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(03-02-2017, 05:12 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
And here's a snippet from my favorite "socialist rag." (Not that I'm a socialist: I rather prefer Marxist critiques to Marxist prescriptions, as they have played out in reality.)
"The Slow Collapse of Imperial Republics"
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/01/trump-russia-election-legitimacy-imperial-power/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=email_this&utm_source=email
...If people could step outside their partisan selves for one minute, I’d ask you to consider the following fact as yet another sign of late imperial disjunction: For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born. I can’t think of a greater symptom of the weird fever dream that is the American empire, whereby the most powerful state on earth imagines, over a twelve to sixteen year period, that its elected leaders hail from the far reaches of its various antagonisms.
What ties these events together is either that they cast serious doubt on the democratic legitimacy of American institutions [including the Fourth Estate] or that they drag those institutions into the delegitimating mud of the most sordid scandals...
Most Americans--and certainly those who voted for Trump--could give a good goddamn about "fake news," wherever it originates...
Are you also arguing for turning the other check? The GOP has pretty long record of malfeasance here. Giving them a pass is a near certainty of more to come.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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Quote:Are you arguing that Breitbart is now a legitimate news source, or you just like the juicy news on TMZ?
That's cute. No, I was referring to legitimate outlets engaging in gossip and innuendo. I don't read either one.
Quote:Where?
ON THE FAKE NEWS THREAD, as I literally pointed out in the bit you quoted. 
NYT, Ellen Pao, radical rewrites, none of that rings a bell?
Quote:Al Franken isn't a lawyer. If I was in his position, I wouldn't make that case either. Several lawyer/legislators have made the case, which is a much better option.
In any case, is it more or less egregious than lying about a blowjob. That seems to be the standard.
I think a halfway competent lawyer could argue that that question was whether he had communications with the government in his capacity as a campaign surrogate, not in his day job as a member of the Senate Armed Forces committee.
But I'm not a lawyer either, so I will let them fight it out if that is the direction they choose to go with it.
Quote:Are you arguing that turnabout is not fair play? I know Bob is always on the side of compromise, but is letting this pass a compromise or a free pass to do anything?
We have a Congressional majority that got to be one by saying no to everything, and now wants the minority to let bygones be bygones. If the Democrats lie down and agree to let this pass, they will have performed the greatest self-neutering in history. Remember, the Democrats let the eight years of Clinton investigations go and tried to work with GWB. That didn't work at all well. I don't see them doing that twice, and they stand on pretty firm ground with Trump and the current Congress. They may lose, but they have to go down fighting if they ever expect to be taken seriously again.
What? The partisanship is stupid, on both sides, but that's not what I was talking about. I am more concerned with the popular hysteria, particularly in the political/media class, over Russia. A couple of cranks on an obscure message board is merely comical, the same beliefs among our senior political leadership and their mouthpieces in the press could lead to actual, no-bullshit Great Power war.
Which would be bad. 
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(03-02-2017, 05:33 PM)David Horn Wrote: (03-02-2017, 05:12 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
And here's a snippet from my favorite "socialist rag." (Not that I'm a socialist: I rather prefer Marxist critiques to Marxist prescriptions, as they have played out in reality.)
"The Slow Collapse of Imperial Republics"
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/01/trump-russia-election-legitimacy-imperial-power/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=email_this&utm_source=email
...If people could step outside their partisan selves for one minute, I’d ask you to consider the following fact as yet another sign of late imperial disjunction: For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born. I can’t think of a greater symptom of the weird fever dream that is the American empire, whereby the most powerful state on earth imagines, over a twelve to sixteen year period, that its elected leaders hail from the far reaches of its various antagonisms.
What ties these events together is either that they cast serious doubt on the democratic legitimacy of American institutions [including the Fourth Estate] or that they drag those institutions into the delegitimating mud of the most sordid scandals...
Most Americans--and certainly those who voted for Trump--could give a good goddamn about "fake news," wherever it originates...
Are you also arguing for turning the other check? The GOP has pretty long record of malfeasance here. Giving them a pass is a near certainty of more to come.
Not necessarily. But one thing I learned early on as a teacher--mainly by substituting all over a big school district, as a way to hone a classroom management style prior to becoming a full-time teacher--is not to fight little battles. Writing up students for small infractions, like chewing gum in class, was not the way I wanted to invest my emotional and ethical "capital." I saved that for the big issues, like cheating and bullying. This kerfuffle with Jeff Sessions strikes me as just so much Democratic revanchism for whatever reason. Maybe the Democrats will succeed in getting a scalp by having Sessions resign. (I don't think he will.) And, personally, his recusing himself from any future investigation is sufficient penance...for now. Ask yourself this: Does our country really have the luxury of pursuing a long, expensive, and contentious investigation into the whole Trump/Russia connection? I don't think so.
I say move on. This is not the battle Democrats want to fight, nor are they in a position of strength to successfully wage such a battle. If Trump and the GOP is going to be tripped up at all, let it be by virtue of their economic failings, not some low-grade ethical scandal. And by the way, I'm rooting for Trump to be successful (with some qualifications). There's simply too much at stake for all of us if he should fail. And that's coming from someone who opposed his candidacy every step of the way.
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(03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
No, you Trump supporters are the insane ones, the rest of us are horrified and outraged by your guys' willful disregard of anything that shows your Dear Leader and his handlers to be the traitors they are, to the point of calling deeply respected news sources "fake news".
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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03-02-2017, 08:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-02-2017, 08:19 PM by Eric the Green.)
(03-02-2017, 06:00 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (03-02-2017, 05:33 PM)David Horn Wrote: (03-02-2017, 05:12 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
And here's a snippet from my favorite "socialist rag." (Not that I'm a socialist: I rather prefer Marxist critiques to Marxist prescriptions, as they have played out in reality.)
"The Slow Collapse of Imperial Republics"
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/01/trump-russia-election-legitimacy-imperial-power/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=email_this&utm_source=email
...If people could step outside their partisan selves for one minute, I’d ask you to consider the following fact as yet another sign of late imperial disjunction: For the last eight years, we’ve had a president who half the country thinks is Muslim, Kenyan-born. For the next four, maybe eight, years, we will have a president who half the country thinks is the Manchurian Candidate, Russian-born. I can’t think of a greater symptom of the weird fever dream that is the American empire, whereby the most powerful state on earth imagines, over a twelve to sixteen year period, that its elected leaders hail from the far reaches of its various antagonisms.
What ties these events together is either that they cast serious doubt on the democratic legitimacy of American institutions [including the Fourth Estate] or that they drag those institutions into the delegitimating mud of the most sordid scandals...
Most Americans--and certainly those who voted for Trump--could give a good goddamn about "fake news," wherever it originates...
Are you also arguing for turning the other check? The GOP has pretty long record of malfeasance here. Giving them a pass is a near certainty of more to come.
Not necessarily. But one thing I learned early on as a teacher--mainly by substituting all over a big school district, as a way to hone a classroom management style prior to becoming a full-time teacher--is not to fight little battles. Writing up students for small infractions, like chewing gum in class, was not the way I wanted to invest my emotional and ethical "capital." I saved that for the big issues, like cheating and bullying. This kerfuffle with Jeff Sessions strikes me as just so much Democratic revanchism for whatever reason. Maybe the Democrats will succeed in getting a scalp by having Sessions resign. (I don't think he will.) And, personally, his recusing himself from any future investigation is sufficient penance...for now. Ask yourself this: Does our country really have the luxury of pursuing a long, expensive, and contentious investigation into the whole Trump/Russia connection? I don't think so.
I say move on. This is not the battle Democrats want to fight, nor are they in a position of strength to successfully wage such a battle. If Trump and the GOP is going to be tripped up at all, let it be by virtue of their economic failings, not some low-grade ethical scandal. And by the way, I'm rooting for Trump to be successful (with some qualifications). There's simply too much at stake for all of us if he should fail. And that's coming from someone who opposed his candidacy every step of the way.
I don't think I agree. Sure, we don't want Trump to make a mistake that gets the nation into a war or another great depression. But this kind of scandal is just what needs to happen, to expose the Drump team as the liars and cheaters that they are. The more trouble they are in, the less damage they can do by enacting their "economic failings," meaning all of their wrong economic policies. The less they can "accomplish;" the more they can be distracted by the consequences of their own malfeasance, the better for our nation and our world. And if a scandal can get rid of a snake like Sessions, so much the better. Most of his appointments were the worst ever by a president of a "democratic" country; worst ever! There's a chance a better appointment will be made, if more of the alligators like Sessions have to resign. We saw that when McMasters replaced Flynn, and a slightly better pick for Labor Secretary.
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(03-02-2017, 06:49 PM)Odin Wrote: (03-02-2017, 04:47 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Amen. People are going batshit-insane. I've read about popular hysteria in books, but watching it happen in real-time with people I know is one of the stranger experiences of my life. It's like people believe this sort of thing doesn't have consequences.
No, you Trump supporters are the insane ones, the rest of us are horrified and outraged by your guys' willful disregard of anything that shows your Dear Leader and his handlers to be the traitors they are, to the point of calling deeply respected news sources "fake news".
*sniggers*
"Treason", is it? I recall MacCaskill meeting with the Russian ambassador, and tweeting about it. Meeting with foreign dignitaries is a fairly normal activity for national politicians, as it should be.
Which "deeply respected news sources" are you concerned about me deprecating? What constitutes a "deeply respected" outlet?
What exactly has gotten you in such a lather that you are sitting here baying for blood over Russia? Podesta's emails (it isn't like we weren't caught tapping Merkel and Roussef's cellphones), Crimea (no insurgency to date, and they declared independence with an eye towards granting Russian citizenship in 1992), Syria (aren't we bombing Syrian targets too? Didn't we help prop up the Bahraini government when their citizens rose up, including greenlighting a Saudi invasion?)? Or perhaps just the regular drumbeat of propaganda from the media?
Honestly, Odin, I thought better of you. 
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(03-02-2017, 09:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: "Treason", is it? I recall MacCaskill meeting with the Russian ambassador, and tweeting about it. Meeting with foreign dignitaries is a fairly normal activity for national politicians, as it should be.
I'm not so sure it's "normal" if such politician is also a campaign manager or advisor for a presidential candidate, and if it concerns what to do about sanctions against Russia for hacking our election-- which hacking benefits said politician and candidate in said election.
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by Ian Millhiser
Justice Editor, ThinkProgress. Author of Injustices: SCOTUS’ History of Comforting the Comfortable and Afflicting the Afflicted imillhiser@thinkprogress.org
Mar 1
https://thinkprogress.org/jeff-sessions-....qqv5lna7b
Jeff Sessions said that people who commit perjury must be removed from office
Life comes at you fast.
The Washington Post reported Wednesday night that Attorney General Jeff Sessions spoke to Russia’s ambassador twice last year, despite testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee that “I did not have communications with the Russians.”
Eighteen years ago, however, then-Sen. Sessions (R-AL) was called upon to judge a president who, he believed, had lied under oath. As political scientist Scott Lemieux notes, Sessions did not look kindly on President Bill Clinton during that president’s impeachment.
It now appears very likely that Sessions committed the very same crime he once voted to convict President Clinton of. The federal perjury statute forbids anyone who has “taken an oath before a competent tribunal, officer, or person” from “willfully and contrary to such oath” making a statement on “any material matter which he does not believe to be true.”
There is, to be fair, some wiggle room in this statute. To convict Sessions, for example, a prosecutor would have to prove that Sessions did not believe that his reportedly false statements about “the Russians” to be true. Thus, if Sessions had somehow forgotten about those meetings, that would provide him with a defense.
This is the sort of argument that Sessions’ defense attorneys could make on his behalf at trial. And Sessions, of course, should be afforded the same presumption of innocence that attaches to anyone accused of a crime.
Nevertheless, by Sessions’ own standard, if he committed perjury, then “equal justice requires that he forfeit his office.”
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(03-02-2017, 06:00 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Not necessarily. But one thing I learned early on as a teacher--mainly by substituting all over a big school district, as a way to hone a classroom management style prior to becoming a full-time teacher--is not to fight little battles. Writing up students for small infractions, like chewing gum in class, was not the way I wanted to invest my emotional and ethical "capital." I saved that for the big issues, like cheating and bullying. This kerfuffle with Jeff Sessions strikes me as just so much Democratic revanchism for whatever reason. Maybe the Democrats will succeed in getting a scalp by having Sessions resign. (I don't think he will.) And, personally, his recusing himself from any future investigation is sufficient penance...for now. Ask yourself this: Does our country really have the luxury of pursuing a long, expensive, and contentious investigation into the whole Trump/Russia connection? I don't think so.
My experience as a sub. I decide what I will tolerate and what I will not tolerate. I might not stop kids from talking, but I can draw the line on fighting words. I have a big peeve about students sitting on desks, which, if I did it, would suggest that I just won a share of the Super Duper Megabucks Lottery and am there only to announce to current co-workers that I am going to live like the owners of the company. get away with the taste of Donald Trump.
In reality I can deal with a minor lapse of behavior, and it is best that I do so. But "I will kill you" or "F--- you!" is good for a trip to the Principal's office. It's not for discussion in the classroom. Play smart-a$$ on me and you challenge my legitimate authority. I respect the kids and I expect reciprocation.
Quote:I say move on. This is not the battle Democrats want to fight, nor are they in a position of strength to successfully wage such a battle. If Trump and the GOP is going to be tripped up at all, let it be by virtue of their economic failings, not some low-grade ethical scandal. And by the way, I'm rooting for Trump to be successful (with some qualifications). There's simply too much at stake for all of us if he should fail. And that's coming from someone who opposed his candidacy every step of the way.
...Achieving high office with the aid of a foreign power is inexcusable. Winning may be a high objective, but ensuring that what one wins is a worthy quest is even more important. If as the football coach Vince Lombardi said "Winning isn't everything -- it's the only thing", even he had his limits. He didn't drug the opposing team's water supply or have the heat cut off to the other team's locker room. He may have had longer and more frequent practices. He may have had more say with the team on personnel choices. He may have gotten film footage of the opposing team's play in recent weeks.
It is important that we as Democrats stop any tolerance of office-seekers getting aid from foreign governments in winning office. The next time the Democratic nominee could be a left-wing populist who decides to get the aid of some other dictatorial regime -- let us say, the People's Republic of China.
Keep the prize worthy of the struggle, I say.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(03-02-2017, 05:52 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: NYT, Ellen Pao, radical rewrites, none of that rings a bell?
Yes, and over-zealous analysis in pursuit of an edgy story is bad journalism. My referenced story covered that too. The question: is this just a case of pushing the envelope or more a case of creating something out of whole cloth. Spinning is a lot less egregious than outright lying, and that seems to be the state of the alt-press ... to say nothing of social media news, which is not only unsourced but totally unhinged.
SomeGuy Wrote:I think a halfway competent lawyer could argue that that question was whether he had communications with the government in his capacity as a campaign surrogate, not in his day job as a member of the Senate Armed Forces committee.
But I'm not a lawyer either, so I will let them fight it out if that is the direction they choose to go with it.
This is politics, and he handed them a sledgehammer to beat him with, to misquote a poorly worded anecdote. FWIW, he gets the same consideration any other lawyer would get. He's expected to know the law in great detail, and this was an exercise in stupidity only matched by Bill Clinton's denial of carnal relations.
SomeGuy Wrote:What? The partisanship is stupid, on both sides, but that's not what I was talking about. I am more concerned with the popular hysteria, particularly in the political/media class, over Russia. A couple of cranks on an obscure message board is merely comical, the same beliefs among our senior political leadership and their mouthpieces in the press could lead to actual, no-bullshit Great Power war.
Which would be bad.
The intel community is united in their analysis. The Russians interfered in our election, and did so with some degree of success. Elections are underway in France, and both Italy and Germany are coming soon. What's the right answer if not to raise an alarm. In normal times, subtlety might work just fine, but these are far from normal times. I don't see the Russians pushing this to the point of open war with NATO, because they are already weak economically and don't need the massive drain a large war would entail.
That segments of our society are coming unglued has deeper roots than this. With a uniquely loose cannon at the top and the dispersed rumor mongering (see above), we're at risk. Is this worse than the Red Scare period of the 1950s? Arguable. We were war weary then and are again, but this time, we lack a huge base of veterans with direct experience of war. So yes, it's scary.
Still, are the PTB ready to start the draft, because that's going to be part of any large war. I don't see the Millennials going quietly to their doom, nor do I see parents investing their sons and daughters in a war, unless Russia invades an ally ... at a minimum. Putin sees a losing effort there, so we may be better off than we think.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(03-02-2017, 06:00 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: (03-02-2017, 05:33 PM)David Horn Wrote: Are you also arguing for turning the other check? The GOP has pretty long record of malfeasance here. Giving them a pass is a near certainty of more to come.
Not necessarily. But one thing I learned early on as a teacher--mainly by substituting all over a big school district, as a way to hone a classroom management style prior to becoming a full-time teacher--is not to fight little battles. Writing up students for small infractions, like chewing gum in class, was not the way I wanted to invest my emotional and ethical "capital." I saved that for the big issues, like cheating and bullying. This kerfuffle with Jeff Sessions strikes me as just so much Democratic revanchism for whatever reason. Maybe the Democrats will succeed in getting a scalp by having Sessions resign. (I don't think he will.) And, personally, his recusing himself from any future investigation is sufficient penance...for now. Ask yourself this: Does our country really have the luxury of pursuing a long, expensive, and contentious investigation into the whole Trump/Russia connection? I don't think so.
I say move on. This is not the battle Democrats want to fight, nor are they in a position of strength to successfully wage such a battle. If Trump and the GOP is going to be tripped up at all, let it be by virtue of their economic failings, not some low-grade ethical scandal. And by the way, I'm rooting for Trump to be successful (with some qualifications). There's simply too much at stake for all of us if he should fail. And that's coming from someone who opposed his candidacy every step of the way.
I have to disagree here. First, we have a major power interfering in our elections, and this Session issue is part of it on some level. We can't just ignore it. Second, it certainly far exceeds the standard the GOP applied when they endlessly investigated Hillary's email server. Trump's still pushing the "Lock her up" meme, and a strong counter here may finally kill that. Third, the Democrats can't act weak, even though they are at the moment. So was the GOP in 2009, and we know how that played the next year. Fourth, and most important, we have an administration that has run roughshod over the normal process. We've seen this movie before, and it doesn't end well.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(03-02-2017, 09:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: "Treason", is it? I recall MacCaskill meeting with the Russian ambassador, and tweeting about it. Meeting with foreign dignitaries is a fairly normal activity for national politicians, as it should be.
Sessions was asked under oath if he had any contact with the Russian government. If he was really talking to the Russian ambassador in the capacity of a senator rather than as a Trump surrogate he should have said that rather than perjuring himself and saying that he had no contact with the Russians. It indicates that he had communications with the ambassador he was trying to hide.
(03-02-2017, 09:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Which "deeply respected news sources" are you concerned about me deprecating? What constitutes a "deeply respected" outlet?
The New York Times? The Washington Post?
(03-02-2017, 09:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: What exactly has gotten you in such a lather that you are sitting here baying for blood over Russia? Podesta's emails (it isn't like we weren't caught tapping Merkel and Roussef's cellphones), Crimea (no insurgency to date, and they declared independence with an eye towards granting Russian citizenship in 1992), Syria (aren't we bombing Syrian targets too? Didn't we help prop up the Bahraini government when their citizens rose up, including greenlighting a Saudi invasion?)? Or perhaps just the regular drumbeat of propaganda from the media?
Oh look, whataboutism! It's becoming increasingly clear that Russia is promoting Fascist Alt-Right movements throughout the West, and that they are influencing the Trump administration.
(03-02-2017, 09:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Honestly, Odin, I thought better of you.
I thought better of Republicans and thought they would put country over party, but now it's clear that they'll sell us out to the Russians for an extra buck.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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Quote:Yes, and over-zealous analysis in pursuit of an edgy story is bad journalism. My referenced story covered that too. The question: is this just a case of pushing the envelope or more a case of creating something out of whole cloth. Spinning is a lot less egregious than outright lying, and that seems to be the state of the alt-press ... to say nothing of social media news, which is not only unsourced but totally unhinged.
Oh, so you do remember, then? I dunno, Dave, I can't help but feel that grossly distorted news stories in a "deeply respected" outlet have more potential for harm than a Facebook post about the pope endorsing Trump cooked up by some kid in Skopje.
Quote:This is politics, and he handed them a sledgehammer to beat him with, to misquote a poorly worded anecdote. FWIW, he gets the same consideration any other lawyer would get. He's expected to know the law in great detail, and this was an exercise in stupidity only matched by Bill Clinton's denial of carnal relations.
Sure, it was a stupid move. We'll see what comes of it. It's not really something I am interested in litigating (not being a lawyer and all).
Quote:The intel community is united in their analysis.
We've heard that one before.
Quote:The Russians interfered in our election, and did so with some degree of success.
By leaking Podesta's emails, or the DNC's? This is a casus belli now? I love how the approved phrasing continually implies that the Russians actually changed vote totals or something, rather than simply releasing embarrassing information (at least hypothetically). Weren't the Russians accused of this BEFORE the election? Were the voters somehow unaware of this?
Quote:What's the right answer if not to raise an alarm. In normal times, subtlety might work just fine, but these are far from normal times. I don't see the Russians pushing this to the point of open war with NATO, because they are already weak economically and don't need the massive drain a large war would entail.
That segments of our society are coming unglued has deeper roots than this. With a uniquely loose cannon at the top and the dispersed rumor mongering (see above), we're at risk. Is this worse than the Red Scare period of the 1950s? Arguable. We were war weary then and are again, but this time, we lack a huge base of veterans with direct experience of war. So yes, it's scary.
Still, are the PTB ready to start the draft, because that's going to be part of any large war. I don't see the Millennials going quietly to their doom, nor do I see parents investing their sons and daughters in a war, unless Russia invades an ally ... at a minimum. Putin sees a losing effort there, so we may be better off than we think.
One, this sort of thing has deeper roots than just the election. Two, your notion of how wars get started and escalated doesn't really hold water with me. I don't think most people in the government have a conscious plan for mobilizing a draft and invading Russia, or vice versa. I am more concerned with brinksmanship intended primarily for domestic consumption getting out of hand, of each side's fundamental misunderstanding of what the other side's red lines actually are. Once the ball gets rolling, these things can have a logic all of their own.
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Quote:Sessions was asked under oath if he had any contact with the Russian government. If he was really talking to the Russian ambassador in the capacity of a senator rather than as a Trump surrogate he should have said that rather than perjuring himself and saying that he had no contact with the Russians. It indicates that he had communications with the ambassador he was trying to hide.
It could indicate that. It could indicate that he was speaking of meetings in his capacity as a campaign surrogate, which is what I believe he's claiming now. Maybe it simply slipped his mind. Or maybe he is concealing something.
We will see, since the Democrats are looking to make hay over the issue. Still, "treason" is a bit of a leap at this point.
Quote:The New York Times? The Washington Post?
Liberal rags. I read the NYT everyday for over 15 years, and I lost respect for it a while ago. I raised simply one sample issue with it with Dave in the other thread.
Quote:Oh look, whataboutism!
Oh look, hypocrisy! You didn't answer the question. What has seriously gotten you to the point where Putin is "like, LITERALLY HITLER" and you are claiming war has already begun?
Quote:It's becoming increasingly clear that Russia is promoting Fascist Alt-Right movements throughout the West, and that they are influencing the Trump administration.
A Fascist Internationale? Who are you, Charles Stross? 
Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe (for, you know, let's consider alternatives to nuclear war values of the same), the rise of alt-right and (in places that had far-right regimes in living memory) alt-left parties here and abroad is in response to popular dissatisfaction with the existing options, and is not simply a Russian plot?
It's amazing to me watching a Brown Scare pick up steam.
Quote:I thought better of Republicans and thought they would put country over party, but now it's clear that they'll sell us out to the Russians for an extra buck.
THE RUSSIANS R COMING!! RUN!!
But still, join the club. I still have trouble believing what the Left has turned into, too.
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(03-02-2017, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: ... Sure, we don't want Trump to make a mistake that gets the nation into a war or another great depression. But this kind of scandal is just what needs to happen, to expose the Drump team as the liars and cheaters that they are. The more trouble they are in, the less damage they can do by enacting their "economic failings," meaning all of their wrong economic policies. The less they can "accomplish;" the more they can be distracted by the consequences of their own malfeasance, the better for our nation and our world. And if a scandal can get rid of a snake like Sessions, so much the better. Most of his appointments were the worst ever by a president of a "democratic" country; worst ever! There's a chance a better appointment will be made, if more of the alligators like Sessions have to resign. We saw that when McMasters replaced Flynn, and a slightly better pick for Labor Secretary.
Chaos is not a productive policy, but it may be better than whatever it is that Trump has in mind ... if he actually has something in mind. His actions and his words have very little to do with one another, and even his actions tend to march off in different directions.
The Brits use the term shambolic. I'll go with that. 
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(03-03-2017, 10:37 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: David Horn Wrote:The Russians interfered in our election, and did so with some degree of success.
By leaking Podesta's emails, or the DNC's? This is a casus belli now? I love how the approved phrasing continually implies that the Russians actually changed vote totals or something, rather than simply releasing embarrassing information (at least hypothetically). Weren't the Russians accused of this BEFORE the election? Were the voters somehow unaware of this?
They didn't have to change anything other than a few minds. The easiest change: get marginal voters disgusted so they stay home. I think that was their target, but they actually got more bang than they expected.
This is just modern PSYOPS. Why be surprised?
SomeGuy Wrote:David Horn Wrote:What's the right answer if not to raise an alarm. In normal times, subtlety might work just fine, but these are far from normal times. I don't see the Russians pushing this to the point of open war with NATO, because they are already weak economically and don't need the massive drain a large war would entail.
That segments of our society are coming unglued has deeper roots than this. With a uniquely loose cannon at the top and the dispersed rumor mongering (see above), we're at risk. Is this worse than the Red Scare period of the 1950s? Arguable. We were war weary then and are again, but this time, we lack a huge base of veterans with direct experience of war. So yes, it's scary.
Still, are the PTB ready to start the draft, because that's going to be part of any large war. I don't see the Millennials going quietly to their doom, nor do I see parents investing their sons and daughters in a war, unless Russia invades an ally ... at a minimum. Putin sees a losing effort there, so we may be better off than we think.
One, this sort of thing has deeper roots than just the election. Two, your notion of how wars get started and escalated doesn't really hold water with me. I don't think most people in the government have a conscious plan for mobilizing a draft and invading Russia, or vice versa. I am more concerned with brinksmanship intended primarily for domestic consumption getting out of hand, of each side's fundamental misunderstanding of what the other side's red lines actually are. Once the ball gets rolling, these things can have a logic all of their own.
FDR wanted the US in WW-II, but it took a direct attack at Pearl Harbor to actually turn the public in favor of war. War with Russia is at least as serious as that, considering the nuclear status of both countries. More to the point, the Russians are not about to throw enough weight around in the West that the Chinese start seeing the East as ripe fruit for the picking.
So to your point that rabblerousing radicals in the US can actually overcome natural resistance and stoke the fires of war: I don't see it. Picking a fight with a weak opponent just to beat our national chest is about as far as we are likely to go. After Iraq and Afghanistan, even that seems a remote possibility, John McCain to the contrary.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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Quote:They didn't have to change anything other than a few minds. The easiest change: get marginal voters disgusted so they stay home. I think that was their target, but they actually got more bang than they expected.
Speculative, and beside the point. It isn't what I asked you.
Quote:This is just modern PSYOPS.
One, the technical name for that now is MISO. Two, before they changed it to MISO, it was PSYOP, with no goddamn "S". PSYchological OPerations.
Sorry, I was PSYOP for a couple of years, pet peeve. It's like "deeply respected" outlets reporting the regimental affiliation of units when embedded with them in Iraq or Afghanistan, as if that meant anything to anybody not in that particular brigade.
Quote:FDR wanted the US in WW-II, but it took a direct attack at Pearl Harbor to actually turn the public in favor of war. War with Russia is at least as serious as that, considering the nuclear status of both countries. More to the point, the Russians are not about to throw enough weight around in the West that the Chinese start seeing the East as ripe fruit for the picking.
For an alternate perspective, look at WWI. An excess of sabre-rattling, bombastic statements for political consumption (both at home and abroad) , and belief that any war would necessarily be limited in scope and duration turned into a conflagration that shattered the Continent. Look at the role of the "yellow press" in backing us into the Spanish-American War. Look at the spiral of rhetoric involved in the lead-up to the Civil War. Neither side was seriously expecting a multi-year total war.
WWII is not the be-all, end-all of historical references.
Quote:So to your point that rabblerousing radicals in the US can actually overcome natural resistance and stoke the fires of war: I don't see it. Picking a fight with a weak opponent just to beat our national chest is about as far as we are likely to go. After Iraq and Afghanistan, even that seems a remote possibility, John McCain to the contrary.
*yawn*
My Dad thought that the lead-up to the Iraq War was just sabre-rattling, too. So did Saddam (whose mustache and haircut was very similar to my Dad's. Coincidence?)
With Hillary (whose relevance, I know, is much diminished) or any traditional Republican candidate, my concern was less a premediated Operation Barbarossa 2.0 than it was arming the Ukrainians, trying to impose a no-fly zone over Syria, or some other limited step with the possibility of killing Russians troops and sparking a response, which sparks a countervailing response on our end, and so on and so forth.
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I have previously cited Harrison Koehli's blog posts ( Sott.net, Signs of the Times) as they relate to The Fourth Turning:
Here again are the links to his Part 1 and Part 2 posts if you didn't catch them the first time around:
The Fourth Turning and Steve Bannon Pt. 1: Why He's Wrong, Even Though He's Right
The Fourth Turning and Steve Bannon Pt. 2: Happiness, Hedonism, Horror - Repeat
I especially enjoyed his rambling discussion in Part 3, particularly his insights into the "anti-Russia" and "Trump as Hitler" memes:
The Fourth Turning and Steve Bannon Pt. 3: Implications for Hysterica-America
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"Schwartz" is black. "Meer" is sea.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Obama Administration Rushed to Preserve Intelligence of Russian Election Hacking
WASHINGTON — In the Obama administration’s last days, some White House officials scrambled to spread information about Russian efforts to undermine the presidential election — and about possible contacts between associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump and Russians — across the government. Former American officials say they had two aims: to ensure that such meddling isn’t duplicated in future American or European elections, and to leave a clear trail of intelligence for government investigators.
American allies, including the British and the Dutch, had provided information describing meetings in European cities between Russian officials — and others close to Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin — and associates of President-elect Trump, according to three former American officials who requested anonymity in discussing classified intelligence.
Separately, American intelligence agencies had intercepted communications of Russian officials, some of them within the Kremlin, discussing contacts with Trump associates.
The disclosures about the contacts came as new questions were raised about Attorney General Jeff Sessions’s ties to the Russians. According to a former senior American official, he met with the Russian ambassador, Sergey I. Kislyak, twice in the past year. The details of the meetings were not clear, but the contact appeared to contradict testimony Mr. Sessions provided Congress during his confirmation hearing in January when he said he “did not have communications with the Russians.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/us/po...front&_r=0
It's from the 'failing' New York Times, so as our President says, it's Fake News.
Sure. And i can expect a bite from a rattlesnake to have no ill consequences.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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