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02-28-2019, 04:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-28-2019, 04:11 PM by Eric the Green.)
(02-28-2019, 10:21 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (02-27-2019, 11:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: (02-26-2019, 04:11 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: The Missionary Awakening followed the Civil War and the Gilded Age. As I understand it, that 2T included a particularly strong emphasis on worldly affairs; and did not explore or trail blaze the spiritual to anywhere near the level as the Transcendental Awakening.
The Missionary Awakening wasn't entirely dead spiritually-the Missionaries were associated with traditional religion.
Your last sentence makes a good point. The Missionaries DID focus on religion, but they defined as "doing good deeds" rather than "having an abiding faith". They are the two poles of the religious life that pull at one another, with the "faith" group fully in command today. Personally, I'll take the Salvation Army over the Southern Baptist Convention any day. Simply believing is no justification for otherwise bad behavior, but the faith-community assumes it's the one and only ticket to heaven. They're wrong!
Would this be a difference between Dionysian and Apollonian prophets? Missionaries were Apollonian and focused on ethics/morality. Transcendentals and Boomers were Dionysian and focused on having a relationship with God.
Also, back to the OP: I think the culture wars are resolved. Homosexuality and marijuana are now widely accepted all over the Anglosphere, while hard drugs are now fortunately out of fashion. The sex-positive movement has mostly died out, feminists are now firmly against porn and prostitution, and their arguments are sometimes similar to the old Christian Right. Millennials generally don't tolerate cheating on your husband or wife, although they delay marriage to give themselves time for some sexual self-discovery. Weird Satanic and Hindu-inspired cults of the last 3T are also mostly gone.
The current clash of ideologies is tribalism vs cosmopolitanism rather than Rajneesh vs Jesus.
You make some good points there. The culture wars seem to have been resolved for now in favor of some social taboos having fallen, but repression and old-fashioned morality having returned as well.
The sexual revolution will definitely return too in the next 2T, and it will be quite strong and freewheeling. Sex is something else that Americans like to suppress, traditionally, but it can't be done for long; it comes back. That doesn't necessarily mean a boom in porn and prostitution; that was not a big Awakening trend last time; it was mostly left over from the 1T or the previous 3T, and feminists have never been in favor of porn. The legalization of prostitution never got very far as a movement in the 2T, so it may not again next time. How weird the cults will be next time seems unclear to me. The next Awakening will be less drastic in its sexual and other mis-behavior, because this will not seem so attractive, considering how repressed society had been last time. I see a more peaceful and constructive approach.
The me-too movement will go away by then, but perhaps after having done its job of restraining old-fashioned male domination. In real sexual liberation, such mis-behavior is not necessary. So perhaps we can hope that in this pendulum swing, moral and cultural progress is happening.
As for the current clash of ideologies, although the immigration bashing during Trump's era does arouse tribalism and a cosmopolitan counter-movement, and globalization has been an issue because of free trade causing industrial decline and drug use, the key divide in this country remains the neo-liberal economics vs. neo or watered-down socialism, and racism (which also stokes anti-immigration) plays its role in this issue between the red and blue states.
Classic Xer is illustrative here among posters here; the key issue remains whether people are willing to support taxes for government programs for poor and ethnic folks, or whether they are viewed as dependent freeloaders whom people who "work" are being "forced at gunpoint" to pay for in order to provide them with "free stuff." That is the key red/blue divide, along with the gun issue, which the reds feel guarantees their freedom, and the blues know that guns bring on tyranny and death. Along with this is the issue of the use of guns by police, whose frequent fear-based, gross mis-behavior is aroused by both racism and the prevalence of guns. And reaction to climate science is also based on neo-liberalism, because the deniers are afraid that government action on this will bring more "control" and more "taxes." Conspiracy theories also cloud thinking today across the ideological spectrum; the irrational has expanded during this 4T.
The culture war remains in the background. It may be mostly over for now, as the 3T has ended, but party identification by religion remains, and the fundies are Trump's and the GOP's biggest supporters. Abortion remains a hot issue, and opinions on all the other issues remains conservative among many people in the red states.
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(02-28-2019, 10:21 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Also, back to the OP: I think the culture wars are resolved. Homosexuality and marijuana are now widely accepted all over the Anglosphere, while hard drugs are now fortunately out of fashion. The sex-positive movement has mostly died out, feminists are now firmly against porn and prostitution, and their arguments are sometimes similar to the old Christian Right. Millennials generally don't tolerate cheating on your husband or wife, although they delay marriage to give themselves time for some sexual self-discovery. Weird Satanic and Hindu-inspired cults of the last 3T are also mostly gone.
The current clash of ideologies is tribalism vs cosmopolitanism rather than Rajneesh vs Jesus.
We'll have to see if their fascination with autocrats leads to a backlash against the religious right and other groups currently backing these dictators-in-waiting. I think that will tell us a lot more than shifts in the culture, that has been all over the board in the last few decades. AGW may be a stronger driver than anything the culture merchants might employ. The potential for disaster tends to focus the mind.
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Culture Wars? Always remember, "War doesn't decide who is right, war only decides who is left." If the nazis had won WW2, people would have to believe that a mix of hypernationalism, Nordic paganism, and führer kult were "right".
Oh, and @Eric: "feminists have never been in favor of porn"? Google "sex-positive feminists" - if you dare.
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(03-01-2019, 08:28 PM)Hintergrund Wrote: Culture Wars? Always remember, "War doesn't decide who is right, war only decides who is left." If the nazis had won WW2, people would have to believe that a mix of hypernationalism, Nordic paganism, and führer kult were "right".
Oh, and @Eric: "feminists have never been in favor of porn"? Google "sex-positive feminists" - if you dare.
Basically correct. If the Nazis had won the war we might still be debating how evil the Jews that Hitler (in that scenario, rightfully exterminated in the service of Aryan people) were, and how they would oppose the restoration of chattel slavery of the plantation order (blacks not accepting it being killed). Or feeding Christians to sharks or crocodiles in anaquarium (should bears and Big Cats be 'pedestrian' because the mere Romans did that*) as entertainment? Evil or supremely evil? Merely entities masquerading in human form unable to live honorably, or literal demons?
I have seen several arguments that the Axis powers lost the war because of their cruelty. Such ensured that the peoples of the Soviet Union could never long see the Nazis as liberators from Bolshevism. In the final two years of the war, Americans and Brits in liberated Europe had trouble with extended supply lines, but not with partisans derailing trains, ambushing trucks or troops, or bombing harbors to sink supply ships. If there is any one lesson of World War II, it is that giving people who come under one's control no cause to strike back creates victory in its own right.
...As for porn, we have a big disparity between comparatively gentle erotica and the brutal and dehumanizing sexuality in some pornography. People can do sex with dignity, and some people might be able to describe such. Much of the pornography out there has a man humiliating a woman or perhaps a man humiliating a man by making a cuckold of her husband. I am not going to delve into the variations. Sex at its best uplifts both participants, and if it devolves into the abuse and humiliation of one one participant for the gratification of the other it is wrong. And, yes, the unclothed female body at its best is a marvel to behold -- if one is a straight male or a lesbian. I can't speak for straight women or gay men. I never thought my genitals in any way beautiful.
*The rabbis of the time determined that it was improper for any Jew to deal bears, tigers, or lions to the Romans; those rabbis knew what was going on, and they thought it an abomination. Dealing them to the Persians was not such a problem.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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03-02-2019, 09:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-02-2019, 12:08 PM by Bill the Piper.)
(02-28-2019, 04:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As for the current clash of ideologies, although the immigration bashing during Trump's era does arouse tribalism and a cosmopolitan counter-movement, and globalization has been an issue because of free trade causing industrial decline and drug use, the key divide in this country remains the neo-liberal economics vs. neo or watered-down socialism, and racism (which also stokes anti-immigration) plays its role in this issue between the red and blue states.
It seems there are THREE camps all over the Western world, and the division combines economical and tribalism/cosmopolitanism polarisation:
-market liberals ("neoliberals") - they are waning but still exist and can sometimes strike back, as they did in France in 2017
-socialists or SJWs
-nationalist-populists, who want to restrict the market to protect national interests
When the 1T begins, I expect the market liberals to be gone, and moderate socialists to win, but before this happen the socialists will integrate some aspects of populism, like Corbyn does. Corbyn could be the British PM in 2022, and I think LePen will win in France.
Racism is IMO a subtype of tribalism, although it's possible to be tribalist without being racist. Judaism is a good example, there are Slavic-looking Jews and Hamitic-looking Jews, but they all regard themselves as descendants of Abraham despite having other, non-Semitic ancestors as well.
Quote:...As for porn, we have a big disparity between comparatively gentle erotica and the brutal and dehumanizing sexuality in some pornography. People can do sex with dignity, and some people might be able to describe such. Much of the pornography out there has a man humiliating a woman or perhaps a man humiliating a man by making a cuckold of her husband. I am not going to delve into the variations. Sex at its best uplifts both participants, and if it devolves into the abuse and humiliation of one one participant for the gratification of the other it is wrong. And, yes, the unclothed female body at its best is a marvel to behold -- if one is a straight male or a lesbian. I can't speak for straight women or gay men. I never thought my genitals in any way beautiful.
Absolutely, I love to admire the female body, but I'm angry at the acquisitors for trivialising this marvel. If you see a bare belly 15 times a day in a stupid advert, it loses some of its appeal. I'm totally with you that sex should uplift both partners. Too many millennial men had their sexuality warped by brutal internet porn and developed a masturbation addiction, so I wouldn't be surprised to see puritanical attitudes among the neo-Missionaries. Imagine a daughter discovering her Millennial dad jacks off to scenes of gang rape! The original missionaries also brought things like "social purity movement", which was (possibly) a reaction to brutal masculinity of the Gilded. Sex-positive movement will come back eventually, possibly during the next Dionysian saeculum scheduled to start about 2100, encouraged by medicine having eliminated all STD. Your dream of a bigger better summer of love may be the reality of 2130 rather than 2050.
In an even more remote future, genetic engineering could make woman's ovulation voluntary (as described in IM Banks' culture novels) and change human psychology eliminating possessive romantic love, at least among some sub-groups of future humans. Their sexual ethics might approach the model of "friends with benefits", while other sub-groups might remake themselves to become strict monogamists like many bird species.
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(03-02-2019, 09:41 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (02-28-2019, 04:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As for the current clash of ideologies, although the immigration bashing during Trump's era does arouse tribalism and a cosmopolitan counter-movement, and globalization has been an issue because of free trade causing industrial decline and drug use, the key divide in this country remains the neo-liberal economics vs. neo or watered-down socialism, and racism (which also stokes anti-immigration) plays its role in this issue between the red and blue states.
It seems there are THREE camps all over the Western world, and the division combines economical and tribalism/cosmopolitanism polarisation:
-market liberals ("neoliberals") - they are waning but still exist and can sometimes strike back, as they did in France in 2017
-socialists or SJWs
-nationalist-populists, who want to restrict the market to protect national interests
1. Libertarianism becomes a political fad in a 3T, but the best that they can do to achieve thir ends is to privatize a few things. The ideology fails because libertarianism is essentially utopian. Big Business as a rule does not want competition.
2. The Millennial Generation is much more collectivist than Boomers and X. The plutocratic agenda of most of the 3T and 4T (so far) has been effective at ensuring that life is pay-to-play... fiendishly costly for participation and low in rewards. Millennial adults may have had the worst introduction to capitalism except for the GI cohorts that entered middle childhood in the Great Depression.
3. Nationalist populists offer a vision of a country that serves too few of its people. It's obvious enough that Make America Great Again does not apply to anyone that the political leadership can deem a pariah. In view of the contradictions within national populism, it becomes a vehicle for demagogic liars who have no problems with the contradictions. Trump has already sold out much of America to the Master Class.
Quote:When the 1T begins, I expect the market liberals to be gone, and moderate socialists to win, but before this happen the socialists will integrate some aspects of populism, like Corbyn does. Corbyn could be the British PM in 2022, and I think LePen will win in France.
The market liberals become crony capitalists in practice with thei public-private partnerships that foist entrepreneurial risk upon taxpayers while assuring profits to people who get sweetheart deals.
Quote:Racism is IMO a subtype of tribalism, although it's possible to be tribalist without being racist. Judaism is a good example, there are Slavic-looking Jews and Hamitic-looking Jews, but they all regard themselves as descendants of Abraham despite having other, non-Semitic ancestors as well.
..and it is ugly. If tribalism is a necessity for preserving a way of life, so be it.
Judaism is a religion, and not a race. It may be ironic, but it may be the gentiles most like the Ashkenazim by culture -- Germans and Austrians -- imposed the Holocaust. I saw the argument that the Germans hated Jews to the extent that they saw in Jews what they disliked about themselves. Czech, Hungarian, Slovak and to some extent Polish Jews often got the rap for being too... German.
Quote:Quote:...As for porn, we have a big disparity between comparatively gentle erotica and the brutal and dehumanizing sexuality in some pornography. People can do sex with dignity, and some people might be able to describe such. Much of the pornography out there has a man humiliating a woman or perhaps a man humiliating a man by making a cuckold of her husband. I am not going to delve into the variations. Sex at its best uplifts both participants, and if it devolves into the abuse and humiliation of one one participant for the gratification of the other it is wrong. And, yes, the unclothed female body at its best is a marvel to behold -- if one is a straight male or a lesbian. I can't speak for straight women or gay men. I never thought my genitals in any way beautiful.
Absolutely, I love to admire the female body, but I'm angry at the acquisitors for trivialising this marvel. If you see a bare belly 15 times a day in a stupid advert, it loses some of its appeal. I'm totally with you that sex should uplift both partners. Too many millennial men had their sexuality warped by brutal internet porn and developed a masturbation addiction, so I wouldn't be surprised to see puritanical attitudes among the neo-Missionaries. Imagine a daughter discovering her Millennial dad jacks off to scenes of gang rape! The original missionaries also brought things like "social purity movement", which was (possibly) a reaction to brutal masculinity of the Gilded. Sex-positive movement will come back eventually, possibly during the next Dionysian saeculum scheduled to start about 2100, encouraged by medicine having eliminated all STD. Your dream of a bigger better summer of love may be the reality of 2130 rather than 2050.
... In the television business, T&A, abbreviations for anatomical parts known more prudishly as breasts and derrieres. TV programmers can't get enough of programming set in tropical or subtropical locations in which there are plenty of excuses to show attractive females in bathing suits.
What singles do is their own business, but once there is a spouse, porn is a form of adultery and even idolatry. If there are children around? Disgusting.
I see a big problem in serial marriages in which well-off men with huge amounts of money divorce their wives after they no longer resemble a Playboy centerfold. But this in part reflects economic inequality in which an executive makes 10 times as much as a clerk-typist. But he who has the gold makes the rules.
Quote:In an even more remote future, genetic engineering could make woman's ovulation voluntary (as described in IM Banks' culture novels) and change human psychology eliminating possessive romantic love, at least among some sub-groups of future humans. Their sexual ethics might approach the model of "friends with benefits", while other sub-groups might remake themselves to become strict monogamists like many bird species.
I see all sorts of potential mischief for genetic engineering. To be sure, I would not have problems with genetic engineering that ensures that children do not grow up with such horrible diseases as chorea, Tay-Sachs, etc. I can imagine racist abuses.
This said, one easy way to ensure a great retirement is to have a son who is the New Ted Williams.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(03-01-2019, 10:45 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: *The rabbis of the time determined that it was improper for any Jew to deal bears, tigers, or lions to the Romans; those rabbis knew what was going on, and they thought it an abomination. Dealing them to the Persians was not such a problem.
Interesting, thx.
(03-02-2019, 09:41 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: It seems there are THREE camps all over the Western world, and the division combines economical and tribalism/cosmopolitanism polarisation:
-market liberals ("neoliberals") - they are waning but still exist and can sometimes strike back, as they did in France in 2017
-socialists or SJWs
-nationalist-populists, who want to restrict the market to protect national interests
S&H wrote that the libertarians would lose ground during the rest of 3T, which didn't seem to happen.
(03-02-2019, 02:15 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: 2. The Millennial Generation is much more collectivist than Boomers and X. The plutocratic agenda of most of the 3T and 4T (so far) has been effective at ensuring that life is pay-to-play... fiendishly costly for participation and low in rewards. Millennial adults may have had the worst introduction to capitalism except for the GI cohorts that entered middle childhood in the Great Depression.
Certainly. The question is what they'd have to do to change that. They seem to have a problem with the "adulting" thing.
(03-02-2019, 02:15 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Judaism is a religion, and not a race. It may be ironic, but it may be the gentiles most like the Ashkenazim by culture -- Germans and Austrians -- imposed the Holocaust. I saw the argument that the Germans hated Jews to the extent that they saw in Jews what they disliked about themselves. Czech, Hungarian, Slovak and to some extent Polish Jews often got the rap for being too... German.
Who said that?
(03-02-2019, 02:15 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I see a big problem in serial marriages in which well-off men with huge amounts of money divorce their wives after they no longer resemble a Playboy centerfold.
OTOH the wives get half of his property plus alimony and in most cases the kids too.
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(01-21-2017, 06:54 PM)flbones too Wrote: I don't understand why the GOP consntly puts out tax plans that favor the rich. What's up with that? Are they really that retarded?
-- yes
 my 2 yr old Niece/yr old Nephew 2020
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(03-07-2019, 08:03 AM)Marypoza Wrote: (01-21-2017, 06:54 PM)flbones too Wrote: I don't understand why the GOP consntly puts out tax plans that favor the rich. What's up with that? Are they really that retarded?
-- yes
If every fiber of your being is centered on unfettered market capitalism, then more for the "job creators" is always a great idea, even when it fails miserably. It's akin to religion. It doesn't have to make sense to be accepted. It just is.
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03-11-2019, 11:48 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2019, 11:52 PM by Eric the Green.)
(03-02-2019, 09:41 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: It seems there are THREE camps all over the Western world, and the division combines economical and tribalism/cosmopolitanism polarisation:
-market liberals ("neoliberals") - they are waning but still exist and can sometimes strike back, as they did in France in 2017
-socialists or SJWs
-nationalist-populists, who want to restrict the market to protect national interests
When the 1T begins, I expect the market liberals to be gone, and moderate socialists to win, but before this happen the socialists will integrate some aspects of populism, like Corbyn does. Corbyn could be the British PM in 2022, and I think LePen will win in France.
Racism is IMO a subtype of tribalism, although it's possible to be tribalist without being racist. Judaism is a good example, there are Slavic-looking Jews and Hamitic-looking Jews, but they all regard themselves as descendants of Abraham despite having other, non-Semitic ancestors as well.
It's important to qualify "populist" with "nationalist" as you did in your first instance. Populism just means the power of the people, and properly means the Populist Party of 1892, which meant real policies to give more power to the people, which can only be on the left. Already the Left has been against too much free trade, and the Trumpists have incorporated that policy into their right-wing nationalism and racism. But you can't build an entire governing ideology out of that one issue.
I think you are correct about the 1T, but LePen will never win; Europe is too advanced to fall for this right-wing crap enough to elect its demagogues. America though, is less advanced and has a rigged system.
Quote:Sex-positive movement will come back eventually, possibly during the next Dionysian saeculum scheduled to start about 2100, encouraged by medicine having eliminated all STD. Your dream of a bigger better summer of love may be the reality of 2130 rather than 2050.
I have the benefit of the planetary cycles to tell me that for sure that the late 2040s will bring back a lot of the sixties, and in any case there was a lot of liberation and mysticism in the awakening of 1886-1908 too. So awakenings are never opposites, but always have similar content, especially because Americans are normally so un-awakened in other turnings that the need is always there for one, and those needs can't be repressed and ignored forever, or certainly not for two whole saeculum cycles. No, enjoy your long break from the awakening mindsets that your generation much prefers; you are getting your way now, but your children will rebel again. Your tech materialism rules for the other three turnings, but life and spirit will have its way again and burst through the concrete and the virtual realities again.
The 2046-66 awakening will be unprecedented in the way that it brings back the just-previous awakening; that's what the cycles tell me. If it weren't so, I wouldn't say it, regardless of what my dream is. I remember too, that when I was in the 1T, I know I wasn't happy, but I had no idea of the awakening that was to come, or what what it's mindset would be, and I did not think in the awakening ways yet, but in the same tech-materialist way that you do now. So the Awakening was a fabulous time of discovery for me. And as I say, it's really always available now for everyone. Just tune in to it, if you wanna. I suspect you won't, because unlike me, you are basically happy with where that tech-materialist mindset is taking things, and you don't like what the awakening brought us so much, or how it affected people in your generation and Gen X. So, different generations; different mindset.
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03-13-2019, 06:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019, 07:27 AM by Bill the Piper.)
(03-11-2019, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: No, enjoy your long break from the awakening mindsets that your generation much prefers; you are getting your way now, but your children will rebel again.
A rebellion in name of values which are now mainstream in pop culture and social media wouldn't be very "rebellious". But it could ignore this aspect and go against other aspects of the millennial conformity, for example against social media or authoritarian politics, while accepting the way millennials handle sexuality as a given. In old China, for example, sex was never a big deal. Noone considered it dirty like Abrahamic traditionalists do, but noone claimed is the most important thing in life like MTV thinks. IDK if Maoism changed that.
I still think the next saeculum will be more Apollonian (interested in mind and the cosmos) rather than Dionysian (Earth and flesh). In the end of Great Power Cycle it could be argued that Reason led to Auschwitz, but the lesson of the current saeculum is that Reason abdicating and leaving things to blind market forces leads to a world economic crisis.
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(03-13-2019, 06:58 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (03-11-2019, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: No, enjoy your long break from the awakening mindsets that your generation much prefers; you are getting your way now, but your children will rebel again.
A rebellion in name of values which are now mainstream in pop culture and social media wouldn't be very "rebellious". But it could ignore this aspect and go against other aspects of the millennial conformity, for example against social media or authoritarian politics, while accepting the way millennials handle sexuality as a given. In old China, for example, sex was never a big deal. Noone considered it dirty like Abrahamic traditionalists do, but noone claimed is the most important thing in life like MTV thinks. IDK if Maoism changed that.
I still think the next saeculum will be more Apollonian (interested in mind and the cosmos) rather than Dionysian (Earth and flesh). In the end of Great Power Cycle it could be argued that Reason led to Auschwitz, but the lesson of the current saeculum is that Reason abdicating and leaving things to blind market forces leads to a world economic crisis.
Reason is not enough. People need some moral compass if they are to avoid using it as an excuse to do horrible things in the name of some 'good' cause -- even liberty and equity. Reason without conscience led to the Reign of Terror in the aftermath of the French Revolution. Bolshevism was reason without sentiment, mercy, or conscience. Pure reason is great for the hard sciences, but go beyond those and one finds its deficiencies.
Fascism more derives from Romanticism than from reason, an attempt to reinvent glory that either never existed, had horrible flaws, or could never be recovered. The Nazi variant of fascism had no rational tests of good and evil, and could not even apply those to its victims. Reason requires one to test hypotheses instead of accepting them on faith alone. It would have been reasonable to test the racist values and ferocious nationalism at the core of Nazism -- but Nazi faith precluded such. Yes, Romanticism is good for creating some colorful culture, but drawing conclusions from Wagnerian bombast instead of recognizing it as pure entertainment has severe faults.
Reason gives one the ability to judge propositions for built-in failings such as contradictions. Contradictions at the least expose liars, fools, and the insane -- and are the easiest tools to use. .
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(03-13-2019, 06:58 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (03-11-2019, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: No, enjoy your long break from the awakening mindsets that your generation much prefers; you are getting your way now, but your children will rebel again.
A rebellion in name of values which are now mainstream in pop culture and social media wouldn't be very "rebellious". But it could ignore this aspect and go against other aspects of the millennial conformity, for example against social media or authoritarian politics, while accepting the way millennials handle sexuality as a given. In old China, for example, sex was never a big deal. Noone considered it dirty like Abrahamic traditionalists do, but noone claimed is the most important thing in life like MTV thinks. IDK if Maoism changed that.
I still think the next saeculum will be more Apollonian (interested in mind and the cosmos) rather than Dionysian (Earth and flesh). In the end of Great Power Cycle it could be argued that Reason led to Auschwitz, but the lesson of the current saeculum is that Reason abdicating and leaving things to blind market forces leads to a world economic crisis.
Culture will be a headline issue until something serious occurs, and we'll know that when it happens. So far, we're living in a perverse La-La Land, where Trump and Brexit are just reality TV. Either can trigger a mess quickly, so enjoy your not-crisis for now.
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Any comments on the admissions scandal at some highly-renowned universities?
A culture of corruption often breaks down in a 4T because it can no longer sustain itself. Legacy admissions were bad enough, capable of pushing someone of at-best middling talent (Dubya, Trump) ahead of people of genuine merit. Meanwhile the winners of the system find ways to shut out the less-favored once the 'legacy' graduates get control of access (or keep control of access) to the levers of economic and bureaucratic power. As vertically-integrated monopolies supplant a competitive economy, alternatives disappear.
The rest of us are expected to expect no more than the elites offer in their concept of generosity -- as little as possible -- in return for toil extracted under fear. The tax system is reshaped to favor those who have already Made It at the expense of people who might start new businesses.
We end up with the bureaucratic bloat of Soviet-style communism, the sense of entitlement of elites under feudalism, and the insatiable greed of elites that one saw among the Gilded-Age plutocrats.
I don't know if we need a revolution, let alone what sort. One thing is certain: we need to redo what has gone very wrong. We have institutions built for small shopkeepers and yeoman farmers. The plutocrats and bureaucrats rule, as is the norm in every society that has ever soured.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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03-17-2019, 04:00 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2019, 04:02 PM by David Horn.)
(03-17-2019, 02:01 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Any comments on the admissions scandal at some highly-renowned universities?
A culture of corruption often breaks down in a 4T because it can no longer sustain itself. Legacy admissions were bad enough, capable of pushing someone of at-best middling talent (Dubya, Trump) ahead of people of genuine merit. Meanwhile the winners of the system find ways to shut out the less-favored once the 'legacy' graduates get control of access (or keep control of access) to the levers of economic and bureaucratic power. As vertically-integrated monopolies supplant a competitive economy, alternatives disappear.
The rest of us are expected to expect no more than the elites offer in their concept of generosity -- as little as possible -- in return for toil extracted under fear. The tax system is reshaped to favor those who have already Made It at the expense of people who might start new businesses.
We end up with the bureaucratic bloat of Soviet-style communism, the sense of entitlement of elites under feudalism, and the insatiable greed of elites that one saw among the Gilded-Age plutocrats.
I don't know if we need a revolution, let alone what sort. One thing is certain: we need to redo what has gone very wrong. We have institutions built for small shopkeepers and yeoman farmers. The plutocrats and bureaucrats rule, as is the norm in every society that has ever soured.
I doubt this is a unique case. Our hyper-competitive culture encourages everyone to cheat, if they can. Elites have an easier time of it. Helicopter parenting was bad enough. Snowplow parenting is not just worse, but socially destructive. To those of you in the game: sorry, but your highly protected children are not going to be the new overlords, because they are and will continue to be totally unequipped to suffer any the slings and arrows life dishes out. That will lead to something unpleasant, but it's hard to know who gains from it. We know your precious coddled many are not likely to be among them, unless you, mommy and daddy, have resources to burn and connections to keep it quiet. Of course, mommy and daddy will eventually leave the scene, and Buffy and Junior will be clueless what to do then.
This could be a changing of the guard … if we're lucky.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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03-17-2019, 09:45 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2019, 09:47 PM by Eric the Green.)
I agree. Romanticism has high potential, just as reason can be beneficial, but both can have drawbacks.
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03-17-2019, 09:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2019, 09:56 PM by Eric the Green.)
(03-13-2019, 06:58 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (03-11-2019, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: No, enjoy your long break from the awakening mindsets that your generation much prefers; you are getting your way now, but your children will rebel again.
A rebellion in name of values which are now mainstream in pop culture and social media wouldn't be very "rebellious". But it could ignore this aspect and go against other aspects of the millennial conformity, for example against social media or authoritarian politics, while accepting the way millennials handle sexuality as a given. In old China, for example, sex was never a big deal. Noone considered it dirty like Abrahamic traditionalists do, but noone claimed is the most important thing in life like MTV thinks. IDK if Maoism changed that.
I still think the next saeculum will be more Apollonian (interested in mind and the cosmos) rather than Dionysian (Earth and flesh). In the end of Great Power Cycle it could be argued that Reason led to Auschwitz, but the lesson of the current saeculum is that Reason abdicating and leaving things to blind market forces leads to a world economic crisis.
I don't agree with the mainstream media portrayal or the rationalist and materialist view of the last awakening era. Younger people either resent it, like Xers, or don't understand it. Many boomers don't either now. The last awakening was about mind and cosmos as well as ecology and sex. Just a more expansive mind than rationalism can encompass. The next Awakening will have that spiritual aspiration as well, and sexual liberation will be back too since it's being repressed again now. All awakenings are spiritual and socially liberating. Count on it.
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(03-17-2019, 09:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (03-13-2019, 06:58 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: (03-11-2019, 11:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: No, enjoy your long break from the awakening mindsets that your generation much prefers; you are getting your way now, but your children will rebel again.
A rebellion in name of values which are now mainstream in pop culture and social media wouldn't be very "rebellious". But it could ignore this aspect and go against other aspects of the millennial conformity, for example against social media or authoritarian politics, while accepting the way millennials handle sexuality as a given. In old China, for example, sex was never a big deal. Noone considered it dirty like Abrahamic traditionalists do, but noone claimed is the most important thing in life like MTV thinks. IDK if Maoism changed that.
I still think the next saeculum will be more Apollonian (interested in mind and the cosmos) rather than Dionysian (Earth and flesh). In the end of Great Power Cycle it could be argued that Reason led to Auschwitz, but the lesson of the current saeculum is that Reason abdicating and leaving things to blind market forces leads to a world economic crisis.
I don't agree with the mainstream media portrayal or the rationalist and materialist view of the last awakening era. Younger people either resent it, like Xers, or don't understand it. Many boomers don't either now. The last awakening was about mind and cosmos as well as ecology and sex. Just a more expansive mind than rationalism can encompass. The next Awakening will have that spiritual aspiration as well, and sexual liberation will be back too since it's being repressed again now. All awakenings are spiritual and socially liberating. Count on it.
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03-17-2019, 10:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2019, 10:05 PM by Eric the Green.)
Also, the failure and moral debacle of market forces untamed is not a lesson of this saeculum and is not Dyonesian. It is a common failing of 3rd turnings. Also of 1st turnings often to a degree. And I'd add a particularly American malady.
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(03-17-2019, 04:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: (03-17-2019, 02:01 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Any comments on the admissions scandal at some highly-renowned universities?
A culture of corruption often breaks down in a 4T because it can no longer sustain itself. Legacy admissions were bad enough, capable of pushing someone of at-best middling talent (Dubya, Trump) ahead of people of genuine merit. Meanwhile the winners of the system find ways to shut out the less-favored once the 'legacy' graduates get control of access (or keep control of access) to the levers of economic and bureaucratic power. As vertically-integrated monopolies supplant a competitive economy, alternatives disappear.
The rest of us are expected to expect no more than the elites offer in their concept of generosity -- as little as possible -- in return for toil extracted under fear. The tax system is reshaped to favor those who have already Made It at the expense of people who might start new businesses.
We end up with the bureaucratic bloat of Soviet-style communism, the sense of entitlement of elites under feudalism, and the insatiable greed of elites that one saw among the Gilded-Age plutocrats.
I don't know if we need a revolution, let alone what sort. One thing is certain: we need to redo what has gone very wrong. We have institutions built for small shopkeepers and yeoman farmers. The plutocrats and bureaucrats rule, as is the norm in every society that has ever soured.
I doubt this is a unique case. Our hyper-competitive culture encourages everyone to cheat, if they can. Elites have an easier time of it. Helicopter parenting was bad enough. Snowplow parenting is not just worse, but socially destructive. To those of you in the game: sorry, but your highly protected children are not going to be the new overlords, because they are and will continue to be totally unequipped to suffer any the slings and arrows life dishes out. That will lead to something unpleasant, but it's hard to know who gains from it. We know your precious coddled many are not likely to be among them, unless you, mommy and daddy, have resources to burn and connections to keep it quiet. Of course, mommy and daddy will eventually leave the scene, and Buffy and Junior will be clueless what to do then.
This could be a changing of the guard … if we're lucky.
Honest systems are far more adept at selecting leaders on merit instead of on having the right connections through birth, cronyism, and social advantage. Honest systems do not have to pay untalented people adept largely at keeping competent people down.
A dishonest system gives advantages having no relationship to competence and ability. Maybe parents can give their children some pointers for staying in the family 'business' if such is a skilled trade or a learned profession -- but such does not work with those who lack the basic aptitude. Bureaucracies are good at hiding incompetence until someone makes a huge, and possibly catastrophic blunder.
Children should not be preparing to be 'overlords' just like Mommy or Daddy. Those who cannot get ahead honestly might as well cut their expectations. If one is cut out to be a vehicle mechanic, then Daddy the software engineer or Mommy the physician might as well live with the reality. One of the most distressing jobs available is being the engineer of a commuter train between San Jose and San Francisco. The problem? Kids who get a couple of bad grades run onto the track to commit suicide by getting struck by the train, thinking that in the hyper-competitive world for a few well-paying jobs and no mercy toward those who fall short, that their lives are ruined. So they end up doing blue-collar work in Indiana because they are priced out of the San Francisco Bay Area.
Maybe we were a better country when America was more a country of small businesses whose owners were obliged to meet the needs of customers in a narrow market instead of manipulating the market, buying lobbyists to protect a monopolistic advantage, and relying upon advertising instead of salesmanship. A social order is better off with lots of sort-of-prosperous farmers than corporate or plantation-style farmers and millions of peons.
What now develops fosters two trends dangerous to the preservation of the social order: incompetence at the top, and injustice permeating the system. Incompetence by leaders in charge of unjust systems are more the cause of violent, destructive revolutions than the radicals who take advantage of the opportunity.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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