If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory

[Galen]

(03-12-2017, 03:39 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-11-2017, 10:49 PM)Galen Wrote: This is a crucial point that Odin misses because he is also clueless about history in general and Russian history in particular.  Probably doesn't know what the Great Patriotic War was and understanding that would probably enlighten him as to why poking Russia with a stick is a really bad idea.

Well what is interesting is that, at least traditionally, the term Patriotic in the Russian language meant that they were fighting for the soil that was occupied by their fathers.  The word comes directly to them from the Latin Pater.  The concept of a flag waving idiot (a common western notion as to what a patriot is) is relatively new to them.

I suspect they understand the concept of a flag waiving idiot but probably have trouble taking the whole notion seriously.  An attitude that I have considerable sympathy for.  It also means they are far more focused on territorial integrity than the west and this confuses most people from the west.

[Galen]

(03-12-2017, 03:39 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-11-2017, 10:56 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-11-2017, 12:15 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: <snip> long post</snip>

You left out the part where according to the Vault 7 material that was just released it is very possible that the CIA did some hacking and made it look like Russia did it.  Deliberately and directly trying to rig an election is just the sort of thing that has too little upside and too much downside for Putin.  Culturally Russians tend not to risk what they already have on the geopolitical stage.  Its not is if the US hasn't done false flag operations in the past, Gulf of Tonkin comes to mind.

So far we have come out ahead with the rather odd outcome of most ranking Democrats looking like characters out of Dr. Strangelove.

I've not gone over much of the vault 7 material myself.  But I wouldn't put false flag operations past the Deep State.  They've done it before.  But the risk reward for the Russians even if they had been involved in the election past the usual both candidates send a proxy to talk to the Ambassador and Consuls is such that there would be a lot at stake and very little for them to gain.

Historically the Russians typically don't gamble on the world stage.  I doubt Putin is an exception to that rule--for all his faults he really is a very conventional ruler for Russia as is Medvedev who is essentially his Right hand.

It is strange that you bring up James Bond films.  Putin himself has used similar imagery but when he does it it comes off as cool rather than crazy like the Democrats have managed.





But I have a clear bias being a long time Russophile.

That video was interesting and doesn't really surprise me a whole lot.  By Russia's usual standards Putin is positively benign.  Your assessment of his foreign policy is essentially correct.  The only reason they are supporting Syria militarily now is because they see it as a survival issue.

Dr. Strangelove is not a Bond film but even after all these years it holds up rather well.  Here is a sample since I don't think that you have seen it which is clear from your identification of it as a Bond film.





I am not Russophile but there is no good reason to start a war with them either if only because there is no way that ends well for anyone.

[Kinser79]

(03-12-2017, 04:20 AM)Galen Wrote: I suspect they understand the concept of a flag waiving idiot but probably have trouble taking the whole notion seriously.  An attitude that I have considerable sympathy for.  It also means they are far more focused on territorial integrity than the west and this confuses most people from the west.

Oh indeed. Much like the issue with Crimea confuses most westerners (well those who haven't bothered to study Russian history at all). The Crimea has been part of Russian Territory since the mid-18th century and is largely populated by ethnic Russians with a smattering of ethnic Germans and Tatars for flavor. It also used to have Jews but Hitler took care of that.

The idea that Crimea should be administered by Ukraine instead was started in the 1960s with Khrushchev, and in the Soviet context made sense--Kiev is closer to Odessa than Moscow is and the USSR was a federation. Outside of that particular context though, the idea that Crimea should be long to a state other than Russia (and for all intents and purposes they view Ukraine the same way we'd view Texas--yeah they might be their own 'country but they really aren't') is as repugnant to them as say turning over South Florida to Cuba would be. In fact more so--at least South Florida is dominated by Ethnic Cubans.

[Galen]

(03-12-2017, 04:33 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-12-2017, 04:20 AM)Galen Wrote: I suspect they understand the concept of a flag waiving idiot but probably have trouble taking the whole notion seriously.  An attitude that I have considerable sympathy for.  It also means they are far more focused on territorial integrity than the west and this confuses most people from the west.

Oh indeed.  Much like the issue with Crimea confuses most westerners (well those who haven't bothered to study Russian history at all).  The Crimea has been part of Russian Territory since the mid-18th century and is largely populated by ethnic Russians with a smattering of ethnic Germans and Tatars for flavor.  It also used to have Jews but Hitler took care of that.

The idea that Crimea should be administered by Ukraine instead was started in the 1960s with Khrushchev, and in the Soviet context made sense--Kiev is closer to Odessa than Moscow is and the USSR was a federation.  Outside of that particular context though, the idea that Crimea should be long to a state other than Russia (and for all intents and purposes they view Ukraine the same way we'd view Texas--yeah they might be their own 'country but they really aren't') is as repugnant to them as say turning over South Florida to Cuba would be.  In fact more so--at least South Florida is dominated by Ethnic Cubans.

This sums up why I have always said that Putin's response to the Ukraine crisis was in fact remarkably mild.

[pbrower2a]

The Cubans about whom you speak would probably seek to annex Cuba to 'their' part of Florida.

[Kinser79]

(03-12-2017, 07:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Cubans about whom you speak would probably seek to annex Cuba to 'their' part of Florida.

In reality, most likely but it didn't fit the model we were discussing.  That being said the Cubans would be grateful.  After 50+ years of the Castros they'd love being free again.  Hell they might even be able to fix up their houses and what not, which they could maybe one day own.

[Kinser79]

Quote:Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said in an interview Sunday that the Russian ambassador who met with Trump campaign officials also met with “people working in think tanks advising Hillary or advising people working for Hillary.”

I think I'll leave the link here.  Should Cause Alphabet Soup's and Odin's heads to explode.


http://thehill.com/policy/international/...to-clinton

[Galen]

(03-12-2017, 08:47 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

Quote:Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said in an interview Sunday that the Russian ambassador who met with Trump campaign officials also met with “people working in think tanks advising Hillary or advising people working for Hillary.”

I think I'll leave the link here.  Should Cause Alphabet Soup's and Odin's heads to explode.


http://thehill.com/policy/international/...to-clinton

Hardly a surprise to me.  Putin would naturally try to for a relationship with anyone likely to become president.  Only an idiot would assume that any nation wouldn't do this.

[Kinser79]

(03-12-2017, 11:07 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-12-2017, 08:47 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

Quote:Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said in an interview Sunday that the Russian ambassador who met with Trump campaign officials also met with “people working in think tanks advising Hillary or advising people working for Hillary.”

I think I'll leave the link here.  Should Cause Alphabet Soup's and Odin's heads to explode.


http://thehill.com/policy/international/...to-clinton

Hardly a surprise to me.  Putin would naturally try to for a relationship with anyone likely to become president.  Only an idiot would assume that any nation wouldn't do this.

I would be more concerned if presidential candidates did not send campaign officials or vist themselves foreign diplomats.  Foreign policy is an executive prerogative and as such the responsibility of the President.  I would imagine someone applying for the job would at least know who the most important ambassadors are and invited them over for tea and sandwiches at the very least.

[Galen]

(03-13-2017, 10:56 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-12-2017, 11:07 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-12-2017, 08:47 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

Quote:Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said in an interview Sunday that the Russian ambassador who met with Trump campaign officials also met with “people working in think tanks advising Hillary or advising people working for Hillary.”

I think I'll leave the link here.  Should Cause Alphabet Soup's and Odin's heads to explode.


http://thehill.com/policy/international/...to-clinton

Hardly a surprise to me.  Putin would naturally try to for a relationship with anyone likely to become president.  Only an idiot would assume that any nation wouldn't do this.

I would be more concerned if presidential candidates did not send campaign officials or vist themselves foreign diplomats.  Foreign policy is an executive prerogative and as such the responsibility of the President.  I would imagine someone applying for the job would at least know who the most important ambassadors are and invited them over for tea and sandwiches at the very least.

Not exclusively an executive function but given how Congress has abdicated much of its responsibilities in the the century this is certainly true.  I would be more worried if a President-Elect and his appointees did not talk to foreign diplomats since the outgoing President is pretty much a non-entity at that point.  Which is what the Dims are currently whining about with respect to Russia.

[Kinser79]

The "Dims" I like that. Seems like that party is filled with lots of dim people these days.

Indeed, I would say that Congress started abdicating its responsibilities sometime around the passage of the 17th amendment. With Senators being subject to the vicissitudes of popular election specialization in the legislative branch of those capable in foreign affairs (among other issues) has diminished.

Typically in democratic republics elected officials are neither brilliant nor terrible...they are mostly mediocre.

[SomeGuy]

Sure, let's get back on topic:

A Soft Coup, or Preserving Our Democracy?

[Kinser79]

Soft coup....it isn't working though.

I find the two fake news sites posted by Alphabet to be of little interest.

Also it is unlikely that the Russians will attack the Baltic states. For what? for them to drain the Russian Treasury? To cause a thermonuclear war?

Putin may be many things but stupid is not one of them.

[Galen]

(03-13-2017, 04:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: The "Dims" I like that.  Seems like that party is filled with lots of dim people these days.  

Indeed, I would say that Congress started abdicating its responsibilities sometime around the passage of the 17th amendment.  With Senators being subject to the vicissitudes of popular election specialization in the legislative branch of those capable in foreign affairs (among other issues) has diminished.

Typically in democratic republics elected officials are neither brilliant nor terrible...they are mostly mediocre.

The Senate before the Seventeenth Amendment in a very real sense were representatives of the state governments.  In a very real sense they were ambassadors of the several states and could be directed to vote by their particular state government.  In this way the sovereignty of the individual states was guarded with the side benefit of leaving us with a smaller federal government.  Only idiot progressives and modern liberals would think that disabling such a key check on the federal government would be a good idea.

[Kinser79]

(03-14-2017, 03:41 AM)Galen Wrote:

(03-13-2017, 04:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: The "Dims" I like that.  Seems like that party is filled with lots of dim people these days.  

Indeed, I would say that Congress started abdicating its responsibilities sometime around the passage of the 17th amendment.  With Senators being subject to the vicissitudes of popular election specialization in the legislative branch of those capable in foreign affairs (among other issues) has diminished.

Typically in democratic republics elected officials are neither brilliant nor terrible...they are mostly mediocre.

The Senate before the Seventeenth Amendment in a very real sense were representatives of the state governments.  In a very real sense they were ambassadors of the several states and could be directed to vote by their particular state government.  In this way the sovereignty of the individual states was guarded with the side benefit of leaving us with a smaller federal government.  Only idiot progressives and modern liberals would think that disabling such a key check on the federal government would be a good idea.

Any check on federal power is a good thing.  I believe the 17th amendment was sold as expanding democracy, but the net result was that over time more and more mediocre people got elected as senator, rather than the state governments seeking people who could and would actively seek out their interests.

The net result being that democracy is diminished as incapable people replace the capable.  Perhaps mediocre for a Senator merely means smart enough to know how mediocre he is and thus a push to abdicate responsibilities to the Excecutive and worse the bureaucracy became the order of the day.

[Galen]

(03-14-2017, 12:58 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: Soft coup....it isn't working though.

I find the two fake news sites posted by Alphabet to be of little interest.

Also it is unlikely that the Russians will attack the Baltic states.  For what? for them to drain the Russian Treasury?  To cause a thermonuclear war?

Putin may be many things but stupid is not one of them.

I suggest that you watch Putin here.  Pay attention to the body language and demeanor.





This a man trying to avoid war but accepting the fact the western governments, US in particular want war.  Not a good sign but most of the idiots here will fail to understand why.

[Eric the Green]

Ukranian businessman with links to Donald Trump and Russia dies in unexplained circumstances

Alex Oronov, who had family ties to President's lawyer, reportedly organised meeting aimed at helping give Russian President control of Crimea

Rachel Roberts Monday 6 March 2017 08:58 GMT122 comments
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...12866.html


Mr Trump's links with Russia have caused a great deal of controversy

A Ukranian-born millionaire businessman with links to Donald Trump has reportedly died in unexplained circumstances.

Alex Oronov, a 69-year-old naturalised American citizen who ran an agricultural business in his native Ukraine, died on 2 March, according to a Facebook post by Ukranian politician Andrii Artemenko.

Mr Oronov is reported to have set up a secret meeting between Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen – to whom he had family ties - and Russian officials where a “peace plan” is said to have been hatched to give Russian President Vladimir Putin control of the Crimea.

Mr Cohen is understood to have an extensive network of personal and business relationships in the Ukranian-American community – and his associates included Mr Oronov, a partner in the ethanol business the lawyer’s brother, Bryan, set up in Ukraine.

The “peace plan” meeting brought together Mr Artemenko, Mr Cohen and Felix Sater, an American-Russian long-time business associate of Mr Trump who is reported to have ties to the Russian mafia.

Details of this meeting are believed to have ended up on the desk of Michael Flynn, Mr Trump’s former security adviser who was forced to resign last month over his alleged secret dealings with Russian officials.

The New York Times – which Mr Trump has repeatedly accused of producing “fake news” - reported the meeting between Mr Artemenko, Mr Cohen and Mr Slater.

In his lengthy Facebook post, Mr Artemenko describes himself as a pawn in a diplomatic game and said the stress created by the article and the negative attention that followed the article was too much for Mr Oronov.

The post, written in Russian, translates loosely: “Yes, I’m guilty... Alex Oronov, my partner, my friend, my mentor, Alex was a family member of Michael Cohen. And he organised all kinds of stuff, including an introduction and a meeting for me with Michael Cohen.”

It adds: “Unfortunately, his heart could not endure it. He died... Friend, your death will not have been in vain, nor will the deaths of tens of thousands of Ukranians and Russians, Alex Oronov, during this wild, undeclared war! Rest in peace and forgive me if you can, as difficult as that may be!”

The Ukrainian MP points the finger of blame at “overexertion, the nerves, from injustice, from suspicion, from sorrow of misunderstanding”.

The remembrance website legacy.com has a listing for Alex Oronov of New York, with dates that match those of the businessman.

One friend and business associate has so far left a tribute on the site, which reads: “Alex had a huge heart and he did a lot for those who were part of his family and part of his company.”

Conspiracy theorists have pointed to a number of recent deaths of Russian diplomats in the past four months.

Russia’s permanent ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, died last month in New York after suddenly becoming ill on his way to work the day before his 65th birthday.

It was initially reported he had suffered a heart attack but an autopsy proved inconclusive.

The Russian Consul in Athens, Andrei Malanin, 55, was found dead on the floor of his apartment in Greece in January. Greek police said there was no evidence of a break-in and he was believed to have died of natural causes.

Russia’s Ambassador to India, Alexander Kadakin, 67, was reported to have died of heart failure in January after a “brief illness” according to Indian media.

Russian diplomat Sergei Krivov, 63, was found unconscious having suffered severe head injuries at the Russian consulate in New York on US election day.

According to BuzzFeed, Mr Krivov was initially said to have fallen to his death following a suspected heart attack, but a subsequent report from medical examiners was inconclusive.

Mr Krivov is believed to have been responsible for the security of the consul from American intelligence, although he was initially said to have been “a security guard”.


Senior Russian diplomat shot dead in flat in Moscow

The Russian ambassador to Turkey, Andrei Karlov, was assassinated in Ankara by a policeman at a photography exhibition on 19 December and another diplomat, Peter Polshikov, was shot dead in his Moscow apartment on the same day.

Former KGB chief Oleg Erovinkin, who was suspected of helping British spy Christopher Steele draft a dossier on Donald Trump, was found dead in the back of his car last Boxing Day.

Mr Erovinkin was also an aide to former deputy prime minister Igor Sechin, who now heads up state-owned oil company Rosneft and is said to have been named in the dossier.

His death was initially reported as a suspected murder – but officials later claimed he had died of a heart attack.

[Odin]

Jonathan Chait: What We Already Know About Trump’s Ties to Russia Amounts to Treachery to the Republic

[Kinser79]

(03-14-2017, 11:56 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Ukranian businessman with links to Donald Trump and Russia dies in unexplained circumstances

Alex Oronov, who had family ties to President's lawyer, reportedly organised meeting aimed at helping give Russian President control of Crimea

Rachel Roberts Monday 6 March 2017 08:58 GMT122 comments
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...12866.html


Mr Trump's links with Russia have caused a great deal of controversy

A Ukranian-born millionaire businessman with links to Donald Trump has reportedly died in unexplained circumstances.

Alex Oronov, a 69-year-old naturalised American citizen who ran an agricultural business in his native Ukraine, died on 2 March, according to a Facebook post by Ukranian politician Andrii Artemenko.

Mr Oronov is reported to have set up a secret meeting between Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen – to whom he had family ties - and Russian officials where a “peace plan” is said to have been hatched to give Russian President Vladimir Putin control of the Crimea.

Mr Cohen is understood to have an extensive network of personal and business relationships in the Ukranian-American community – and his associates included Mr Oronov, a partner in the ethanol business the lawyer’s brother, Bryan, set up in Ukraine.

The “peace plan” meeting brought together Mr Artemenko, Mr Cohen and Felix Sater, an American-Russian long-time business associate of Mr Trump who is reported to have ties to the Russian mafia.

Details of this meeting are believed to have ended up on the desk of Michael Flynn, Mr Trump’s former security adviser who was forced to resign last month over his alleged secret dealings with Russian officials.

The New York Times – which Mr Trump has repeatedly accused of producing “fake news” - reported the meeting between Mr Artemenko, Mr Cohen and Mr Slater.

In his lengthy Facebook post, Mr Artemenko describes himself as a pawn in a diplomatic game and said the stress created by the article and the negative attention that followed the article was too much for Mr Oronov.

The post, written in Russian, translates loosely: “Yes, I’m guilty... Alex Oronov, my partner, my friend, my mentor, Alex was a family member of Michael Cohen. And he organised all kinds of stuff, including an introduction and a meeting for me with Michael Cohen.”

It adds: “Unfortunately, his heart could not endure it. He died... Friend, your death will not have been in vain, nor will the deaths of tens of thousands of Ukranians and Russians, Alex Oronov, during this wild, undeclared war! Rest in peace and forgive me if you can, as difficult as that may be!”

The Ukrainian MP points the finger of blame at “overexertion, the nerves, from injustice, from suspicion, from sorrow of misunderstanding”.

The remembrance website legacy.com has a listing for Alex Oronov of New York, with dates that match those of the businessman.

One friend and business associate has so far left a tribute on the site, which reads: “Alex had a huge heart and he did a lot for those who were part of his family and part of his company.”

Conspiracy theorists have pointed to a number of recent deaths of Russian diplomats in the past four months.

Russia’s permanent ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, died last month in New York after suddenly becoming ill on his way to work the day before his 65th birthday.

It was initially reported he had suffered a heart attack but an autopsy proved inconclusive.

The Russian Consul in Athens, Andrei Malanin, 55, was found dead on the floor of his apartment in Greece in January. Greek police said there was no evidence of a break-in and he was believed to have died of natural causes.

Russia’s Ambassador to India, Alexander Kadakin, 67, was reported to have died of heart failure in January after a “brief illness” according to Indian media.

Russian diplomat Sergei Krivov, 63, was found unconscious having suffered severe head injuries at the Russian consulate in New York on US election day.

According to BuzzFeed, Mr Krivov was initially said to have fallen to his death following a suspected heart attack, but a subsequent report from medical examiners was inconclusive.

Mr Krivov is believed to have been responsible for the security of the consul from American intelligence, although he was initially said to have been “a security guard”.


Senior Russian diplomat shot dead in flat in Moscow

The Russian ambassador to Turkey, Andrei Karlov, was assassinated in Ankara by a policeman at a photography exhibition on 19 December and another diplomat, Peter Polshikov, was shot dead in his Moscow apartment on the same day.

Former KGB chief Oleg Erovinkin, who was suspected of helping British spy Christopher Steele draft a dossier on Donald Trump, was found dead in the back of his car last Boxing Day.  

Mr Erovinkin was also an aide to former deputy prime minister Igor Sechin, who now heads up state-owned oil company Rosneft and is said to have been named in the dossier.

His death was initially reported as a suspected murder – but officials later claimed he had died of a heart attack.

So a 69 year old man died.  This isn't fake news, it is non news.  Nothing "mysterious" here old fuckers die all the time.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-14-2017, 07:12 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: An interesting, non-partisan, and open minded perspective:

http://www.michaeldsellers.com/blog/2017...ew-normal/

'Does Trump even favor the perpetuation of that “American led liberal democratic world order” that we have been working to build since WWII — or is he against it? His “America first” populism, his denigration of NATO and the UN, all of this suggests that he’s not really in favor it. But is this a truly carefully thought out position? Does he understand what will be lost if we let this slip away? Is it a position that Americans who voted for Trump truly want? Trump framed it as “America first” but what if that means abandoning the post WWII global structure in which America is first among a functioning coalition of western democracies? Is Trump ready to jettison that entire structure in favor if … what?'

#RagsNationalism

Uh, when will this guy give an equal hearing to the PTB that are fucking things up already?

1. Corporate America
a. Exports jobs
b. pays pissant wages
c. treats employees like slaves.  You got that fucking Amazon, yes you.   Fuck you Amazon!
2. The MIC
a. Why are you spying on us Americans.  That is not your fucking job.
b. Your budget needs to be .25 of what is is now.  We need healthcare, infrastructure spending, and basic research
c. I don't think you need 100 bases strewn to the 4 winds.  Empire sux.
3. US oligopolies.
a. Big Phama:  I can't buy cheap drugs overseas because y'all bribed The Feds.
b. Big Oil:  I'm tired of spending my money to protect your stuff. We need an oil import fee charged on each barrel of imported oil to pay for that and make the real costs of your shit match that of domestic production/green energy
c. Big Insurance.  .... Just fucking die, already.  A bunch of useless paper shufflers y'all are.
4. Big Tech:  <-  I think Putin's bribing y'all.  Just look at all of those IOT/Ishits that are so easy, basement dwellers can hack 'em.

Like this:  http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2...racked-use