The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(07-19-2020, 04:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. Fort Sumter represented an attack on federal property by a violent group who wanted to send the American government and its people and all their Confederate supporters a message by seizing an American fort. Bob, you seem to be having a problem recognizing the eerie similarities between what went on with Fort Sumter and other federal properties back then and what's going on with federal properties located in certain parts of the country today...  

I recognize the pattern.  Those trying to cling to the old values get submarined by the arrow of progress.  They appeal to violence and lose.  In the Information Age, I anticipate the violence will be replaced by legislation to a great extent.

Ask any slaveholder how it works, if you can find one.

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that Dave is getting his information from the same groups and media  outlets and sources that you and others are these days. I know that if you and I were to meet, you wouldn't be able to look me in the face or give me a straight answer or admit to me that you are/ were wrong and apologize even if your life depended upon you doing it at the time.

I do pick up the quite public reports, with the CNN and the AP pages being the most common these days.  I generally link to my sources.  I can quite assure you that no one is sending me anything that isn't on an obvious page.  Your assumption that I am getting secretive propaganda from some hidden blue group is a figment of your rather warped imagination.  It is totally divorced from reality, as is most of your junk.

I'm suggesting that you're receiving select information not secretive information. Right now, the Left is the only group using intimidation and violence as a political means to achieve its objectives which seems to work pretty well with liberal Democrats and peaceful people associated the American Left or the center left these days. Unfortunately, it's not working at all with those on the other side of the political spectrum these days. Yep. The folks clinging to old world values that you are now directly associated with whether you like it or not are currently setting themselves up to be pummeled by those directly associated with the arrow of progress these days.

[Eric the Green]

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 02:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Fort Sumpter was an attack on federal property by a bunch of people who wanted to initiate violence.  That sort of is what the Boogaloo Bois want to do.  The Boogaloo Bois do not have the stature of the Confederate Government.  Granted, some of the red faction of the government also seems to want to settle the issue by force and violence too.  They are leading each other on a merry dance.  I'd wish them luck with each other save they are dragging some of the protesters into their dance.

The blue leaning parts of the government, the people, and the protestors are leaning away from the violence.

But that is not what the protestors is asking for.  I can't speak for everyone, but I favor that the good cops be more loyal to the law and to the community than to the bad cops.  I don't see us getting rid of the blue wall of silence entirely, but it should be easy to lose the worthiness it takes to earn that protection.

Dave?  Are you getting stuff from some secret conspiracy, or is that a figment of Classic's imagination too?

Yep. Fort Sumter represented an attack on federal property by a violent group who wanted to send the American government and its people and all their Confederate supporters a message by seizing an American fort. Bob, you seem to be having a problem recognizing the eerie similarities between what went on with Fort Sumter and other federal properties back then and what's going on with federal properties located in certain parts of the country today. The liberals are strumming its nose and blowing off Americans just like the British and the Confederates. I'll help you learn what it was like to be a starving Confederate civilian, a Confederate whose government was to weak to stop rogue groups of criminals  from murdering, looting and raping unprotected women as they please or stop an American army or armed American population from killing and removing the rights of thousands upon thousands of Confederate supporters and so forth. I assume that Dave is getting his information from the same groups and media  outlets and sources that you and others are these days. I know that if you and I were to meet, you wouldn't be able to look me in the face or give me a straight answer or admit to me that you are/ were wrong and apologize even if your life depended upon you doing it at the time.

You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

[Eric the Green]

We now have a thug government that sends secret thugs to arrest peaceful protesters in direct violation of the first amendment.

This is verging on what happens in China or Syria. How far will Trump take this? Some people on the left like Tulsi Gabbard ignored what Assad did in Syria and blamed it on the USA. They and right-wing Trump supporters alike had better take notice now of what our own potential dictator is doing, or we may be the next Syria. We have the right to protest. Putting graffiti on a federal building may be illegal, but it does not justify fracturing the skull of an innocent person, or randomly picking people up off the streets.

"They're kidnapping people": "Trump's secret police" snatch Portland protesters into unmarked vans

Trump is "weaponizing the DHS" as his "own occupying army to provoke violence," Oregon Sen. Ron Wyden says

IGOR DERYSH
JULY 17, 2020 4:05PM (UTC)
https://www.salon.com/2020/07/17/theyre-...rked-vans/

Democratic leaders in Oregon called on the Trump administration to withdraw federal forces from Portland after footage emerged of camouflaged federal officers snatching protesters off the streets and detaining them in unmarked minivans.

Officers from the U.S. Marshals Special Operations Group and Custom and Border Protection's Border Patrol Tactical Unit have been deployed to protect federal property in Portland amid ongoing protests since July 14, according to Oregon Public Broadcasting. But the officials have also detained protesters who are not near federal property, the outlet reported, and it is unclear if all of the detained individuals were involved in alleged criminal activity.

One viral video showed two silent camouflaged officers lead a protester into an unmarked minivan as fellow protesters shout that they're "kidnapping people."

"Authoritarian governments, not democratic republics, send unmarked authorities after protesters," Sen. Jeff Merkley, D-Ore., tweeted. "These Trump/Barr tactics designed to eliminate any accountability are absolutely unacceptable in America, and must end."

The officers were dispatched as part of President Donald Trump's executive order to protect American memorials, monuments and statues amid ongoing protests in cities like Portland.

"We've done a great job in Portland," Trump said Monday during a White House event. "Portland was totally out of control, and they went in, and I guess we have many people right now in jail. We very much quelled it, and if it starts again, we'll quell it again very easily. It's not hard to do, if you know what you're doing."

Instead (of de-) escalating tensions with demonstrators, the president's decision has actually had the opposite effect, The Washington Post reported. Federal officers have tear gassed protesters despite a state law which prohibits chemical irritants from being used on demonstrations.

On Saturday, federal agents shot a man in the face with non-lethal munitions, fracturing his skull.

"A peaceful protester in Portland was shot in the head by one of Donald Trump's secret police," Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., wrote on Twitter. "Now Trump and [Acting Homeland Security Secretary] Chad Wolf are weaponizing the DHS as their own occupying army to provoke violence on the streets of my hometown because they think it plays well with right-wing media."

Wolf visited the city Thursday to tour a federal courthouse vandalized with graffiti.

"It's time that we take a stand. It's time that local leaders here publicly condemn what violent anarchists are doing. Only then, will local police, federal police get this under control," he later said in an interview with Fox News host Sean Hannity. "Earlier this week, I called the mayor and governor. I offered DHS support to locally address the situation in Portland. Their only response was, 'Please pack up, and go home.' That's just not going to happen on my watch."

"The city of Portland has been under siege for 47 straight days by a violent mob while local political leaders refuse to restore order to protect their city. Each night, lawless anarchists destroy and desecrate property, including the federal courthouse, and attack the brave law enforcement officers protecting it," Wolf said in a statement. "This siege can end if state and local officials decide to take appropriate action instead of refusing to enforce the law. DHS will not abdicate its solemn duty to protect federal facilities and those within them. Again, I reiterate the department's offer to assist local and state leaders to bring an end to the violence perpetuated by anarchists."

Oregon Gov. Kate Brown, a Democrat, responded to Wolf's statement by arguing that the deployment of federal forces was merely "political theater."

"This political theater from President Trump has nothing to do with public safety. The president is failing to lead this nation. Now, he is deploying federal officers to patrol the streets of Portland in a blatant abuse of power by the federal government," Brown said. "I told Acting Secretary Wolf that the federal government should remove all federal officers from our streets. His response showed me he is on a mission to provoke confrontation for political purposes. He is putting both Oregonians and local law enforcement officers in harm's way."

"This, coming from the same president who used tear gas to clear out peaceful protesters in Washington, D.C., to engineer a photo opportunity," she added. "Trump is looking for a confrontation in Oregon in the hopes of winning political points in Ohio or Iowa."

Protesters Mark Pettibone and Conner O'Shea told Oregon Public Broadcasting that they were stopped by an unmarked minvan Wednesday at around 2 a.m. local time.

"I see guys in camo," O'Shea said. "Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, 'Oh sh*t. I don't know who you are or what you want with us.'"

He said he ran when officers came out of the car and hid when a second van went after him. Pettibone was unable to escape.

"I am basically tossed into the van," Pettibone told the outlet. "And I had my beanie pulled over my face so I couldn't see, and they held my hands over my head."

Both men said they could not think of anything they did to warrant a response from law enforcement. Pettibone told OPB that he was not told why he had been arrested. He was released about 90 minutes after he refused to be interviewed without a lawyer.

"All United States Marshals Service arrestees have public records of arrest documenting their charges," the U.S. Marshals Service told the outlet in a statement. "Our agency did not arrest or detain Mark James Pettibone."

Federal officers have charged at least 13 people with crimes related to the protests, while others like Pettibone, have been arrested and released, OPB reported.

Civil rights groups condemned the tactic.

"Usually, when we see people in unmarked cars forcibly grab someone off the street, we call it kidnapping. What is happening now in Portland should concern everyone in the U.S.," the ACLU said in a statement. "These actions are flat-out unconstitutional and will not go unanswered."

"It's like stop-and-frisk meets Guantanamo Bay," attorney Juan Chavez, the head of the civil rights project at the Oregon Justice Resource Center, told OPB. "You have laws regarding probable cause that can lead to arrests. It sounds more like abduction. It sounds like they're kidnapping people off the streets."

"We do not need or want their help," Mayor Ted Wheeler, a Democrat, said. "The best thing they can do is stay inside their building, or leave Portland altogether."

The city's police commissioner echoed that sentiment.

"I am proud to be among the loud chorus of elected officials calling for the federal troops in Portland's streets to go home," Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty said. "Their presence here has escalated tensions and put countless Portlanders exercising their First Amendment rights in greater danger."

The deployment is not limited to Portland. Federal officers have also been sent to Seattle and the nation's capital, according to Willamette Week.

"I think Portland is a test case," Zakir Khan, a spokesman for the Oregon chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, told The Washington Post. "They want to see what they can get away with before launching into other parts of the country."


IGOR DERYSH
Igor Derysh is a staff writer at Salon. His work has also appeared in the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, Boston Herald and Baltimore Sun.

Tips/Email: iderysh@salon.com Twitter: @IgorDerysh

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-19-2020, 11:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob, I'm going to be associated with racist oppression whether it's true or not at this point. You seem to be stuck on the Boogaloo Bois and seem pretty  clueless about much larger and more powerful  groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter.  I think it's very clear that liberals don't care whether what they say about other people and what they believe is actually true or not at this point. I get it, you've already committed and you can't go backwards at this point.  I can't touch you but I can touch one of you anytime time that I want at this point.   BTW, when we start responding to the Left and start playing tit for tat with the Left and the Left starts finding itself at odds with a much more powerful American  version of their own cancel culture their reign will come to an ugly and brutal end. I don't know who taught you that America can't be as mean or meaner and less sympathetic than the Left towards the Left these days but who ever did was either a fool or a liar.

I get my news from the major costal organizations, including CNN, the AP and MSNBC. I also visit YouTube frequently, and pick up many another point of view. I take these far more seriously than an obviously partisan rogue.

I see in these the motivations of the four organizations. The Antifa, anti fascists, opponents of the KKK and Neo Nazi, are willing to go violent if their opposition does and has. Black lives matter, who thinks black lives matter, opposes the centuries old racist violent tendencies of the bad cops. The Boogaloo Bois think that the establishment has failed, that only violence could correct the wrongs. These are basically Marxists without Marx, very similar in philosophy, but avoiding the reputation, language and history of Lenin, Stalin and Mao. They latch onto any protest on many topics and attempt to promote violence without caring much about what is being protested. Finally there are looters, more financially motivated than political, but see opportunity in exploiting political moments for their own gain.

In the simplest of worlds, people would have only one motivation. Everyone could be dropped in one and only one slot. I am quite willing to admit this is not the simplest of worlds. While each of these motives will gather those who support it, there could easily be those who follow more than one.

I myself have not bothered with Antifa, endorse Black Lives Matter, and think policing should be endorsed against the Boogaloo Bois and looters. No matter what name you use, all four motivations exist. I see most who would consider themselves blue concur.

Now there are some reds that twist these motives. I remember one incident where the local red activists decided that a family of tourists was secretly violent Antifa activists, and ‘defended’ the community from the tourists by cutting down enough trees that they could not leave. The family was rescued by people who used chainsaws to gather firewood and the local police. Make the world safe from family campers? The reds were entirely wrong about the motivations of the people harassed.

Now I have no reason to throw away the informations gathered from the major news organizations away in favor of similar twisted information from a partisan fanatic. For some reason Classic has a tendency to get his motivations confused. This is no surprise. As he cannot deal with the real blue motivations he makes up straw men that he can deal with. That is his major trick, a fairly useless one.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm suggesting that you're receiving select information not secretive information.

You are entirely wrong in your suggestions. I go out seeking news and opinions. No one is selectively sending me information.

(07-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Right now, the Left is the only group using intimidation and violence as a political means to achieve its objectives which seems to work pretty well with liberal Democrats and peaceful people associated the American Left or the center left these days. Unfortunately, it's not working at all with those on the other side of the political spectrum these days. Yep. The folks clinging to old world values that you are now directly associated with whether you like it or not are currently setting themselves up to be pummeled by those directly associated with the arrow of progress these days.

I see the blue as supporting police reform to get rid of a culture of racist violence, to support specialists in areas like mental health, job search or family relations which were cut during the unraveling rather than sending a law enforcement specialist. This is my own motivation and very common among the other blues I have met and read on the internet.

On the other hand, the motivations attributed to the Antifa, Boogaloos Bois and looters are not shared by most blues. The red may run in circles and attribute these motivations to blues, but they are entirely wrong in being obsessed by them.

If you wish to remain willfully ignorant I can't stop you.

[pbrower2a]

(07-20-2020, 12:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 06:04 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: New technology often gets put to perverse uses. Inexpensive video equipment as recording devices and playback devices became the conduits for child pornography. Computers and wire transfers can be programmed to do large-scale embezzlement. Firearms... what could be more obvious? The automobile was the perfect device for hit-and-run offenses... do an armed robbery in a neighboring state or near-neighboring state, getting to the scene of the crime and returning to one's own state where one lives off the loot. In one's own state one behaves oneself and does nothing to be prosecuted there. Bad people are as adept as putting technology to use as the rest of us.   

It's J. Edgar Hoover who put an end to the practice of offenders crossing state lines to get away with crimes because they happened to be 'clean' in one state. Bonnie and Clyde did that. To a certain extent Dillinger (still the most hated man in Indiana) did that. They typically lived off the proceeds of their crimes in one state in which they did nothing illegal. J. Edgar Hoover made the most of a federal law that made a federal offense of crossing a state line to avoid criminal prosecution. Once the offender was in federal custody for a comparatively minor crime, the crook could be sent to the state of choosing by the FBI for prosecution. So you live in Wisconsin but commit your big crimes in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana? The FBI will let the several states practically bid on who gets him based upon the severity of offenses. If the crime is likely to get one a very long stay in prison or a short stay followed by a few thousand volts in the electric chair... then a case nearly certain to lead to the electric chair wins. There were other tricks, too. Capone was ultimately convicted not of bootlegging and murders but of federal tax evasion. Kidnapping for ransom was an easy way to make money as a criminal until the Feds clamped down.

The 1930's was the peak decade for executions. While Governor of New York State, FDR had signed some death warrants. He never was exactly 'nice' to offenders. Let's remember also that the movie studios followed the lead of the politicians in showing criminal offenders as scum who ended up perhaps like "Rocky Sullivan" (James Cagney) in Angels with Dirty Faces , initially living the high life until their lives take the well-deserved end... the electric chair. Note well that in that movie a crooked attorney (played by none other than Humphrey Bogart) who gets complicity in the crimes of "Rocky" ends up dead in a gangland murder. 

So the outlaws who were heroes in some misguided circles ended up in prison, killed by law enforcement, or 'fried' in the electric chair. That's one way to lose relevance. It's also telling that American propaganda of World War II did much to compare Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo to such gangsters. OK, Mussolini would die of a firing squad after being caught by Resistance forces taking over in northern Italy before the US Army got to him; Hitler offed himself in a bunker a couple of days before the Soviet Army got into his bunker; Tojo would be hanged and not electrocuted. But you get the general idea. 

OK... running afoul of Donald Trump politically isn't close to the sort of offense as the sort of offense that liberals usually find easy to treat as a public horror -- such as human trafficking. Like genuine despots who get away with killing those who run afoul of them, Trump sees dissent as a great crime. Our system never has worked that way and, so far as I can tell, never will. Checks and balances are far better defenses of human rights and civil liberties than is the public love of liberty. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Satan Hussein, and al-Baghdadi never let checks and balances get in the way of their agenda.  Checks and balances do far more to stop a Donald Trump who tries to rule as a despot than a Barack Obama who honors the niceties of the rule of law. 

You tell me, though -- which bleeding-heart liberal politician is giving sanctuary to outlaws reminiscent of  Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Frank and Jesse James, etc.? Several of our most liberal politicians got their political starts as crime-busting DA's who saw no political significance in suppressing drug trafficking, child abuse, spouse abuse, and perhaps auto-theft rings. I am a liberal and I was offended when a relative of mine (by marriage) bragged about buying some stolen tires... in the presence of someone whose car was stolen and my father whose car was broken into for its expensive radio. 

It might surprise you that the criminals are generally apolitical. They simply prefer weak, lax, or incompetent law enforcement that allows them to get away with their crimes... or think themselves smarter than some "dumb cop".

Yep. The criminals prefer law enforcement to weak, lax, incompetent and pretty much powerless. You're smart enough to figure that out and understand that as well but you're not wise enough to associate it with what Black Lives Matter is up to and trying to get away with doing right now. Well, we are wise enough to see it for what it is and vote accordingly.

Police forces can be effective without being brutal. It is in fact weak, lax, incompetent, and corrupt law enforcement that becomes brutal, using the power behind the Badge to favor one set of crooks over another... the ones who pay them bribes against those that don't pay them bribes. We know how that goes. A well-connected crook is left to his own devices, and a petty crook can be beaten at will -- perhaps on behalf of those crooks who want no competition. 

Black Lives Matters seems remarkably moderate. It's not anti-police; it is against incompetent and corrupt police work. It is anything but pro-crime. A Black Lives Matters group is informal enough that the police could infiltrate it. The issue isn't that people have any right to commit crimes; it is that the police have the responsibility to bring charged offenders safely to the judgment of law. 

What would most of the folks in Black Lives Matter do if they saw an overt crime? They'd call a cop! It is not about crooks getting away with crime. George Floyd looks more like a victim of police incompetence and dereliction of duty than of malign intent.

[Eric the Green]

(07-19-2020, 11:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 04:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, Antifa recently destroyed a police precinct and a bunch of other government related property (assets) in Minneapolis...

Antifa, or the Boogaloo Bois?  Last I knew, the people pushing destruction were not leaving calling cards.  I've been assuming their propaganda about their respective objectives are accurate.  You seem to prefer to pervert the stated motivations.

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: and Black Live Matter is now  in the process of imposing its values on the rest of Minneapolis by defunding and further weakening what's left of its police force.

Yes, after centuries of murder and prejudiced oppression.  The police have resisted reforming their violent racist habits, and you can only get results by replacing rather than reforming them.  Are you in favor or racist oppression, of a hostile relationship with the community you are supposed to protect?

Bob, I'm going to be associated with racist oppression whether it's true or not at this point. You seem to be stuck on the Boogaloo Bois and seem pretty  clueless about much larger and more powerful  groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter.  I think it's very clear that liberals don't care whether what they say about other people and what they believe is actually true or not at this point. I get it, you've already committed and you can't go backwards at this point.  I can't touch you but I can touch one of you anytime time that I want at this point.   BTW, when we start responding to the Left and start playing tit for tat with the Left and the Left starts finding itself at odds with a much more powerful American  version of their own cancel culture their reign will come to an ugly and brutal end. I don't know who taught you that America can't be as mean or meaner and less sympathetic than the Left towards the Left these days but who ever did was either a fool or a liar.

"cancel culture"

I didn't quite catch this term until I heard Donald Trump use it in his interview with Chris Wallace yesterday.

It appears you have certainly become a card-carrying member of the Trump cult, Classic, using the catchphrases only such a member would use. In your posts, you are just echoing Trump's rants and using his terms.





Trump is a powerful personality, determined to impose his own ego and his own created version of reality upon his country. We'd better make sure he loses. Many people like Classic Xer can be fooled and charmed into obedience.

The mortality rate is listed here under deaths per 1M
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The USA has done more testing than Europe, but Trump said "they don't test." Altogether the EU has done about 33 million tests, and the USA 49 million. Per capita, the USA has not done the most tests compared to some other countries.

But the USA has far more cases than the EU. That's about 1,394,000 cases in the EU, 3,899,000 cases in the USA. Proportionately, the EU has fewer cases per tests than the USA.

Trump the Bump is proud of his so-called accomplishments. Deregulation, tax cuts, increasing arms for the military. Those are not accomplishments. They are destructions. This is all Reaganomics; nothing new at all.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Not really. The confederates and the current day reds are both fighting for the old values of their time which include racism and opposes equality. The old values don't do so well once the crisis heart starts.

You can try to turn things upside down, but to do so you have to attribute false motivations and try to make the people so ill described fit your descriptions. You can lie to yourself, but trying to lie to people who know themselves is kinda futile.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 05:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I get my news from the major costal organizations, including CNN, the AP and MSNBC.  I also visit YouTube frequently, and pick up many another point of view.  I take these far more seriously than an obviously partisan rogue.

I see in these the motivations of the four organizations.  The Antifa, anti fascists, opponents of the KKK and Neo Nazi, are willing to go violent if their opposition does and has.  Black lives matter, who thinks black lives matter, opposes the centuries old racist violent tendencies of the bad cops.  The Boogaloo Bois think that the establishment has failed, that only violence could correct the wrongs.  These are basically Marxists without Marx, very similar in philosophy, but avoiding the reputation, language and history of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.  They latch onto any protest on many topics and attempt to promote violence without caring much about what is being protested.  Finally there are looters, more financially motivated than political, but see opportunity in exploiting political moments for their own gain.

In the simplest of worlds, people would have only one motivation.  Everyone could be dropped in one and only one slot.  I am quite willing to admit this is not the simplest of worlds.  While each of these motives will gather those who support it, there could easily be those who follow more than one.

I myself have not bothered with Antifa, endorse Black Lives Matter, and think policing should be endorsed against the Boogaloo Bois and looters.  No matter what name you use, all four motivations exist.  I see most who would consider themselves blue concur.

Now there are some reds that twist these motives.  I remember one incident where the local red activists decided that a family of tourists was secretly violent Antifa activists, and ‘defended’ the community from the tourists by cutting down enough trees that they could not leave.  The family was rescued by people who used chainsaws to gather firewood and the local police.  Make the world safe from family campers?  The reds were entirely wrong about the motivations of the people harassed.

Now I have no reason to throw away the informations gathered from the major news organizations away in favor of similar twisted information from a partisan fanatic.  For some reason Classic has a tendency to get his motivations confused.  This is no surprise.  As he cannot deal with the real blue motivations he makes up straw men that he can deal with.  That is his major trick, a fairly useless one.

Dude, I don't care about what you do, which group you support or go along with for whatever reason or whose values (the Boogaloo Bois, Black Lives Matter, Antifa, Neo Nazi, KKK, Woke or whatever else ) or government preference that you end up dying under at this point. It's pretty clear to me that you have no values of your own or nothing of personal value that's worth defending or dying for and worth passing on to the next American generation and future American generation at this point.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 11:44 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Not really.  The confederates and the current day reds are both fighting for the old values of their time which include racism and opposes equality.  The old values don't do so well once the crisis heart starts.

You can try to turn things upside down, but to do so you have to attribute false motivations and try to make the people so ill described fit your descriptions.  You can lie to yourself, but trying to lie to people who know themselves is kinda futile.

Nope. The old values didn't succeed during the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas Revolution, the Mexican American war, the American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, the Great Depression, World War II, The Korean War or the Cold War. You don't seem to be able to recognize the values, the beliefs, the philosophy or the country that they're related to that I'm associated with these days. I'm associated with a country that can turn the liberal world upside down and watch as it self destructs and largely destroys itself. Yes, I agree that you can lie to yourselves and call everyone who disagrees with you or opposes you racists or baby killers or fascist pigs and I understand that trying to do it with people who know themselves and know each other pretty well is futile at this point.

[Eric the Green]

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Why are you defending them, then?

You copy Trump so much. Here again you reverse what I said about you, and say it about me. But I am sure that the original version is correct.

Just like the famous "fake news" that Trump and his Russian backers spread on the internet, as it was called, and then he picks it up and calls everything "fake news" that he doesn't like hearing.

"The old values didn't succeed during the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas Revolution, the Mexican American war, the American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, the Great Depression, World War II, The Korean War or the Cold War."

That's right. That why the old values which you represent won't succeed in this current 4T either. Your definition of "American" is really "old values" but you don't admit it.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 12:47 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Oh?  Most of those are not crisis wars, do not reflect the nature of 4Ts.  You believe we are still ruled by kings, part of the Commonwealth, a colony of England?  You believe the Confederates won the Civil War, and the slave owners still dominate US politics?  You believe Hitler won World War II, and that Hitler's heirs still rule the world?

That is the sort of revisionist history I expect from you.  Nothing to do with what actually happened.  Motivations of your opponent totally misunderstood.  You have to make yourself willfully ignorant to promote the old values. 

I gave you a long list of wars that were fought against old world values that America won and you come back at me with this nonsense.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-20-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I gave you a long  list of wars that were fought against old world values that America won and you come back at me with this nonsense.

Which is why I deleted the post just before you responded. A clearer version seemed possible.

The non crisis war qualification still stands. They say little about how 4Ts work.

The American Civil War doesn’t really count either. While Britain almost became involved, it never did. The American Civil War was not a war fought against an old world power.

But the Revolution and World War II do count as wars fought against the old world for reasons we believe in, though you have to admit there were economic reasons too. In the Revolution we were trying to free ourselves from colonial imperialism. In World War II, we were trying to keep the trade lanes open, to become the superpower we became.

But in fighting against kings, slaves and dictators, we were fighting with the arrow of progress, for an advance in equality, democracy and human rights. The old values lost, became abandoned following the wars fought.

How that makes you optimistic that the old values will stand this time around escapes me. In the crisis heart, equality, democracy and human rights come to the fore. Keeping minorities unequal and not valuing the preservation of life puts you one the wrong end of things.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Why are you defending them, then?

You copy Trump so much. Here again you reverse what I said about you, and say it about me. But I am sure that the original version is correct.

Just like the famous "fake news" that Trump and his Russian backers spread on the internet, as it was called, and then he picks it up and calls everything "fake news" that he doesn't like hearing.

"The old values didn't succeed during the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas Revolution, the Mexican American war, the American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, the Great Depression, World War II, The Korean War or the Cold War."

That's right. That why the old values which you represent won't succeed in this current 4T either. Your definition of "American" is really "old values" but you don't admit it.

I don't copy Trump and I doubt Trump copies me either. We're just similar in many ways. So, what makes you think that I'm defending the Confederates? Me, I happen to believe American history is important myself. Like I said, do as you please in you areas but be prepared to die for doing it outside your areas. Personally, I don't care if Minneapolis and St. Paul turn to shit. Of the two, I'm more fond of St.Paul and view it as the more valuable of the two cities. Do you have a problem if the Americans who live in Minnesota decide to save one and leave the other to rot?

[Bob Butler 54]

There is a very long term way of looking at things which is laid out in the book The Cousin's Wars.  It proposes that the English Civil War started the split between what has become the modern red blue conflict.  There was an aristocratic, rural, high church cavalier faction, and a democratic, urban, low church roundhead faction.  The first immigrated to the southern states when they were losing, and the last immigrated to the north.  Both cultures made significant contributions, each in their own way, to how America evolved.

Still, it is generally the Roundhead pattern where equality, human rights and democracy is pushed forward.  The roundhead urban faction has wound up pushing the new values, the cavalier rural faction the old.

I suspect this has some bearing for why you are an advocate for the southern, rural, racist, red perspective of today.

Now I can't say that the cavalier culture hasn't contributed to America.  They just wind up supporting the racist violent element, which is a disadvantage when the 4T comes around.  They tend to get smoked.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 05:01 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I gave you a long  list of wars that were fought against old world values that America won and you come back at me with this nonsense.

Which is why I deleted the post just before you responded.  A clearer version seemed possible.

The non crisis war qualification still stands.  They say little about how 4Ts work.

The American Civil War doesn’t really count either.  While Britain almost became involved, it never did.  The American Civil War was not a war fought against an old world power.

But the Revolution and World War II do count as wars fought against the old world for reasons we believe in, though you have to admit there were economic reasons too.  In the Revolution we were trying to free ourselves from colonial imperialism.  In World War II, we were trying to keep the trade lanes open, to become the superpower we became.

But in fighting against kings, slaves and dictators, we were fighting with the arrow of progress, for an advance in equality, democracy and human rights.  The old values lost, became abandoned following the wars fought.

How that makes you optimistic that the old values will stand this time around escapes me.  In the crisis heart, equality, democracy and human rights come to the fore.  Keeping minorities unequal and not valuing the preservation of life puts you one the wrong end of things.

Yes. We forced the hand of the Japanese by imposing a trade embargo on American oil exports that cut off their primary oil supply and opened ourselves up to an attack by the Japanese. What do you mean the Civil War doesn't count as a crisis war? It's the worst in terms of overall casualties and the most pivotal war that America has fought to date. We wouldn't have been able to win World II without the full support of American South. What you don't seem to realize or accept is that America remained intact after the Civil War and went on to win future American wars including two world war together as one nation. You forget, the old world values that the Confederacy was fighting to retain included age old slavery which was completely abandoned by the South after the war. Right now, we are in the middle of a cold civil war with the Left. Now, unless you had an epiphany and switched your political allegiance, you are on the same side as the Left. As far as I can see, the Left still represents the old world values associated with the Cold War and still seeks power over everyone by gaining control over government these days. All I can say, if that issue can't be resolved politically, it's going to be resolved by war which history should have taught you. One other thing, I'm on the side that represents life and you're on the side that views life as a choice.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-20-2020, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: There is a very long term way of looking at things which is laid out in the book The Cousin's Wars.  It proposes that the English Civil War started the split between what has become the modern red blue conflict.  There was an aristocratic, rural, high church cavalier faction, and a democratic, urban, low church roundhead faction.  The first immigrated to the southern states when they were losing, and the last immigrated to the north.  Both cultures made significant contributions, each in their own way, to how America evolved.

Still, it is generally the Roundhead pattern where equality, human rights and democracy is pushed forward.  The roundhead urban faction has wound up pushing the new values, the cavalier rural faction the old.

I suspect this has some bearing for why you are an advocate for the southern, rural, racist, red perspective of today.

Now I can't say that the cavalier culture hasn't contributed to America.  They just wind up supporting the racist violent element, which is a disadvantage when the 4T comes around.  They tend to get smoked.

How would you plan to eat during the Liberal war with Rural America? How do you keep Suburban America from siding with Rural America? How do you keep what's left of Urban America from leaving and siding with Suburban America and Rural America? You're right, Liberal America which ain't all that liberal or all that democratic these days either would end up getting smoked by America.

[Eric the Green]

(07-20-2020, 10:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: There is a very long term way of looking at things which is laid out in the book The Cousin's Wars.  It proposes that the English Civil War started the split between what has become the modern red blue conflict.  There was an aristocratic, rural, high church cavalier faction, and a democratic, urban, low church roundhead faction.  The first immigrated to the southern states when they were losing, and the last immigrated to the north.  Both cultures made significant contributions, each in their own way, to how America evolved.

Still, it is generally the Roundhead pattern where equality, human rights and democracy is pushed forward.  The roundhead urban faction has wound up pushing the new values, the cavalier rural faction the old.

I suspect this has some bearing for why you are an advocate for the southern, rural, racist, red perspective of today.

Now I can't say that the cavalier culture hasn't contributed to America.  They just wind up supporting the racist violent element, which is a disadvantage when the 4T comes around.  They tend to get smoked.

How would you plan to eat during the Liberal war with Rural America? How do you keep Suburban America from siding with Rural America? How do keep what's left of Urban America from leaving and siding with Suburban America and Rural America? You're right, Liberal America which ain't all that liberal or all that democratic either these days would end up getting smoked by America.

Liberal has gotten more Liberal as conservative has gotten more crazy conservative, and some suburbs are more diverse and thus more Democratic.

CA supplies most of the nation already. We'll be fine, unless too much of CA farm country refuses to go along with liberal America. Reds hate CA, but they forget how much they depend on us.

And, of course, blue America imports more. We have access to the sea and you guys don't.

You like American history. Do you remember which Jacksonian Democrat fought a war to conquer the SF Bay Area? Did you know that this president had a 22-2 horoscope score? There's even a street named after him in SF known for hosting a lot of gay stuff.

[Eric the Green]

(07-20-2020, 05:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Why are you defending them, then?

You copy Trump so much. Here again you reverse what I said about you, and say it about me. But I am sure that the original version is correct.

Just like the famous "fake news" that Trump and his Russian backers spread on the internet, as it was called, and then he picks it up and calls everything "fake news" that he doesn't like hearing.

"The old values didn't succeed during the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas Revolution, the Mexican American war, the American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, the Great Depression, World War II, The Korean War or the Cold War."

That's right. That why the old values which you represent won't succeed in this current 4T either. Your definition of "American" is really "old values" but you don't admit it.

I don't copy Trump and I doubt Trump copies me either. We're just similar in many ways. So, what makes you think that I'm defending the Confederates? Me, I happen to believe  American history is important myself. Like I said, do as you please in you areas but be prepared to die for doing it outside your areas. Personally, I don't care if Minneapolis and St. Paul turn to shit. Of the two, I'm more fond of St.Paul and view it as  the more valuable of the two cities. Do you have a problem if the Americans who live in Minnesota decide to save one and leave the other to rot?

You copy Trump. That is clear. I think you are defending the confederates because of what you said. Not only do you not write very well, you don't even read what you write very well.

You guys will have no say over which blue cities are saved. You still don't live in a red state either. Minnesota is going back to stronger blue this time.