Who are you voting for in 2016?

[Kinser79]

(05-14-2016, 04:15 PM)Odin Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:07 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: even being complemented on being attractive.

Gee, where I come from (not the most progressive place in the world) complimenting random women about how attractive they are makes you a creep.

So expression of normal heterosexual interests in females is now creepy. Good to know.

[Kinser79]

(05-14-2016, 04:20 PM)TnT Wrote: Just for the sake of argument, if society evolved somehow so that a large fraction of the folks began to think that complimenting someone is too forward or too intrusive or something, then the civil thing to do would be to dial it back.  However, I don't think we are anywhere near such.  No doubt, someplace on the InterWebs, there's a woman shrieking about being complimented.  Doesn't mean it's really an issue though.  I'll wait for more evidence.

Actually we already are at that point. Have been for about half a decade now. Or have you not kept up with intersectional feminism?

The end result is that retreat is the wrong course of action. These very people I complain of will not be satisfied until they control all speech, and if they are right thought--thankfully they are wrong. The end result of course is that the US will become one of those countries where people shoot each other over politics because in societies where people don't talk about politics they end up shooting each other over politics.

[TnT]

(05-14-2016, 04:20 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:15 PM)Odin Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:07 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: even being complemented on being attractive.

Gee, where I come from (not the most progressive place in the world) complimenting random women about how attractive they are makes you a creep.

So expression of normal heterosexual interests in females is now creepy.  Good to know.

If you dwell on the word "random" I agree.  That can indeed be creepy.

However, in the normal course of events, with someone with whom you are acquainted, a tasteful compliment is fine.  I try to stay away from comments like "Wow, you've really got a nice tight a**."  On the other hand, "You look really great today." seems to be received well.

Christ on a crutch!  Is there no sense of nuance, decorum, in such issues?

[Odin]

(05-14-2016, 04:20 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:15 PM)Odin Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:07 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: even being complemented on being attractive.

Gee, where I come from (not the most progressive place in the world) complimenting random women about how attractive they are makes you a creep.

So expression of normal heterosexual interests in females is now creepy.  Good to know.

I grew up in fairly conservative rural NW Minnesota, this isn't some recent invention of mythical college SJWs.

[Odin]

(05-14-2016, 04:26 PM)TnT Wrote: If you dwell on the word "random" I agree.  That can indeed be creepy.

However, in the normal course of events, with someone with whom you are acquainted, a tasteful compliment is fine.  I try to stay away from comments like "Wow, you've really got a nice tight a**."  On the other hand, "You look really great today." seems to be received well.

Christ on a crutch!  Is there no sense of nuance, decorum, in such issues?

These "cultural libertarians" think things like politeness, decorum, and basic social graces is "oppressive censorship" and they have a right to say whatever goes through their mind completely unfiltered. IMO it represents the "let it all hang out" element of the last 2T taken to it's absurd logical conclusion.

[TnT]

(05-14-2016, 04:24 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:20 PM)TnT Wrote: Just for the sake of argument, if society evolved somehow so that a large fraction of the folks began to think that complimenting someone is too forward or too intrusive or something, then the civil thing to do would be to dial it back.  However, I don't think we are anywhere near such.  No doubt, someplace on the InterWebs, there's a woman shrieking about being complimented.  Doesn't mean it's really an issue though.  I'll wait for more evidence.

Actually we already are at that point.  Have been for about half a decade now.  Or have you not kept up with intersectional feminism?

The end result is that retreat is the wrong course of action.  These very people I complain of will not be satisfied until they control all speech, and if they are right thought--thankfully they are wrong.  The end result of course is that the US will become one of those countries where people shoot each other over politics because in societies where people don't talk about politics they end up shooting each other over politics.

Not to get too competitive, but I think I make rounds in a VERY diverse group of folks.  Very diverse. What do you mean by "intersectional?"

I'm around folks  throughout the full socio-economic strata, most cultures, most age groups.

I understand that there are fringe groups of feminists and others, but I seldom run into any of them.  One of these folks hiked with a bunch of us on a hike 4-5 years ago, and she simply came across as a pinched, unhappy, self-victimized person.  I've simply NOT run into whole movements of people like her.

[TnT]

(05-14-2016, 04:29 PM)Odin Wrote: These "cultural libertarians" think things like politeness, decorum, and basic social graces is "oppressive censorship" and they have a right to say whatever goes through their mind completely unfiltered. IMO it represents the "let it all hang out" element of the last 2T taken to it's absurd logical conclusion.

Really?  Where do you run into these folks? Like I said above, I'm pretty much out "amongst 'em" every day in my work and in other activities, and I've certainly not lived a sheltered life.

I just don't run into this stuff on a day-to-day basis.

[Odin]

(05-14-2016, 04:36 PM)TnT Wrote:

(05-14-2016, 04:29 PM)Odin Wrote: These "cultural libertarians" think things like politeness, decorum, and basic social graces is "oppressive censorship" and they have a right to say whatever goes through their mind completely unfiltered. IMO it represents the "let it all hang out" element of the last 2T taken to it's absurd logical conclusion.

Really?  Where do you run into these folks? Like I said above, I'm pretty much out "amongst 'em" every day in my work and in other activities, and I've certainly not lived a sheltered life.

I just don't run into this stuff on a day-to-day basis.

It's because they are really not very common, they just happen to have delusions that most people secretly agree with them but are too afraid of the mythical "PC police" to say so. A lot of them are unsociable techie types who blame Feminism for not being able to get a girlfriend and engage in online harassment campaigns against women who dare offend them.

[TnT]

I guess I misunderstood.  So these are guys who are claiming vicitm-hood because they can't socialize with women, and are blaming it on the PC Police?

I guess this exactly fits my sense of what is going on.  It's THEIR problem, not PC being a problem.

[TnT]

Living in Mom's basement playing games doesn't turn one into much of a social butterfly.

[Odin]

(05-14-2016, 04:55 PM)TnT Wrote: I guess I misunderstood.  So these are guys who are claiming vicitm-hood because they can't socialize with women, and are blaming it on the PC Police?

I guess this exactly fits my sense of what is going on.  It's THEIR problem, not PC being a problem.

Pretty much, yeah.

Oh and a funny relevant blog post I ran into:

Men oppressed by feminists telling them that maybe they shouldn’t constantly ogle women.

[Bronco80]

For those that remember my take, I'm obviously on Team Odin here.  The only thing I'd briefly add is that the MRA gang doesn't arise in a vacuum.  There are longstanding societal structures in place that cue to boys and young men that make them feel that they should be privileged in getting all their desires without concern for the women in question.  Speaking out against that can be annoying, but helps to foster awareness.

EDIT: Odin's last link covers a lot of what I'm getting at.

[Odin]

(05-14-2016, 05:03 PM)Bronco80 Wrote: For those that remember my take, I'm obviously on Team Odin here.  The only thing I'd briefly add is that the MRA gang doesn't arise in a vacuum.  There are longstanding societal structures in place that cue to boys and young men that make them feel that they should be privileged in getting all their desires without concern for the women in question.  Speaking out against that can be annoying, but helps to foster awareness.

EDIT: Odin's last link covers a lot of what I'm getting at.

Yeah, these people are basically:

"Hey, girl, nice ass!"

"get away from me asshole"

"why are you so easily offended???"

EDIT: Dan, you might want to update the word filter, because it doesn't catch "asshole".

[TnT]

(05-14-2016, 05:03 PM)Bronco80 Wrote: For those that remember my take, I'm obviously on Team Odin here.  The only thing I'd briefly add is that the MRA gang doesn't arise in a vacuum.  There are longstanding societal structures in place that cue to boys and young men that make them feel that they should be privileged in getting all their desires without concern for the women in question.  Speaking out against that can be annoying, but helps to foster awareness.

EDIT: Odin's last link covers a lot of what I'm getting at.

Well yeah.  Wouldn't you think that on a HISTORY discussion site, that consideration of the path we humans have taken over the centuries would count for something?

My mother was not eligible to vote in this country at one time.  That hasn't been THAT long ago!  My grandmothers spent most of their lives ineligible to vote..  In the 1950's when I was a kid, women, especially married women were still essentially chattels.  I remember how it was, what happened and how it is now.

When one group has had it their way for millenia, and things change, and it's no longer rational to have it that way, as men have had it, doesn't it make sense to dial it back a bit, and give some empathy to those moving up the ranks?

[Odin]

Here is a hilarious example of how some of these "anti-feminist" losers think.





LMAO. And they wonder why nobody wants to date them...

[TnT]

A little something from Slate about some of our brethren:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/201...ogyny.html

Chapters of the Kappa Sigma fraternity have been exceptional hotbeds for language that would appall most decent human beings. At Stanford, Kappa Sigma member (and now Snapchat CEO) Evan Spiegel sent homophobic emails that recounted peeing on women, joked about Thomas Jefferson “get[ting] some” with Sally Hemmings, and told fellow Kappa Sigma members to “have some girl put your large kappa sigma dick down her throat.” Another Kappa Sigma member, from the University of Southern California, sent an email encouraging his compatriots to perpetrate sexual assault against “targets” who “aren’t actual people like us men.” An email leaked from the Kappa Sigma chapter at the University of Maryland contained repeated racial slurs and the command “erect, assert, and insert, and above all else, fuck consent.”


I'm guess that voting age Kappa Sigs will vote for Trump?

[Kinser79]

(05-14-2016, 04:26 PM)TnT Wrote: If you dwell on the word "random" I agree.  That can indeed be creepy.

In the case of random come-ons yes it is creepy. However, we are speaking of these people being opposed to come-ons in social situations where they should be expected.

Quote:However, in the normal course of events, with someone with whom you are acquainted, a tasteful compliment is fine.  I try to stay away from comments like "Wow, you've really got a nice tight a**."  On the other hand, "You look really great today." seems to be received well.

Intersectional feminists would call both to be "problematic" and "sexist". In fact they would likely say that the latter is worse because it isn't obvious. That being said, having been told myself that I have "a great ass" I went with it, and simply told the guy I had a boyfriend already. Usually makes the "creep" buzz right off. But honestly I don't even think that person was being creepy but rather expressing normal homosexual interest.

Quote:Christ on a crutch!  Is there no sense of nuance, decorum, in such issues?

No there is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA0aKjY8K50

(05-14-2016, 04:31 PM)TnT Wrote: Not to get too competitive, but I think I make rounds in a VERY diverse group of folks.  Very diverse. What do you mean by "intersectional?"

I'm by no means not the one to accuse you of living in a cave. That being said even making the rounds of very diverse groups of people it is likely you will not run into these ideologues. A great number of feminists are in fact well meaning people. Naive to be sure but well meaning.

As to intersectionality it is the concept within feminist ideology that interlocking systems of oppression work on the individual level to be even more oppressive to specific groups of people than other groups of people. Of course this completely ignores the fact that most people do not see themselves as belonging to these groups--in fact do not care about these groups even if they see themselves as belonging to them because most normal people see themselves as individuals first and whatever identity they have second (if at all).

As such an intersectional feminist would say that a black gay trans-woman who is rich is more oppressed than a poor cis straight white male. The fact of the matter is that the black gay trans-woman by virtue of being rich is less oppressed because society operates on a class dynamic that is economic in origin rather than any other identity possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Quote:I understand that there are fringe groups of feminists and others, but I seldom run into any of them.  One of these folks hiked with a bunch of us on a hike 4-5 years ago, and she simply came across as a pinched, unhappy, self-victimized person.  I've simply NOT run into whole movements of people like her.

They are pinched, unhappy, self-victimized people and yes there are such movements. These criticisms do not arise in a vacuum you know.

I will also be happy to note that like Odin I can find extremists with his views too. In fact there are more of them.

[Anthony '58]

If Hillary wins on the Democratic side, I will be voting for Hillary.

If Bernie Sanders wins on the Democratic side, I will be voting for Trump.

And if Trump gets a walkover, after Hillary wins the Democratic nod but is then forced to pull out of the race a la Bob Torricelli in the New Jersey Senate race in 2002 ... ?

[Cynic Hero '86]

PC totalitarianism is essentially about sensitive do-gooders trying to tell the rest of us how to live.

[Odin]

Vox: Read every horrible thing Donald Trump has said about women and tell me he's not a sexist