Spiral Dynamics and where we are in history

[Eric the Green]

A few people have posted about Spiral Dynamics by now. This is a 1990s theory that has continued to circulate through the world of ideas, and our friends Rags and Chas and others have posted about it on 4T sites. Even Bob Butler, who doesn't want to look at it, actually proposes and argues for it, although in somewhat different terms.



Mr. Beck and Mr. Cowans wrote the book in 1996 that has spread the theory around, based on earlier work by psychologist Dr. Clare Graves, and with a background that includes many traditions going back to late Roman times at least.

Other authors have updated the work, including Steve MacIntosh in his great book:
http://www.stevemcintosh.com/books/integ...ciousness/

And this is a wonderful site that explains the theory:
http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/

In brief, it proposes that history unfolded in developmental stages, also called successive values memes, which some people today still occupy even if others have moved on and "transcended and included" them in a more-advanced stage. Each phase has a color as well as an alpha-numeric label. The colors are more recognizable:

Beige = the phase when the instinct for survival was still uppermost, and people associated in families. Circa the times from when we became homo sapiens sapiens until about 40,000 or 30,000 years ago.

Purple = the phase when we organized into tribes and told stories around the campire, worshipped and feared spirits and ancestors and relied on magical thinking. Circa the time of cave paintings up until about 4,000 years ago.

Red = the phase when war lords and emperors conquered territory, when people worked with metals also used for weapons, sought personal fame and glory, and worshipped male power gods; up until about 300 AD.

Blue = the phase of authoritarian mono-theist tradition when righteous morals were imposed to control behavior and enlist loyalty to the group. Up to about 1650 AD.

Orange = the "Enlightenment" phase of individualism and rational science enlisted to achieve material progress, and of secular humanism, the free market and the advance of democratic republican government. Up to the 1960s, or about the 1890s-1900s, depending on the author.

Green = the phase when feelings and respect for diversity are valued more highly, greater community is sought, and peace and environmental movements are happening. Since the 1960s, at least.

Yellow = a new phase, now emerging since the 1990s among a minority of people, who are interested in theories like Beck and Cowan proposed; called "integral," in which a hierarchy of values and excellence is recognized again, in an adaptable way in which all the value traditions are recognized as valid on their own level in a systemic order. "The world is a complex, self-organizing, natural system that requires integral solutions." People develop "Authenticity, systemic thinking and skills to become an instrument for the greater whole and access to a free (holistic) consciousness." 
http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/

Turquoise = a proposed future phase in which dedication to the whole and spirituality will predominate over individual quest for excellence in systemic thinking. Perhaps an updated version of blue.

From MacIntoch's book:

[Eric the Green]

It's a great theory, and like Generations/Turnings theory recognizes patterns in an integrated whole. You could say Strauss and Howe are part of "integral consciousness." Of course, although it recognizes rhythms, it is spiral; not just cyclic.

But, it's not quite accurate enough for my taste.

Even Bob might agree, because it does not recognize the dawn of agriculture as an epochal phase. It jumps straight from the cave men of the old stone age hunting culture to the warriors and emperors who enlisted the passion and loyalty of humanity in the violent projects of conquest and empire. And today's feminists might start to wonder, where was the age of goddess and fertility worship, when matriarchy prevailed in some places? How about the age of relative peace when villagers and city-dwellers built stone circles and temples everywhere to their ancestors which aligned with the stars and the cycles of the sun and moon? The pre-agricultural tribes didn't build these structures, and the Mars-era people stopped building them. The age of sacrifice and bliss which Joseph Campbell wrote an entire book about, when the cycle of fertility was venerated above all else? When people were organizing in early civilizations and towns beyond mere tribes, and specializing into different occupations and about 4 classes of people, and dependent on agriculture rather than hunting and gathering-- but not yet engaged in working with metals and constant warfare, veneration of power and violence, and personal advancement?

And it neglects the fact that the late middle ages and Renaissance were constantly engaged in the battle of church versus state, and the increasing power of ever-more powerful lords and kings engaged in reducing feudal anarchy into recognized, dynastic nation states. Church and State are not the same. That was the whole issue that preoccupied the people making history in those times. The move toward secularism and recognizing realities rather than religious dogma was progressing long before the "modern" age of industry and progress began.

And it is common for Americans to neglect the huge role that socialism, Marxism and communism have played in shaping society since the middle of the 19th century. And this industry-based, labor-movement culture is certainly not the same as today's feeling-oriented, eco-feminist, multi-cultural and politically-correct, anti-hierarchy, anti-racist green, post-modern culture.

And wasn't there a transition from an earlier phase even before beige? Humans go back millions of years.

So that's why I developed my own updated version of spiral dynamics.

[Eric the Green]

The astrological planets make excellent symbols of the value phases in human development. As explained here:





Except, of course, for Pluto and the asteroids! And Uranus equals "Rahu" and Neptune equals "Ketu" as used by this Vedic astrologer.

Many of the astrological Planets are also represented for us in Gustav Holst's suite "The Planets."




So this is not about the contention that planets influence human events at specific times and cycles, but it is about that the astrological planets correspond to the values memes in human development. They make good symbols of the archetypes of human experience. As above, so below.

http://philosopherswheel.com/planetarydynamics.html

[Eric the Green]

So, with the planets as guides to the phases of human development, we can construct a more accurate version of spiral dynamics.

I added Earth as a symbol of early humans.

Venus as the symbol of the agricultural, peaceful, goddess-venerating epoch.

Saturn as the symbol of the age of kings and early secular renaissance science.

Neptune as the symbol of communism and socialism, as well as the revival of mysticism. Collectivism in general.

With the other planets, including Pluto/Kuiper Belt, Chiron and centaurs, and Eris/scattered disk objects, aligning with the phases already recognized in spiral dynamics.

And the occultists have another model in which the planets are aligned in just the same way, in the right order: the kabbala's Tree of Life symbol:



The Earth represents the age of early humans (tan). Up until about 200,000 or maybe 75,000 years ago.

The Moon (beige) is the age of instinct and family development, and early culture. Up to about 40,000 years ago

Mercury (purple) which represents brethren and relatives, as well as communication and (esoterically) magic, is the age of magical thinking and tribal consciousness. Up to about 10,000 years ago.

Venus (pink) is the age of agriculture, fertility and goddess-worship, stone circles and temples and towns. Up to about 4200 years ago, the time of Sargon.

As we pass through the center circle, we arrive at civilization (yellow), about 3000 BC. The Tree of Life symbol is geo-centric, so astronomically the center circle is the Earth.

Mars (red) is the age of warriors and conquerers, metal work, ambition. Up to the time of Constantine, 300 AD.

Jupiter (blue) is the age of faith; of rule and advancement by authoritarian traditional religion, church, and religious empires. Up to Edward I, Phillip the Fair, Giotto, 1300 AD.

Saturn (brown) is the age of kings, secularism, early-science in visible realms, facing reality, and developing human perspective. Up to the Revolution.

Uranus (orange) (Rahu) is the age of revolution, democratic individualism, free market, industry, science of the invisible, inventions, electricity, eccentricity, the occult, progress, modernism. Advancing rapidly since Uranus' discovery in 1781.

Neptune (lemon) (Ketu), the great solvent, is the age of socialism, communism, labor movements, collectivism, social programs, and also romanticism, mysticism, impressionism. Since Neptune's discovery in 1846, and assuming greater power circa the 1890s-1900s.

Pluto and Kuiper Belt (green), the two-in-one dual planet discovered in 1930, whose Moon Charon was discovered in 1978, is the age of diversity and greenpeace; feminism, multi-culturalism, post-modern relativism, inclusiveness, sensitivity, human potential movements, gestalt psychology, polarization, interdependence, the information age. Since the 1960s, and increasing in power recently.

Chiron and centaurs (yellow). Chiron, discovered in 1977, and known as the wounded-healer in mythology, represents a link between the visible and invisible; tools of growth and transformation, personal high tech (Apple founded 1977) , and integral consciousness that seeks to include earlier values in a greater whole. Other centaurs were discovered in the 1990s, along with the Kuiper Belt (see Pluto). Centaurs are temporary asteroids that fall from the Kuiper Belt below Neptune and Uranus, but not below Jupiter, and eventually become comets. So they represent the phase of regression we are going through now. We have regressed pretty far, going through all these older values down to Mars with Dubya and Trump.

Ultimately, the full dawn of integral consciousness is represented by The Sun at the Center of the Tree of Life symbol, when the stages are truly integrated and not just regressed to.

Eris and scattered disk objects (turquoise) represent a future time when progress resumes in full and we can expand our consciousness to the galaxy and the Spirit of the Whole. Since Eris has been discovered, it may be dawning among some people in the 21st century, and it may represent today's resistance to regression since Bush's invasion of Iraq in 2003 when Eris was discovered.

[Eric the Green]

So the main symbol of our time is the discovery of Chiron in 1977 and the other Centaurs in the 1990s. Their nature is that of Kuiper Belt objects pulled down from their height by the gravity of Neptune and Pluto. They are temporary and revolve mostly between Neptune and Jupiter. After a million years or so, they become comets as they fall toward the Sun.

Symbolically, then, in terms of our planetary dynamic progression, they represent regression. Ultimately, the lesson they teach is to integrate all the value memes through which we have evolved into an adaptable, working whole. But in these first years after discovery, they represent the regression we have endured since Chiron was discovered during Carter's presidency. We have in effect fallen below Neptune again, and have regressed through the worst aspects of each planet down to Mars.

This is a regression unheard of before in America, at least, and what happens in America is important, and may be and has been copied by Europe and elsewhere. It explains why some people call this era a mega-unravelling. But it's not an unravelling; it's a regression.

The charming actor made the most of Carter's failing and bad luck. We fell from "socialist, collectivist" Neptune as Reagan pronounced government as the problem. Self-reliance and free enterprise were given free rein again. This is the worst side of Uranus, which had given us the "free market," the industrial revolution and bourgeois power. Libertarian economics was made supreme, and so it remains. But we also regressed down to Saturn, symbol of "big government" itself and all its hierarchy and oppressive flaws, and government that may no longer protect our rights. And what do we get when, with Uranus, we strip away big government? The real bosses; the corporations have taken over. It also represents regression from the spirituality and interest in the paranormal from the consciousness revolution back to dogmatic science-- the ideology that has taken over wikipedia and public broadcasting. And science itself is under attack, especially by those opposed to environmentalism, to which we had arisen with Pluto. So science has to defend itself again. Saturn represents pessimism and cynicism that has become so prominent since the 1980s. Below Saturn is Jupiter, which has returned in its most distorted form as the religious right, and also as radical Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Little more need be said about what turmoil this has caused since the moral majority came to power in 1980 in the USA, and the Ayatollahs took over in Iran in 1979. And by the time George W. Bush was elected, Empire was in power again too in the Project for a New American Century and the USA invasion of Iraq. Trump now represents this reactionary Mars in power incarnate.

So we have regressed. Will we learn anything, and will we come out of this regressive crisis alive and intact as a nation and world? What lessons is this regression through distorted, outdated value memes supposed to teach us?

[Marypoza]

(04-23-2017, 02:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: So the main symbol of our time is the discovery of Chiron in 1977 and the other Centaurs in the 1990s. Their nature is that of Kuiper Belt objects pulled down from their height by the gravity of Neptune and Pluto. They are temporary and revolve mostly between Neptune and Jupiter. After a million years or so, they become comets as they fall toward the Sun.

Symbolically, then, in terms of our planetary dynamic progression, they represent regression. Ultimately, the lesson they teach is to integrate all the value memes through which we have evolved into an adaptable, working whole. But in these first years after discovery, they represent the regression we have endured since Chiron was discovered during Carter's presidency. We have in effect fallen below Neptune again, and have regressed through the worst aspects of each planet down to Mars.

This is a regression unheard of before in America, at least, and what happens in America is important, and may be and has been copied by Europe and elsewhere. It explains why some people call this era a mega-unravelling. But it's not an unravelling; it's a regression.

The charming actor made the most of Carter's failing and bad luck. We fell from "socialist, collectivist" Neptune as Reagan pronounced government as the problem. Self-reliance and free enterprise were given free rein again. This is the worst side of Uranus, which had given us the "free market," the industrial revolution and bourgeois power. Libertarian economics was made supreme, and so it remains. But we also regressed down to Saturn, symbol of "big government" itself and all its hierarchy and oppressive flaws, and government that may no longer protect our rights. And what do we get when, with Uranus, we strip away big government? The real bosses; the corporations have taken over. It also represents regression from the spirituality and interest in the paranormal from the consciousness revolution back to dogmatic science-- the ideology that has taken over wikipedia and public broadcasting. And science itself is under attack, especially by those opposed to environmentalism, to which we had arisen with Pluto. So science has to defend itself again. Saturn represents pessimism and cynicism that has become so prominent since the 1980s. Below Saturn is Jupiter, which has returned in its most distorted form as the religious right, and also as radical Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Little more need be said about what turmoil this has caused since the moral majority came to power in 1980 in the USA, and the Ayatollahs took over in Iran in 1979. And by the time George W. Bush was elected, Empire was in power again too in the Project for a New American Century and the USA invasion of Iraq. Trump now represents this reactionary Mars in power incarnate.

So we have regressed. Will we learn anything, and will we come out of this regressive crisis alive and intact as a nation and world? What lessons is this regression through distorted, outdated value memes supposed to teach us?

-- ok the next stop is Earth. Does that mean we'll be home?

[Eric the Green]

I think we need to progress again. We need to move more fully into the yellow meme. This might mean the yellow center, yes, but that will depend on true integration rather than mere regression where we're still stuck now.

[Eric the Green]

I think about the v-memes of spiral dynamics once in a while, and I know some people here do too. And about their political bent. It can be a bit confusing. It's not Blue Republican vs. Orange Democrat.

First of all, Orange is mainly a libertarian meme, and that is the Republican backbone. That's why I insert a Lemon meme, because Lemons are socialists, or social Democrats, but are still mechanistic, like for example Mikebert here.

Then the Greens represent those Democrats (and many Green Party members) who are not so mechanistic, but touchy-feely. But some greens are really more Lemon, which is basically the mid-19th century humanitarian and altruistic attitude sometimes attributed to Greens; but Lemon greens are green on ecology because of science, while Greens per se are green on ecology because they love nature and think it's alive, and love everything organic.

The Turquoise meme people, few though they are, fold in with Green. While Greens are post-modern relativists who respect diversity, their key idea is that we are all one people on one planet. The mystical and new age Turquoise people just carry that a bit further by realizing that we are all essentially part of the One, and many Green memers are also new age mystics too.

While the few Yellows around are hard to fold into any political group, being flowing and adaptable, and are certainly not reactionary, essentially Yellow has a regressive streak, seeking to fold all the past memes together into an integral whole. And their respect for hierarchy (in answer to the green and lemon levelers) folds in with Orange competitiveness.

Blue of course is the Religious Right. And I also inserted Brown, which was a stage in history (state royalism) between Blue and Orange, which has few literal adherents today, but though still religious to a degree, was also secular, humanist and science-trending as opposed to Blue, but not so democratic or libertarian. Orange is scientific, but also opens up to the science of the invisible, whereas Brown was the science of the visible. And that opens up Orange to the new physics, at least for a few Oranges.

[Bill the Piper]

Good work!

Eric the Green Wrote:Beige = the phase when the instinct for survival was still uppermost, and people associated in families. Circa the times from when we became homo sapiens sapiens until about 40,000 or 30,000 years ago.

I would push it back before behavioural modernity, which started about 70 000 years ago. The animal age. Today, its values might be represented by anti-civilization anarchists as well as some aspects of pop-culture.

Quote:Purple = the phase when we organized into tribes and told stories around the campire, worshipped and feared spirits and ancestors and relied on magical thinking. Circa the time of cave paintings up until about 4,000 years ago.

The age of tribal societies. It started to end when first states appeared in Sumer and Egypt. Eastern Europe remained in purple stage until
the advent of Christianity, North America until the arrival of White settlers. Some peoples in Africa and South America are still there yet.

Quote:Red = the phase when war lords and emperors conquered territory, when people worked with metals also used for weapons, sought personal fame and glory, and worshipped male power gods; up until about 300 AD.

I would split that into authoritarian, theocratic Bronze Age, and more philosophical Classical Antiquity starting with Pythagoras, Confucius and the Buddha.

Quote:Blue = the phase of authoritarian mono-theist tradition when righteous morals were imposed to control behavior and enlist loyalty to the group. Up to about 1650 AD.

Basically the Middle Ages, but why do you say 1650 AD? The Renaissance started in the 15th century.

Dominion theologists, Islamists, etc. are stuck in the Blue phase.

Quote:Orange = the "Enlightenment" phase of individualism and rational science enlisted to achieve material progress, and of secular humanism, the free market and the advance of democratic republican government. Up to the 1960s, or about the 1890s-1900s, depending on the author.

Keep in mind that scientific socialism developed in the same era. To associate modernism with capitalism only is a very American-centric perspective. Karl Marx belongs in the Orange era as well, as does Lenin.

I would divide this Age of Discovery into two parts, the latter part starting about the time of the American Revolution should be called Industrial Age, or maybe Rationalist Age if you don't want to focus on technology. The primary difference would be less Christian influence in the Rationalist Age.

Quote:Green = the phase when feelings and respect for diversity are valued more highly, greater community is sought, and peace and environmental movements are happening. Since the 1960s, at least.

Yellow = a new phase, now emerging since the 1990s among a minority of people, who are interested in theories like Beck and Cowan proposed; called "integral," in which a hierarchy of values and excellence is recognized again, in an adaptable way in which all the value traditions are recognized as valid on their own level in a systemic order. "The world is a complex, self-organizing, natural system that requires integral solutions." People develop "Authenticity, systemic thinking and skills to become an instrument for the greater whole and access to a free (holistic) consciousness."
http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/

The millennial saeculum should be one period on this scale. It might be defined by the ethics of care and sensitivity: decline of the death penalty, more emphasis on self-expression and the environment than on advancing civilization at all costs. Postwar American intellectuals are such a bunch of care bears, it's cute and necessary to an extent, but must be balanced by rationalism of the Orange phase and some discipline-oriented morality from yet earlier ages. The Age of Sensitivity still has some work to do, since the power of acquisitors still exists and has to be eliminated fully before progressing to another era.

The counterculture's emphasis on emotions was necessary after a period of purely celebral attitudes. Even scientists admit they didn't study emotions properly before the millennial saeculum because they thought feeling belongs to the realm of art only, while politics, economics and science were supposed to be purely rational in the Orange phase.

Quote:Turquoise = a proposed future phase in which dedication to the whole and spirituality will predominate over individual quest for excellence in systemic thinking. Perhaps an updated version of blue.

Something like Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "cosmic perspective"? If so, I wholeheartedly agree. Though the future will have many ages as well, it's arrogant to assume we are near the top of the ladder.

To sum up, I'd list the ages as:
Beige - Survival Age - until 70000 BC or so
Purple - Tribal Age - until 3000 BC
Red - Age of Tyrants / Bronze Age - until 500 BC
Yellow (?) -Age of Harmony / Classical Antiquity - until 300 AD
Blue - Theocratic Age / Middle Ages - until 1450 AD
Orange - Age of Discovery - until 1775 AD
Amber - Rationalist Age / Industrial Age - until 1945 AD
Green - Age of Sensitivity / Electronic Age - now
Turquoise - Cosmic Age - future
(...)

[Bill the Piper]

(06-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: That's why I insert a Lemon meme, because Lemons are socialists, or social Democrats, but are still mechanistic, like for example Mikebert here.

It's true Progressivism, dominant form of Leftism in the previous saeculum. Today's Leftists should be called Inclusivists, I made a whole topic about this term on Personality Cafe. Being inclusive is a basic human decency for today's Leftists, the word is really used quite often. I find this name better than SJW, which sounds quite derogatory. Terms like leftism, socialism, etc. come from the Rationalist Age and are no longer adequate to this constantly evolving worldview.

Quote:Lemon greens are green on ecology because of science, while Greens per se are green on ecology because they love nature and think it's alive, and love everything organic.

Exactly. From an Inclusivist perspective, Lemon Progressivism was not inclusive enough because it didn't treat animals with the same sensitivity and care it treated humans. Even Tsiolkovsky, who was a real visionary, considered exterminating all animal species which are not necessary for humans, and trust me I was shocked while reading about this idea.

Quote:The Turquoise meme people, few though they are, fold in with Green. While Greens are post-modern relativists who respect diversity, their key idea is that we are all one people on one planet.

We are, but we should be careful while dealing with people who don't share this commitment to an inclusive global community. Dealing with people like the Taliban, Kim Jong Uhn, or even the bosses in Beijing requires toughness and readiness to use violence because nothing else can stop them. I don't trust the Turquoise precisely because they are too naive to deal with a world which is still full of tyranny and barbarism.

[Eric the Green]

(07-01-2019, 04:59 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(06-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: That's why I insert a Lemon meme, because Lemons are socialists, or social Democrats, but are still mechanistic, like for example Mikebert here.

It's true Progressivism, dominant form of Leftism in the previous saeculum. Today's Leftists should be called Inclusivists, I made a whole topic about this term on Personality Cafe. Being inclusive is a basic human decency for today's Leftists, the word is really used quite often. I find this name better than SJW, which sounds quite derogatory. Terms like leftism, socialism, etc. come from the Rationalist Age and are no longer adequate to this constantly evolving worldview.

Quote:Lemon greens are green on ecology because of science, while Greens per se are green on ecology because they love nature and think it's alive, and love everything organic.

Exactly. From an Inclusivist perspective, Lemon Progressivism was not inclusive enough because it didn't treat animals with the same sensitivity and care it treated humans. Even Tsiolkovsky, who was a real visionary, considered exterminating all animal species which are not necessary for humans, and trust me I was shocked while reading about this idea.

Quote:The Turquoise meme people, few though they are, fold in with Green. While Greens are post-modern relativists who respect diversity, their key idea is that we are all one people on one planet.

We are, but we should be careful while dealing with people who don't share this commitment to an inclusive global community. Dealing with people like the Taliban, Kim Jong Uhn, or even the bosses in Beijing requires toughness and readiness to use violence because nothing else can stop them. I don't trust the Turquoise precisely because they are too naive to deal with a world which is still full of tyranny and barbarism.

I'm glad we agree on the above, even though I don't like some of the philosophical quotes you gave

Inclusivists is a good word for today's liberals, or Green memers.

I want a Turquoise as my guru, but I'm not sure that the relatively-free portion of humanity is ready for Turquoise national leaders. Gabbard and Williamson might be sort of Tuquoisish.

[Eric the Green]

(06-28-2019, 03:55 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Good work!

Eric the Green Wrote:Beige = the phase when the instinct for survival was still uppermost, and people associated in families. Circa the times from when we became homo sapiens sapiens until about 40,000 or 30,000 years ago.

I would push it back before behavioural modernity, which started about 70 000 years ago. The animal age. Today, its values might be represented by anti-civilization anarchists as well as some aspects of pop-culture.

Quote:Purple = the phase when we organized into tribes and told stories around the campfire, worshipped and feared spirits and ancestors and relied on magical thinking. Circa the time of cave paintings up until about 4,000 years ago.

The age of tribal societies. It started to end when first states appeared in Sumer and Egypt. Eastern Europe remained in purple stage until
the advent of Christianity, North America until the arrival of White settlers. Some peoples in Africa and South America are still there yet.

Quote:Red = the phase when war lords and emperors conquered territory, when people worked with metals also used for weapons, sought personal fame and glory, and worshipped male power gods; up until about 300 AD.

I would split that into authoritarian, theocratic Bronze Age, and more philosophical Classical Antiquity starting with Pythagoras, Confucius and the Buddha.

Quote:Blue = the phase of authoritarian mono-theist tradition when righteous morals were imposed to control behavior and enlist loyalty to the group. Up to about 1650 AD.

Basically the Middle Ages, but why do you say 1650 AD? The Renaissance started in the 15th century.

Dominion theologists, Islamists, etc. are stuck in the Blue phase.

Quote:Orange = the "Enlightenment" phase of individualism and rational science enlisted to achieve material progress, and of secular humanism, the free market and the advance of democratic republican government. Up to the 1960s, or about the 1890s-1900s, depending on the author.

Keep in mind that scientific socialism developed in the same era. To associate modernism with capitalism only is a very American-centric perspective. Karl Marx belongs in the Orange era as well, as does Lenin.

I would divide this Age of Discovery into two parts, the latter part starting about the time of the American Revolution should be called Industrial Age, or maybe Rationalist Age if you don't want to focus on technology. The primary difference would be less Christian influence in the Rationalist Age.

Quote:Green = the phase when feelings and respect for diversity are valued more highly, greater community is sought, and peace and environmental movements are happening. Since the 1960s, at least.

Yellow = a new phase, now emerging since the 1990s among a minority of people, who are interested in theories like Beck and Cowan proposed; called "integral," in which a hierarchy of values and excellence is recognized again, in an adaptable way in which all the value traditions are recognized as valid on their own level in a systemic order. "The world is a complex, self-organizing, natural system that requires integral solutions." People develop "Authenticity, systemic thinking and skills to become an instrument for the greater whole and access to a free (holistic) consciousness."
http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/

The millennial saeculum should be one period on this scale. It might be defined by the ethics of care and sensitivity: decline of the death penalty, more emphasis on self-expression and the environment than on advancing civilization at all costs. Postwar American intellectuals are such a bunch of care bears, it's cute and necessary to an extent, but must be balanced by rationalism of the Orange phase and some discipline-oriented morality from yet earlier ages. The Age of Sensitivity still has some work to do, since the power of acquisitors still exists and has to be eliminated fully before progressing to another era.

The counterculture's emphasis on emotions was necessary after a period of purely celebral attitudes. Even scientists admit they didn't study emotions properly before the millennial saeculum because they thought feeling belongs to the realm of art only, while politics, economics and science were supposed to be purely rational in the Orange phase.

Quote:Turquoise = a proposed future phase in which dedication to the whole and spirituality will predominate over individual quest for excellence in systemic thinking. Perhaps an updated version of blue.

Something like Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "cosmic perspective"? If so, I wholeheartedly agree. Though the future will have many ages as well, it's arrogant to assume we are near the top of the ladder.

To sum up, I'd list the ages as:
Beige - Survival Age - until 70000 BC or so
Purple - Tribal Age - until 3000 BC
Red - Age of Tyrants / Bronze Age - until 500 BC
Yellow (?) -Age of Harmony / Classical Antiquity - until 300 AD
Blue - Theocratic Age / Middle Ages - until 1450 AD
Orange - Age of Discovery - until 1775 AD
Amber - Rationalist Age / Industrial Age - until 1945 AD
Green - Age of Sensitivity / Electronic Age - now
Turquoise - Cosmic Age - future
(...)

I'm not sure which post you are quoting there; this is my summary as I see it of the conventional view of Spiral Dynamics; not fully my own view. I see the Blue/Jupiter Age as 300-1300 AD, and that was succeeded by a Brown/Saturn Age in which state secularism was dominant. That equals your Orange Age of discovery. My Orange/Uranus Age, together with the Lemon/Neptune phase, is the Amber Rationalist Industrial Age you cite. Politics being important to spiral and planetary dynamics, I split this up into individualist classical liberal (Uranus/Orange) and socialist/social liberalism (Neptune/Lemon). This split is important, and remains the primary driver of our Red/Blue political split today, and of the Cold War before that. But I designate the two fruity memes (your Amber meme) as partners.

I do agree that the circa 600-500 BC era was very transformational indeed. It is called the Axis Age. This is significantly indicated by astrology, more than by spiral dynamics, which lumps the two periods together as red. In circa 577 BC Uranus, Neptune and Pluto formed a triple conjunction for the only time in history, and probably the closest such line-up in all of human existence. All 3 planets of enlightenment in conjunction is a big deal.

But for spiral and planetary dynamics, the red/Mars dominion remained in power up to the Fall of Rome (or more-exactly to the Constantine religious takeover of the empire in 300 AD), but blue/Jupiter was "rising," as I see it, from circa 570 BC to 300 AD, and that represented the philosophical and religious awakening that was growing among enlightened people and spiritual advisors, but only came into power in the Middle Ages or Age of Faith.

As you put it, Amber is equivalent to my fruity Orange and Lemon memes, although I certainly see it as persisting until circa 1966. Up till then, "progress was our most important product." Rationalist/Industrialist civilization was still going full blast, except among a few existentialists and beatniks. I call this exception "Pluto rising."

As you probably know, I inserted a Pink/Venus Age to represent the enormous change brought by the Age of Agriculture and Herding culture around 8000 BC. The red/Mars empires and tyrants and the metal ages really got going only with Sargon in circa 2100 BC., though there was minor warlike behavior before that which I call "Mars rising." The stone circles and pyramids were the creation of the later years of this Venus "new stone age" (neolithic). Notably, in the Red meme phase, they stopped building these kinds of stone monuments and concentrated on metal work and courage, both useful for the imperial conquests.

The need for balance for the Green meme that you mention is why the spiral dynamics people inserted a Yellow integral phase following Green.

Remember I use the planets as symbols rather than causes in planetary dynamics, my update of spiral dynamics, and it's interesting that we go through these phases in astronomical order.
http://philosopherswheel.com/planetarydynamics.html

[Bill the Piper]

(07-01-2019, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not sure which post you are quoting there; this is my summary as I see it of the conventional view of Spiral Dynamics; not fully my own view.

I thought that was your work, or work of a group you're working with.

Quote:My Orange/Uranus Age, together with the Lemon/Neptune phase, is the Amber Rationalist Industrial Age you cite. Politics being important to spiral and planetary dynamics, I split this up into individualist classical liberal (Uranus/Orange) and socialist/social liberalism (Neptune/Lemon). This split is important, and remains the primary driver of our Red/Blue political split today, and of the Cold War before that. But I designate the two fruity memes (your Amber meme) as partners.

Fine. I've chosen amber because of Liberal Democrats, a British party devoted to Enlightenment values in many ways.

Quote:I do agree that the circa 600-500 BC era was very transformational indeed. It is called the Axis Age. This is significantly indicated by astrology, more than by spiral dynamics, which lumps the two periods together as red. In circa 577 BC Uranus, Neptune and Pluto formed a triple conjunction for the only time in history, and probably the closest such line-up in all of human existence. All 3 planets of enlightenment in conjunction is a big deal.

But for spiral and planetary dynamics, the red/Mars dominion remained in power up to the Fall of Rome (or more-exactly to the Constantine religious takeover of the empire in 300 AD), but blue/Jupiter was "rising," as I see it, from circa 570 BC to 300 AD, and that represented the philosophical and religious awakening that was growing among enlightened people and spiritual advisors, but only came into power in the Middle Ages or Age of Faith.

The Theocratic worldview in fact started with Abraham and Echnaton, about 1500 BC. We can only speculate whether the Hebrew patriarch and the heretic pharaoh knew of each other, and if so, who influenced whom. It may be the case the origins of Israelite monotheism were pushed back to conceal the Egyptian inspiration. After the failure of Echnaton's experiment, the Isralites were the only Theocratic society in a Bronze Age world, not to mention having a strong democratic streak until David and Solomon.

Pythagoras and Socrates, and Zoroaster in Persia managed to create more visible Theocratic movements, but they did not take over and the Bronze Age worldview was indeed mainstream until Constantine. Aristotle was a Bronze Age man, his perfect man was an egoistic, vain noble. By means of Aristotelian philosophies such as Thomism and Randism the Bronze Age worldview still exerts an influence.

Quote:As you probably know, I inserted a Pink/Venus Age to represent the enormous change brought by the Age of Agriculture and Herding culture around 8000 BC.

Of course, the neolithic was different from the Palaeolithic. Pink and Venus usually symbolise women, do you think the neolithic cultures were matriarchal?

Quote:The red/Mars empires and tyrants and the metal ages really got going only with Sargon in circa 2100 BC., though there was minor warlike behavior before that which I call "Mars rising."

Primitive humans were very warlike, you may know a book called "War before civilisation" by Lawrence Keeley. The statistics show more people died in warfare among hunter-gatherers than during WW2. But primitive war was poorly organised, and noone had technological advantage since everybody fought only with spears and bows. So the psychological effects of tribal wars must have been less devastating than in the age of tyrants.

[Eric the Green]

Thanks for your good comments.

(07-02-2019, 06:31 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(07-01-2019, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As you probably know, I inserted a Pink/Venus Age to represent the enormous change brought by the Age of Agriculture and Herding culture around 8000 BC.

Of course, the neolithic was different from the Palaeolithic. Pink and Venus usually symbolise women, do you think the neolithic cultures were matriarchal?

I think there was some matriarchy, and that the goddess was much more prominently worshipped than in the Bronze and early Iron Ages.

Quote:

Quote:The red/Mars empires and tyrants and the metal ages really got going only with Sargon in circa 2100 BC., though there was minor warlike behavior before that which I call "Mars rising."

Primitive humans were very warlike, you may know a book called "War before civilisation" by Lawrence Keeley. The statistics show more people died in warfare among hunter-gatherers than during WW2. But primitive war was poorly organised, and noone had technological advantage since everybody fought only with spears and bows. So the psychological effects of tribal wars must have been less devastating than in the age of tyrants.

There is much dissent from the Keeley view.
(quote: )
One view, reinforced by studies of conflict in chimpanzees and scattered archaeological evidence of violent deaths in prehistoric humans, holds that group-on-group violence was common and constant, both reflecting and influencing human nature.

A few other researchers consider that view unjustifiably dark, a sort of scientific version of original sin. They say collective human violence was an aberration, not a basic feature of life. In this camp is Fry, who in 2007’s Beyond War: The Human Potential for Peace argued that archaeological evidence of prehistoric warfare was often misinterpreted, and modern hunter-gatherer violence exaggerated.

'The vast majority of us assume that war is ancient, that it's part of human nature.' In most foraging societies, said Fry, lethal aggression was infrequent, and in the archaeological record violence didn’t take regular group-on-group character until relatively recently, when people settled down in ever-larger, more complex and hierarchical societies.

More here:
https://www.wired.com/2013/07/to-war-is-...rhaps-not/

[Bill the Piper]

Now I see that spiral dynamics matches my political colour code well:

Red = Nationalist/Fascist (on my chart, Blue)
Blue = Traditionalist (Black)
Orange = Classical Liberal (Yellow)
Lemon = Scientific Socialist (Red)
Green = Countercultural (Purple)

Though I'm not sure if the nationalists aren't a variety of Lemon, another form of state capitalism only with a more military-based structure. Their militarism is definitely a throwback to the Red stage, but their views on culture are surprisingly close to Lemons' scientism. It's especially visible in the Arab world, where "national liberation" movements like Baathism aimed at Westernizing their nations culturally in order to expunge the influence of Blue theocrats. But even Hitler was quite modernist in many ways.

[Eric the Green]

(07-05-2019, 02:03 PM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Now I see that spiral dynamics matches my political colour code well:

Red = Nationalist/Fascist (on my chart, Blue)
Blue = Traditionalist (Black)
Orange = Classical Liberal (Yellow)
Lemon = Scientific Socialist (Red)
Green = Countercultural (Purple)

Though I'm not sure if the nationalists aren't a variety of Lemon, another form of state capitalism only with a more military-based structure. Their militarism is definitely a throwback to the Red stage, but their views on culture are surprisingly close to Lemons' scientism. It's especially visible in the Arab world, where "national liberation" movements like Baathism aimed at Westernizing their nations culturally in order to expunge the influence of Blue theocrats. But even Hitler was quite modernist in many ways.

That's a good match. 

Historically, nationalism was part of classical liberalism when the Orange meme was in the ascendant (from the American and French Revolutions to 1848), but folds in with scientific socialism and collective industrialism once the Lemon meme has the momentum (from then to the 1960s). Although these two sides of the Lemon meme were enemies to the death, they both shared the belief in mechanistic science and evolution to a degree, seeing Darwinian evolution as central to their view of history and struggle, and both strongly emphasized the collective over the individual.

Red originally was militaristic imperialism, and did not consist of nations but of empires and military city-states; fascism as we know it is a modern movement, but which appropriates red as part of its methods and ways; as did communism to a degree as well.

[Eric the Green]

I think though that is a good match overall. Although historically Red in Spiral Dynamics referred to the ancient military empires and warlords, and not to modern nations, today that Red approach is most typically apparent in the fascist and nationalist movements and states.

[Bill the Piper]

(07-08-2019, 11:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I think though that is a good match overall. Although historically Red in Spiral Dynamics referred to the ancient military empires and warlords, and not to modern nations, today that Red approach is most typically apparent in the fascist and nationalist movements and states.

Nazism was a fusion of the two worldviews, Red was found in occult Nazism, represented by the SS elite and today's Satanists inspired by Nazi occultism. Lemon was represented by the socialist side of Nazism, embodied by types like Otto Strasser.

Spanish fascism was more of a fusion of Blue and Red.

[Eric the Green]

(07-08-2019, 11:24 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(07-08-2019, 11:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I think though that is a good match overall. Although historically Red in Spiral Dynamics referred to the ancient military empires and warlords, and not to modern nations, today that Red approach is most typically apparent in the fascist and nationalist movements and states.

Nazism was a fusion of the two worldviews, Red was found in occult Nazism, represented by the SS elite and today's Satanists inspired by Nazi occultism. Lemon was represented by the socialist side of Nazism, embodied by types like Otto Strasser.

Spanish fascism was more of a fusion of Blue and Red.

Yes, but occultism is mostly a side issue; occultism is basically Purple or Green in Spiral Dynamics.  The Red in Nazism was found in its militarism and its drive for conquest. The religious element in ancient Red (besides the outright worship of the leader himself) was the worship of male war gods, and that was apparent in Nazi reverence for the German and Nordic nationalist war-god mythology celebrated by Wagner. Worship of the leader is also pretty much replicated in modern nationalist Red memes.

The Lemon element in Nazism was mostly its pseudo-scientific Social Darwinism, and its embrace of technology and industry; also its phony appeal to the working class. Fascism does provide jobs for the workers, especially in the war industry as well as infrastructure construction. But it doesn't give any political or industrial power to the workers; it takes this away. Spanish and Italian fascism used the traditional Blue element in their societies to cement their appeal to authority.

Although restrained by the constitution, and by elements in his own administration, if Trump had his way he would assume rule as a fascist dictator without any hesitation. He is literally Mussolini reincarnate, and his appeal and methods are entirely fascist.

[Bill the Piper]

(07-08-2019, 04:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, but occultism is mostly a side issue; occultism is basically Purple or Green in Spiral Dynamics.  The Red in Nazism was found in its militarism and its drive for conquest. The religious element in ancient Red (besides the outright worship of the leader himself) was the worship of male war gods, and that was apparent in Nazi reverence for the German and Nordic nationalist war-god mythology celebrated by Wagner. Worship of the leader is also pretty much replicated in modern nationalist Red memes.

100% agreement. IDK much about original Nazi occultists, but today's neo-Nazi Satanists identify Satan with Odin, the Nordic war-god celebrated by Wagner. Today militarism and drive for conquest are seen in most varieties of Satanism, but apart form the neo-Nazi variety they focus on individual rather than racial perspective. "Will to power" was invented by Nietzsche, so revival of the Red worldview must have started with him.

From the generational perspective, these throwbacks to Red are mostly found in nomadic generations.

Quote:Although restrained by the constitution, and by elements in his own administration, if Trump had his way he would assume rule as a fascist dictator without any hesitation. He is literally Mussolini reincarnate, and his appeal and methods are entirely fascist.

I agree again, though the "elements in his own administration" appear to be neo-cons. This time you cannot deny they're doing something good.