The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(09-12-2020, 08:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 02:09 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How do you not see the plutocracy that mainly exists on the Democratic side today? How do you not see the obvious morons and imbeciles who represent your interests?

If there has ever been a greater case for "the pot calling the kettle black", I can't think of one. The shear mendacity of the entire Republican Party mated to the most officious POTUS in history makes any counter arguments about poor behavior and performance by the Dems moot by definition.  And yes, the Dems and their many followers have shown us little to be proud of either. It's just the shear magnitude difference that makes their trespasses so unimportant at this point.

Dude, America needs a rich American asshole in the White House and the hard Left has earned/ rightfully deserves the whooping that its got coming. Clinton lost because she used a term to describe a large group of Americans that could be easily used to describe her and equally applied to herself. So, how hard is it going to be to toy with Gumby and challenge Gumby and force Gumby to admit stuff that incriminates himself and the party he represents today.

[pbrower2a]

(09-12-2020, 03:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 08:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 02:09 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How do you not see the plutocracy that mainly exists on the Democratic side today? How do you not see the obvious morons and imbeciles who represent your interests?

If there has ever been a greater case for "the pot calling the kettle black", I can't think of one. The shear mendacity of the entire Republican Party mated to the most officious POTUS in history makes any counter arguments about poor behavior and performance by the Dems moot by definition.  And yes, the Dems and their many followers have shown us little to be proud of either. It's just the shear magnitude difference that makes their trespasses so unimportant at this point.

Dude, America needs a rich American asshole in the White House and the hard Left has earned/ rightfully deserves the whooping that its got  coming. Clinton lost because she used a term to describe a large group of Americans that could be easily used to describe her and equally applied to herself. So, how hard is it going to be to toy with Gumby and challenge Gumby and force Gumby to admit stuff that incriminates himself and the party he represents today.

Dude, most Presidents have been rich. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have since gotten rich off speaking tours and writing books. If you are President, then you have tales to tell unless you are so out of it once no longer President that people write about you without consulting you. Trump has done horrible stuff, including disparaging veterans and people in active duty to the Armed Services. As a right-winger who sees solciers as "losers", "fools", and "dopes", he is the sort who would, given the opportunity, expend them either for his personal glory or for the profits of war profiteers.

[David Horn]

(09-12-2020, 03:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 08:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 02:09 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How do you not see the plutocracy that mainly exists on the Democratic side today? How do you not see the obvious morons and imbeciles who represent your interests?

If there has ever been a greater case for "the pot calling the kettle black", I can't think of one. The shear mendacity of the entire Republican Party mated to the most officious POTUS in history makes any counter arguments about poor behavior and performance by the Dems moot by definition.  And yes, the Dems and their many followers have shown us little to be proud of either. It's just the shear magnitude difference that makes their trespasses so unimportant at this point.

Dude, America needs a rich American asshole in the White House and the hard Left has earned/ rightfully deserves the whooping that its got coming. Clinton lost because she used a term to describe a large group of Americans that could be easily used to describe her and equally applied to herself. So, how hard is it going to be to toy with Gumby and challenge Gumby and force Gumby to admit stuff that incriminates himself and the party he represents today.

You have an unwarranted belief in Toxic Sludge as a reelection candidate.  Many of the voters who decided he was the lesser of evils have reevaluated that decision.  They are not going to vote for the Orange One again.  Others who stayed home for whatever reason will be out voting this time, and not for Donald.  So that only leaves voter suppression and outright fraud as Trump's path to another term.  Credit where it's due; he'll try.

[Eric the Green]

I read an article that described people in southern Missouri and their addiction to Trump. It said that people support Trump because they hate liberals and they hate weakness. This reminds me of Classic Xer. I mean, I admire strength and ability too, I'm thinking. But I also admire giving to help others in need. And I recognize that private giving has never been enough; that all people in a just society need to contribute something if they can, and that society needs to make sure all people are included. People in the deep red areas of our country are just focused on their hatred for liberals. They stay misinformed about anything else. They swallow any ideology that supports their hatred. They don't want to give to help those in need when liberals require them to do so. They think everyone should be strong and do for themselves. "Those were the days" when "girls were girls and men were men" and "everybody pulls his weight" as Archie and Edith sang.

I understand. This hatred for liberals they also project onto us, and say they hate us because liberals hate them or put them down. It's not really true. But they are blinded by their own hatred into supporting their guy, no matter how many lies he tells, how much deadly incompetence he shows, and how corrupt, how unjust and destructive, how undemocratic and tyrannical, and how harmful to their own interests he really is. So they have saddled us with the worst possible president, whose only ability is to arouse and entertain people who hate liberals and rally them around him.

So, the polls continue to be uncertain, giving Biden a precarious lead in a country where almost half the people don't give a damn about others because they are blinded by their hatred for liberals.

Five thirty eight polling average Sept.13, 4:42 PM EDT
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/

National: Biden +7.3

Arizona Biden +4.7
Colorado Biden +10.5
Florida Biden +2.6
Georgia Trump +1.6
Iowa Trump +1.7
Kansas Trump +9.4
Michigan Biden +7.6
Minnesota Biden +7.7
Missouri Trump +6.6
Montana Trump +8.4
Nevada Biden +5.8
New Hampshire Biden +6.8
North Carolina Biden +1.3
Ohio Trump +1.0
Pennsylvania Biden +5.0
South Carolina Trump +6.8
Texas Trump +1.0
Utah Trump +11.7
Virginia Biden +10.7
Wisconsin Biden +6.5

Swing states above that voted for Hillary and Biden needs to hold: CO, MN, NV, NH, VA
Swing states that voted for Trump where Biden now leads: AZ, FL, MI, NC, PA, WI
Possible swing states that voted for Trump where Trump still leads now: GA, IA, KS, MO, MT, OH, SC, TX, UT

I also observe the following. If the polls shift and Trump wins, this could be the final election in which polls have any meaning, because Trump and the Republicans will see to it that elections are undemocratic, rigged and restricted enough so that enough people always vote for them. They already are rigged for them to an extent.

[Eric the Green]

(09-12-2020, 08:05 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 03:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 08:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 02:09 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How do you not see the plutocracy that mainly exists on the Democratic side today? How do you not see the obvious morons and imbeciles who represent your interests?

If there has ever been a greater case for "the pot calling the kettle black", I can't think of one. The shear mendacity of the entire Republican Party mated to the most officious POTUS in history makes any counter arguments about poor behavior and performance by the Dems moot by definition.  And yes, the Dems and their many followers have shown us little to be proud of either. It's just the shear magnitude difference that makes their trespasses so unimportant at this point.

Dude, America needs a rich American asshole in the White House and the hard Left has earned/ rightfully deserves the whooping that its got  coming. Clinton lost because she used a term to describe a large group of Americans that could be easily used to describe her and equally applied to herself. So, how hard is it going to be to toy with Gumby and challenge Gumby and force Gumby to admit stuff that incriminates himself and the party he represents today.

Dude, most Presidents have been rich. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have since gotten rich off speaking tours and writing books. If you are President, then you have tales to tell unless you are so out of it once no longer President that people write about you without consulting you. Trump has done horrible stuff, including disparaging veterans and people in active duty to the Armed Services. As a right-winger who sees solciers as "losers", "fools", and "dopes", he is the sort who would, given the opportunity, expend them either for his personal glory or for the profits of war profiteers.

Calling "deplorables" what they are, was not really relevant. People who were offended by one gaffe, and identified with the term, and meanwhile ignored the hundreds of gaffes made by her opponent, were ignorant and foolish enough to be swayed and hypnotized by Drumpface to begin with.

The Left has been whooped and injured for over 50 years already. One more is not going to change us, Classic Xer, or our disgust for your side's deplorable ignorance and evil.

[Eric the Green]

(09-11-2020, 04:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 05:15 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 01:51 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-10-2020, 10:33 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-10-2020, 05:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not but you've been doing it for many years and you're still doing it as far as I can see. Do you know what happened the last time the nation split and resolved an age old problem and split the time before to resolve an age old problem? So, who represents my interests on the Democratic side? I saw one Democratic candidate who sort of did who I pointed out as the best prospect I saw for a national candidate? I mean, she's the one who took out your vice presidential candidate who was picked strictly on the basis of race and gender vs her merits and integrity/character. I know this isn't politically correct or proper to say about a woman of color these days but I have a Democratic friend who refers to her as heels up Harris. Evidently, it's pretty well known that she f-d her way to the position that's she's today.

I'm not but you've been doing it for many years and you're still doing it as far as I can see. Why do you vote for an unequal country or state that's mainly divided between rich and poor, race and gender, capitalism and socialism that is not sustainable and will eventually fail? You can't seem to face up to this.

So, who represents our/my interests on the Democratic side today?

All Democrats represent the interests of working people and those of average income. Democrats represent those interested in greater equality and less of a wealth and education gap between rich and poor and between black/brown and white.

I don't know how rich you are, so I don't know which party really represents you. But the Republicans are the Party that seeks to preserve the power and wealth of rich people. That could not be clearer, and if you don't see that, you must be living in your own world.

Some authors and pundits note that less-educated and "credentialed" people who are frustrated with an economy of diminishing opportunity and much unemployment, are resentful of college-educated people, and vote for Republicans and Trump who appeal to their frustration at these supposed elitists. But Republicans and Trump do nothing for them at all, so voting for these strong-man autocrat phony-populists does nothing but make their situation much worse, because the actual Republican and Trump policies benefit only rich people.

Their only pitch is to lower taxes on the rich and upper middle class, lift regulations on business and dirty, outdated industries, and give permission for big financiers to speculate. They claim that giving breaks to rich people will cause benefits to trickle down to the middle class and the poor. It is a false claim; the rich simply pocket the extra dough, buy out companies, automate, ship jobs overseas, fire employees, speculate, pollute, and buy influence. They don't raise wages or benefits with these breaks that Republicans give them. Republican "jobs programs" amount to nothing more than this trickle-down economics nonsense. Trump offered tariffs, which might protect USA workers, but he hasn't delivered much except a trade war. 

In exchange for his lack of support for their real interests, Trump offers less-educated whites xenophobia, white identity, patriotic slogans, opposition to abortion, support for guns, conspiracy theory, lies, magical thinking, pep talks, entertainment, and other nostrums and irrelevancies that appeal to their emotions, fears and prejudices.

The Democrats mainly represent the rich Liberals/ upper middle class Liberals and poorer workers ( low income people and retiree's living on fixed income ) and welfare recipients  (mainly single moms) and Democratic voters/ supporters mainly related to them and a group of union government workers, a group of Liberal academics and a group of Liberal activists related to them and their followers where as the Republicans pretty much represent America, the bulk of it's national defense and it's private sector economy, it's landowners and the bulk of its middle class workers, it's higher skilled workers, it's self employed workers, it's smaller union workers and it's upper end workers/ taxpayers these days.

You focus on which groups support which Party, calling those groups that support Republicans "America." But these groups' support for Republicans reflects mainly their refusal to understand which Party's policies really represent their interests, as opposed to their prejudices. Republicans really represent the interests of the wealthy, and no-one else, through their free-market, trickle-down economics ideology. Other Republican voters vote their "values" (i.e. their fears and prejudices and their group identity) which Republicans appeal to.

Democrats are making inroads into these groups these days, especially in the middle class, mainly because of the current unfitness of the Republicans and their ridiculously-evil president these days, but also because of some demographic changes, which Trump is trying to hold back. How far this shift has really gone will be seen on election day 2020, and in elections to come-- assuming Trump does not win in 2020 and ruins all future elections. 

Assuming Trump loses and the Republicans choose a less-incompetent leader in the future, the shifts occurring in 2020 toward Democrats may be less severe in the following years. On the other hand, the demographic changes and the sterility and staleness of the Republican ideologies may keep the anti-Trump shift going, even under a less-toxic standard bearer. The success of both sides depends on the horoscope score of their presidential nominees. The personal qualities and appeal of the chosen leader counts a lot. Both sides should consult these scores and pick out a candidate who can beat the other party's leader's score.

Classic Xer's description of the groups suggests that the majority support Republicans. But in the popular vote for president, Democrats won by .5% in 2000, lost by 2% in 2004, won by 6% in 2008, won by 5% in 2012, and won by 2% in 2016. Republicans have won the popular vote only once since Bush won it in 1988. Only gerrymandering has kept the House in Republican hands any time during these years.

Classic Xer's description of the Democratic Party groups amounts mostly to a list of scapegoats.

[pbrower2a]

(09-13-2020, 04:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 08:05 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 03:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-12-2020, 08:33 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-11-2020, 02:09 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How do you not see the plutocracy that mainly exists on the Democratic side today? How do you not see the obvious morons and imbeciles who represent your interests?

If there has ever been a greater case for "the pot calling the kettle black", I can't think of one. The shear mendacity of the entire Republican Party mated to the most officious POTUS in history makes any counter arguments about poor behavior and performance by the Dems moot by definition.  And yes, the Dems and their many followers have shown us little to be proud of either. It's just the shear magnitude difference that makes their trespasses so unimportant at this point.

Dude, America needs a rich American asshole in the White House and the hard Left has earned/ rightfully deserves the whooping that its got  coming. Clinton lost because she used a term to describe a large group of Americans that could be easily used to describe her and equally applied to herself. So, how hard is it going to be to toy with Gumby and challenge Gumby and force Gumby to admit stuff that incriminates himself and the party he represents today.

Dude, most Presidents have been rich. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have since gotten rich off speaking tours and writing books. If you are President, then you have tales to tell unless you are so out of it once no longer President that people write about you without consulting you. Trump has done horrible stuff, including disparaging veterans and people in active duty to the Armed Services. As a right-winger who sees soldiers as "losers", "fools", and "dopes", he is the sort who would, given the opportunity, expend them either for his personal glory or for the profits of war profiteers.

Calling "deplorables" what they are, was not really relevant. People who were offended by one gaffe, and identified with the term, and meanwhile ignored the hundreds of gaffes made by her opponent, were ignorant and foolish enough to be swayed and hypnotized by Drumpface to begin with.

The Left has been whooped and injured for over 50 years already. One more is not going to change us, Classic Xer, or our disgust for your side's deplorable ignorance and evil.

Ideally we shore up our educational system so that people are wise enough to recognize what Hillary Clinton called deplorable for what it is. Orwellian Newspeak is deplorable. Mocking the disabled is deplorable. Bragging about grabbing women by their "kitty-cats" is deplorable. Sending in toughs to confront peaceful protesters is deplorable. People can disagree on economic philosophy, but they cannot rightly disagree on basic decencies. 


In Michigan we have some trend to make K-14 as the norm of education, as K-12 is inadequate for preparing people for the sophisticated technology that we have. At the least people need formal learning in economics, psychology, philosophy (if only for formal logic), and comparative political systems just to be able to deal with the more sophisticated demagogues and scammers of our time... and perhaps some art and music appreciation and world literature so that people can insist upon satisfying lives no matter what their economic circumstances.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-13-2020, 03:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I read an article that described people in southern Missouri and their addiction to Trump. It said that people support Trump because they hate liberals and they hate weakness. This reminds me of Classic Xer. I mean, I admire strength and ability too, I'm thinking. But I also admire giving to help others in need. And I recognize that private giving has never been enough; that all people in a just society need to contribute something if they can, and that society needs to make sure all people are included. People in the deep red areas of our country are just focused on their hatred for liberals. They stay misinformed about anything else. They swallow any ideology that supports their hatred. They don't want to give to help those in need when liberals require them to do so. They think everyone should be strong and do for themselves. "Those were the days" when "girls were girls and men were men" and "everybody pulls his weight" as Archie and Edith sang.

I understand. This hatred for liberals they also project onto us, and say they hate us because liberals hate them or put them down. It's not really true. But they are blinded by their own hatred into supporting their guy, no matter how many lies he tells, how much deadly incompetence he shows, and how corrupt, how unjust and destructive, how undemocratic and tyrannical, and how harmful to their own interests he really is. So they have saddled us with the worst possible president, whose only ability is to arouse and entertain people who hate liberals and rally them around him.

So, the polls continue to be uncertain, giving Biden a precarious lead in a country where almost half the people don't give a damn about others because they are blinded by their hatred for liberals.

Five thirty eight polling average Sept.13, 4:42 PM EDT
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/

National: Biden +7.3

Arizona Biden +4.7
Colorado Biden +10.5
Florida Biden +2.6
Georgia Trump +1.6
Iowa Trump +1.7
Kansas Trump +9.4
Michigan Biden +7.6
Minnesota Biden +7.7
Missouri Trump +6.6
Montana Trump +8.4
Nevada Biden +5.8
New Hampshire Biden +6.8
North Carolina Biden +1.3
Ohio Trump +1.0
Pennsylvania Biden +5.0
South Carolina Trump +6.8
Texas Trump +1.0
Utah Trump +11.7
Virginia Biden +10.7
Wisconsin Biden +6.5

Swing states above that voted for Hillary and Biden needs to hold: CO, MN, NV, NH, VA
Swing states that voted for Trump where Biden now leads: AZ, FL, MI, NC, PA, WI
Possible swing states that voted for Trump where Trump still leads now: GA, IA, KS, MO, MT, OH, SC, TX, UT

I also observe the following. If the polls shift and Trump wins, this could be the final election in which polls have any meaning, because Trump and the Republicans will see to it that elections are undemocratic, rigged and restricted enough so that enough people always vote for them. They already are rigged for them to an extent.

I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

[pbrower2a]

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 03:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I read an article that described people in southern Missouri and their addiction to Trump. It said that people support Trump because they hate liberals and they hate weakness. This reminds me of Classic Xer. I mean, I admire strength and ability too, I'm thinking. But I also admire giving to help others in need. And I recognize that private giving has never been enough; that all people in a just society need to contribute something if they can, and that society needs to make sure all people are included. People in the deep red areas of our country are just focused on their hatred for liberals. They stay misinformed about anything else. They swallow any ideology that supports their hatred. They don't want to give to help those in need when liberals require them to do so. They think everyone should be strong and do for themselves. "Those were the days" when "girls were girls and men were men" and "everybody pulls his weight" as Archie and Edith sang.

I understand. This hatred for liberals they also project onto us, and say they hate us because liberals hate them or put them down. It's not really true. But they are blinded by their own hatred into supporting their guy, no matter how many lies he tells, how much deadly incompetence he shows, and how corrupt, how unjust and destructive, how undemocratic and tyrannical, and how harmful to their own interests he really is. So they have saddled us with the worst possible president, whose only ability is to arouse and entertain people who hate liberals and rally them around him.

So, the polls continue to be uncertain, giving Biden a precarious lead in a country where almost half the people don't give a damn about others because they are blinded by their hatred for liberals.

Five thirty eight polling average Sept.13, 4:42 PM EDT
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/

National: Biden +7.3

Arizona Biden +4.7
Colorado Biden +10.5
Florida Biden +2.6
Georgia Trump +1.6
Iowa Trump +1.7
Kansas Trump +9.4
Michigan Biden +7.6
Minnesota Biden +7.7
Missouri Trump +6.6
Montana Trump +8.4
Nevada Biden +5.8
New Hampshire Biden +6.8
North Carolina Biden +1.3
Ohio Trump +1.0
Pennsylvania Biden +5.0
South Carolina Trump +6.8
Texas Trump +1.0
Utah Trump +11.7
Virginia Biden +10.7
Wisconsin Biden +6.5

Swing states above that voted for Hillary and Biden needs to hold: CO, MN, NV, NH, VA
Swing states that voted for Trump where Biden now leads: AZ, FL, MI, NC, PA, WI
Possible swing states that voted for Trump where Trump still leads now: GA, IA, KS, MO, MT, OH, SC, TX, UT

I also observe the following. If the polls shift and Trump wins, this could be the final election in which polls have any meaning, because Trump and the Republicans will see to it that elections are undemocratic, rigged and restricted enough so that enough people always vote for them. They already are rigged for them to an extent.

I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

 
At this point the difference between pollsters is their model for the electorate. An electorate like those of 2010, 2014, or 2016 allows Trump to win. An electorate like those of 2006, 2008, 2018, or maybe 2012 takes down Trump and gives the Democrats a majority in the Senate. 


Eric's liberal concern about the survival of the American political heritage that includes rule of law, separation of powers, checks and balances, and free and competitive elections is legitimate.  But that is also becoming a concern among conservatives who have their own trepidation about the despotic tendencies of Donald Trump. The best arguments against re-electing Trump are now often conservative arguments.  

Donald Trump has even created a secret police so secret that it does not yet have a name... but it is all too visible harassing dissidents. I can give it a nickname: the Trump-Trump Macoutes.

A Trump supporter should be mode concerned about the genuine conservatives voting for Joe Biden.

[pbrower2a]

Watch and weep, Classic X'er. You have been conned.

[Eric the Green]

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

Jeff Greenfield, whom I linked to on the election 2020 thread, suggests that some Trump voters don't answer polls, and it may also be true that some may be too ashamed to admit their preference. The polls are probably trying to save their reputations by contacting as many people as they can. Will there be enough passionate Trump supporters like in 2016 who vote in greater numbers than less-motivated Biden supporters, Jeff asks.

In some ways Biden is better positioned than Hillary was to keep her poll numbers up through the election. Biden is certainly not making Hillary's mistake of ignoring the 3 former blue rust-belt states that voted for Trump over Hillary by 1% and gave him his electoral college win. Biden is less hated than Hillary was among misogynist rural voters, and he has more rapport with the working class people, some of whom deserted Hillary for Trump's false promises in 2016. And PA is Biden's original home state. More younger voters and fewer older ones are on the rolls than 4 years ago, perhaps enough to shift that 1% margin to Biden. And Democratic governors have since been elected in those states, which may mean less voter purging. Trump's pandemic has hurt him a bit so far in Florida and North Carolina, which supported Trump narrowly in 2016 and now are polling narrowly for Biden. And Arizona's shift toward hispanics, who are mistreated by Trump, is turning that state light blue right now, and Nevada is likely to stay light blue too for the same reason. The constant Trump scandals give a few independents pause, even though the Trump base does not give a damn about them and is hooked on Fox News commentary and on hatred for mainstream media. Biden's higher horoscope score verifies that Biden is inherently a more-skilled and likable candidate than Hillary. Trump and his associates have not yet been able to hang a severe scandal on him they way they did on Hillary.

The major factor that might hurt Biden this year, that was not a factor in 2016, is the pandemic itself-- even though Trump's performance about it has hurt his chances. Wisconsin's supreme court is playing games with the election, which could delay mail-in ballots. That state and other eastern swing states have not moved simply to mail every voter a ballot, but require sending in a request for one, which may even require a witness to sign the request form. This and the antics at the post office is making mail-in voting harder, at a time when Democrats are more likely to do mail-in voting because they accept science and the danger it reports about the virus, while Republicans are more likely to think social distancing and masks are an attack on their freedom. So the initial results in the east could favor Trump, and the harder mail-in voting could not only delay the results but also discourage some reluctant, less-passionate Democrats from voting.

[David Horn]

(09-11-2020, 02:09 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How do you not see the plutocracy that mainly exists on the Democratic side today? How do you not see the obvious morons and imbeciles who represent your interests?

Well, I have to agree that there are plenty of plutocrats and imbeciles around, and some are Democrats. I have a harder time ignoring the entire forest full of them on the right just because there are a few trees on the left. In fact, the plutocrats only support the neoliberal Dems, and that side is getting depleted pretty fast. And imbeciles? Find any Democrat as clueless as Louie Gommert or Ron Johnson.

[David Horn]

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

And the source of this information is ... ?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

And the source of this information is ... ?

It's just something I've heard on Fox.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-13-2020, 10:09 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 03:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I read an article that described people in southern Missouri and their addiction to Trump. It said that people support Trump because they hate liberals and they hate weakness. This reminds me of Classic Xer. I mean, I admire strength and ability too, I'm thinking. But I also admire giving to help others in need. And I recognize that private giving has never been enough; that all people in a just society need to contribute something if they can, and that society needs to make sure all people are included. People in the deep red areas of our country are just focused on their hatred for liberals. They stay misinformed about anything else. They swallow any ideology that supports their hatred. They don't want to give to help those in need when liberals require them to do so. They think everyone should be strong and do for themselves. "Those were the days" when "girls were girls and men were men" and "everybody pulls his weight" as Archie and Edith sang.

I understand. This hatred for liberals they also project onto us, and say they hate us because liberals hate them or put them down. It's not really true. But they are blinded by their own hatred into supporting their guy, no matter how many lies he tells, how much deadly incompetence he shows, and how corrupt, how unjust and destructive, how undemocratic and tyrannical, and how harmful to their own interests he really is. So they have saddled us with the worst possible president, whose only ability is to arouse and entertain people who hate liberals and rally them around him.

So, the polls continue to be uncertain, giving Biden a precarious lead in a country where almost half the people don't give a damn about others because they are blinded by their hatred for liberals.

Five thirty eight polling average Sept.13, 4:42 PM EDT
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/

National: Biden +7.3

Arizona Biden +4.7
Colorado Biden +10.5
Florida Biden +2.6
Georgia Trump +1.6
Iowa Trump +1.7
Kansas Trump +9.4
Michigan Biden +7.6
Minnesota Biden +7.7
Missouri Trump +6.6
Montana Trump +8.4
Nevada Biden +5.8
New Hampshire Biden +6.8
North Carolina Biden +1.3
Ohio Trump +1.0
Pennsylvania Biden +5.0
South Carolina Trump +6.8
Texas Trump +1.0
Utah Trump +11.7
Virginia Biden +10.7
Wisconsin Biden +6.5

Swing states above that voted for Hillary and Biden needs to hold: CO, MN, NV, NH, VA
Swing states that voted for Trump where Biden now leads: AZ, FL, MI, NC, PA, WI
Possible swing states that voted for Trump where Trump still leads now: GA, IA, KS, MO, MT, OH, SC, TX, UT

I also observe the following. If the polls shift and Trump wins, this could be the final election in which polls have any meaning, because Trump and the Republicans will see to it that elections are undemocratic, rigged and restricted enough so that enough people always vote for them. They already are rigged for them to an extent.

I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

 
At this point the difference between pollsters is their model for the electorate. An electorate like those of 2010, 2014, or 2016 allows Trump to win. An electorate like those of 2006, 2008, 2018, or maybe 2012 takes down Trump and gives the Democrats a majority in the Senate. 


Eric's liberal concern about the survival of the American political heritage that includes rule of law, separation of powers, checks and balances, and free and competitive elections is legitimate.  But that is also becoming a concern among conservatives who have their own trepidation about the despotic tendencies of Donald Trump. The best arguments against re-electing Trump are now often conservative arguments.  

Donald Trump has even created a secret police so secret that it does not yet have a name... but it is all too visible harassing dissidents. I can give it a nickname: the Trump-Trump Macoutes.

A Trump supporter should be mode concerned about the genuine conservatives voting for Joe Biden.

A genuine conservative wouldn't waste their vote on Biden/Gumby.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-14-2020, 04:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

And the source of this information is ... ?

It's just something I've heard on Fox.

Oh. Something likely only true on Earth Two then...

[David Horn]

(09-14-2020, 04:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

And the source of this information is ... ?

It's just something I've heard on Fox.

I'm so-o-o-o surprised!

[Mikebert]

(09-09-2020, 01:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: That's what you thought but you still had to ask? Well, I'd still leave you hanging from a limb and I'd still leave you to fend for yourself or leave you to mercy of some group of Democrats.

You position makes no sense.You were espousing "taking things" from Blue America, which sounds like theft to me. So I was ruling out that as a possible explanation. You apparently cannot articulate your argument, from which I conclude you don't really have one. Your complaints are more emotional or perhaps spiritual than concrete, although you seem to prefer a concrete solution--civil war--that is, killing people and taking their stuff.

We are in a creedal passion period or in S&H terms, a certain kind of social moment. Such periods have sometimes led to major conflagrations: the 19th century US Civil War, the 17th century English Civil War, the 16th century German Peasants War. Is that really your preferred solution?

[pbrower2a]

(09-09-2020, 05:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-09-2020, 03:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Classic X'er, I hope that what you said to Mikebert is strictly a figure of speech.

The best way to deal with a lynching is to deter it or thwart it. I'm not citing what was said, but all in all, lynching is evidence of the breakdown of law and order. Let none be confused: law and order is essential to a civil society, and without it any enumerated rights are pipe dreams. Law and order means that people trust law enforcement, courts, and (for the worst deeds that people can do to each other that cash settlements could never mitigate) prisons and in perhaps some extremely-rare cases, executions (treason, piracy, serial killers, mass killings, human trafficking*). Maybe we are better off if we believe that a just God would send such people as Holocaust perpetrators and their victims to very different places in Eternity. Should people not be moral, then they might be given the fear of Hell as a substitute.

If possible, I would cut someone down someone still struggling for life from the rope, and I would certainly report any lynching to law enforcement for arrest and prosecution. Lynching is a violation of civil liberties, and I would remind you that is a capital crime if it results in a death.  

* I consider human trafficking the worst thing that anyone could do to another. Victims' lives become a veritable Hell on Earth. The suffering ends for a murder victim, but not for someone trafficked until that person dies or is liberated.  I have no problem with China executing those who commit this crime, my only questions being about the legal process.

I shouldn't have to tell a teacher like yourself that it was  a figure of speech.

I can tell from a tone of voice... but I have heard "I will kill you!" said by one student to another, and that was always good for a referral to the principal's office even if the person said that it was a joke or that he didn't mean it. Oh, it's only a joke? Some jokes, like the one that begins "did you hear about the dumb (it rhymes with Moloch) who..." are unacceptable for obvious reasons.

[Eric the Green]

(09-15-2020, 10:34 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-14-2020, 04:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-13-2020, 09:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've heard that the Democrats are over represented in most of today's polls.

And the source of this information is ... ?

It's just something I've heard on Fox.

I'm so-o-o-o surprised!

LOL ha ha ha ha