The Crisis That Never Ended

[TheNomad]

Trying to be brief, I read an article that referenced the stimulus packages after 2001..... and the one after 2008..... and now this one.

Did this shit really ever end?  I keep trying to talk about the idea so many people never even went back to work after 2008.  Their jobs didn't exist anymore.  They fell off the tabs of Unemployment Benefits and simply stopped being counted.  But since then, ppl have lived in their vehicles while maintaining full-time job(s) or just moved in with family and never became independent again.  Or, became homeless and never got "back on their feet".

We should not forget all this when trying to examine WHEN did this "Crisis" begin anyway?  It can inform us of where we are IN the Crisis, thus, when it might end.

2008 - 2028?  That seems to be what Strauss is purveying.  I catch him every now and then with interviews.  He is currently working on "The First Turning" book.  I don't know if he has a co-author.

If so, we are smack in the middle if not past the middle.

But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

Something tells me even aware individuals like HERE, we are not counting this correctly.  As if the Unraveling had been happening for 3 decades or more.  

Off the cuff without thinking too much, I want to say the Unraveling began around the 90s.  Even The 4th Turning places it there.  If so, that totally fits..... with Crisis in 2008 and now this crap. 

Can we get to a High in 8 years?  Of course, the authors say, every 4th Turning could spell total disaster.  It's not made in stone.

[beechnut79]

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Trying to be brief, I read an article that referenced the stimulus packages after 2001..... and the one after 2008..... and now this one.

Did this shit really ever end?  I keep trying to talk about the idea so many people never even went back to work after 2008.  Their jobs didn't exist anymore.  They fell off the tabs of Unemployment Benefits and simply stopped being counted.  But since then, ppl have lived in their vehicles while maintaining full-time job(s) or just moved in with family and never became independent again.  Or, became homeless and never got "back on their feet".

We should not forget all this when trying to examine WHEN did this "Crisis" begin anyway?  It can inform us of where we are IN the Crisis, thus, when it might end.

2008 - 2028?  That seems to be what Strauss is purveying.  I catch him every now and then with interviews.  He is currently working on "The First Turning" book.  I don't know if he has a co-author.

If so, we are smack in the middle if not past the middle.

But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

Something tells me even aware individuals like HERE, we are not counting this correctly.  As if the Unraveling had been happening for 3 decades or more.  

Off the cuff without thinking too much, I want to say the Unraveling began around the 90s.  Even The 4th Turning places it there.  If so, that totally fits..... with Crisis in 2008 and now this crap. 

Can we get to a High in 8 years?  Of course, the authors say, every 4th Turning could spell total disaster.  It's not made in stone.

Strauss died in 2007; Neil Howe is still active and is no doubt who you are referring to.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-25-2020, 09:08 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: Strauss died in 2007; Neil Howe is still active and is no doubt who you are referring to.

He keeps making these tiny little itty bitty errors. All you have to do is turn it around 180 degrees and you have it right.

[TheNomad]

(03-25-2020, 09:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-25-2020, 09:08 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: Strauss died in 2007; Neil Howe is still active and is no doubt who you are referring to.

He keeps making these tiny little itty bitty errors.  All you have to do is turn it around 180 degrees and you have it right.  

It's petty to try and assault someone for a simple error in name. It makes you look silly, not me.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Trying to be brief, I read an article that referenced the stimulus packages after 2001..... and the one after 2008..... and now this one.

Did this shit really ever end?  I keep trying to talk about the idea so many people never even went back to work after 2008.  Their jobs didn't exist anymore.  They fell off the tabs of Unemployment Benefits and simply stopped being counted.  But since then, ppl have lived in their vehicles while maintaining full-time job(s) or just moved in with family and never became independent again.  Or, became homeless and never got "back on their feet".

We should not forget all this when trying to examine WHEN did this "Crisis" begin anyway?  It can inform us of where we are IN the Crisis, thus, when it might end.

2008 - 2028?  That seems to be what Strauss is purveying.  I catch him every now and then with interviews.  He is currently working on "The First Turning" book.  I don't know if he has a co-author.

If so, we are smack in the middle if not past the middle.

But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

Something tells me even aware individuals like HERE, we are not counting this correctly.  As if the Unraveling had been happening for 3 decades or more.  

Off the cuff without thinking too much, I want to say the Unraveling began around the 90s.  Even The 4th Turning places it there.  If so, that totally fits..... with Crisis in 2008 and now this crap. 

Can we get to a High in 8 years?  Of course, the authors say, every 4th Turning could spell total disaster.  It's not made in stone.

I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

To me, 2008 is not a long time ago, but for younger people it probably is. Myself, I think the 21st century didn't really begin. With luck, it's beginning now.

[TheNomad]

(03-26-2020, 01:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Trying to be brief, I read an article that referenced the stimulus packages after 2001..... and the one after 2008..... and now this one.

Did this shit really ever end?  I keep trying to talk about the idea so many people never even went back to work after 2008.  Their jobs didn't exist anymore.  They fell off the tabs of Unemployment Benefits and simply stopped being counted.  But since then, ppl have lived in their vehicles while maintaining full-time job(s) or just moved in with family and never became independent again.  Or, became homeless and never got "back on their feet".

We should not forget all this when trying to examine WHEN did this "Crisis" begin anyway?  It can inform us of where we are IN the Crisis, thus, when it might end.

2008 - 2028?  That seems to be what Strauss is purveying.  I catch him every now and then with interviews.  He is currently working on "The First Turning" book.  I don't know if he has a co-author.

If so, we are smack in the middle if not past the middle.

But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

Something tells me even aware individuals like HERE, we are not counting this correctly.  As if the Unraveling had been happening for 3 decades or more.  

Off the cuff without thinking too much, I want to say the Unraveling began around the 90s.  Even The 4th Turning places it there.  If so, that totally fits..... with Crisis in 2008 and now this crap. 

Can we get to a High in 8 years?  Of course, the authors say, every 4th Turning could spell total disaster.  It's not made in stone.

I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

To me, 2008 is not a long time ago, but for younger people it probably is. Myself, I think the 21st century didn't really begin. With luck, it's beginning now.

By 21st Century I assume you mean "New Age" metaphorically.  Well, what about the Internet?  That is a thing of turn of the century when everyone began using it.  No one had an email address until about end of the 90s, then by 10 years later, everyone had that, a phone, a pre social media presence on the Internet, and soon after, everything we now know as modern comes from broadband and cellular connection and fiber optics.  From all-in-one com devices to handy screens to digital media and the "video age".

That happened in just over a decade.

And, if you say unraveling began in 1984, and using a generic 20yr time frame, that's 2004... 2005 begins Crisis?  That's about right.

Now, adjust to take 2008 into consideration, the idea Artists began being born I can't say any earlier than that taking Hero bracket into consideration.  It's all fine-tuning then.

If Artist is a child during Crisis and sheltered, and grows up remembering it but not necessarily actively participating.  So, Artist born in 2005??  But the time the first is 15yo, the Crisis is in full swing (2020). 

Whatever it is, the authors' model is very helpful.  Crisis ends by end of this decade or sooner.  Still j/c that just sucks to have that much more.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-26-2020, 01:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

I know it doesn't match the books, but I think the Awakening proper ended about the time Nixon hit office, or perhaps the Democratic convention. In the 1970 were a bunch of failures: Watergate, the Fall of Saigon, the Oil and Hostage crises, the National Malaise. The feeling that we could tax and spend our way out of anything was gone. The feeling that we wanted to tackle the big problems was going. Things had begun to unravel. I might not have hit fully until about 1984, but it was there sooner.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Can we get to a High in 8 years?  Of course, the authors say, every 4th Turning could spell total disaster.  It's not made in stone.

S&H originally did not see a progressive bias in the theory.  They saw it as neither red nor blue.  I know I started to see a Whig bias fairly early, that getting rid of kings, slaves and fascists showed an arrow of progress.  A little after that,  S&H started to turn their views of the Crises darker.  After all, they were somewhat conservative.  Progressive might be bad, right?

But certainly we might get through a Crisis without a Regeneracy, without adopting the new values wholesale.  I had about given up on a large enough Trigger coming along while we were in the Crisis configuration.  Then the Coronavirus came along, (why am I hearing the song ‘Along came John’ playing through my head?) and looks to just about force it.  I don’t see a no Regeneracy Crisis happening now.

You seem to be bouncing between science and the Trump fantasy.  It is like your heart is red but your mind is blue.  You want to relax around Trump saying the flu will pass and we will be relaxing isolation by Easter, but your head knows better.

I have to stick with the science.

I would have to say the Crisis will begin to pass when we develop a vaccine, an effective therapy, or get in the habit of living everyday life while keeping an effective isolation in place.  Then we will have a few conferences to strengthen the World Health Organization and the global warming treaties.  In short, pressure governments to act on science rather than their ideological fantasies.  It is almost like Mother Nature herself had got sick of Fox News and decided to get drastic about it.  I can almost see her watching TV and getting ticked.  A dedication to the new values is not guaranteed, but likely this crises given that the virus explodes if you don’t isolate.  Eight years looks quite enough time to do this.

[Warren Dew]

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

I'm coming around to the idea that the crisis period started in 2008.  I think there's a difference between the crisis period, a two decade turning, and the actual crisis, which is usually a war that lasts about half a decade - the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World War Two.

I'm not sure the actual crisis can be something other than a war.  I'm also skeptical about Covid-19 being the actual crisis, as I don't see how it can last for 5 years.  It might last for 1 year, but I don't think that's long enough for people to forget their political differences - that is, for a true regeneracy.

In addition, I think a crisis requires substantial destruction among the economic and political elites.  I'm not seeing how the Covid-19 crisis destroys Google or Facebook or Microsoft.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-26-2020, 12:29 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

I'm coming around to the idea that the crisis period started in 2008.  I think there's a difference between the crisis period, a two decade turning, and the actual crisis, which is usually a war that lasts about half a decade - the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World War Two.

I'm not sure the actual crisis can be something other than a war.  I'm also skeptical about Covid-19 being the actual crisis, as I don't see how it can last for 5 years.  It might last for 1 year, but I don't think that's long enough for people to forget their political differences - that is, for a true regeneracy.

In addition, I think a crisis requires substantial destruction among the economic and political elites.  I'm not seeing how the Covid-19 crisis destroys Google or Facebook or Microsoft.

I doubt it.  I think there are a legit nominee for a false Trigger and Regeneracy, and a far less legit one.

September 11 generated a big Trigger style change compatible with Pearl Harbor, the more so as we were not eager to get involved in the Middle East before then.  Bush 43 did not call for a full mobilization though.  The American people were asked to address the conflict by going shopping.  He was conservative, so he was trying to put conservative values in place. Crises have gone the other way.  They lost the wars involved, did not fully implement the values change.  The bickering between the red and blue continued.  While there was a values change and lessons learned, I label it as a false and failed Regeneracy.

Obama’s administration did open up with a big deal financial crisis and the end of the stay at home against cut and run debate, but he did not punish the elites that caused the crisis in the public’s mind, and he did not win a clear victory with health care.  He got it passed, but with much doubt and no clear consensus.  He did not open up on other fronts of the blue agenda once he lost the majority in both houses of Congress.  Again, he did not end the debate between red and blue.  Much of what was achieved was undone by his successor.  To my mind, this is not even worth calling a false Regeneracy.  There was no clear consensus that the new values were taking over.

Covid-19 does present a legitamate choice between values.  Either you honor what the blue say about science against fantasy, or you die.  I am guessing most will eventually accept the new values.  Trump will eventually be remembered by cycle theory fans along with Buchanan and Hoover, failed presidents that showed that trying to implement the old values led to failure.

Some previous crisis did destroy the political power of various groups of elites.  The royalist colonial imperialists and the agricultural southern land owners were forced into a very big step back.  The Robber Barrons after the last crisis survived quite well.  While a few of the elite lost power in the stock crash, those who survived survived well without major changes in the style or amount of influence they claimed.  Granted, FDR empowered the people, the labor unions, and established benefits.  The government was on the side of the people rather than the Robber Barons through the Progressive Era.  It wasn’t until the Conservative Era that the Robber Barons started to recover fully, weakening the people’s attempt to get their share of the wealth, shipping jobs abroad, and increasing the division of wealth.  It took a while, but eventually the Robber Barons did quite well.

I do anticipate we will have to return to Tax and Spend to pay for all the emergency measures Covid-19 is forcing.  I do anticipate that to pay for Covid-19, renewable energy, bridges and global warming the Robber Barons and the division of wealth are going to take a big hit.  If we are going to start solving problems again, if big government acknowledges science and recognizes that certain problems exist and have to be solved, we cannot afford to have so much wealth siphoned out of the economy.

So I wouldn’t see the Crisis so much as destroying companies, but rather changing the power of the Robber Barons to influence government.  It would be a tidal shift in class warfare.  They will have more trouble establishing their false reality to dupe the majority into giving them the lion’s share of the wealth.

[Warren Dew]

World War Two destroyed the political and economic elites of Germany, Japan, and China. That left plenty of room for growth that had not been there before the war.

[Bob Butler 54]

I agree that in spite of Progressive Era attempts to siphon wealth to the people of America, the Robber Barons, Capitalists, one percent, elites, or whatever you'd care to call them did well enough. They did better during the Conservative Era. The division of wealth increased. Some lower class people couldn't save. Good jobs went abroad. Other nations had lost in the devastation other nations felt during World War II but had since rebuilt both their factories and their elites.

It doesn't change the take from the rich to give to the poor needs of today.

[sbarrera]

(03-26-2020, 06:24 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-26-2020, 01:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

I know it doesn't match the books, but I think the Awakening proper ended about the time Nixon hit office, or perhaps the Democratic convention.  In the 1970 were a bunch of failures: Watergate, the Fall of Saigon, the Oil and Hostage crises, the National Malaise.  The feeling that we could tax and spend our way out of anything was gone.  The feeling that we wanted to tackle the big problems was going.  Things had begun to unravel.  I might not have hit fully until about 1984, but it was there sooner.

That's Hunter S. Thompson's interpretation.

[David Horn]

(03-26-2020, 09:48 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: World War Two destroyed the political and economic elites of Germany, Japan, and China.  That left plenty of room for growth that had not been there before the war.

The devastation of elites in those countries was not as complete as you seem to think.  Many on the losing side wormed their way into strong post-war positions by being the typically smarmy people they had always been.  Almost all the pre-war industrial giants survived in Japan and Germany.  The Chinese obviously had a complete change of leadership -- and they were on the winning side.

[Eric the Green]

(03-26-2020, 01:32 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(03-26-2020, 01:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Trying to be brief, I read an article that referenced the stimulus packages after 2001..... and the one after 2008..... and now this one.

Did this shit really ever end?  I keep trying to talk about the idea so many people never even went back to work after 2008.  Their jobs didn't exist anymore.  They fell off the tabs of Unemployment Benefits and simply stopped being counted.  But since then, ppl have lived in their vehicles while maintaining full-time job(s) or just moved in with family and never became independent again.  Or, became homeless and never got "back on their feet".

We should not forget all this when trying to examine WHEN did this "Crisis" begin anyway?  It can inform us of where we are IN the Crisis, thus, when it might end.

2008 - 2028?  That seems to be what Strauss is purveying.  I catch him every now and then with interviews.  He is currently working on "The First Turning" book.  I don't know if he has a co-author.

If so, we are smack in the middle if not past the middle.

But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

Something tells me even aware individuals like HERE, we are not counting this correctly.  As if the Unraveling had been happening for 3 decades or more.  

Off the cuff without thinking too much, I want to say the Unraveling began around the 90s.  Even The 4th Turning places it there.  If so, that totally fits..... with Crisis in 2008 and now this crap. 

Can we get to a High in 8 years?  Of course, the authors say, every 4th Turning could spell total disaster.  It's not made in stone.

I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

To me, 2008 is not a long time ago, but for younger people it probably is. Myself, I think the 21st century didn't really begin. With luck, it's beginning now.

By 21st Century I assume you mean "New Age" metaphorically.

I suppose, but what I mean when I say that is mostly about what happened on Dec.12, 2000, when the Supreme Court gave the election to George W Bush. That meant that Reaganomics and militarism along with fundamentalist ideology and attacks on democracy were just going to continue and get worse. That meant that the 21st century was stillborn. Nothing changed; things got worse. Of course, now I also know that Bush had a much higher horoscope score than Gore, so it shows that the US presidential election depends most of all on the personal likability and appeal of the two candidates. I have to admit that Bush appealed to average 'muricans and the silent majority of apple-pie and motherhood. His birthday is even close to the USA's, and in fact his solar degree is the same as America's, much like Calvin Coolidge. Gore may have had somewhat better policies in mind, but he was a ponderous wonk.

Quote:  Well, what about the Internet?  That is a thing of turn of the century when everyone began using it.  No one had an email address until about end of the 90s, then by 10 years later, everyone had that, a phone, a pre social media presence on the Internet, and soon after, everything we now know as modern comes from broadband and cellular connection and fiber optics.  From all-in-one com devices to handy screens to digital media and the "video age".

That happened in just over a decade.

More tech gadgets. To me, that's not a change. Things became more convenient, and new tech problems replaced old ones. Changes are political, social, economic; it's about who has the power. Politics has been on hold at least since 1980. We've had nothing but regression and stalemate, with a nation hypnotized by Reaganomics. 2008 and 2020 punched a temporary hole in it, and we'll see whether this hole fills up or gets bigger.

Quote:And, if you say unraveling began in 1984, and using a generic 20yr time frame, that's 2004... 2005 begins Crisis?  That's about right.

No, because as I pointed out in another post, what is generic is the 84-year saeculum. Some recent turnings, the previous 4T and 1T for example, were shorter than usual. I think it was because of events (and planetary indicators agree). The Battle of the Bulge and the atom bomb ended WWII sooner than it might have ended otherwise. The JFK assassination started the Awakening sooner than it might have started otherwise. That meant a longer 3T, from 1984 to 2008, to make up for these two shorter turnings, and it means the 4T will be a normal length turning instead of shortened like the previous two 4Ts. Normal length, and tending not to get to the point very soon.

Quote:Now, adjust to take 2008 into consideration, the idea Artists began being born I can't say any earlier than that taking Hero bracket into consideration.  It's all fine-tuning then.

If Artist is a child during Crisis and sheltered, and grows up remembering it but not necessarily actively participating.  So, Artist born in 2005??  But the time the first is 15yo, the Crisis is in full swing (2020). 

Whatever it is, the authors' model is very helpful.  Crisis ends by end of this decade or sooner.  Still j/c that just sucks to have that much more.

A lot of things these days suck, including that. End of the decade, it will end. But things will ramp up speed, starting now, and more and more so. By 2025-26 the fog will be gone and we'll see plenty of action.

[pbrower2a]

If Donald Trump has ever had any advantage from the stars and planets, then he may have thrown it away.

[Eric the Green]

(03-26-2020, 06:24 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-26-2020, 01:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

I know it doesn't match the books, but I think the Awakening proper ended about the time Nixon hit office, or perhaps the Democratic convention.  In the 1970 were a bunch of failures: Watergate, the Fall of Saigon, the Oil and Hostage crises, the National Malaise.  The feeling that we could tax and spend our way out of anything was gone.  The feeling that we wanted to tackle the big problems was going.  Things had begun to unravel.  I might not have hit fully until about 1984, but it was there sooner.

It's plausible, and at the time I thought the Awakening had wound down in the 1970s. As I discovered astrology, it made a lot of sense. When I wondered what was supposed to correspond to such a powerful radical and transcendental surge of activism and creative energy as the sixties was, astrology told me it would be an alignment of outer planets. So I looked up where they were in the book that shows this, and there it was. Of course, Pluto was still considered a planet then, and astrologers still consider it so, based on how thoroughly it indicates events. But Uranus and Pluto were indeed aligned in the sixties. Then I wondered, when was the sixties energy at its peak? It must have been when I felt it the strongest. That would have been when the conjunction was exactly aligned. So I looked it up, and the exact date was exactly when I thought it would be, at the end of June, 1966. 

Among the things that happened then, the National Organization for Women was founded on that date, and Stokely Carmichael declared "we want black power!" at the end of a march he and Dr. King led through Mississippi. The psychedelic culture was bursting forth and some of the best music of the period (or ever) was created at that very time.

But, planets are considered to be aligned only within a certain margin of degrees, or orb. When they separate, the alignment is over, and the energy wanes. That happened in around 1970. They had been within orb since about 1962. 

So there was the failure of the uplifting rebirth of idealism from the new assassinations to the Democratic Convention to the election of Nixon, Watergate, and the various kinds of mailaise that set in. Key rock stars died and the love-in festivals lost their lustre.

But the Awakening was not over, not by a long shot. Nixon signed the environmental laws that protected our air and water after the the biggest demonstration in history, Earth Day, in 1970. Consumer laws were passed too, after years of activism by Ralph Nader that had started in 1966. The Vietnam War did end and Vietnam was united, which was a victory, not a defeat, for the Awakening. The women's movement and the gay liberation movement continued and expanded. The anti-nuclear power movement got going in the late 70s. The gas shortage was an opportunity to start moving away from fossil fuels and conserve energy, and President Carter started us on that road in 1977. Although there wasn't another Woodstock, the tradition continued in the Grateful Dead concerts and the rainbow gatherings. The New Age movement brought the human potential and counter-culture trends to a focus and new authors gave it clarity around 1980. The Green Party was founded. Militarism declined because of the Vietnam Syndrome. By the late 1970s the New Left and Green movements that had started in the USA and broken out in France in 1968, along with other electoral trends already in motion, had transformed much of Europe into a democratic socialist paragon of advancement.

There was also a counter-awakening going on, which had started along with the Awakening itself in 1964. This movement was to take the United States of America and other countries in a contrary direction to everything the Awakening pointed toward. The tax revolt started in California in 1978, a cause which former CA governor Ronald Reagan took up enthusiastically. Jonestown discredited leftist religious cults in 1978 and added to the mailaise, but since 1971 Jesus freaks had inspired some hippies to become Christian fundamentalists. In the late 1970s the counter-awakening of traditional religious authority geared up, and the Moral Majority helped put Goldwater's ally Reagan in the White House, along with the help of wealthy power brokers who wanted to repeal the new consumer and environmental laws. Conservatives Thatcher and Kohl joined him in the new right-wing free-market anti-welfare power-trend. Anti-feminist and anti-gay movements appeared. New trends in pop music like Heavy Metal, Punk and New Wave rejected the sensibility of the psychedelic and folk-rock eras and emphasized simplified, blatantly-aggressive noise. So, the counter-awakening was as much a part of the 2T, and arguably more influential, than the Awakening itself. And all these counter-trends and counter-revolutionary ideas were born and were ramped up in the 2T, not in the following 3T when they just became the new normal.

[Eric the Green]

(03-28-2020, 02:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If Donald Trump has ever had any advantage from the stars and planets, then he may have thrown it away.

Well, I'm not so sure. Perhaps, but if 47% still approve of his job performance, as polls now show, he will not be easy for a sometimes-incoherent establishment Democrat to beat.

[Eric the Green]

(03-26-2020, 12:29 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(03-25-2020, 08:24 PM)TheNomad Wrote: But my point being, I find it amazing some are saying "The Crisis" as if it happened last week.  For some, there was no Crisis, for others, there was, for some, The Crisis they have been living for a LONG time.

I'm coming around to the idea that the crisis period started in 2008.  I think there's a difference between the crisis period, a two decade turning, and the actual crisis, which is usually a war that lasts about half a decade - the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World War Two.

I'm not sure the actual crisis can be something other than a war.  I'm also skeptical about Covid-19 being the actual crisis, as I don't see how it can last for 5 years.  It might last for 1 year, but I don't think that's long enough for people to forget their political differences - that is, for a true regeneracy.

In addition, I think a crisis requires substantial destruction among the economic and political elites.  I'm not seeing how the Covid-19 crisis destroys Google or Facebook or Microsoft.

I agree with your points there.

[Eric the Green]

(03-28-2020, 02:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-26-2020, 06:24 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-26-2020, 01:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I accept Strauss and Howe dating in The Fourth Turning that says the unravelling began in 1984. That was the year that Reaganomics was cemented into the national psyche after the early years of his term when there was still much doubt about it and protest against it. 1984 was "morning in America" and all generations "acquiesed in indulgence" according to S&H. Yes, it's Mr. Howe writing the books now. He's good, but he doesn't get involved in discussion forums like Mr. Strauss used to do. Interesting that he died in 2007 and just missed seeing his 4th turning prophecy come true.

I know it doesn't match the books, but I think the Awakening proper ended about the time Nixon hit office, or perhaps the Democratic convention.  In the 1970 were a bunch of failures: Watergate, the Fall of Saigon, the Oil and Hostage crises, the National Malaise.  The feeling that we could tax and spend our way out of anything was gone.  The feeling that we wanted to tackle the big problems was going.  Things had begun to unravel.  I might not have hit fully until about 1984, but it was there sooner.

It's plausible, and at the time I thought the Awakening had wound down in the 1970s. As I discovered astrology, it made a lot of sense. When I wondered what was supposed to correspond to such a powerful radical and transcendental surge of activism and creative energy as the sixties was, astrology told me it would be an alignment of outer planets. So I looked up where they were in the book that shows this, and there it was. Of course, Pluto was still considered a planet then, and astrologers still consider it so, based on how thoroughly it indicates events. But Uranus and Pluto were indeed aligned in the sixties. Then I wondered, when was the sixties energy at its peak? It must have been when I felt it the strongest. That would have been when the conjunction was exactly aligned. So I looked it up, and the exact date was exactly when I thought it would be, at the end of June, 1966. 

Among the things that happened then, the National Organization for Women was founded on that date, and Stokely Carmichael declared "we want black power!" at the end of a march he and Dr. King led through Mississippi. The psychedelic culture was bursting forth and some of the best music of the period (or ever) was created at that very time.

But, planets are considered to be aligned only within a certain margin of degrees, or orb. When they separate, the alignment is over, and the energy wanes. That happened in around 1970. They had been within orb since about 1962. 

So there was the failure of the uplifting rebirth of idealism from the new assassinations to the Democratic Convention to the election of Nixon, Watergate, and the various kinds of mailaise that set in. Key rock stars died and the love-in festivals lost their lustre.

But the Awakening was not over, not by a long shot. Nixon signed the environmental laws that protected our air and water after the the biggest demonstration in history, Earth Day, in 1970. Consumer laws were passed too, after years of activism by Ralph Nader that had started in 1966. The Vietnam War did end and Vietnam was united, which was a victory, not a defeat, for the Awakening. The women's movement and the gay liberation movement continued and expanded. The anti-nuclear power movement got going in the late 70s. The gas shortage was an opportunity to start moving away from fossil fuels and conserve energy, and President Carter started us on that road in 1977. Although there wasn't another Woodstock, the tradition continued in the Grateful Dead concerts and the rainbow gatherings. The New Age movement brought the human potential and counter-culture trends to a focus and new authors gave it clarity around 1980. The Green Party was founded. Militarism declined because of the Vietnam Syndrome. By the late 1970s the New Left and Green movements that had started in the USA and broken out in France in 1968, along with other electoral trends already in motion, had transformed much of Europe into a democratic socialist paragon of advancement.

There was also a counter-awakening going on, which had started along with the Awakening itself in 1964. This movement was to take the United States of America and other countries in a contrary direction to everything the Awakening pointed toward. The tax revolt started in California in 1978, a cause which former CA governor Ronald Reagan took up enthusiastically. Jonestown discredited leftist religious cults in 1978 and added to the mailaise, but since 1971 Jesus freaks had inspired some hippies to become Christian fundamentalists. In the late 1970s the counter-awakening of traditional religious authority geared up, and the Moral Majority helped put Goldwater's ally Reagan in the White House, along with the help of wealthy power brokers who wanted to repeal the new consumer and environmental laws. Conservatives Thatcher and Kohl joined him in the new right-wing free-market anti-welfare power-trend. Anti-feminist and anti-gay movements appeared. New trends in pop music like Heavy Metal, Punk and New Wave rejected the sensibility of the psychedelic and folk-rock eras and emphasized simplified, blatantly-aggressive noise. So, the counter-awakening was as much a part of the 2T, and arguably more influential, than the Awakening itself. And all these counter-trends and counter-revolutionary ideas were born and were ramped up in the 2T, not in the following 3T when they just became the new normal.

These posts have me harking back to the Awakening times, as I so often like to do. Grounds for a new thread!
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...l#pid50881