive freedom should be available to all, and that's not the case in today's United States.
4) I certainly agree that the causes of the pay gap are subject to other forces, we just disagree as to what forces. I don't think certain sexist biases can be ruled out, such as the bias of the woman being the caretaker (countering hours worked and to some extent education), and being biased toward certain professions and against others (countering job type and skill). That's more implicit bias than simply employers actively not wanting women in high profile positions, although the latter can occasionally happen.
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