The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(07-16-2020, 05:02 AM)David Horn Wrote: Except the sides changed, much as they are again today.  Blue collar workers were all-in for Democrats until Reagan.  Now they aren't.  Suburban professionals were all-in for Republicans until Trump.  Now they aren't.  Times change and parties realign.

That's what you and others say and tell each other time and time again, but have the sides really changed as a supporting racism and racist views goes? Yes, the group has changed and the skin color has changed but the dedication to keeping racism alive and separating people by race is still there. I think it's very clear that race doesn't matter to me as much as race matters to you guys these days. I think it's also very clear that you guys are on the modern day version of the Confederate side as well.

The suburban cake eaters ( the never Trump crowd) and the suburban women who lean Republican don't like Trump because Trump ain't their type of politician so to speak. He's to gruff and rough around the edges and says some stuff that's viewed as politically incorrect that upsets some people which makes them feel uneasy and insecure or scared about what others think of them or might do to them these days. Yes, the Republican side still has some pansy people who aren't sure which way the country is going to go at the moment. I agree, the Republican party is becoming more of a middle class oriented party these days and the Republican party hasn't adjusted to its new role very well at this point. The way I see it, the Tea Party is gradually taking over and becoming the dominant force of the party.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-16-2020, 04:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days. You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow. Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

There are a bunch of bad cops who think they can literally get away with murder.  This may not strictly be called Jim Crow, but any time an arm of the government adheres to prejudice and violence and rejects treating the people they are supposed to serve well, you have a problem.  Just because you do not expect the cops to kill yourself, your family, your friends, you do not think it is a problem?  Many do.  If you do not have enough empathy to perceive the problem, that is your lack.

Many folks have objected to the elites and division of wealth under different names.  It is widely accepted as a problem.  Marxism is different in that it proposes the problem cannot be solved peacefully, but that a violent revolution is necessary.  This approach has been rejected, mostly due to the policies of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.  It just works poorly.  Your ideological blindness prevents you from seeing this rejection.  You assume this motivation as a straw man to prevent having to address the real motivation of liberals.

These days, the Boogaloo Bois are the primary organization that advocates the need for violence, for a new revolution or civil war.  Even they carefully avoid Marxist language as it makes for poor public relations.  Sill, the problems Marx so well described are real.  I don’t care whether you call them the Robber Barons, the Military Industrial Complex, the elites, the one percent, or whatever, there are many ways to note that the extreme division of wealth is a problem.

You yourself are obsessed with and advocate violence.  Still, it is violence in favor of the old values.  It is hard to call it Marxism if you are advocating the status quo.  Still, it is not really the status quo.  You do not go on racist rants or advocate the continued division of wealth.  Like the Tea Party, you are generally against the elitist element.  Your ideological blindness prevents you from seeing the real problems with the racist violent police.  This leaves you as an advocate of small government and law and order.  In the first, I would say that the unraveling took us well past the point of diminishing return.  In the latter, I could approve if you could keep law and order while removing the violent racism.

Yes, there may be a few cops like that in the country. I don't think there are enough of them to attack, intimidate, condemn and punish all of them or treat them all like shit these days. The Boogaloo Bois ain't shit compared to Antifa and Black Live Matter and the party who is now in bed with both of them. Bob if you push me or punch or wave a stick or a bottle or anything that could be a weapon, I'm going to down and if the liberal Democrats ( the ones perpetuating and enabling by looking the other way or doing nothing) don't like it or think its wrong then that's to bad. PS. I thought you said (told Dave) the Boogaloo Bois were communist believers. As far as you and the others, you can disagree, deny affiliation, reject and even try to refuse to support it but if you can't then you're pretty fucked and are going to have to accept whether you like it or not at that point. As I mentioned, I'll help feed you and the other liberals here and others else where to the liberal mobs on a silver plate.

I am more or less in line with Tea Party these days. It's funny, the Minneapolis city counsel passed a bill that would make policing the hood and other sketchy areas damn near impossible and limited what the police can do in neighborhoods outside those areas then submitted and approved a formal request for private security for themselves at the tax payers expense. That's fucked up in my opinion but probably makes sense or doesn't matter to some idiot or clueless person who still supports the liberal status quo. One other thing, I don't think racism was a factor in the death of George Floyd. In other words, I don't think the cop who killed Floyd was a racist as you say. If anything, class was more of a factor than race.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-16-2020, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There are left wingers who advocate abolishing police and prisons. Most on the left disagree. I do too. That is libertarian crap. Once we are well behaved enough, prisons and police won't be needed. That depends on our spiritual evolution. It could take centuries or millennia.

Well, they're obviously doing it so what are you doing about it to stop it?  If are unable to do anything about it or stop it then what do you expect us to do about it to stop it or deal with it when it becomes our problem to address and resolve in our areas. I was recently on a fishing trip with an old country boy ( Evil Redneck). According to him, there's a lot of places to dispose of bodies out in the country. I'm sorry but your side doesn't seem to be as well behaved as the other side these days or anytime in the past.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-15-2020, 11:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days.

You don't realize that your extreme right-wing rants don't get much of an audience among a predominantly rational, moderate-to-liberal group of S&H fans here. I don't know why you don't deal with these issues in a similar way, even if not in a liberal way.

Berkeley city council passed a policy of reducing police funding by 50%, the first city to do so. But this is not final. The city will monitor how things are going, and exactly how much funding to shift. What blue cities are starting to realize is that shifting the funds could free up the cops that are left to do what their real job is, to deal with more-violent crime, whereas now not enough funds have been used for social workers and others who can resolve non-violent situations for which police are not trained by which they are used for now in absence of funding to social services.

I think Seattle is considering something similar, and probably Minneapolis.

But it suits your purpose to distort the common sense steps which blue side is taking in order arouse fear in the voters with law and order rhetoric.

https://abc7news.com/society/berkeley-se...5/6319164/

BERKELEY, Calif. (KGO) -- Responding to calls to defund police, the City of Berkeley is moving ahead with a plan that could dramatically cut funding to its force and shift many of the department's traditional responsibilities to non-sworn traffic and social workers.

RELATED: Here's what you need to know about defunding the police

The words "Defund BPD" are painted on the sidewalk near police headquarters. It's a message heard loud and clear by the Berkeley City Council, now moving ahead with an aggressive goal of cutting police funding by 50% next year.

In an early morning vote, the council approved a number of reforms and to dramatically cut the department's $70 million budget.

"What we did approve last night were landmark public safety reforms," explained Mayor Jesse Arreguin. "To begin a year-long process to re-imagine public safety and look at shifting responsibilities out of police department to non-sworn positions"

RELATED: Calls renewed to defund San Jose police amid investigation into alleged racist Facebook posts

Sworn officers would no longer make the majority of traffic stops, instead leaving those up to a separate traffic enforcement contingent.

And much of the work now done by police around other community issues would go to social workers.

"Most police calls are for mental health issues. We got a lot of calls around homelessness that don't involve any threats or allegations of violence," said Berkeley City Councilmember Sophie Hahn. "Law enforcement is not the only way that we get people to understand the rules and abide by them."
But some worry, reducing Berkeley's number of sworn officers could put citizens in jeopardy and they worry an unarmed traffic enforcement person may not be equipped to handle a situation, if it turns violent.

RELATED: https://abc7news.com/education/opd-outli...-/6242514/Oakland police outline reform plan, marchers call on Oakland mayor to defund police[/url]

A spokesman says the Berkeley Police Department will take a wait and see approach.

"It's too soon to determine how these referrals will inform how we provide police services to the community," said BPD Public Information Officer Byron White in a written statement. "The department will continue its commitment to public safety and evaluate calls for service that perhaps another city service could handle safely instead."

Mayor Arreguin believes shifting responses to non-violent incidents away from sworn officers might actually free them up, to address more serious crimes.

The council directed staff to study existing data on police stops and emergency calls and to come up with recommendations for how to staff up departments, like social services, outside of the police department.

Well, if Berkley thinks it's wise to split it's police force between lethal cops and non lethal cops or peacekeepers that's fine with me because I don't live any where near Berkley and I don't have to pay/suffer/ learn from their mistake. Like I've mentioned, I don't give a shit about what Berkley, Chicago, Detroit, New York City or some quaint liberal suburb populated with rich liberal or gated community populated with rich liberals thinks is best for them and all liberal parties and groups involved in their communities. I don't know, it sounds like a bunch of new liberal jobs to me. I'd like to know what the peacekeeper is supposed to do about the gang banger with the pistol or the drunk with the knife who is stabbing someone that their taser doesn't reach and so forth before I'd agree to making big changes involving police forces.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-17-2020, 02:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, there may be a few cops like that in the country. I don't think there are enough of them to attack, intimidate, condemn and punish all of them or treat them all like shit these days. The Boogaloo Bois ain't shit compared to Antifa and Black Live Matter and the party who is now in bed with both of them. Bob if you push me or punch or wave a stick or a bottle or anything that could be a weapon, I'm going to down and if the liberal Democrats ( the ones perpetuating and enabling by looking the other way or doing nothing) don't like it or think its wrong then that's to bad. PS. I thought you said (told Dave) the Boogaloo Bois were communist believers. As far as you and the others, you can disagree, deny affiliation, reject and even try to refuse to support it but if you can't then you're pretty fucked and are going to have to accept whether you like it or not at that point. As I mentioned, I'll help feed you and the other liberals here and others else where to the liberal mobs on a silver plate.

I am more or less in line with Tea Party these days. It's funny, the Minneapolis city counsel passed a bill that would make policing the hood and other sketchy areas damn near  impossible and limited what the police can do in neighborhoods outside those areas then submitted and approved a formal request for private security for themselves at the tax payers expense. That's fucked up in my opinion but probably makes sense or doesn't matter  to some idiot or clueless person who still supports the liberal status quo. One other thing, I don't think racism was a factor in the death of George Floyd. In other words, I don't think the cop who killed Floyd was a racist as you say. If anything, class was more of a factor than race.

Not all bad cops of are the racist variety. There is a local alliance of bad cops, drug pushers, sex industry professionals and lawyers who do each other favors regularly. If you are not part of their personal schemes, the bad cops can do a reasonable imitation of a good cop. If not, faked 911 calls result in no warrant searches, traffic stops take place regularly for no reason, in this case the custody of a grandchild was stolen and health insurance and social security was withheld, restored, withheld… etc…

This seems to make too much sense to exist only locally. Everyone can easily provide services others want.

One problem with this is that cops are more loyal to the other cops than to the law or the community they are supposed to serve. Even the supposedly good cops find life easier if they keep their mouths shut. While I am more familiar through personal experience with the vice flavored bad cop than the racist flavor, the idea that all cops are legally responsible for all crimes committed within their view is overdue. The loyalty to the law and the community has got to outweigh the loyalty to their fellow officers.

Of course, you think murder is OK so long as it is not yourself, your family, your friends, or other of your skin color. You would look the other way too. No, you do not represent law and order. You promote violence and treating people of color horribly.

Me, I think it entirely proper to prosecute and make all officers responsible for aiding and abetting all crimes, including those of other officers.

[David Horn]

(07-17-2020, 01:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-16-2020, 05:02 AM)David Horn Wrote: Except the sides changed, much as they are again today.  Blue collar workers were all-in for Democrats until Reagan.  Now they aren't.  Suburban professionals were all-in for Republicans until Trump.  Now they aren't.  Times change and parties realign.

That's what you and others say and tell each other time and time again, but have the sides really changed as a supporting racism and racist views goes? Yes, the group has changed and the skin color has changed but the dedication to keeping racism alive and separating people by race is still there. I think it's very clear that race doesn't matter to me as much as race matters to you guys these days. I think it's also very clear that you guys are on the modern day version of the Confederate side as well.

You seem to be implying that I'm anti-white Since I am white, I assume you believe that I'm self-loathing. The only other alternative is not accepting the "valid" complaints of white people being dissed by those overbearing people of color, so we're the Confederates of the Kill Whitey movement I guess.

Classic-Xer Wrote:The suburban cake eaters (the never Trump crowd) and the suburban women who lean Republican don't like Trump because Trump ain't their type of politician so to speak. He's to gruff and rough around the edges and says some stuff that's viewed as politically incorrect that upsets some people which makes them feel uneasy and insecure or scared about what others think of them or might do to them these days. Yes, the Republican side still has some pansy people who aren't sure which way the country is going to go at the moment. I agree, the Republican party is becoming more of a middle class oriented party these days and the Republican party hasn't adjusted to its new role very well at this point. The way I see it, the Tea Party is gradually taking over and becoming the dominant force of the party.

Trump isn't just rough around the edges, he's channeling well known hate speech and getting expected results. If there is a race war, and Trump is doing his best to start one, then choose a side and understand the side you're choosing. The side of exclusion and superiority didn't work too well for the Fascists and Nazis the last time it was tried.

[David Horn]

(07-17-2020, 08:21 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ... One problem with this is that cops are more loyal to the other cops than to the law or the community they are supposed to serve.  Even the supposedly good cops find life easier if they keep their mouths shut.  While I am more familiar through personal experience with the vice flavored bad cop than the racist flavor, the idea that all cops are legally responsible for all crimes committed within their view is overdue.  The loyalty to the law and the community has got to outweigh the loyalty to their fellow officers...

Me, I think it entirely proper to prosecute and make all officers responsible for aiding and abetting all crimes, including those of other officers.

In a way, the Solid Blue Line is the law enforcement version of soldiers fighting for their comrades in arms. The insularity is a safety blanket for people doing dangerous work, but it's also a guarantee that priorities are skewed. To be honest, that may not be directly fixable, so outside oversight is probably necessary, and should be demanded as part of the Defund the Police effort. Care needs to be given that the oversight doesn't go too far in the other direction, but an infinite number of checks and counterchecks is not an answer either.

[Eric the Green]

(07-17-2020, 01:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-16-2020, 05:02 AM)David Horn Wrote: Except the sides changed, much as they are again today.  Blue collar workers were all-in for Democrats until Reagan.  Now they aren't.  Suburban professionals were all-in for Republicans until Trump.  Now they aren't.  Times change and parties realign.

That's what you and others say and tell each other time and time again, but have the sides really changed as a supporting racism and racist views goes? Yes, the group has changed and the skin color has changed but the dedication to keeping racism alive and separating people by race is still there. I think it's very clear that race doesn't matter to me as much as race matters to you guys these days. I think it's also very clear that you guys are on the modern day version of the Confederate side as well.

The suburban cake eaters ( the never Trump crowd) and the suburban women who lean Republican don't like Trump because Trump ain't their type of politician so to speak. He's to gruff and rough around the edges and says some stuff that's viewed as politically incorrect that upsets some people which makes them feel uneasy and insecure or scared about what others think of them or might do to them these days. Yes, the Republican side still has some pansy people who aren't sure which way the country is going to go at the moment. I agree, the Republican party is becoming more of a middle class oriented party these days and the Republican party hasn't adjusted to its new role very well at this point. The way I see it, the Tea Party is gradually taking over and becoming the dominant force of the party.

You don't have a definition of "American," although you expect us to be that. Your definition of racism is also reversed. Those of us whites and liberals who care about racism, are defined by you as racist because we care about racism and acknowledge it as an issue, whereas folks like you who want to ignore and enable it are not racists because you want to cover it up.

Your definition of gruff and rough needs some work too. The problem with Trump is that he's a psychopath and sociopath without any principle or dedication to his job. If some Republicans don't go along with this madness, you call them pansies. For you, to not be a pansy is to go whole hog with insanity.

[Eric the Green]

(07-17-2020, 03:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 11:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days.

You don't realize that your extreme right-wing rants don't get much of an audience among a predominantly rational, moderate-to-liberal group of S&H fans here. I don't know why you don't deal with these issues in a similar way, even if not in a liberal way.

Berkeley city council passed a policy of reducing police funding by 50%, the first city to do so. But this is not final. The city will monitor how things are going, and exactly how much funding to shift. What blue cities are starting to realize is that shifting the funds could free up the cops that are left to do what their real job is, to deal with more-violent crime, whereas now not enough funds have been used for social workers and others who can resolve non-violent situations for which police are not trained by which they are used for now in absence of funding to social services.

I think Seattle is considering something similar, and probably Minneapolis.

But it suits your purpose to distort the common sense steps which blue side is taking in order arouse fear in the voters with law and order rhetoric.

https://abc7news.com/society/berkeley-se...5/6319164/

BERKELEY, Calif. (KGO) -- Responding to calls to defund police, the City of Berkeley is moving ahead with a plan that could dramatically cut funding to its force and shift many of the department's traditional responsibilities to non-sworn traffic and social workers.

RELATED: Here's what you need to know about defunding the police

The words "Defund BPD" are painted on the sidewalk near police headquarters. It's a message heard loud and clear by the Berkeley City Council, now moving ahead with an aggressive goal of cutting police funding by 50% next year.

In an early morning vote, the council approved a number of reforms and to dramatically cut the department's $70 million budget.

"What we did approve last night were landmark public safety reforms," explained Mayor Jesse Arreguin. "To begin a year-long process to re-imagine public safety and look at shifting responsibilities out of police department to non-sworn positions"

RELATED: Calls renewed to defund San Jose police amid investigation into alleged racist Facebook posts

Sworn officers would no longer make the majority of traffic stops, instead leaving those up to a separate traffic enforcement contingent.

And much of the work now done by police around other community issues would go to social workers.

"Most police calls are for mental health issues. We got a lot of calls around homelessness that don't involve any threats or allegations of violence," said Berkeley City Councilmember Sophie Hahn. "Law enforcement is not the only way that we get people to understand the rules and abide by them."
But some worry, reducing Berkeley's number of sworn officers could put citizens in jeopardy and they worry an unarmed traffic enforcement person may not be equipped to handle a situation, if it turns violent.

RELATED: https://abc7news.com/education/opd-outli...-/6242514/Oakland police outline reform plan, marchers call on Oakland mayor to defund police[/url]

A spokesman says the Berkeley Police Department will take a wait and see approach.

"It's too soon to determine how these referrals will inform how we provide police services to the community," said BPD Public Information Officer Byron White in a written statement. "The department will continue its commitment to public safety and evaluate calls for service that perhaps another city service could handle safely instead."

Mayor Arreguin believes shifting responses to non-violent incidents away from sworn officers might actually free them up, to address more serious crimes.

The council directed staff to study existing data on police stops and emergency calls and to come up with recommendations for how to staff up departments, like social services, outside of the police department.

Well, if Berkeley thinks it's wise to split it's police force between lethal cops and non lethal cops or peacekeepers that's fine with me because I don't live any where near Berkeley and I don't have to pay/suffer/ learn from their mistake. Like I've mentioned, I don't give a shit about what Berkeley, Chicago, Detroit, New York City or some quaint liberal suburb populated with rich liberal or gated community populated with rich liberals thinks is best for them and all liberal parties and groups involved in their communities. I don't know, it sounds like a bunch of new liberal jobs to me. I'd like to know what the peacekeeper is supposed to do about the gang banger with the pistol or the drunk with the knife who is stabbing someone that their taser doesn't reach and so forth before I'd agree to making big changes involving police forces.

You care enough about those blue cities to tell us what we ought to do. Well, thanks a lot buddy for your advice, but we don't intend to be nice to the racists and the brutality doers and enablers.

As the article says, the reforms being considered would free up the armed cops to deal with violence, because they aren't out doing social work that they have no business doing.

[Eric the Green]

(07-17-2020, 02:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-16-2020, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There are left wingers who advocate abolishing police and prisons. Most on the left disagree. I do too. That is libertarian crap. Once we are well behaved enough, prisons and police won't be needed. That depends on our spiritual evolution. It could take centuries or millennia.

Well, they're obviously doing it so what are you doing about it to stop it?  If are unable to do anything about it or stop it then what do you expect us to do about it to stop it or deal with it when it becomes our problem to address and resolve in our areas. I was recently on a fishing trip with an old country boy ( Evil Redneck). According to him, there's a lot of places to dispose of bodies out in the country. I'm sorry but your side doesn't seem to be as well behaved as the other side these days or anytime in the past.

I don't think the blue cities and counties are abolishing police and prisons. That's just what some on the left advocate. No, there are districts in our cities that are not well-behaved, so that's why we will keep the police and the prisons. We just want to reform them so they don't cause more harm than good, and don't cause and perpetrate crimes instead of carrying out and enforcing the law. We want funds directed to services that help people too, instead of just shooting and choking them to death. You seem to object to this. 

I guess you'd like to build a jail wall around blue cities, as well as around our country. You want us all to be armed to the teeth too. But guns, walls and jails are not keeping the virus out, and they don't keep crime out either. In general and as a whole, red states have more crime and violence than blue ones, and they are reaping the results of their unwillingness to act about the virus too now, as well as reaping the results of their stupid attitudes about crime and violence as they always have.

[pbrower2a]

(07-17-2020, 08:21 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-17-2020, 02:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, there may be a few cops like that in the country. I don't think there are enough of them to attack, intimidate, condemn and punish all of them or treat them all like shit these days. The Boogaloo Bois ain't shit compared to Antifa and Black Live Matter and the party who is now in bed with both of them. Bob if you push me or punch or wave a stick or a bottle or anything that could be a weapon, I'm going to down and if the liberal Democrats ( the ones perpetuating and enabling by looking the other way or doing nothing) don't like it or think its wrong then that's to bad. PS. I thought you said (told Dave) the Boogaloo Bois were communist believers. As far as you and the others, you can disagree, deny affiliation, reject and even try to refuse to support it but if you can't then you're pretty fucked and are going to have to accept whether you like it or not at that point. As I mentioned, I'll help feed you and the other liberals here and others else where to the liberal mobs on a silver plate.

I am more or less in line with Tea Party these days. It's funny, the Minneapolis city counsel passed a bill that would make policing the hood and other sketchy areas damn near  impossible and limited what the police can do in neighborhoods outside those areas then submitted and approved a formal request for private security for themselves at the tax payers expense. That's fucked up in my opinion but probably makes sense or doesn't matter  to some idiot or clueless person who still supports the liberal status quo. One other thing, I don't think racism was a factor in the death of George Floyd. In other words, I don't think the cop who killed Floyd was a racist as you say. If anything, class was more of a factor than race.

Not all bad cops of are the racist variety.  There is a local alliance of bad cops, drug pushers, sex industry professionals and lawyers who do each other favors regularly.  If you are not part of their personal schemes, the bad cops can do a reasonable imitation of a good cop.  If not, faked 911 calls result in no warrant searches, traffic stops take place regularly for no reason, in this case the custody of a grandchild was stolen and health insurance and social security was withheld, restored, withheld… etc…

There are corrupt, brutal, and incompetent cops. We need to drum them out... but more importantly we need to find ways in which to ensure that we not get those sorts of cops. Police academies are run somewhat like military academies (except without the semblance of general education that is assumed for someone selected for training in a police academy).  Character obviously matters greatly, but most people know how to answer questions about character if they are applying for a job that has any semblance of professionalism. Maybe retail stores end up with unsophisticated people who can get the answers wrong about behavior and attitudes consistent with embezzlement or 'inventory shrinkage'... one such question is about whether people are generally honest... and someone who comes from a culture in which 'doesn't everyone steal?' is a common statement is one person that you do not want to employ.

Police must be paid well enough that they don't end up on the informal payroll of the well-heeled Bad Guys. Note also that good pay can make police work attractive to people who see it more lucrative than being a  clerk, bartender, or laborer despite a college degree. The bad cop might look the other way  about drugs or prostitution but be an eager-beaver in enforcing traffic laws (strengthening your argument on a bad cop looking like a good cop even in the level of performance.  
 

Quote:This seems to make too much sense to exist only locally.  Everyone can easily provide services others want.

We need more social workers. We need to restore some moral education in schools (basically it is wrong to hurt people, be promiscuous, deal drugs, be involved in loan sharking or crooked gambling)... ideally a good society would reward people adequately for jobs well done, but our current economic order treats working people badly ... until the owners and bosses are scared or the method starts to fail (like workers getting sick or injured in unusual numbers). A hint based upon the reality of COVID-19: we have been doing much of our industrial production, especially in food processing -- and don't fool yourself -- such a business as a dairy or a slaughterhouse really is for all practical purposes a factory, and usually a sweatshop on the cheap. We may be unable to do that. How do we know that there isn't a COVID-23 in the wings ready to strike with incompetent and inattentive leadership at the Top?

Maybe we will even see a rebirth of religion as a means of creating community and establishing collective guidelines on moral conduct.      

Quote:One problem with this is that cops are more loyal to the other cops than to the law or the community they are supposed to serve.  Even the supposedly good cops find life easier if they keep their mouths shut.  While I am more familiar through personal experience with the vice flavored bad cop than the racist flavor, the idea that all cops are legally responsible for all crimes committed within their view is overdue.  The loyalty to the law and the community has got to outweigh the loyalty to their fellow officers.

That is one strength of the police force -- it is not a collection of lone wolves unable to cooperate. The survival of any institution depends upon the delicate balance between the individual and the collective. Rugged individualism is limited in its potential, but rigid collectivism can commit people to catastrophe especially if the means to catastrophe have efficient means for its achievement.

Quote: Of course (Classic X'er) , you think murder is OK so long as it is not yourself, your family, your friends, or other of your skin color.  You would look the other way too.  No, you do not represent law and order.  You promote violence and treating people of color horribly.

When law enforcement of the official kind disappears due to social breakdown, lynch 'law' emerges as a stopgap. Lynch law is infamously unjust and ineffective at anything other than punishment.

Classic X'er seems like the sort who thinks that he isn't bigoted because he watched the Cosby Show (OK, it isn't so funny once we found out what Bill Cosby is off the stage) or perhaps because he patronized an African-American woman as a prostitute. Or maybe he is like the German who knew one good Jew before 1933... with black people. 

Quote:Me, I think it entirely proper to prosecute and make all officers responsible for aiding and abetting all crimes, including those of other officers.

With great rewards come great responsibilities... but even at low levels in our economic hierarchy we all have the responsibility to be good to each other.

I hate to see this, but I can imagine Classic X'er as the sort of person that I would not want to meet if I were in Rwanda or Yugoslavia at certain times in the recent past if he saw me as the Enemy.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-17-2020, 12:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You don't have a definition of "American," although you expect us to be that. Your definition of racism is also reversed. Those of us whites and liberals who care about racism, are defined by you as racist because we care about racism and acknowledge it as an issue, whereas folks like you who want to ignore and enable it are not racists because you want to cover it up.

Your definition of gruff and rough needs some work too. The problem with Trump is that he's a psychopath and sociopath without any principle or dedication to his job. If some Republicans don't go along with this madness, you call them pansies. For you, to not be a pansy is to go whole hog with insanity.

I have nothing to hide or cover up as far as racism goes. Who taught you that, a fellow minority racist or a Marxist? So, what's the social insurance that you seem to place so much value on these days intended to do again? I assume, its meant to keep them separated from white people people like you and keep them below you and reliant upon you and your so called goodness or keep them behind you and those promoting/professing liberal views and beliefs and the political goals of today's Left.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-15-2020, 10:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

Honoring the S&H theory, I don’t have to wonder about how it is going to turn out.  The new values have prevailed during the heart of the crisis, and the old rejected with emphasis.  Judging by how the virus behaves and the people have supported equality against the violent racist cops, there is nothing I see that suggest it will be different this time.

Again, before the awakening both parties had conservative and progressive wings, but identified with the old Civil War alignments.  After LBJ and Nixon, that shifted, with the Democrats going more fully progressive and the Republicans picking up the racist element.  The parties are not what they were at the time of Lincoln.  If you don’t know your history, you come up with all sorts of weird ideas.

Did the new values prevail over the old values during The Great Depression or World War II? Nope, the parties aren't the same as they were at the time of Lincoln. The Whigs (the party that represented the status quo at the time) were politically annihilated and absorbed by the dominant parties. I think Nixon courted the growing population of non union working class voters associated with the new South myself. You can stick with your Northeastern liberal views but I doubt its going to help you at this point.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-17-2020, 12:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-17-2020, 02:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-16-2020, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There are left wingers who advocate abolishing police and prisons. Most on the left disagree. I do too. That is libertarian crap. Once we are well behaved enough, prisons and police won't be needed. That depends on our spiritual evolution. It could take centuries or millennia.

Well, they're obviously doing it so what are you doing about it to stop it?  If are unable to do anything about it or stop it then what do you expect us to do about it to stop it or deal with it when it becomes our problem to address and resolve in our areas. I was recently on a fishing trip with an old country boy ( Evil Redneck). According to him, there's a lot of places to dispose of bodies out in the country. I'm sorry but your side doesn't seem to be as well behaved as the other side these days or anytime in the past.

I don't think the blue cities and counties are abolishing police and prisons. That's just what some on the left advocate. No, there are districts in our cities that are not well-behaved, so that's why we will keep the police and the prisons. We just want to reform them so they don't cause more harm than good, and don't cause and perpetrate crimes instead of carrying out and enforcing the law. We want funds directed to services that help people too, instead of just shooting and choking them to death. You seem to object to this. 

I guess you'd like to build a jail wall around blue cities, as well as around our country. You want us all to be armed to the teeth too. But guns, walls and jails are not keeping the virus out, and they don't keep crime out either. In general and as a whole, red states have more crime and violence than blue ones, and they are reaping the results of their unwillingness to act about the virus too now, as well as reaping the results of their stupid attitudes about crime and violence as they always have.

Dude, I don't care if the liberals running Berkeley and the liberals who live there decide to cut their armed police force budget in half and use the other half to fund unarmed social workers/ peacekeepers who aren't nearly as well trained in self defense or the use of firearms and end up regretting doing it or going along with it down the road. I assume they're about as wise and as sharp as the liberals that I see in congress and the ones seen on TV and the ones on the internet these days. I don't live there and I don't have to pay for their mistakes. Dude, we are going to functioning as separate countries within a decade or so anyway. So, who gives a fuck about what the liberals are doing and messing with in their areas at this point.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-17-2020, 01:41 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: When law enforcement of the official kind disappears due to social breakdown, lynch 'law' emerges as a stopgap. Lynch law is infamously unjust and ineffective at anything other than punishment.

Classic X'er seems like the sort who thinks that he isn't bigoted because he watched the Cosby Show (OK, it isn't so funny once we found out what Bill Cosby is off the stage) or perhaps because he patronized an African-American woman as a prostitute. Or maybe he is like the German who knew one good Jew before 1933... with black people. 

That's cheap but then again you've always been cheap with me. Yep, when law enforcement is over whelmed or viewed as no longer valuable or no longer worth doing as a profession then laws change or simply disappear and are replaced by lunch laws and an acceptance of settling disputes with violence which eventually becomes common and more commonly viewed as acceptable like they were during the wild west. I doubt that you would fare very well in such an environment.

[pbrower2a]

(07-17-2020, 08:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-17-2020, 01:41 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: When law enforcement of the official kind disappears due to social breakdown, lynch 'law' emerges as a stopgap. Lynch law is infamously unjust and ineffective at anything other than punishment.

Classic X'er seems like the sort who thinks that he isn't bigoted because he watched the Cosby Show (OK, it isn't so funny once we found out what Bill Cosby is off the stage) or perhaps because he patronized an African-American woman as a prostitute. Or maybe he is like the German who knew one good Jew before 1933... with black people. 

That's cheap but then again you've always been cheap with me. Yep, when law enforcement is over whelmed or viewed as no longer valuable or no longer worth doing as a profession then laws change or simply disappear and  are replaced by lynch laws and an acceptance of settling disputes with violence which eventually becomes common and more  commonly viewed as acceptable like they were during the wild west. I doubt that you would fare very well in such an environment.

Aw, I hurt your precious ego. I hope it was on racism because that is far lower than the other accusation.

As for the Wild West -- the "Wild West" was anything but uniformly wild. The Mormon settlers of Utah had absolutely no taste for violence in their orderly communities.  That reflects their New England-New York heritage. Likewise, there is good reason for practically no violent Westerns being set in Nebraska... much as the pattern in Canada, the law came with the settlers. Settlers were quicker to build a courthouse than a saloon. Go into town and shoot your weapons off, and you get to find the inside of the hoosegow, the courthouse, and then the hoosegow again for a long term. The wildest places were mining towns like Deadwood, Dakota Territory, where a few people struck it rich, the liquor flowed about as freely as water, and personal insults were often resolved with Messrs. Colt, Smith and Wesson, Remington, etc. instead of with attorneys and judges. Next most violent were trailheads, where cowboys suddenly got paid and typically spend money like drunken sailors in the saloon and the whorehouse if some marauder didn't rob them first. Really bad was a mining town that also was a trailhead -- the aptly-named Tombstone, Arizona. 

(So why can I make this relevant to myself? I do genealogy, and a sister of a great-great grandfather was a real-life "Miss Kitty"... in Deadwood, Dakota Territory.

This fairly well explains the life of a cowboy driving the herd, except that it is sanitized for television:

Quote:Keep Rollin', Rollin', Rollin',
Though the streams are swollen,
Keep them dawwgies rollin', Rawhide!
Through rain and wind and weather,
Hell bent for leather,
Wishing my girl was by my side,
All the things I'm missin'
Good fiddles, love and kissin',
Are waiting at the end of my ride.

(OK -- I thought it was "vittles" instead of fiddles. So it's really wine, women, and song... OK,  the "wine" is whiskey and the "song" isn't Schubert Lieder or Strauss waltzes).

 Minnesota was not Wild West, and the good citizens of Northfield, Minnesota showed the James-Younger gang practically the end of the line for most of them.  

......       

I doubt that you know many black people. 

The first rule is to assume the right to equality of dignity with people of different origin until lyou see compelling, fault-worthy reason to believe otherwise. I have learned how to size people up from the content and quality of conversation, giving an allowance for age and gender. Think of the sorts of clothes that people wear,  Possessions? No. All people have differing priorities.  A semi-literate person with an expensive car impresses me (that could be a pimp or a drug pusher) less than does an intelligent person who drives an econobox vehicle (some people think that status symbols are for schmucks). In New York City, not having a car is commonplace, so that's not good for much.

[David Horn]

(07-17-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, I don't care if the liberals running Berkeley and the liberals who live there decide to cut their armed police force budget in half and use the other half to fund unarmed social workers/ peacekeepers who aren't nearly as well trained in self defense or the use of firearms and end up regretting doing it or going along with it down the road. I assume they're about as wise and as sharp as the liberals that I see in congress and the ones seen on TV and the ones on the internet these days. I don't live there and I don't have to pay for their mistakes. Dude, we are going to functioning as separate countries within a decade or so anyway. So,  who gives a fuck about what the liberals are doing and messing with in their areas at this point.

By that measure, you don't support the armed Federal vigilantes Trump is using in Portland Oregon, because Lefties in Lefty places should be allowed to rot in place -- except not in this case.

[pbrower2a]

(07-18-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-17-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, I don't care if the liberals running Berkeley and the liberals who live there decide to cut their armed police force budget in half and use the other half to fund unarmed social workers/ peacekeepers who aren't nearly as well trained in self defense or the use of firearms and end up regretting doing it or going along with it down the road. I assume they're about as wise and as sharp as the liberals that I see in congress and the ones seen on TV and the ones on the internet these days. I don't live there and I don't have to pay for their mistakes. Dude, we are going to functioning as separate countries within a decade or so anyway. So,  who gives a fuck about what the liberals are doing and messing with in their areas at this point.

By that measure, you don't support the armed Federal vigilantes Trump is using in Portland Oregon, because Lefties in Lefty places should be allowed to rot in place -- except not in this case.

I have my concern in that this is a laboratory exercise for doing either on a rotating basis (today Portland, then Berkeley, then Ann Arbor, then Austin... maybe Chicago and New York) with a brutal secret police. 

When fascism comes to America it will have the US flag wrapped around a crucifix... what did anyone expect -- some strange new symbol or an old one from elsewhere? It will need a secret police, and "Department of Homeland Security" looks about as good as "Ministerium fuer Staatsicherheit" (the official name of the Stasi of the former East Germany). We have Departments and not Ministries.  

The only good thing about the old German Democratic Republic (which according to the old joke was neither German, democratic, nor a Republic, was a beautiful national anthem. This spoof gets the reality of the "red fascist" regime as objectively as I can imagine. 



  

A dictatorial America would probably better resemble the old East Germany than any other dictatorship, with the usual adjustments for national culture and being plutocratic instead of Marxist. We would of course have the worst characteristics of capitalist plutocracy and Soviet bureaucracy together, as is commonplace for fascist regimes.

OK, J S Bach was a sort of national hero in the DDR, and he would be suspect in America -- too intellectual -- and the government would be promoting fundamentalist-evangelical Protestantism as an ethos instead of Marxism.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-18-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-17-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, I don't care if the liberals running Berkeley and the liberals who live there decide to cut their armed police force budget in half and use the other half to fund unarmed social workers/ peacekeepers who aren't nearly as well trained in self defense or the use of firearms and end up regretting doing it or going along with it down the road. I assume they're about as wise and as sharp as the liberals that I see in congress and the ones seen on TV and the ones on the internet these days. I don't live there and I don't have to pay for their mistakes. Dude, we are going to functioning as separate countries within a decade or so anyway. So,  who gives a fuck about what the liberals are doing and messing with in their areas at this point.

By that measure, you don't support the armed Federal vigilantes Trump is using in Portland Oregon, because Lefties in Lefty places should be allowed to rot in place -- except not in this case.

I thought that I've made it very, very clear to you and every other liberal here, that I place no value on liberal groups like Antifa that are already busy waging war with today's American union. You go right ahead and side with them and whoever is funding them and we'll see how long you're able survive here.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-17-2020, 10:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:  Minnesota was not Wild West, and the good citizens of Northfield, Minnesota showed the James-Younger gang practically the end of the line for most of them.  

......       

I doubt that you know many black people. 

The first rule is to assume the right to equality of dignity with people of different origin until lyou see compelling, fault-worthy reason to believe otherwise. I have learned how to size people up from the content and quality of conversation, giving an allowance for age and gender. Think of the sorts of clothes that people wear,  Possessions? No. All people have differing priorities.  A semi-literate person with an expensive car impresses me (that could be a pimp or a drug pusher) less than does an intelligent person who drives an econobox vehicle (some people think that status symbols are for schmucks). In New York City, not having a car is commonplace, so that's not good for much.

Yep, Minnesota wasn't the Wild West or at least that's what the James Gang thought before they were completely decimated by a bunch of well armed American citizens (rednecks) who lived in Northfield, Minnesota. I bet I know and I have met more American blacks and Hispanics and Asians than you. You may feel better about yourself or less racist towards blacks because you watched the Cosby Show or The Jefferson's. Dude, I went to high school with black kids like the Huxtables before the show was popular.