To impeach, or not to impeach

[Eric the Green]

(11-05-2019, 10:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-04-2019, 08:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Republicans seem 90% behind Trump these days, but without him fault-lines appear on your side two. But let's take your division and take a look. Right now, moderate Democrats and independents leaning Democratic are leaning more blue. You see that in suburbs who are turning away from Trump and the Republican extremism. There is a fault-line, though, within Democrats between gradualists and whole-hog progressives. The latter are not really extremists, except by comparison to you red-state and red-county guys, who compared to the rest of the developed world are way off on the extreme right; provincial and parochial rednecks and hillbillies at heart. 

But it looks like your "America" red group has about 40% of the vote, with blue moderates about 25% and blue progressives about 25%, with 10% at the most up for grabs. That's just a rough estimate, and these categories are fluid. But a good president, like Obama was, will unite both Democratic factions for the most part and swing the majority of independents along, while Trump will have to settle for about 45% in that case. Rumphead could still win though, because he only needs 46% for an electoral college win if there's a third party candidate that's strong, if voters are suppressed, if big dark money talks, and if Republican cheating and hacking is successful.

Well, I was more of a Rubio supporter than a Trump supporter myself during the primary elections but that didn't stop me from accepting his loss and supporting Trump in the national election. Like I said, there isn't a natural fault line that exists among Republican supporters or it's base these days. Hey, you got some rather weak minded and some uppiity to a fault Republican leaning folks who couldn't handle seeing a colored jerk who was most likely trying to pick a fight with Trump supporters in front of the national camera's getting their ass kicked by hardcore Trump supporters or someone rough around the edges like Trump being their president so to speak.  

Unfortunately, the moderates and independents seem to  have no choice but to go along with those that they're most reliant upon these days. You should pat yourself on the back because they're about the only group of American  people who are largely reliant upon and therefore must go along with blue voters/supporters and their progressive wing these days. I assume that they understand that they won't be reelected for accomplishing little to nothing about the issues that they were elected to address and work with the Republicans to fix. Yes, there still seems to be a bit of a rift at the top between Trump and the remnants of the old beltway Republicans/Rhino's.

I know Republicans are saying that the Democrats are wasting time on impeachment and should be "working with the Republicans" to solve national issues instead. The problem is, Democrats usually can't work with Republicans to solve real issues, because Republican policy is to continue letting those issues fester, and not do anything about them.

The only way Democrats, whether moderate or liberal, will be able to accomplish anything is with a Democratic president and senate. But our constitution makes that very difficult. Hicks and provincials rule our government, because of the constitution crafted to encourage southern states to join the union. And these days, our national political division is stark between the hicks and the city slickers.

It's good when Republicans occasionally see the light, though. I was pleased to see the Oklahoma Republican governor release over 400 prisoners who were sentenced to 15 years for drug offenses. The governor said on the PBS Newshour that they were in prison just because "we were angry with them, not afraid of them." OK had the largest per capita incarceration rate in the USA under their extreme Republican regime; now it won't be #1, and there will be programs to help these people.

I'm sure our esteemed moderator will approve.

[pbrower2a]

(11-06-2019, 12:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-05-2019, 10:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-04-2019, 08:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Republicans seem 90% behind Trump these days, but without him fault-lines appear on your side two. But let's take your division and take a look. Right now, moderate Democrats and independents leaning Democratic are leaning more blue. You see that in suburbs who are turning away from Trump and the Republican extremism. There is a fault-line, though, within Democrats between gradualists and whole-hog progressives. The latter are not really extremists, except by comparison to you red-state and red-county guys, who compared to the rest of the developed world are way off on the extreme right; provincial and parochial rednecks and hillbillies at heart. 

But it looks like your "America" red group has about 40% of the vote, with blue moderates about 25% and blue progressives about 25%, with 10% at the most up for grabs. That's just a rough estimate, and these categories are fluid. But a good president, like Obama was, will unite both Democratic factions for the most part and swing the majority of independents along, while Trump will have to settle for about 45% in that case. Rumphead could still win though, because he only needs 46% for an electoral college win if there's a third party candidate that's strong, if voters are suppressed, if big dark money talks, and if Republican cheating and hacking is successful.

Well, I was more of a Rubio supporter than a Trump supporter myself during the primary elections but that didn't stop me from accepting his loss and supporting Trump in the national election. Like I said, there isn't a natural fault line that exists among Republican supporters or it's base these days. Hey, you got some rather weak minded and some uppiity to a fault Republican leaning folks who couldn't handle seeing a colored jerk who was most likely trying to pick a fight with Trump supporters in front of the national camera's getting their ass kicked by hardcore Trump supporters or someone rough around the edges like Trump being their president so to speak.  

Unfortunately, the moderates and independents seem to  have no choice but to go along with those that they're most reliant upon these days. You should pat yourself on the back because they're about the only group of American  people who are largely reliant upon and therefore must go along with blue voters/supporters and their progressive wing these days. I assume that they understand that they won't be reelected for accomplishing little to nothing about the issues that they were elected to address and work with the Republicans to fix. Yes, there still seems to be a bit of a rift at the top between Trump and the remnants of the old beltway Republicans/Rhino's.

I know Republicans are saying that the Democrats are wasting time on impeachment and should be "working with the Republicans" to solve national issues instead. The problem is, Democrats usually can't work with Republicans to solve real issues, because Republican policy is to continue letting those issues fester, and not do anything about them.

The only way Democrats, whether moderate or liberal, will be able to accomplish anything is with a Democratic president and senate. But our constitution makes that very difficult. Hicks and provincials rule our government, because of the constitution crafted to encourage southern states to join the union. And these days, our national political division is stark between the hicks and the city slickers.

National security has never been seen as a waste of time in House or Senate purview. Republicans have usually been successful in using the  debate on national security against Democrats as 'soft on Communism' or 'soft on terrorism'. Today the issue is who is 'soft on corruption at the expense of national security.

This should be easy. National security can fare well when the President simply chooses to do what is right. The President that as a candidate was accused of 'palling' with terrorists signed off on orders to execute a well-planned killing of Osama bin Ladin in full knowledge of the diplomatic consequences. So the President gets the reputation of having a mailed fist under a velvet glove, if only when appropriate. I can think of far worse. The announcement in no way mocks the dead for whimpering or "dying like a dog". An aside: dogs do not put on suicide vests and detonate them.

Congress apportioned funds to Ukraine, and if the President is to sequester those funds, then he had better have compelling cause for so doing (futility, human rights).

[Anthony '58]

46 years ago, when my older brother was a senior at a Catholic high school on Staten Island, the school offered a course named "Contemporary Moral Questions," one of whose lesson plans amounted to sex education on steroids and HGH all rolled into one.  A group of conservative parents, including my own parents, who were way into Ayn Rand and George Lincoln Rockwell at the time, under the banner CUF - Catholics United for the Faith - protested virulently against the lesson plan, and the course in general, leading to a meeting among the faculty (ordained and lay), parents, and, calamitously, students.  At the meeting, a liberal mother turned to my mother and said: "It's your kid's last year.  Why make waves?"

Similarly, it's Trump's last year.  So why are the Democrats making waves?  And the waves they're making might turn our country into the Titanic.

[David Horn]

(11-09-2019, 04:30 PM)Anthony Wrote: 46 years ago, when my older brother was a senior at a Catholic high school on Staten Island, the school offered a course named "Contemporary Moral Questions," one of whose lesson plans amounted to sex education on steroids and HGH all rolled into one.  A group of conservative parents, including my own parents, who were way into Ayn Rand and George Lincoln Rockwell at the time, under the banner CUF - Catholics United for the Faith - protested virulently against the lesson plan, and the course in general, leading to a meeting among the faculty (ordained and lay), parents, and, calamitously, students.  At the meeting, a liberal mother turned to my mother and said: "It's your kid's last year.  Why make waves?"

Similarly, it's Trump's last year.  So why are the Democrats making waves?  And the waves they're making might turn our country into the Titanic.

On Trump, the issue is really the future, not Mafia Don himself.  There is a minimal level of decorum, cognizance, empathy, ethics and morality, and simple competence that's a baseline requirement for the job.  Mafia Don fails on every level.  That needs to be a line in the sand for future autocrats-in-training who may apply for the job.

So it's impeachment by default.

[Anthony '58]

The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020. It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

[Eric the Green]

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

David's point is well-taken. The Democrats would lose even more voters if they refuse to take action on such violations of ethics in office. To do so is to admit that Trump can get away with anything, which sets a bad precedent to say the least. It is their duty to impeach, whether some voters like it or not.

Impeachment may be shoring up Trump's base in white-majority-low education-working class states including crucial PA, WI and MI. He seems to have been further behind there before now. If this sticks, then the Democrats are in trouble. This may be temporary though, as voters there remember again how little Trump has helped them and how poorly he has behaved in office. It will only take about 44,000 Trump voters in those 3 states to change their mind, or that combined with more young and ethnic Democrats thinking they can better relate to the Democratic candidate in 2020 than they did to Hillary, and coming out instead of staying home.

Trump likely only needs 46% of the national popular vote to win again. Knowing this, no Democrat can be complacent that Mussolini won't deceive the voters again with his powerful personality (and his 9-4 score that's better than all other candidates).

[David Horn]

(11-09-2019, 07:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

David's point is well-taken. The Democrats would lose even more voters if they refuse to take action on such violations of ethics in office. To do so is to admit that Trump can get away with anything, which sets a bad precedent to say the least. It is their duty to impeach, whether some voters like it or not.

Impeachment may be shoring up Trump's base in white-majority-low education-working class states including crucial PA, WI and MI. He seems to have been further behind there before now. If this sticks, then the Democrats are in trouble. This may be temporary though, as voters there remember again how little Trump has helped them and how poorly he has behaved in office. It will only take about 44,000 Trump voters in those 3 states to change their mind, or that combined with more young and ethnic Democrats thinking they can better relate to the Democratic candidate in 2020 than they did to Hillary, and coming out instead of staying home.

Trump likely only needs 46% of the national popular vote to win again. Knowing this, no Democrat can be complacent that Mussolini won't deceive the voters again with his powerful personality (and his 9-4 score that's better than all other candidates).

I was around for the Nixon debacle, and this smells a lot like that -- only worse.  Nothing will alter the mindset of the True Trumpers; independents, on the other hand, are in play.  Do we know with any degree of certainly, how that group will split if the impeachment goes through?  No we don't.  We can be almost certain that the GOP-controlled Senate will give him a free pass.  At that point, it's up to the Dems to make that a campaign issue against the entire party.  

Winning the Presidency is inadequate this time.  It's all-in or nothing.

[pbrower2a]

(11-10-2019, 10:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 07:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

David's point is well-taken. The Democrats would lose even more voters if they refuse to take action on such violations of ethics in office. To do so is to admit that Trump can get away with anything, which sets a bad precedent to say the least. It is their duty to impeach, whether some voters like it or not.

Impeachment may be shoring up Trump's base in white-majority-low education-working class states including crucial PA, WI and MI. He seems to have been further behind there before now. If this sticks, then the Democrats are in trouble. This may be temporary though, as voters there remember again how little Trump has helped them and how poorly he has behaved in office. It will only take about 44,000 Trump voters in those 3 states to change their mind, or that combined with more young and ethnic Democrats thinking they can better relate to the Democratic candidate in 2020 than they did to Hillary, and coming out instead of staying home.

Trump likely only needs 46% of the national popular vote to win again. Knowing this, no Democrat can be complacent that Mussolini won't deceive the voters again with his powerful personality (and his 9-4 score that's better than all other candidates).

I was around for the Nixon debacle, and this smells a lot like that -- only worse.  Nothing will alter the mindset of the True Trumpers; independents, on the other hand, are in play.  Do we know with any degree of certainly, how that group will split if the impeachment goes through?  No we don't.  We can be almost certain that the GOP-controlled Senate will give him a free pass.  At that point, it's up to the Dems to make that a campaign issue against the entire party.  

Winning the Presidency is inadequate this time.  It's all-in or nothing.

I say much the same. Once the effort to extort political skullduggery from the President of Ukraine, impeachment went from a pipe dream to a necessity. Where does it stop? Could the President offer territory to ensure the win of an election? 

The most fervent supporters of Donald Trump are close to a siege mentality as what passes for moderates flee. As a cause narrows, it often becomes more fanatical in its ideology. 

Republicans today are unlikely to see any long term other than ever-expanding profit and power, with pie-in-the-sky as a promise to those who suffer wholeheartedly for asset owners and the corporate nomenklatura. On the other hand, what can non-Republicans learn from Trump getting away with what he has gotten away with? 

Be completely ruthless, show contempt for anyone not fully with the cause, and lie, cheat, and steal with impunity because the Party will excuse anything with a handsome deal for the complicit. Go ahead and run as a demagogue, for you will get away with it.

[Kinser79]

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

The fact that the Blue posters here can't see the fact that this impeachment debacle is a waste of their political capital is astounding to me.  I also find it hilarious that those who love the Clintons would dare to bring up ethics.  Both are completely devoid of ethics. Chelsea gets a pass only because, as of yet, she remains a private citizen.

But Pelosi isn't Eric the Ignoramus, PBR or even Mr. Horn...she is far more intelligent, not to mention devious, than they are.  My only guess can be is that she expects that if they can drag out their giant nothing burger impeachment which is going no where they may be able to turn off enough independents from Trump to squeak out a victory for Biden or some other appointed candidate.  That is essentially the only way to do it for them.  They can't beat Trump on the economy, on foreign affairs or even ideology (their party's ideology as it exists seems to revolve around creating socialism which is repugnant to Americans and "Orange Man Bad"--in short there is no there there).

Problem is Donald Trump seems to thrive under controversy.  But then again as he said in The Art of the Deal there is no such thing as bad press.

[Classic-Xer]

(11-06-2019, 03:51 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-06-2019, 12:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-05-2019, 10:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-04-2019, 08:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Republicans seem 90% behind Trump these days, but without him fault-lines appear on your side two. But let's take your division and take a look. Right now, moderate Democrats and independents leaning Democratic are leaning more blue. You see that in suburbs who are turning away from Trump and the Republican extremism. There is a fault-line, though, within Democrats between gradualists and whole-hog progressives. The latter are not really extremists, except by comparison to you red-state and red-county guys, who compared to the rest of the developed world are way off on the extreme right; provincial and parochial rednecks and hillbillies at heart. 

But it looks like your "America" red group has about 40% of the vote, with blue moderates about 25% and blue progressives about 25%, with 10% at the most up for grabs. That's just a rough estimate, and these categories are fluid. But a good president, like Obama was, will unite both Democratic factions for the most part and swing the majority of independents along, while Trump will have to settle for about 45% in that case. Rumphead could still win though, because he only needs 46% for an electoral college win if there's a third party candidate that's strong, if voters are suppressed, if big dark money talks, and if Republican cheating and hacking is successful.

Well, I was more of a Rubio supporter than a Trump supporter myself during the primary elections but that didn't stop me from accepting his loss and supporting Trump in the national election. Like I said, there isn't a natural fault line that exists among Republican supporters or it's base these days. Hey, you got some rather weak minded and some uppiity to a fault Republican leaning folks who couldn't handle seeing a colored jerk who was most likely trying to pick a fight with Trump supporters in front of the national camera's getting their ass kicked by hardcore Trump supporters or someone rough around the edges like Trump being their president so to speak.  

Unfortunately, the moderates and independents seem to  have no choice but to go along with those that they're most reliant upon these days. You should pat yourself on the back because they're about the only group of American  people who are largely reliant upon and therefore must go along with blue voters/supporters and their progressive wing these days. I assume that they understand that they won't be reelected for accomplishing little to nothing about the issues that they were elected to address and work with the Republicans to fix. Yes, there still seems to be a bit of a rift at the top between Trump and the remnants of the old beltway Republicans/Rhino's.

I know Republicans are saying that the Democrats are wasting time on impeachment and should be "working with the Republicans" to solve national issues instead. The problem is, Democrats usually can't work with Republicans to solve real issues, because Republican policy is to continue letting those issues fester, and not do anything about them.

The only way Democrats, whether moderate or liberal, will be able to accomplish anything is with a Democratic president and senate. But our constitution makes that very difficult. Hicks and provincials rule our government, because of the constitution crafted to encourage southern states to join the union. And these days, our national political division is stark between the hicks and the city slickers.

National security has never been seen as a waste of time in House or Senate purview. Republicans have usually been successful in using the  debate on national security against Democrats as 'soft on Communism' or 'soft on terrorism'. Today the issue is who is 'soft on corruption at the expense of national security.

This should be easy. National security can fare well when the President simply chooses to do what is right. The President that as a candidate was accused of 'palling' with terrorists signed off on orders to execute a well-planned killing of Osama bin Ladin in full knowledge of the diplomatic consequences. So the President gets the reputation of having a mailed fist under a velvet glove, if only when appropriate. I can think of far worse. The announcement in no way mocks the dead for whimpering or "dying like a dog". An aside: dogs do not put on suicide vests and detonate them.

Congress apportioned funds to Ukraine, and if the President is to sequester those funds, then he had better have compelling cause for so doing (futility, human rights).

I dunno, the Democrats and all their media/ news outlets seem to be pretty soft when it comes to issues relating to their own. I mean, Biden's kid did some how or another manage to make a bunch of money for himself with some Ukrainians and Chinese while his Dad was serving as OUR Vice President and supposedly there serving/ representing OUR national interest. I doubt that you know the number of crooks that I've dealt with or basically screwed over throughout the years.

You know if the Democrats were actually as smart/ consciously aware as they so often claim then the Democrats would be able to quickly understand why the other side is now more able to turn a blind eye to stuff and more able to go straight for their oppositions jugular today. I mean back in the day, the Democrats would have to completely screw up and get the country involved in a large scale war that was unwinnable due to all the limitations and restrictions that they allowed to be placed on them by global/ foreign entities like Korea or Vietnam or sticking with their outdated beliefs associated with the Great Depression for to long that were hampering economic growth, technological innovation and impacting our military capabilities while acting and spending as if American money/ American tax dollars grows on trees/ comes from trees and acting as if change is not necessary. Me, I am all for pulling the plug on the Democratic Party. Right now, there are Republicans who are viewed as being in the same boat as the liberals. What happens to them isn't going to matter to the rest of the Republican base these days?

[Classic-Xer]

(11-13-2019, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

The fact that the Blue posters here can't see the fact that this impeachment debacle is a waste of their political capital is astounding to me.  I also find it hilarious that those who love the Clintons would dare to bring up ethics.  Both are completely devoid of ethics. Chelsea gets a pass only because, as of yet, she remains a private citizen.

But Pelosi isn't Eric the Ignoramus, PBR or even Mr. Horn...she is far more intelligent, not to mention devious, than they are.  My only guess can be is that she expects that if they can drag out their giant nothing burger impeachment which is going no where they may be able to turn off enough independents from Trump to squeak out a victory for Biden or some other appointed candidate.  That is essentially the only way to do it for them.  They can't beat Trump on the economy, on foreign affairs or even ideology (their party's ideology as it exists seems to revolve around creating socialism which is repugnant to Americans and "Orange Man Bad"--in short there is no there there).

Problem is Donald Trump seems to thrive under controversy.  But then again as he said in The Art of the Deal there is no such thing as bad press.

Yes, she's devious woman but she's also seems to be vulnerable when under pressure. What are the liberals going to do when they find out that the other side doesn't view woman as incapable as they claim and actually are more open to woman being directly engaged and treated as an equal and are raising/teaching their women to directly compete/ hold their own with men these days. Yes, the numb skulls who post here are pretty clueless and severely lacking in knowledge of the more reddish folks that they're always lying about/ spreading lies about these days.

[Hintergrund]

What did her daughter say? "She’ll cut your head off and you won’t even know you’re bleeding". Is that the alternative to the Trumps of the world?

[Eric the Green]

(11-14-2019, 01:44 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-13-2019, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

The fact that the Blue posters here can't see the fact that this impeachment debacle is a waste of their political capital is astounding to me.  I also find it hilarious that those who love the Clintons would dare to bring up ethics.  Both are completely devoid of ethics. Chelsea gets a pass only because, as of yet, she remains a private citizen.

But Pelosi isn't Eric the Ignoramus, PBR or even Mr. Horn...she is far more intelligent, not to mention devious, than they are.  My only guess can be is that she expects that if they can drag out their giant nothing burger impeachment which is going no where they may be able to turn off enough independents from Trump to squeak out a victory for Biden or some other appointed candidate.  That is essentially the only way to do it for them.  They can't beat Trump on the economy, on foreign affairs or even ideology (their party's ideology as it exists seems to revolve around creating socialism which is repugnant to Americans and "Orange Man Bad"--in short there is no there there).

Problem is Donald Trump seems to thrive under controversy.  But then again as he said in The Art of the Deal there is no such thing as bad press.

Yes, she's devious woman but she's also seems to be vulnerable when under pressure. What are the liberals going to do when they find out that the other side doesn't view woman as incapable as they claim and actually are more open to woman being directly engaged and treated as an equal and are raising/teaching their women to directly compete/ hold their own with men these days. Yes, the numb skulls who post here are pretty clueless and severely lacking in knowledge of the more reddish folks that they're always lying about/ spreading lies about these days.

Do you have a woman in mind who could beat the blues? David Horn, I think it was, mentioned Nikki Haley. I can see the appeal. I don't think she can win according to my method, though. Who do you have in mind, if anyone?

[pbrower2a]

(11-09-2019, 07:11 PM)Anthony Wrote: The impeachment campaign is making it less likely for the Democrats to win in 2020.  It's a dead turn-off for swing voters, who are as powerful as ever.

Besides, to quote a line from Godfather 2, there will be no way, Michael - no way that 20 Republicans will cross the aisle and vote to remove Trump from office.

Impeachment, even if ineffective, is now a necessity. Even if President Trump avoids removal, he will be disgraced. If Sarah Palin said that President Obama 'pals' with terrorists, we liberals can say that President Trump 'pals' with gangsters. The difference? Sarah Palin was wrong. 

Character matters greatly in leaders, and that means telling the truth when such can be embarrassing, not using illicit shortcuts to achieve one's ends, and not taking stuff (physical or intangible) that is not ours to take even if we are in need or have overpowering craving -- and not going along with people who do such things. Truth may be inconvenient, but what else do we have? 

We Americans have often found that if we are to sleep in any high-school classes, then we can most safely do so in civics classes that are inherently boring. We don't get as much of a lesson the man whom Sarah Palin mocked as "a Professor of Constitutional Law" as we do from a shyster businessman who does almost everything wrong. That "Professor of Constitutional Law" made comparatively few mistakes, and he did sign off on the underworld-style hit on Osama bin Laden -- before congratulating the CIA for locating him  on behalf of Seal Team 6 for whacking him.   

Whether Trump is convicted and removed or not, we are learning the limits to power, the relevance of character, and the necessity of the rule of law, the separation of powers, and checks and balances.

[Kinser79]

PBR are you naturally clueless or do you have to work at it? Impeachment, if it fails, and it will fail, disgraces the Democrats not the President. Or did you learn nothing from the Clintons at all? If anything as the Impeachment drags out and more and more of it is feels and hearsay the more and more it looks like the President will win by a landslide this time round.

But feel free to continue with your delusions.

[pbrower2a]

(11-16-2019, 06:44 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: PBR are you naturally clueless or do you have to work at it?  Impeachment, if it fails, and it will fail, disgraces the Democrats not the President.  Or did you learn nothing from the Clintons at all?  If anything as the Impeachment drags out and more and more of it is feels and hearsay the more and more it looks like the President will win by a landslide this time round.

But feel free to continue with your delusions.

Clueless? I have never attached myself to any totalitarian cause or personality. 

Eric Hoffer, in his The True Believer, explained that some people  are in need of an ideology that answers all questions, and then some. The answer is to lie, cheat, steal, torture, and even murder in the name of that ideology or cause. When that cause fails, the victor wins over the True Believer easily. 

As he put it, "The opposite of a raging fascist is not a raging communist. The opposite of a raging fascist is a sober liberal".

It is hard to see what ISIS has to offer a racist neo-Nazi, but neo-Nazis have gone to ISIS. Maybe it is the excitement of lying, cheating, stealing, torturing, raping, and murdering. Many defeated members of Saddam Hussein's secular Baath-fascist cult found a gaping hole in their lives when Saddam Hussein was defeated. They went to the perverse form of Islamic fascism in the form of ISIS.

It was highly advantageous to the Soviet Union that the True Believers in fascistic causes such as the Romanian Iron Guard, the Hungarian Arrow Cross, the Slovak Hlinka Guard, and the Nazified Wehrmacht, left with no meaning once their idols were defeated, could easily attach to Communism to be brutal enforcers of Soviet overlords. They could accept the catechism easily because they believed in little -- certainly not in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for the whole of Humanity, not in the responsibility of one person to another, and probably not in love or culture. But before that the Nazis and fascists attracted renegade socialists who were too fanatical for the mainstream, and even Communists. 

I know what you used to be, and it was ugly. You are as nasty toward me in defending Donald Quisling Trump as you were in defending someone far worse. A hint: his original surname was "Dzhugashvili". 

As an adult I have gone between center-left and center-right. I have consistently shown contempt for extremism of any kind.

Fanaticism shows the absence of principle.

[Eric the Green]

Would most Republicans surrender democracy if that means keeping their guns, low taxes and abortion laws? You bet they would. The impeachment proceedings and the opposition by the Trump base to them are proof of this.

[Classic-Xer]

(11-17-2019, 03:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-16-2019, 06:44 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: PBR are you naturally clueless or do you have to work at it?  Impeachment, if it fails, and it will fail, disgraces the Democrats not the President.  Or did you learn nothing from the Clintons at all?  If anything as the Impeachment drags out and more and more of it is feels and hearsay the more and more it looks like the President will win by a landslide this time round.

But feel free to continue with your delusions.

Clueless? I have never attached myself to any totalitarian cause or personality. 

Eric Hoffer, in his The True Believer, explained that some people  are in need of an ideology that answers all questions, and then some. The answer is to lie, cheat, steal, torture, and even murder in the name of that ideology or cause. When that cause fails, the victor wins over the True Believer easily. 

As he put it, "The opposite of a raging fascist is not a raging communist. The opposite of a raging fascist is a sober liberal".

It is hard to see what ISIS has to offer a racist neo-Nazi, but neo-Nazis have gone to ISIS. Maybe it is the excitement of lying, cheating, stealing, torturing, raping, and murdering. Many defeated members of Saddam Hussein's secular Baath-fascist cult found a gaping hole in their lives when Saddam Hussein was defeated. They went to the perverse form of Islamic fascism in the form of ISIS.

It was highly advantageous to the Soviet Union that the True Believers in fascistic causes such as the Romanian Iron Guard, the Hungarian Arrow Cross, the Slovak Hlinka Guard, and the Nazified Wehrmacht, left with no meaning once their idols were defeated, could easily attach to Communism to be brutal enforcers of Soviet overlords. They could accept the catechism easily because they believed in little -- certainly not in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for the whole of Humanity, not in the responsibility of one person to another, and probably not in love or culture. But before that the Nazis and fascists attracted renegade socialists who were too fanatical for the mainstream, and even Communists. 

I know what you used to be, and it was ugly. You are as nasty toward me in defending Donald Quisling Trump as you were in defending someone far worse. A hint: his original surname was "Dzhugashvili". 

As an adult I have gone between center-left and center-right. I have consistently shown contempt for extremism of any kind.

Fanaticism shows the absence of principle.

Fortunately, you haven't been given the opportunity to do so yet. I've been a center right my entire adult life.

[Anthony '58]

(11-16-2019, 06:44 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: PBR are you naturally clueless or do you have to work at it?  Impeachment, if it fails, and it will fail, disgraces the Democrats not the President.  Or did you learn nothing from the Clintons at all?  If anything as the Impeachment drags out and more and more of it is feels and hearsay the more and more it looks like the President will win by a landslide this time round.

But feel free to continue with your delusions.

If one observes the textbook definition of a landslide, which is the loser neglecting to reach the halfway mark (135) of the total necessary for election (270), then I would say that the Detroit Tigers, who finished 47-114 in the just-completed baseball season, have a better chance of winning the 2020 World Series than Donald Trump has of winning the 2020 election by a landslide.

[Classic-Xer]

(11-18-2019, 03:45 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Would most Republicans surrender democracy if that means keeping their guns, low taxes and abortion laws? You bet they would. The impeachment proceedings and the opposition by the Trump base to them are proof of this.

I don't think so. I think we value our right to vote and directly participate in the political process as much as we value our gun rights, our property rights, our wealth and value life in general.