The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-29-2020, 02:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The cops don't have a license or the freedom to pull someone over and kill them for any reason. Our cops aren't a bunch of gangsters.

Unfortunately, a few of them are. In some parts of the country, the police immunity from prosecution coupled with the lynching tradition of racist suppression is still in place. This isn't going to stand in an age where cameras are common. If you were willing to punt the racist tradition, to avoid defending or denying racism, it would be less painful for you. Some parts of the existing culture well deserve to die.

[Eric the Green]

(08-29-2020, 02:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 04:23 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

Why do you say this?

Quote:I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend.

I don't trust Tucker Carlson as a reporter; he is biased.

By quantity, this may not seem like much of a problem, if your figures are right. But it happens often enough that blacks are afraid to walk the streets for fear of being killed by police. Also, racial profiling causes many to be pulled over, and the fear that they may be shot or otherwise hurt or killed is always there. And this is threatening, damaging and hurtful to black people. Because of this, black people are angry and on edge about these frequent and continuing incidents.

The way I look at it, if police can pull over and kill somebody for no reason, as happens to many black people, that is a violation of my rights. Chief of Staff Mark Meadows said this week on PBS that he is not black, so he can't relate to how black people feel about this threat. But that just shows racial bias. We are all human beings, so it is not hard to relate to the threat of being stopped and killed by police for no reason. And it happens to whites too, as Michael Bell personally related about his son in 2004 in Kenosha tonight on Democracy Now. If police can do this, and get away with it (as they have usually done up until now), then I am concerned that we might live in a police state. Many share my concern.

Quote:You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife  and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

Political alliances are necessary in order to accomplish anything. So white liberals and black liberals must join together and work together and support each other's aims and concerns in order to win. And a liberal philosophy joins us together in mutual understanding.

The cops don't have a license or the freedom to pull someone over and kill them for any reason. Our cops aren't a bunch of gangsters. You often portray them that way but they aren't that way at all. Dude, every time you open that dumb WHITE mouth of yours and talk like you're some dumb street nigger/cracker who doesn't seem to know any better than they hear from some dumb street slug/ deadbeat or seem to care about anything important who doesn't seem to have an understanding of values, sense of values or a sense of morality, all you do is lower yourself and decrease your importance (value) and influence further in the eyes of those who do, like you and your politicians are doing right now.

ha ha! I am a cool hip dude and I talk "like a dumb street nigger." I can rap too! A much better morality than pro-confederate fascism, which you espouse. I'll take it!

Quote:Now, if you want to refute then go ahead and refute as I continue to do what I can do here or any where else in this country as I'm proving every day. How long did it take me to reverse the course and completely turn the tables, eliminate your protections and turn liberal into a bad word. About a year or two maybe? So, what was the odds of someone like me coming in green and being able to shift/swing/disrupt/disorganize a rather large liberal website and force the hand of an absent forum owner. Like I said, you are talking to an old American rebel/ liberator/ defender who will blow your head off and terrorize your politicians if we have to go there and I hope Barrack Obama and Nancy Pelosi are reading this because fair is fair in our country and she isn't immune and neither is Barrack or his beautiful wife. Two can play the same game as Trump has proven and if liberal based shit ( I don't care how ugly or pretty or sexy or wealthy or how well educated the liberal shit is these days) continues then they're going to have to accept the consequences of being directly associated with all the liberal shit that we see and accept personal financial responsibility for all of it. I'm sorry but the Liberals are the only people I know that can make millions of dollars talking shit out their ass and any business who listens to them, bends to their will or goes along with them deserves to lose millions/billions of dollars.

You guys have turned liberal into a dirty word for 40 years or more, but we're still here and we might win this time. Ya just neva know, man!

You guys have imposed a trillions of dollars in debt on the USA, with the expressed purpose of preventing government spending for social and welfare programs that help people of color. So you guys are the ones who may find yourselves paying the bill when we raise taxes on you, which is the only prudent thing to do.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 02:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 02:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The cops don't have a license or the freedom to pull someone over and kill them for any reason. Our cops aren't a bunch of gangsters.

Unfortunately, a few of them are.  In some parts of the country, the police immunity from prosecution coupled with the lynching tradition of racist suppression is still in place.  This isn't going to stand in an age where cameras are common.  If you were willing to punt the racist tradition, to avoid defending or denying racism, it would be less painful for you.  Some parts of the existing culture well deserve to die.

We'll always have some bad apples. You should know that by now. You should also know that blaming all for the action of one is wrong as well. Are you a clueless kid or an elder adult? Unless you like being viewed and treated like a clueless kid, I'd suggest you figure out a way to speak like an adult to an older adult. I associate systematic racism with the past. If you had paid attention, you would have noticed that two of the four cops involved with George Floyd were minorities. I'm going to give you a hint, George Floyd wasn't an angel and the black guy shot in the back in Kenosha wasn't  a saint either. With all the violence that we have seen between people of all colors and cops of all colors, we've seen one incident involving another WHITE cop and a known black criminal who resisted arrest who told police he had a knife in a car with three kids in it. Can you read minds of fucked up individuals who violent histories? I'd like to ask the Liberal prosecutor and the Liberal judge that very question in a court room with live cover in front of a national audience and see how long the two of them survive afterwards. Two can play the same game Bob. The question is are you prepared to play the same game with the American right today. So, how long do you think its going to take us to organize and do what you do here and every where else the elitist Democrats live these days. You're small potatoes. You're fortunate that we're not interested in small potatoes. You were a small potato with bigger potatoes above you at one time. Now, you are big potato here but you are still a small potato to me. It's almost down right unfair considering how much more of an advantage that I have over you and the others here at this point.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 02:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You guys have turned liberal into a dirty word for 40 years or more, but we're still here and we might win this time. Ya just neva know, man!

You guys have imposed a trillions of dollars in debt on the USA, with the expressed purpose of preventing government spending for social and welfare programs that help people of color. So you guys are the ones who may find yourselves paying the bill when we raise taxes on you, which is the only prudent thing to do.

You guys did that yourself. All I did was assist by being living bait and convince others that Liberal's were/are no good. So, here we are, probably on the verge of when the rounding up and shooting starts. Do you believe in Destiny? I've been told that God works in mysterious ways. So, what do you think your life is going to be like when we are REAL enemies and your politicians and lawmakers have no power or authority over me and most of the country? Wars suck buddy and wars with no rules or borders suck the worst and that's the war you're going to find yourself stuck smack dab in the middle of because that's what I see happening if the shit we see with the Liberal's continues. Nancy seems pretty nervous lately and a bit more unhinged about the gall of our President and our politicians and our strength to hold firm as group and resolve our differences with a Liberal cult. You're a member of the Liberal cult. I can tell that you've never been in the hood and seen how unproductive and unlawful the hood still is today.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 02:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 02:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The cops don't have a license or the freedom to pull someone over and kill them for any reason. Our cops aren't a bunch of gangsters.

Unfortunately, a few of them are.  In some parts of the country, the police immunity from prosecution coupled with the lynching tradition of racist suppression is still in place.  This isn't going to stand in an age where cameras are common.  If you were willing to punt the racist tradition, to avoid defending or denying racism, it would be less painful for you.  Some parts of the existing culture well deserve to die.

Like I said, what Democrats do, doesn't matter to us. If Democrats remove immunity from their police, that's fine with us and if the Democrats no longer have a police force as result that's fine with us as well. I'm cool with Democrats fucking Democrats and blaming Republicans like they've been doing for the last 40 years. I agree, parts of the existing culture deserves to die and the Democrats have been doing a great job at digging their own graves as they've spent years listening to foreigners and serving foreign interests and sucking up to foreign institutions vs paying attention to the damage of their policies and listening to their own people.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 02:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 02:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 04:23 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

Why do you say this?

Quote:I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend.

I don't trust Tucker Carlson as a reporter; he is biased.

By quantity, this may not seem like much of a problem, if your figures are right. But it happens often enough that blacks are afraid to walk the streets for fear of being killed by police. Also, racial profiling causes many to be pulled over, and the fear that they may be shot or otherwise hurt or killed is always there. And this is threatening, damaging and hurtful to black people. Because of this, black people are angry and on edge about these frequent and continuing incidents.

The way I look at it, if police can pull over and kill somebody for no reason, as happens to many black people, that is a violation of my rights. Chief of Staff Mark Meadows said this week on PBS that he is not black, so he can't relate to how black people feel about this threat. But that just shows racial bias. We are all human beings, so it is not hard to relate to the threat of being stopped and killed by police for no reason. And it happens to whites too, as Michael Bell personally related about his son in 2004 in Kenosha tonight on Democracy Now. If police can do this, and get away with it (as they have usually done up until now), then I am concerned that we might live in a police state. Many share my concern.

Quote:You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife  and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

Political alliances are necessary in order to accomplish anything. So white liberals and black liberals must join together and work together and support each other's aims and concerns in order to win. And a liberal philosophy joins us together in mutual understanding.

The cops don't have a license or the freedom to pull someone over and kill them for any reason. Our cops aren't a bunch of gangsters. You often portray them that way but they aren't that way at all. Dude, every time you open that dumb WHITE mouth of yours and talk like you're some dumb street nigger/cracker who doesn't seem to know any better than they hear from some dumb street slug/ deadbeat or seem to care about anything important who doesn't seem to have an understanding of values, sense of values or a sense of morality, all you do is lower yourself and decrease your importance (value) and influence further in the eyes of those who do, like you and your politicians are doing right now.

ha ha! I am a cool hip dude and I talk "like a dumb street nigger." I can rap too! A much better morality than pro-confederate fascism, which you espouse. I'll take it!

Quote:Now, if you want to refute then go ahead and refute as I continue to do what I can do here or any where else in this country as I'm proving every day. How long did it take me to reverse the course and completely turn the tables, eliminate your protections and turn liberal into a bad word. About a year or two maybe? So, what was the odds of someone like me coming in green and being able to shift/swing/disrupt/disorganize a rather large liberal website and force the hand of an absent forum owner. Like I said, you are talking to an old American rebel/ liberator/ defender who will blow your head off and terrorize your politicians if we have to go there and I hope Barrack Obama and Nancy Pelosi are reading this because fair is fair in our country and she isn't immune and neither is Barrack or his beautiful wife. Two can play the same game as Trump has proven and if liberal based shit ( I don't care how ugly or pretty or sexy or wealthy or how well educated the liberal shit is these days) continues then they're going to have to accept the consequences of being directly associated with all the liberal shit that we see and accept personal financial responsibility for all of it. I'm sorry but the Liberals are the only people I know that can make millions of dollars talking shit out their ass and any business who listens to them, bends to their will or goes along with them deserves to lose millions/billions of dollars.

You guys have turned liberal into a dirty word for 40 years or more, but we're still here and we might win this time. Ya just neva know, man!

You guys have imposed a trillions of dollars in debt on the USA, with the expressed purpose of preventing government spending for social and welfare programs that help people of color. So you guys are the ones who may find yourselves paying the bill when we raise taxes on you, which is the only prudent thing to do.

I'm sure you're cool with anything hip that's related to pop culture. You have to be able to relate to young people since that seems to be your primary market of interest.

[Eric the Green]

The Classic Xers of our country do not have the sense of solidarity or community with the country at large. This guy Wade Davis presents a stunning and compassionate rebuttal to the Classic Xer/Republican philosophy: that having a common interest in the country rather than looking on social programs and necessary collective action as weakness and lack of freedom, is the reason for the current decline of the USA and the rapid approach of the end of the American era.

It is obvious to me, as Wade Davis says, that it was not the era of the Grateful Dead that has brought about this corrosive emphasis on self-reliance, but the era of Ronald Reagan to Donald Trump. And this decade we have the chance and the challenge to reverse this decline and inequality, and restart progress; in which case the USA can continue to be a positive influence in the world as we had been before Reagan; as we were in the days of Lincoln and FDR.

Interesting that the word "Unravelling" is first up in describing this video, since what we know as the Unravelling or 3T was the time when this self-reliance Reaganomics trickle-down policy was most dominant.

Our 4T is the cold civil war. One side must win, or achieve political dominance and/or forge a new consensus of social democracy, or we will fail as a nation and in this 4T.

[Eric the Green]

(08-29-2020, 05:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm sure you're cool with anything hip that's related to pop culture. You have to be able to relate to young people since that seems to be your primary market of interest.

Well, not really, speaking for myself and my market. But it's true to some extent that we need the millennials to power us who are on the left side of politics to victory, so some interest in their culture is not a bad idea on my part.

I am very discriminating about that, though, which means I don't relate to a lot of it, but still think the sixties/70s pop culture was superior. But when someone like Justin Bieber or Owl City/Carly Rae Jepsen comes along, or Portugal The Man, or Pharrel Williams' "Happy," I'm right on board, regardless of race, color, creed or gender.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-29-2020, 03:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We'll always have some bad apples. You should know that by now. You should also know that blaming all for the action of one is wrong as well.

There are likely more good cops than bad.  In order to have law and order you need good cops.

With the KKK and Neo Nazi you get Antifa.  I like the violence about as much as I like the bad cops.  But how do you make them all go away?

With the Black Lives Matter movement come the Boogaloo Bois.  I am for the first, but against the last.  But you will always have some bad apples?  Do you shrug and accept that?  Or do you demonstrate that the combination of democracy and capitalism can still work.

If you are going to invite in the militia, you will get insane teenagers who commit murder with long arms.  Oh, well.  We'll always have bad apples?  What are a few murders here and there?

The elites don't employ violence.  Instead they buy politicians.  The effect is vaguely the same.  One group gets resources and status over another.  Us and them.

I have noted how humans evolved during the hunter gatherer period.  Violence and oppression of other groups was cost effective.  As a result we have an instinct to divide people into us and them and kill, oppress, and take resources from them.  All of the above can stand as examples.  Every one of them.  Bad cops, the KKK, the Neo Nazi, Antifa, the Boogallo Bois, the Trump loyalists, the elites, all of them.  You divide people and oppress those who are not like you with violence.

I have noted that since the Information Age, somewhere between the invention of machine guns to the creation of nukes, violence became a non cost effective way of solving problems.  Many have come to the conclusion that violence is a last resort, that you exhaust all other means before you fall back on it.  Insurgent proxy wars and nukes will do that.  Machine guns will do that.  Heck, even a sharp knife will do that.

But some people still let their hunter gatherer genes take over.  If you are obsessed enough with violence, you might say good.  There always will be bad apples.  There will always be us and them.  Live with it.  We are a violent species.  Live with it.  If you won't, eat lead.  I am better than you at violence.  Me us, you them.  Eat lead and die.

Fourth Turnings are a time when a few of the greatest problems facing the culture are eliminated.  Kings.  Colonial imperialism.  Slaves.  Dictators.  Now racist violent policing as well as much of systematic prejudice has risen to the top.  COVID has risen to the top.  All of the groups that are enthralled by violence to achieve status, wealth or power have risen near the top.  Global warming has risen at least to the level of campaign promises, but it is a bit early to celebrate that one.

Thus, I am not impressed by an obsessed with violence advocate of the old values.  In a new birth of freedom, violence may become necessary.  With or without violence, it has always been the side favoring equality, democracy, human rights and I may as well include justice that comes up on top.  It will be less necessary to revert to violence in an age where non violence and legislation are the more common way to transform the culture.

I know you are obsessed with violence.  A lot of conservatives that are attracted to S&H are.  The idea that lots of violence comes every four score and seven years attracts people who are close to their hunter gatherer passions.  Like Game of Thrones suggested, it is time to break the wheel.  It is time for this to stop.  It is time for a crisis in some ways more profound than the more violent prior crises.

Not that we are there yet.  There are other unresolved issues, a need for more transformational turnings.  Limiting population may be in the on deck circle.

But this one will be sufficient.

[beechnut79]

(08-29-2020, 07:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Classic Xers of our country do not have the sense of solidarity or community with the country at large. This guy Wade Davis presents a stunning and compassionate rebuttal to the Classic Xer/Republican philosophy: that having a common interest in the country rather than looking on social programs and necessary collective action as weakness and lack of freedom, is the reason for the current decline of the USA and the rapid approach of the end of the American era.

It is obvious to me, as Wade Davis says, that it was not the era of the Grateful Dead that has brought about this corrosive emphasis on self-reliance, but the era of Ronald Reagan to Donald Trump. And this decade we have the chance and the challenge to reverse this decline and inequality, and restart progress; in which case the USA can continue to be a positive influence in the world as we had been before Reagan; as we were in the days of Lincoln and FDR.

Interesting that the word "Unravelling" is first up in describing this video, since what we know as the Unravelling or 3T was the time when this self-reliance Reaganomics trickle-down policy was most dominant.

Our 4T is the cold civil war. One side must win, or achieve political dominance and/or forge a new consensus of social democracy, or we will fail as a nation and in this 4T.

But didn’t so many of us at the time drink the Reagan Kool-Aid?  So many of us felt that RWR was the best thing to come along since sliced bread. Another way of saying that we have met the enemy and it is us?

[Eric the Green]

(08-29-2020, 08:22 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: But didn’t so many of us at the time drink the Reagan Kool-Aid?  So many of us felt that RWR was the best thing to come along since sliced bread. Another way of saying that we have met the enemy and it is us?

Well, I never felt that way. I was not grateful for THAT bread. But then, I was a CA teenager when he was elected governor in 1966. I met the enemy then, and he wasn't me.

Us Bay Area boomers, don'tcha know, couldn't vote and we hated him. But we grew up and helped turn the whole Bay Area deep blue. We almost swung the state for McGovern. We hoped we could turn the whole country blue too, but, we weren't typical of Classic Xer's Amerika.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 07:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Classic Xers of our country do not have the sense of solidarity or community with the country at large. This guy Wade Davis presents a stunning and compassionate rebuttal to the Classic Xer/Republican philosophy: that having a common interest in the country rather than looking on social programs and necessary collective action as weakness and lack of freedom, is the reason for the current decline of the USA and the rapid approach of the end of the American era.

It is obvious to me, as Wade Davis says, that it was not the era of the Grateful Dead that has brought about this corrosive emphasis on self-reliance, but the era of Ronald Reagan to Donald Trump. And this decade we have the chance and the challenge to reverse this decline and inequality, and restart progress; in which case the USA can continue to be a positive influence in the world as we had been before Reagan; as we were in the days of Lincoln and FDR.

Interesting that the word "Unravelling" is first up in describing this video, since what we know as the Unravelling or 3T was the time when this self-reliance Reaganomics trickle-down policy was most dominant.

Our 4T is the cold civil war. One side must win, or achieve political dominance and/or forge a new consensus of social democracy, or we will fail as a nation and in this 4T.

I guess we seem to be on the same page and seem to understand that the so called American Empire (50 American States and a group of protectorates) will not sustain without making some major changes here and some major cuts in foreign spending and changes of global policies that the Democrats and their global partners are vehemently opposed to these days. So, I'm sure he'll continue preaching the Liberal gospel and continue lecturing and probably do some condemning as we are transitioning to meet the challenges of the 21st century as a nation. He's right, Canada will be alright since the two of us occupy a large portion of a continent. Plus, Canada is large country with vast resources and a relatively small population with a small military and a small navy that Russia could defeat. Did you notice how many times he kind of contradicted himself during his lecture. I think its pretty clear that the Liberal side views COVID much differently than the conservatives view it. We obviously don't view it nearly as bad as the liberals.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 10:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 08:22 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: But didn’t so many of us at the time drink the Reagan Kool-Aid?  So many of us felt that RWR was the best thing to come along since sliced bread. Another way of saying that we have met the enemy and it is us?

Well, I never felt that way. I was not grateful for THAT bread. But then, I was a CA teenager when he was elected governor in 1966. I met the enemy then, and he wasn't me.

Us Bay Area boomers, don'tcha know, couldn't vote and we hated him. But we grew up and helped turn the whole Bay Area deep blue. We almost swung the state for McGovern. We hoped we could turn the whole country blue too, but, we weren't typical of Classic Xer's Amerika.

Well, you can say what you want to say about yourselves and your accomplishments but Classic's America will surpass whatever level that you think your group achieved by turning the Bay Area deep blue. We have some sorting out to do but once the sorting out process is complete or close enough to move forward as nation.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-29-2020, 07:58 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 03:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We'll always have some bad apples. You should know that by now. You should also know that blaming all for the action of one is wrong as well.

There are likely more good cops than bad.  In order to have law and order you need good cops.

With the KKK and Neo Nazi you get Antifa.  I like the violence about as much as I like the bad cops.  But how do you make them all go away?

With the Black Lives Matter movement come the Boogaloo Bois.  I am for the first, but against the last.  But you will always have some bad apples?  Do you shrug and accept that?  Or do you demonstrate that the combination of democracy and capitalism can still work.

If you are going to invite in the militia, you will get insane teenagers who commit murder with long arms.  Oh, well.  We'll always have bad apples?  What are a few murders here and there?

The elites don't employ violence.  Instead they buy politicians.  The effect is vaguely the same.  One group gets resources and status over another.  Us and them.

I have noted how humans evolved during the hunter gatherer period.  Violence and oppression of other groups was cost effective.  As a result we have an instinct to divide people into us and them and kill, oppress, and take resources from them.  All of the above can stand as examples.  Every one of them.  Bad cops, the KKK, the Neo Nazi, Antifa, the Boogallo Bois, the Trump loyalists, the elites, all of them.  You divide people and oppress those who are not like you with violence.

I have noted that since the Information Age, somewhere between the invention of machine guns to the creation of nukes, violence became a non cost effective way of solving problems.  Many have come to the conclusion that violence is a last resort, that you exhaust all other means before you fall back on it.  Insurgent proxy wars and nukes will do that.  Machine guns will do that.  Heck, even a sharp knife will do that.

But some people still let their hunter gatherer genes take over.  If you are obsessed enough with violence, you might say good.  There always will be bad apples.  There will always be us and them.  Live with it.  We are a violent species.  Live with it.  If you won't, eat lead.  I am better than you at violence.  Me us, you them.  Eat lead and die.

Fourth Turnings are a time when a few of the greatest problems facing the culture are eliminated.  Kings.  Colonial imperialism.  Slaves.  Dictators.  Now racist violent policing as well as much of systematic prejudice has risen to the top.  COVID has risen to the top.  All of the groups that are enthralled by violence to achieve status, wealth or power have risen near the top.  Global warming has risen at least to the level of campaign promises, but it is a bit early to celebrate that one.

Thus, I am not impressed by an obsessed with violence advocate of the old values.  In a new birth of freedom, violence may become necessary.  With or without violence, it has always been the side favoring equality, democracy, human rights and I may as well include justice that comes up on top.  It will be less necessary to revert to violence in an age where non violence and legislation are the more common way to transform the culture.

I know you are obsessed with violence.  A lot of conservatives that are attracted to S&H are.  The idea that lots of violence comes every four score and seven years attracts people who are close to their hunter gatherer passions.  Like Game of Thrones suggested, it is time to break the wheel.  It is time for this to stop.  It is time for a crisis in some ways more profound than the more violent prior crises.

Not that we are there yet.  There are other unresolved issues, a need for more transformational turnings.  Limiting population may be in the on deck circle.

But this one will be sufficient.

I'm not obsessed with violence but I can see more of it coming and so can most of the country which is why people are arming up. I've heard there's two million more gun owners than there was before all  the violence started. If you want to stick with wishful thinking and continue blaming racism for what we've seen so far it's alright with me but it's most likely not going to help you at the polls in November.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-30-2020, 04:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not obsessed with violence...

You don't think so?  Try not regularly threatening others with violence.  I am doubtful that you are capable of refraining yourself.

[pbrower2a]

(08-30-2020, 04:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 07:58 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 03:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We'll always have some bad apples. You should know that by now. You should also know that blaming all for the action of one is wrong as well.

There are likely more good cops than bad.  In order to have law and order you need good cops.

With the KKK and Neo Nazi you get Antifa.  I like the violence about as much as I like the bad cops.  But how do you make them all go away?

With the Black Lives Matter movement come the Boogaloo Bois.  I am for the first, but against the last.  But you will always have some bad apples?  Do you shrug and accept that?  Or do you demonstrate that the combination of democracy and capitalism can still work.

If you are going to invite in the militia, you will get insane teenagers who commit murder with long arms.  Oh, well.  We'll always have bad apples?  What are a few murders here and there?

The elites don't employ violence.  Instead they buy politicians.  The effect is vaguely the same.  One group gets resources and status over another.  Us and them.

I have noted how humans evolved during the hunter gatherer period.  Violence and oppression of other groups was cost effective.  As a result we have an instinct to divide people into us and them and kill, oppress, and take resources from them.  All of the above can stand as examples.  Every one of them.  Bad cops, the KKK, the Neo Nazi, Antifa, the Boogallo Bois, the Trump loyalists, the elites, all of them.  You divide people and oppress those who are not like you with violence.

I have noted that since the Information Age, somewhere between the invention of machine guns to the creation of nukes, violence became a non cost effective way of solving problems.  Many have come to the conclusion that violence is a last resort, that you exhaust all other means before you fall back on it.  Insurgent proxy wars and nukes will do that.  Machine guns will do that.  Heck, even a sharp knife will do that.

But some people still let their hunter gatherer genes take over.  If you are obsessed enough with violence, you might say good.  There always will be bad apples.  There will always be us and them.  Live with it.  We are a violent species.  Live with it.  If you won't, eat lead.  I am better than you at violence.  Me us, you them.  Eat lead and die.

Fourth Turnings are a time when a few of the greatest problems facing the culture are eliminated.  Kings.  Colonial imperialism.  Slaves.  Dictators.  Now racist violent policing as well as much of systematic prejudice has risen to the top.  COVID has risen to the top.  All of the groups that are enthralled by violence to achieve status, wealth or power have risen near the top.  Global warming has risen at least to the level of campaign promises, but it is a bit early to celebrate that one.

Thus, I am not impressed by an obsessed with violence advocate of the old values.  In a new birth of freedom, violence may become necessary.  With or without violence, it has always been the side favoring equality, democracy, human rights and I may as well include justice that comes up on top.  It will be less necessary to revert to violence in an age where non violence and legislation are the more common way to transform the culture.

I know you are obsessed with violence.  A lot of conservatives that are attracted to S&H are.  The idea that lots of violence comes every four score and seven years attracts people who are close to their hunter gatherer passions.  Like Game of Thrones suggested, it is time to break the wheel.  It is time for this to stop.  It is time for a crisis in some ways more profound than the more violent prior crises.

Not that we are there yet.  There are other unresolved issues, a need for more transformational turnings.  Limiting population may be in the on deck circle.

But this one will be sufficient.

I'm not obsessed with violence but I can see more of it coming and so can most of the country which is why people are arming up. I've heard there's two million more gun owners than there was before all  the violence started. If you want to stick with wishful thinking and continue blaming racism for what we've seen so far it's alright with me but it's most likely not going to help you at the polls in November.

Classic X'er, I have seen copious talk of nebulous violence from you. Americans are becoming less tolerant of racist, religious, homophobic, and domestic violence. Even executions are becoming rarer. (OK, one contributing factor to that is that police have bulletproof vests and get an edge in a shoot-out. Crooks used to pull a gun on a cop while fleeing a lawful arrest and shot the cop in the heart or lungs, killing the cop... but doing so now causes the bullet to bound off the bullet-proof vest and the cop gets a shot at the offender's heart or chest and then empties his revolver upon the dying offender. If the crook tries to shoot the cop in the face, then the cop shoots the perp in the chest before the crook can aim for the unprotected face or head Technically that is police brutality, but if it is a choice between someone who pulls a gun on a cop dying in an electric chair or being killed in the field, I prefer that the cop survive).

You make it sound as if gun owners are all anti-liberal people set on defending themselves from some left-wing nightmare. You are wrong. Most gun owners are sport hunters, and those are generally well-behaved people. They own expensive, high-powered, highly-accurate rifles. Well-behaved, all right -- unless you are "Bambi" or some game bird. Many of the guns are in possession of gun collectors who are more interested in antique firearms for their beauty than for their fire-power. Sure, an AK-47, and Uzi, or an AR-15 may be beautiful for its firepower, but nothing else, and if a collector has any of those he needs only one. They have their historical roles. Those collectors may have plenty of muskets grossly obsolete as military weapons or criminal arms. It would be easy to fashion gun-control legislation that leaves their deer rifle or their antique collection alone. 

If you are scared of Black Lives Matters -- then at least recognize its narrow purpose of making police forces more responsible in treating African-American suspects right. The right way to deal with an African-American suspect is the same as dealing with a white suspect: overpower the alleged offender, put the offender in lawful custody, and let the legal system do its work. Should the offender have breathing problems, then the suspect goes to the hospital for treatment. Black Lives Matters does not have a purpose of allowing black people to get away with crime for having been deprived in youth or having had ancestors 'oppressed' in slavery or Jim Crow practice. There are good people in the most dreadful ghettos, and black crooks usually victimize such people if they get the chance. Black Lives Matters clearly does not ask for black people to get any 'race card' that gets them out of jail free. I am for law and order (which explains my disdain for drugs, homophobia, and sex crimes), but not for inexcusable manifestations of police brutality. Yes, self-defense, however inexcusable, is as brutal as inexcusable crime that it is intended to thwart. 

If you want to know what the real brutality in the human soul is, then just look to the neo-Nazi and neo-Klan (the distinction between the Klan and neo-Nazis is at most style). We all know what Nazis did, and anyone affecting Nazi symbols and ideology connects himself to confiscations of assets, torture chambers, shooting pits, concentration camps, and fake showers that dispense Zyklon-B. Because Klan groups share the same hatreds as Nazis and have a known proclivity for murderous violence, I can easily imagine Kluxists doing much the same thing. Those who shout "Jews will not replace us!" -- as far as that goes, I wish that Jews really would replace them. (Jews have the decency to recognize Harvey Weinstein, Bernie Madoff, and Jeffrey Epstein as rogues worthy of hatred much as I as a German-American see John Dillinger as a rogue deserving of hatred).

[Classic-Xer]

(08-30-2020, 08:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-30-2020, 04:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not obsessed with violence...

You don't think so?  Try not regularly threatening others with violence.  I am doubtful that you are capable of refraining yourself.

You don't like warnings. You don't view giving warnings as a good/nice gesture. You don't prefer to give or receive warnings in advance. Are you a terrorist or some kind of radical?

[Classic-Xer]

(08-30-2020, 11:22 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Classic X'er, I have seen copious talk of nebulous violence from you. Americans are becoming less tolerant of racist, religious, homophobic, and domestic violence. Even executions are becoming rarer. (OK, one contributing factor to that is that police have bulletproof vests and get an edge in a shoot-out. Crooks used to pull a gun on a cop while fleeing a lawful arrest and shot the cop in the heart or lungs, killing the cop... but doing so now causes the bullet to bound off the bullet-proof vest and the cop gets a shot at the offender's heart or chest and then empties his revolver upon the dying offender. If the crook tries to shoot the cop in the face, then the cop shoots the perp in the chest before the crook can aim for the unprotected face or head  Technically that is police brutality, but if it is a choice between someone who pulls a gun on a cop dying in an electric chair or being killed in the field, I prefer that the cop survive).

You make it sound as if gun owners are all anti-liberal people set on defending themselves from some left-wing nightmare. You are wrong. Most gun owners are sport hunters, and those are generally well-behaved people. They own expensive, high-powered, highly-accurate rifles. Well-behaved, all right -- unless you are "Bambi" or some game bird. Many of the guns are in possession of gun collectors who are more interested in antique firearms for their beauty than for their fire-power. Sure, an AK-47, and Uzi, or an AR-15 may be beautiful for its firepower, but nothing else, and if a collector has any of those he needs only one. They have their historical roles. Those collectors may have plenty of muskets grossly obsolete as military weapons or criminal arms. It would be easy to fashion gun-control legislation that leaves their deer rifle or their antique collection alone. 

If you are scared of Black Lives Matters -- then at least recognize its narrow purpose of making police forces more responsible in treating African-American suspects right. The right way to deal with an African-American suspect is the same as dealing with a white suspect: overpower the alleged offender, put the offender in lawful custody, and let the legal system do its work. Should the offender have breathing problems, then the suspect goes to the hospital for treatment. Black Lives Matters does not have a purpose of allowing black people to get away with crime for having been deprived in youth or having had ancestors 'oppressed' in slavery or Jim Crow practice. There are good people in the most dreadful ghettos, and black crooks usually victimize such people if they get the chance. Black Lives Matters clearly does not ask for black people to get any 'race card' that gets them out of jail free. I am for law and order (which explains my disdain for drugs, homophobia, and sex crimes), but not for inexcusable manifestations of police brutality. Yes, self-defense, however inexcusable, is as brutal as inexcusable crime that it is intended to thwart. 

If you want to know what the real brutality in the human soul is, then just look to the neo-Nazi and neo-Klan (the distinction between the Klan and neo-Nazis is at most style). We all know what Nazis did, and anyone affecting Nazi symbols and ideology connects himself to confiscations of assets, torture chambers, shooting pits, concentration camps, and fake showers that dispense Zyklon-B. Because Klan groups share the same hatreds as Nazis and have a known proclivity for murderous violence, I can easily imagine Kluxists doing much the same thing. Those who shout "Jews will not replace us!" -- as far as that goes, I wish that Jews really would replace them. (Jews have the decency to recognize Harvey Weinstein, Bernie Madoff, and Jeffrey Epstein as rogues worthy of hatred much as I as a German-American see John Dillinger as a rogue deserving of hatred).

I'm not that scared of Black Lives Matter. I have a teenage daughter and a wife and a sister and family friends and close friends who go places where Black Lives Matter does/ could show up and do what they do or do more and go further than they normally do. which is an obvious concern and considered as bad enough for most people these days. I think its pretty clear that the majority of blacks who support Black Lives Matter don't want any armed cops policing going on in their neighborhoods (which are now expanding in Minneapolis right now) or bothering them and so forth. The black people that you don't see, that we rarely see( a quick snip it of them voicing concerns and discontent) are up in arms. Of coarse, you don't care about them, all you care about are the votes that Black Lives Matter can deliver in November. Are you sure that you aren't a racist? You don't view what's going on in left wing cities as left wing nightmares. I heard a young right winger was killed in Portland last night. I listened to some Democratic desk jockey Democrat giving a lecture and blaming Trump or blaming us as usual without thinking or understanding where we at as far as talking as usual since he's not paid do that as usual.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-30-2020, 12:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-30-2020, 08:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-30-2020, 04:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not obsessed with violence...

You don't think so?  Try not regularly threatening others with violence.  I am doubtful that you are capable of refraining yourself.

You don't like warnings. You don't view giving warnings as a good/nice gesture. You don't prefer to give or receive warnings in advance. Are you a terrorist or some kind of radical?

I would care about the threats coming from most people, but from you they are a joke.  Braack, buck buck buck.

I suppose my view of history is unusual.  That might brand me as a radical. but if so most S&H fans would be radicals.  Somehow it is hard to picture Strauss and Howe as radicals, wearing Hawaiian shirts and carrying long arms.  Still, most of my expressing myself on history takes place on this site.  You would know where I stand as well as anyone, or would if you had been paying any sort of attention.  It is hard to get labeled a terrorist when I say use violence as a last resort which we have not reached yet.  Just asking that question shows how you are not absorbing what I say and writing without thinking.

[Eric the Green]

I wonder, since Classic Xer thinks we should keep the confederate statues up, whether he would like to see statues of our other traitors and enemies. They are, after all, part of our history. Should we have a statue of King George III in Washington DC? He was the leader of our country for a long time. How about the British generals? Should we name military bases after them too? Benedict Arnold? John Breckinridge ran for president and became a traitor. Maybe he needs a statue. Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, they are part of our history too. Should we erect statues to them too?