2T Vs. 3T pop culture

[Eric the Green]

Some Xers and millies can't face the possible fact that the pop culture era of their youth was the worst ever since pop culture became a major element in society around the 1890s. Tara takes it personally, although it is no reflection on her or on millies in general, or even on most Gen Xers. Xers like Pharrell and the Maroon 5 group have already proven they can do better in the 4T than they did in the 3T. The mood has changed to something more like the last 4T. And a lot of 3T pop was created by boomers. They also set the styles (that I mostly don't like) in the early 80s. After all, the politics of the 3T in the USA was ALSO the worst ever, and boomers had more to do with that than the younger generations. And that these things happened together is no accident.

A lot of the problem was the media ownership concentration that the Reaganoids and even the Clintonistas allowed to happen during the 3T, which was dedicated to Galen's policy of letting business do whatever it wants. The result of his policies being adopted was a few media moguls only allowing "music" of the lowest common denominator to be broadcast or produced. In the 4T that strangehold has been challenged by social media like you tube, which has allowed alternative pop stars like Justin Bieber to find an audience. I think that will continue, and may extend far beyond contributions by teenagers.

Disillusionment and cynicism expressed by Xers in their music is also partly a result of the political policies and stagnation of the time.

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization. Just because Taramarie ignores what I say, does not mean I haven't said it.

[Eric the Green]

(06-23-2016, 04:38 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-23-2016, 04:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Some Xers and millies can't face the possible fact that the pop culture era of their youth was the worst ever since pop culture became a major element in society around the 1890s. Tara takes it personally, although it is no reflection on her or on millies in general, or even on most Gen Xers. Xers like Pharrell and the Maroon 5 group have already proven they can do better in the 4T than they did in the 3T. The mood has changed to something more like the last 4T. And a lot of 3T pop was created by boomers. They also set the styles (that I mostly don't like) in the early 80s. After all, the politics of the 3T in the USA was ALSO the worst ever, and boomers had more to do with that than the younger generations. And that these things happened together is no accident.

A lot of the problem was the media ownership concentration that the Reaganoids and even the Clintonistas allowed to happen during the 3T, which was dedicated to Galen's policy of letting business do whatever it wants. The result of his policies being adopted was a few media moguls only allowing "music" of the lowest common denominator to be broadcast or produced. In the 4T that strangehold has been challenged by social media like you tube, which has allowed alternative pop stars like Justin Bieber to find an audience. I think that will continue, and may extend far beyond contributions by teenagers.

Disillusionment and cynicism expressed by Xers in their music is also partly a result of the political policies and stagnation of the time.

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization. Just because Taramarie ignores what I say, does not mean I haven't said it.

Side note: that is cool you like Maroon 5. May as well mention while i am here i like Lightfoot. See is it not nicer to share music we like without bashing an entire turning?

Or telling others what to say??

I mostly like Maroon 5's 4T music, but the ones you posted were pretty good. But I'm surprised you like them, they are so sexy.

Galen hates them, iirc.

[Galen]

(06-28-2016, 01:31 AM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote:

(06-23-2016, 04:38 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-23-2016, 04:15 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: Some Xers and millies can't face the possible fact that the pop culture era of their youth was the worst ever since pop culture became a major element in society around the 1890s. Tara takes it personally, although it is no reflection on her or on millies in general, or even on most Gen Xers. Xers like Pharrell and the Maroon 5 group have already proven they can do better in the 4T than they did in the 3T. The mood has changed to something more like the last 4T. And a lot of 3T pop was created by boomers. They also set the styles (that I mostly don't like) in the early 80s. After all, the politics of the 3T in the USA was ALSO the worst ever, and boomers had more to do with that than the younger generations. And that these things happened together is no accident.

A lot of the problem was the media ownership concentration that the Reaganoids and even the Clintonistas allowed to happen during the 3T, which was dedicated to Galen's policy of letting business do whatever it wants. The result of his policies being adopted was a few media moguls only allowing "music" of the lowest common denominator to be broadcast or produced. In the 4T that strangehold has been challenged by social media like you tube, which has allowed alternative pop stars like Justin Bieber to find an audience. I think that will continue, and may extend far beyond contributions by teenagers.

Disillusionment and cynicism expressed by Xers in their music is also partly a result of the political policies and stagnation of the time.

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization. Just because Taramarie ignores what I say, does not mean I haven't said it.

Side note: that is cool you like Maroon 5. May as well mention while i am here i like Lightfoot. See is it not nicer to share music we like without bashing an entire turning?

Or telling others what to say??

I mostly like Maroon 5's 4T music, but the ones you posted were pretty good. But I'm surprised you like them, they are so sexy.

Never heard of them so its kind of hard to have an opinion about their music.

[Eric the Green]

(06-28-2016, 02:12 AM)Galen Wrote:

(06-28-2016, 01:31 AM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote:

(06-23-2016, 04:38 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-23-2016, 04:15 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: Some Xers and millies can't face the possible fact that the pop culture era of their youth was the worst ever since pop culture became a major element in society around the 1890s. Tara takes it personally, although it is no reflection on her or on millies in general, or even on most Gen Xers. Xers like Pharrell and the Maroon 5 group have already proven they can do better in the 4T than they did in the 3T. The mood has changed to something more like the last 4T. And a lot of 3T pop was created by boomers. They also set the styles (that I mostly don't like) in the early 80s. After all, the politics of the 3T in the USA was ALSO the worst ever, and boomers had more to do with that than the younger generations. And that these things happened together is no accident.

A lot of the problem was the media ownership concentration that the Reaganoids and even the Clintonistas allowed to happen during the 3T, which was dedicated to Galen's policy of letting business do whatever it wants. The result of his policies being adopted was a few media moguls only allowing "music" of the lowest common denominator to be broadcast or produced. In the 4T that strangehold has been challenged by social media like you tube, which has allowed alternative pop stars like Justin Bieber to find an audience. I think that will continue, and may extend far beyond contributions by teenagers.

Disillusionment and cynicism expressed by Xers in their music is also partly a result of the political policies and stagnation of the time.

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization. Just because Taramarie ignores what I say, does not mean I haven't said it.

Side note: that is cool you like Maroon 5. May as well mention while i am here i like Lightfoot. See is it not nicer to share music we like without bashing an entire turning?

Or telling others what to say??

I mostly like Maroon 5's 4T music, but the ones you posted were pretty good. But I'm surprised you like them, they are so sexy.

Never heard of them so its kind of hard to have an opinion about their music.

OK, it wasn't you then.

[Eric the Green]

This is what I have said here for years now:

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization.

[Eric the Green]

(06-28-2016, 04:15 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-28-2016, 10:13 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: This is what I have said here for years now:

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization.

Yes the 3T culture is a big category so a "worst" smear (and that is what it is) does not make it true given there are so many songs that you are discovering yourself that you enjoy

Nope; still the worst. But it's the label of worst that is relative; such a big category cannot be a uniform judgement on all the songs of the period. But there's still a big gap between the 2T and the 4T, as I hear it. But, though that's still my opinion, I have always admitted that there are more songs of that period I don't know than those of today and the 2T, and my ears are open.

Quote: as well as the fact beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

That's not a fact, as explained perfectly, but you ignore it.

Quote: Just be aware whenever you say that and I see it, I will say something. I will defend it for those of us who enjoy that era. I know you love to keep reminding us you hate it. I am persistent too.

You can post whatever you decide to post, within forum guidelines. I am also free to ignore it, or not. You are still officially on my ignore list.

Quote: Enjoy the music you like and let us do the same thank you.

I cannot tell you what to enjoy and what not, silly. You cannot tell me what to say.

Quote: Be tolerant of the differences and let us share and enjoy our similarities including songs we like together. You want a tolerant world. That is an example.

Then, if that's what you want, then YOU can tolerate the fact that people make statements of what they like and what they don't, Taramarie. And, you might learn something too.

[Eric the Green]

(06-28-2016, 04:52 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-28-2016, 04:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-28-2016, 04:15 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-28-2016, 10:13 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: This is what I have said here for years now:

To say that (in my opinion) the recent 3T was the worst culturally, not only in pop music but in broadcast TV, does not mean there weren't some good songs in it. All 3T pop culture is a big category, and I also exclude not only fringe phenomena like new age music and singer-songwriters, but pop culture beyond the United States, from this generalization.

Yes the 3T culture is a big category so a "worst" smear (and that is what it is) does not make it true given there are so many songs that you are discovering yourself that you enjoy

Nope; still the worst. But it's the label of worst that is relative; such a big category cannot be a uniform judgement on all the songs of the period. But there's still a big gap between the 2T and the 4T, as I hear it. But, though that's still my opinion, I have always admitted that there are more songs of that period I don't know than those of today and the 2T, and my ears are open.

Quote: as well as the fact beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

That's not a fact, as explained perfectly, but you ignore it.

Quote: Just be aware whenever you say that and I see it, I will say something. I will defend it for those of us who enjoy that era. I know you love to keep reminding us you hate it. I am persistent too.

You can post whatever you decide to post, within forum guidelines. I am also free to ignore it, or not. You are still officially on my ignore list.

Quote: Enjoy the music you like and let us do the same thank you.

I cannot tell you what to enjoy and what not, silly. You cannot tell me what to say.

Quote: Be tolerant of the differences and let us share and enjoy our similarities including songs we like together. You want a tolerant world. That is an example.

Then, if that's what you want, then YOU can tolerate the fact that people make statements of what they like and what they don't, Taramarie. And, you might learn something too.

As to your last comment I think you could learn that too. You are trying to change the world correct? Which means you disagree with people to the point of changing their behaviour. You cannot tell me you are tolerant. The only reason I am having this discussion with you is because despite the fact you say you are open minded and tolerant you aren't regarding the 3T given what you say about it. Lets keep that fact well known here. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Same fact that one person likes someone else and another looks from afar thinking why is she or he with that person ugh! Same thing with music. A person can like certain music and another does not think it is good. Like gabrielle was astounded that i "missed all the good song." To her they are good. To me, some were new discoveries and some no. Difference is i do not go round saying i do not like a whole turning for its culture. I will add that no one actually cares as we cherish it. You seem unaware that it is rude though. For someone open to changing himself you seem closed off to opening your own mind to others. But that is why you are the prophet and i am the civic. I see other people and hear what they say. You are the one obsessed with changing culture and be damned those who stand in the way. It makes you quite ignorant to people. People who are in that society you want to change. Funny i am on your ignore list but that is not working. You cannot ignore truth Eric. All i want is for you to be nice. We know you do not like that turning so why keep complaining about it?

You are not nice, so why ask me to be?

I say what I think. I don't care if you think it's rude for me to say what I think. There's no point in having a forum if people don't.

Beauty is not just in the eye of the beholder.

You seem to care if I don't agree with you. You keep talking to me about it.

You talking about how others feel about me IS extremely rude. That's why you're on my ignore list. That's not acceptable behavior.

What you say is not necessarily the truth, just because you are on my ignore list.

[Eric the Green]

Again I've said all I need to say in my argument with Taramarie; whatever.

[Ragnarök_62]

taramarie Wrote:It is interesting that Eric has decided to restart this debate again. I thought we were all done and dusted but he seems to like to be smacked around by someone he apparently has on "ignore."

Eric used to have huge ignore list on the old forum.  

Quote: He chooses instead to ignore them as it is to do with changing culture. His opinion (in his opinion) is correct and true and ours not so much. I notice what others say and take account of that and he continues to stand firm that he is correct. I think this is a prime example of a civic vs prophet debate.

I rather think this is just Eric being Eric. I guarantee that if Vandal'72 popped in here, you'd get entertained.

Quote:One can see others and the other thinks our mind set and with it culture should change to suit him and be damned our opinion.

Let's see. 
1. I saw an Eric post where he got on his soapbox about "Reaganiods, etc."  I guess that sort of fits within the bounds of the thread's topic.
2. Eric will put folks on ignore, but will go off and peak at their posts. Make sense?  To moi, not really.  


3. Let's ponder Eric's "ear" for stuff. I guess those ears must be kinda big: Since my ears aren't nearly that big, I certainly don't have an "ear for <insert yucky music>" here.

[Eric the Green]

(06-28-2016, 07:16 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

taramarie Wrote:It is interesting that Eric has decided to restart this debate again. I thought we were all done and dusted but he seems to like to be smacked around by someone he apparently has on "ignore."

Eric used to have huge ignore list on the old forum.  

Tara started it, as she always does. Her problem is that she thinks she can change me. ha ha!

Not long ago, I had no-one on ignore. After about 14 years, I decided to put Glick on ignore because of his long posts and red print. But soon after that, mostly new-to-the-forum Gen Xers decided to unleash unprecedented levels of stubborn anger and insult on me and others, and I decided to put them on ignore after it was clear dialogue was impossible. But I can always look at their posts if I choose. It appears to be a deterioration in the quality of posters as Gen X and early millennials became more prominent on the forum, some of whom have a hatred of boomers like me, and probably also as the book itself became more and more in the past, the forum became more of an irrelevant free-for-all for trolls and near-trolls. I explained all this before, of course.

But I am probably just hooked on the idea and technology of a forum like this, and the breadth of this forum as opposed to others.

Quote:

Quote: He chooses instead to ignore them as it is to do with changing culture. His opinion (in his opinion) is correct and true and ours not so much. I notice what others say and take account of that and he continues to stand firm that he is correct. I think this is a prime example of a civic vs prophet debate.

I rather think this is just Eric being Eric. I guarantee that if Vandal'72 popped in here, you'd get entertained.

You are closer to the truth than Taramarie; that's not hard. My issue with her is that she wants to tell me what to say and get others to back her up.

Quote:One can see others and the other thinks our mind set and with it culture should change to suit him and be damned our opinion.

I have my views on culture. People expressing views is what a forum is for, not for giving posters advice about changing their behavior.

Quote:Let's see. 
1. I saw an Eric post where he got on his soapbox about "Reaganiods, etc."  I guess that sort of fits within the bounds of the thread's topic.

As I explained, my soapbox was just stating facts as I know them.

Quote:2. Eric will put folks on ignore, but will go off and peak at their posts. Make sense?  To moi, not really.  

I always have hope for peace and reconciliation and for people to come to their senses and be reasonable. I guess that's just my 60s idealism. It really probably is wrong; it's hard to imagine Galen not calling me Obtuse, or Tara stop demanding that I stop saying 3T pop American culture is the worst and trying to get others to shame me for it. Probably ain't gonna happen. Or Vandal or Kinser to engage in an actual dialogue. Not likely to happen.

Quote:3. Let's ponder Eric's "ear" for stuff. I guess those ears must be kinda big: Since my ears aren't nearly that big, I certainly don't have an "ear for <insert yucky music>" here.

I have always been told that my ears are more sensitive than those of most other folks. Of course, my mouth is pretty big too.

[Eric the Green]

What is good music, is good music, regardless of the age at which you hear it.

[Eric the Green]

I'm not going to argue with with Taramarie. You are free to think anything you wish about me.

[Eric the Green]

(07-01-2016, 02:58 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(07-01-2016, 11:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not going to argue with with Taramarie. You are free to think anything you wish about me.

I go by what i see repetitively in your comments. If i saw evidence to the contrary i would mention that too. I like that you are open to other music and new music. Not all older folk are. You are open minded to the supernatural....not sure if from experience like me and i am grateful for that as some are totally closed off to it. For good reason sometimes also due to not experiencing it. You are calm where i am hot headed. Hey look i can admit my flaws but that is the difference between us. One of the differences anyway.

That is a calmer post from you; good. Still inaccurate though. I do not "bash all 3T music." I have repeatedly mentioned the qualifications to my opinion. That means I think there is some good music (including even some good American pop music) created in the 3T period. Just that, as a whole, American 3T pop (circa 1985-2009) is not as good as in other periods. That is my opinion as a would-be music critic and as a writer and musician. I see evidence that the rest of the anglo-sphere as well as Europe and perhaps elsewhere produced better pop music in this period. How many of your 3T pop favorites come from outside the USA, or from New Zealand?

I am obviously not very good at communicating about music, or my preferences and opinions about it. And I have strong feelings about it. It is hard to communicate about something that is not describable in words. But I don't tell other people what to listen to, and it's great that you enjoy whatever music you enjoy. All music has a magic to it that can stir the soul, as John Sebastian and the Lovin' Spoonful said.

Remember, some of the best music ever created in my opinion was made by a man from New Zealand in the 3T years. You can see one example of his work in the best songs ever thread near the start when I was covering the 3T music that I liked.

In the 1963-73 period especially, and sometimes in the years just before and after, popular music went through a period where it strived to be artistic, and achieved it. Much attention was given to the instrumental arrangements, and expert studio musicians were employed. Songwriters started recording their own music. Poets like Bob Dylan had pop hits. Influences from folk music, classical music and world music came in, and the psychedelic culture added a strong mystical experience into the music that is not present in other periods. New instruments like the electric guitar and electronic organ were explored, and British rock bands roared to the top. Commercial radio stations were open to this music, and not purely focused on making money or concentrated in ownership monopolies. Professional DJs were genuinely interested in the music, and were allowed to choose it at times and make comments about it pro and con, and even announce what the songs were. These are the main reasons why the 2T popular music reached a peak of excellence that went away in the years that followed. Also, much of the pop music of those years was created by an artist generation, according to Strauss and Howe, and especially by the war baby/boomer cusp cohorts, which featured a visionary aspect between visionary planets in their horoscopes, the Uranus-Neptune trine, which has historically corresponded to times when groups of great artists are born.

Meanwhile though, in the 1970s mainstream AM pop music reverted to its usual commercial ways of appealing to the lowest common denominator of taste, and so we got bubble-gum music of the Donny Osmond school, which was followed in the mid 70s by the Disco Duck and other disco trifles. Even though I was still a young boomer, and this was boomer youth music, I did not like it. In the early 1970s the art rock shifted to FM radio stations that focused on this genre, called album-oriented rock. In the later 70s this field too declined and became more commercial. By the 80s the sensitive, visionary, psychedelic element in FM rock had mostly disappeared and left mainly the increasingly loud, brash, boisterous element. The New Wave was an interesting relief from disco and declining boomer rock, but it was not good enough in my experience to get me too involved in it.

Nor did I care much for a lot of the 1T pop that preceded the core 2T Awakening years, although I learned to like some of the tunes later as oldies but goodies. But I was already a young kid and a teenager in those years, and I did not listen to it just because my peers were listening to it. So contrary to what people might say, I did not choose my music based on my age at the time, or what I thought was cool that the other kids were listening to. Before and after the core 2T, I listened to classical music, and learned to play it too. I always listen to what I like, regardless of my age or what is fashionable.

[Eric the Green]

(07-08-2016, 04:51 PM)taramarie Wrote: Oh ok David Parsons. I wonder where in NZ he lives. I cannot find much about him. Not even a birth date.

I don't know his birth date either, although I know he is part of the late-silent war-baby/boomer cusp like the Beatles and Bob Dylan. I was in personal contact with him for a while, and got to world premiere a few of his works, but now I have lost contact. He is said to have the largest home studio in NZ and has done film work there. He is an expert on Asian music, of course. Another musician friend stayed at his house, but I don't remember where that was. Lots more info here:
http://www.harmonies.com/biographies/parsons.htm

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/david-par.../biography

[Eric the Green]

(07-08-2016, 06:39 PM)taramarie Wrote: Yeah I figured as I was looking at the dates when he was exploring music in the 60s. Yes that is the link I looked at. Very interesting life. He definitely sounds like several people I know who are of that cohort. Eastern influence as well as the green movement is still very alive in the hearts of that cohort here in NZ. Interesting that you had personal contact with him. Did he go to America or you came here?

Not in person; just through correspondence and email. Another colleague where I did my radio show also interviewed him on his show.

[Eric the Green]

"Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?" "put the personal aside?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier than thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.

[Eric the Green]

I see thousands of comments on you tube videos from people young and old, similar to this:

Tami Rolhiser2 weeks ago
I really love this old music as it tells us a story and has so much meaning as today's music has no meaning what so ever and it really sucks as to why I love the 50s 60s and 70s music it was so meaningful back then wish I could have experience those good old days as I don't care for the music today

Lots of young people agree, the music was better then. Of course in 2010-2012 when I would see these comments, almost everyone would also say, "So much better than Justin Bieber" etc. because he was the biggest pop sensation of that time. I like JB, of course, and some other more-recent music.

[Eric the Green]

There is a lot of sentiment out there that the 3T and 4T music isn't as good, and it would be good if real music was brought back. I would like to see people here demonstrate that the 3T produced some good pop music. Taramarie actually posted at least a few good songs, and some OK "happy" (and sexy) pop. Others posted a few good things. The Santana song I was going to post, was posted. Recently it's been mostly grunge stuff, and I don't hear music in it. But I know there were some good rock groups in the 3T, like REM, Depeche Mode, and early Maroon 5 was OK; and I thought I heard some good songs by The Cure (not posted in the 3T thread yet though), and later, Coldplay and Green Day. I think there's some good stuff that better represents "the best," even though I likely wouldn't think it is; but at least good. I don't know enough about the era and would like to learn more, without having my ears bled. So I hope you can give it a shot. Find the good stuff. It's not a matter of what generation I sympathize with; it's a question of quality.

[MillsT_98]

(08-03-2016, 08:08 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(08-03-2016, 06:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I see thousands of comments on you tube videos from people young and old, similar to this:

Tami Rolhiser2 weeks ago
I really love this old music as it tells us a story and has so much meaning as today's music has no meaning what so ever and it really sucks as to why I love the 50s 60s and 70s music it was so meaningful back then wish I could have experience those good old days as I don't care for the music today

Lots of young people agree, the music was better then. Of course in 2010-2012 when I would see these comments, almost everyone would also say, "So much better than Justin Bieber" etc. because he was the biggest pop sensation of that time. I like JB, of course, and some other more-recent music.

People say the same thing about 90s music. That it was better then than now. It is nostalgia talking.

I have witnessed many Millennials be nostalgic about everything to do with 90s culture. I am like that to an extent. Today more than ever seems to be a time to reflect on the past, and that includes being nostalgic about past culture.

[MillsT_98]

(08-03-2016, 11:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a lot of sentiment out there that the 3T and 4T music isn't as good, and it would be good if real music was brought back. I would like to see people here demonstrate that the 3T produced some good pop music. Taramarie actually posted at least a few good songs, and some OK "happy" (and sexy) pop. Others posted a few good things. The Santana song I was going to post, was posted. Recently it's been mostly grunge stuff, and I don't hear music in it. But I know there were some good rock groups in the 3T, like REM, Depeche Mode, and early Maroon 5 was OK; and I thought I heard some good songs by The Cure (not posted in the 3T thread yet though), and later, Coldplay and Green Day. I think there's some good stuff that better represents "the best," even though I likely wouldn't think it is; but at least good. I don't know enough about the era and would like to learn more, without having my ears bled. So I hope you can give it a shot. Find the good stuff. It's not a matter of what generation I sympathize with; it's a question of quality.

Just remember, what someone thinks is the best is subjective and is just their opinion. Anyone can post whatever they think is the best music on the best song threads!