The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Eric the Green]

(12-22-2020, 12:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 12:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 10:25 AM)David Horn Wrote: C-Xer and his allies believe -- deeply believe -- that white America is under siege, and being attacked from all sides.  They also believe they are the true Americans, and their opponents are <insert your degrading characterization of choice>. If you believe that, and you also believe your adversaries are anti-American, then it's easy to declare a no-holds-barred standard in opposing them -- and that's where we are.

What they believe - deeply believe - is in the division of wealth, in small government, that by hurting the working man and wealth going to the elites they remain 'superior' to minorities.  It would take a Hiroshima level event to make the examine the worth of this belief.  The deaths caused by COVID and the Black Lives Matter protests are not allowed to penetrate their thoughts.

And they are being attacked from all sides for these beliefs.  They believe in Identity Politics, that America exists for them alone, and all others are locked out.  For believing that, it is proper that they be attacked from all sides.

For all the good that that recognizing the problem does.

They can try to embrace racism, doublethink, elitism, cutting jobs, benefits, unions, concentration camps, authoritarianism all they like.  They can try to justify it by saying retaining their privileged position justifies hurting the things that got them that position.

Just so long as they recognized that their selfishness and greed is noted, and that no matter how they mischaracterize their opponents, the crisis problems will be countered.

Sure they can lie to themselves.  They can cluck like chickens.  It won't do them any good.

I agree, blues continuing to do stuff like  this won't do them any good in the long run.

I agree, reds continuing to do stuff like this won't do them any good in the long run.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-20-2020, 10:25 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:59 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Identity Politics goes against equality by teaching/promoting inferiority and reliance upon the state. It's backwards and counter productive and impedes progress. The Democratic party is still racist and still uses racism as a political tool today. I'd suggest that you stop using it and playing with it like them before it blows up in your face.

It occurs to me that if the early part of the crisis, before the trigger and regeneracy, resembles the unravelling, then the younger generations have seen nothing but the unravelling.  The suggestion that the arrow of progress is decisive is most true of the crisis, and least true of the unraveling.  It this seems prudent to point out which side is which.

The side that tries to suppress the vote by frivolous lawsuits and throw away elections would be autocratic.  The side that tries to run get out the vote campaigns and wins the election just before the federal regeneracy is democratic.

The side that is endorsed by the Neo Nazi and KKK would be racist.  The side which is associated with the NAACP and NOW would be for equality.

The side which tears children from their parents and puts them in concentration camps is against human rights.  The side which respects all peoples rights would favor the arrow.

You can try doublespeak.  You can try to define the wrong end of the arrow as the pointy end.  It just makes you look ridiculous.

I’d suggest you quit the doublespeak before it blows up in your face.

C-Xer and his allies believe -- deeply believe -- that white America is under siege, and being attacked from all sides.  They also believe they are the true Americans, and their opponents are <insert your degrading characterization of choice>. If you believe that, and you also believe your adversaries are anti-American, then it's easy to declare a no-holds-barred standard in opposing them -- and that's where we are.

You have to admit that white America is taking a bunch of crap/flack for a sin associated with the Democratic party. We aren't no holds barred yet. We need to see some more of the same to get to that paoint. Oh, the Democratic side is really good at showing us more of the same these days. We're watching and waiting dude. I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be you or a Democrat in office when the war starts.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-22-2020, 01:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-22-2020, 12:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 12:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 10:25 AM)David Horn Wrote: C-Xer and his allies believe -- deeply believe -- that white America is under siege, and being attacked from all sides.  They also believe they are the true Americans, and their opponents are <insert your degrading characterization of choice>. If you believe that, and you also believe your adversaries are anti-American, then it's easy to declare a no-holds-barred standard in opposing them -- and that's where we are.

What they believe - deeply believe - is in the division of wealth, in small government, that by hurting the working man and wealth going to the elites they remain 'superior' to minorities.  It would take a Hiroshima level event to make the examine the worth of this belief.  The deaths caused by COVID and the Black Lives Matter protests are not allowed to penetrate their thoughts.

And they are being attacked from all sides for these beliefs.  They believe in Identity Politics, that America exists for them alone, and all others are locked out.  For believing that, it is proper that they be attacked from all sides.

For all the good that that recognizing the problem does.

They can try to embrace racism, doublethink, elitism, cutting jobs, benefits, unions, concentration camps, authoritarianism all they like.  They can try to justify it by saying retaining their privileged position justifies hurting the things that got them that position.

Just so long as they recognized that their selfishness and greed is noted, and that no matter how they mischaracterize their opponents, the crisis problems will be countered.

Sure they can lie to themselves.  They can cluck like chickens.  It won't do them any good.

I agree, blues continuing to do stuff like  this won't do them any good in the long run.

I agree, reds continuing to do stuff like this won't do them any good in the long run.

I disagree, reds doing what they're doing now will payoff for them in the long run. You forget, we see things the same way. We share the same goal. We're just on opposite sides and we view things from the opposite side of the spectrum. Dude, when marriages no longer work, you move to get out of a bad marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if Biden/Harris Presidency marks the end of the United States as we know it today.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-21-2020, 09:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-21-2020, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 06:21 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 04:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm sure that he has assembled the best that identity politics has to offer these days.

"Identity politics."  Interesting phrase.  It seems to be one of those racist key phrases.  It tries to make a positive out of racism.  Traditionally, the best jobs are reserved for white males.  It means your selection pool is very limited.  The result doesn't look like America, but a much smaller part of America which tends to be elitist.

Racism is one of the issues of the crisis, any you seem to be on the wrong side.  A look at the cabinet, and the Republicans are definitely on the wrong side.  The key problems of the crisis tend to be solved rather brutally.  This one, less so.  The arrow of progress - democracy, equality, human rights - seems not to be pointing in your direction these days.  Ignore the arrow and you find yourself heading for ruin.

Identity Politics goes against equality by teaching/promoting inferiority and reliance upon the state. It's backwards and counter productive and impedes progress. The Democratic party is still racist and still uses racism as a political tool today. I'd suggest that you stop using it and playing with it like them before it blows up in your face.

The most blatant expressions of identity politics are those of racist, reactionary white people who have contempt for anyone not white, straight, Christian, and similarly reactionary. Trump exploited that in the extreme. It worked once. The Democratic Party is much closer to being a Big Tent than is the Greedy Old Profiteers Party.

Enough white people have no use for that garbage that Trump could not get re-elected.

Hey, maybe that GOP abbreviation is worth saving after all. Now that we know what it really stands for. Thanks Paul Brower!

You can keep it, it's already become part of you, so to speak.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-21-2020, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 06:21 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 04:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm sure that he has assembled the best that identity politics has to offer these days.

"Identity politics."  Interesting phrase.  It seems to be one of those racist key phrases.  It tries to make a positive out of racism.  Traditionally, the best jobs are reserved for white males.  It means your selection pool is very limited.  The result doesn't look like America, but a much smaller part of America which tends to be elitist.

Racism is one of the issues of the crisis, any you seem to be on the wrong side.  A look at the cabinet, and the Republicans are definitely on the wrong side.  The key problems of the crisis tend to be solved rather brutally.  This one, less so.  The arrow of progress - democracy, equality, human rights - seems not to be pointing in your direction these days.  Ignore the arrow and you find yourself heading for ruin.

Identity Politics goes against equality by teaching/promoting inferiority and reliance upon the state. It's backwards and counter productive and impedes progress. The Democratic party is still racist and still uses racism as a political tool today. I'd suggest that you stop using it and playing with it like them before it blows up in your face.

The most blatant expressions of identity politics are those of racist, reactionary white people who have contempt for anyone not white, straight, Christian, and similarly reactionary. Trump exploited that in the extreme. It worked once. The Democratic Party is much closer to being a Big Tent than is the Greedy Old Profiteers Party.

Enough white people have no use for that garbage that Trump could not get re-elected.

Trump didn't try to exploit it like you and the Democrats have been exploiting it that's for sure. It will be interesting to see where you rank as far as importance and how you are treated when identity politics take over the Democratic portion of the country.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-22-2020, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-22-2020, 01:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree, reds continuing to do stuff like this won't do them any good in the long run.

I disagree, reds doing what they're doing now will payoff for them in the long run. You forget, we see things the same way. We share the same goal. We're just on opposite sides and we view things from the opposite side of the spectrum. Dude, when marriages no longer work, you move to get out of a bad marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if Biden/Harris Presidency marks the end of the United States as we know it today.

Hmm.  Rare agreement with that last.  The United States seldom looks a lot like it used to after the crisis ends and the old values fade.  No different this time.  

Continuing to enact the old values?  Less right.  When in the Civil Rights Movement ended, laws were passed that mandated providing equal service in many places.  The red went along with the law.  They may have grumbled about it among themselves, but they gave the appearance of complying while grumbling about 'identity politics' and 'excessive political correctness.'  I anticipate something similar happening in the near future.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-22-2020, 02:08 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-21-2020, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The most blatant expressions of identity politics are those of racist, reactionary white people who have contempt for anyone not white, straight, Christian, and similarly reactionary. Trump exploited that in the extreme. It worked once. The Democratic Party is much closer to being a Big Tent than is the Greedy Old Profiteers Party.

Enough white people have no use for that garbage that Trump could not get re-elected.

Trump didn't try to exploit it like you and the Democrats have been exploiting it that's for sure. It will be interesting to see where you rank as far as importance and how you are treated when identity politics take over the Democratic portion of the country.

How did they 'exploit' it?  By encouraging equality and human rights in participating in democracy?  That happens to be the arrow of progress.  That is what tends to happen in a crisis.  It is a feature, not a bug.

If you look at Trump's primarily white male enablers, he did exploit his tradition.  He did encourage the old values and in doing so support the values of his base.

[David Horn]

(12-20-2020, 12:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 10:25 AM)David Horn Wrote: C-Xer and his allies believe -- deeply believe -- that white America is under siege, and being attacked from all sides.  They also believe they are the true Americans, and their opponents are <insert your degrading characterization of choice>. If you believe that, and you also believe your adversaries are anti-American, then it's easy to declare a no-holds-barred standard in opposing them -- and that's where we are.

What they believe - deeply believe - is in the division of wealth, in small government, that by hurting the working man and wealth going to the elites they remain 'superior' to minorities.  It would take a Hiroshima level event to make the examine the worth of this belief.  The deaths caused by COVID and the Black Lives Matter protests are not allowed to penetrate their thoughts.

And they are being attacked from all sides for these beliefs.  They believe in Identity Politics, that America exists for them alone, and all others are locked out.  For believing that, it is proper that they be attacked from all sides.

For all the good that that recognizing the problem does.

They can try to embrace racism, doublethink, elitism, cutting jobs, benefits, unions, concentration camps, authoritarianism all they like.  They can try to justify it by saying retaining their privileged position justifies hurting the things that got them that position.

Just so long as they recognized that there selfishness and greed is noted, and that no matter how they mischaracterize their opponents, the crisis problems will be countered.

Sure they can lie to themselves.  They can cluck like chickens.  It won't do them any good.

I used to believe it was all cynical, but not so much anymore, If you feel under siege -- rightly or wrongly --  you will react to the oppression, even though it may not actually exist.  Starting from there, it's really hard to get to a mental place that will allow unbiased observation.  And fwiw, we all suffer from that to some extent; we all have our demons.  The best of us can acknowledge our biases and try to balance them.  If getting there is considered weak or traitorous, then biases fester until they dominate.  C-Xer isn't quite there, but he's far enough along that simple argument is no longer a potential counterweight.  He'll have to do this the hard way. We have plenty on our side of the argument who fall into the same abyss.  It's only a case of how deep. I'm certainly as subject to that as anyone else.

[David Horn]

(12-22-2020, 01:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You have to admit that white America is taking a bunch of crap/flack for a sin associated with the Democratic party. We aren't no holds barred yet. We need to see some more of the same to get to that point. Oh, the Democratic side is really good at showing us more of the same these days. We're watching and waiting dude. I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be you or a Democrat in office  when the war starts.

There are more and more people on the left who see the GOP as fully engaged already.  Dems tend to be olive-branch types, but the eagle holds a talon of arrows too.  If the Dems put down the olive branch and embrace the quiver of arrows, it won't be pretty.  And if this actually devolves into open warfare, no one will win.  No one!

[pbrower2a]

(12-22-2020, 01:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 10:25 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:59 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Identity Politics goes against equality by teaching/promoting inferiority and reliance upon the state. It's backwards and counter productive and impedes progress. The Democratic party is still racist and still uses racism as a political tool today. I'd suggest that you stop using it and playing with it like them before it blows up in your face.

It occurs to me that if the early part of the crisis, before the trigger and regeneracy, resembles the unravelling, then the younger generations have seen nothing but the unravelling.  The suggestion that the arrow of progress is decisive is most true of the crisis, and least true of the unraveling.  It this seems prudent to point out which side is which.

The side that tries to suppress the vote by frivolous lawsuits and throw away elections would be autocratic.  The side that tries to run get out the vote campaigns and wins the election just before the federal regeneracy is democratic.

The side that is endorsed by the Neo Nazi and KKK would be racist.  The side which is associated with the NAACP and NOW would be for equality.

The side which tears children from their parents and puts them in concentration camps is against human rights.  The side which respects all peoples rights would favor the arrow.

You can try doublespeak.  You can try to define the wrong end of the arrow as the pointy end.  It just makes you look ridiculous.

I’d suggest you quit the doublespeak before it blows up in your face.

C-Xer and his allies believe -- deeply believe -- that white America is under siege, and being attacked from all sides.  They also believe they are the true Americans, and their opponents are <insert your degrading characterization of choice>. If you believe that, and you also believe your adversaries are anti-American, then it's easy to declare a no-holds-barred standard in opposing them -- and that's where we are.

You have to admit that white America is taking a bunch of crap/flack for a sin associated with the Democratic party. We aren't no holds barred yet. We need to see some more of the same to get to that point. Oh, the Democratic side is really good at showing us more of the same these days. We're watching and waiting dude. I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be you or a Democrat in office  when the war starts.

"White" more establishes what one is not than what one is. "White" people do not form a monolithic mass, as America comprises people of disparate origins even if from Europe, and all sorts of composites. Most white people pick and choose, most likely the result of one's ancestral culture, but not always. I would not expect Finnish-Americans to act much like Cajuns... 

So if someone wants to be proud of the Polish culture of his Polish ancestors, then such is fine.  In my case I look at the average of the origin of the music to which I listen, and if I were to describe where I would place it it would probably be somewhere in the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. I do not have Austrian, Czech, or Hungarian ancestry... but even at that if I were to pick the best folk culture in music I might pick Czech or Polish. 

People proud to be white are proud of nothing.

[Eric the Green]

(12-22-2020, 01:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 10:25 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:59 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2020, 07:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Identity Politics goes against equality by teaching/promoting inferiority and reliance upon the state. It's backwards and counter productive and impedes progress. The Democratic party is still racist and still uses racism as a political tool today. I'd suggest that you stop using it and playing with it like them before it blows up in your face.

It occurs to me that if the early part of the crisis, before the trigger and regeneracy, resembles the unravelling, then the younger generations have seen nothing but the unravelling.  The suggestion that the arrow of progress is decisive is most true of the crisis, and least true of the unraveling.  It this seems prudent to point out which side is which.

The side that tries to suppress the vote by frivolous lawsuits and throw away elections would be autocratic.  The side that tries to run get out the vote campaigns and wins the election just before the federal regeneracy is democratic.

The side that is endorsed by the Neo Nazi and KKK would be racist.  The side which is associated with the NAACP and NOW would be for equality.

The side which tears children from their parents and puts them in concentration camps is against human rights.  The side which respects all peoples rights would favor the arrow.

You can try doublespeak.  You can try to define the wrong end of the arrow as the pointy end.  It just makes you look ridiculous.

I’d suggest you quit the doublespeak before it blows up in your face.

C-Xer and his allies believe -- deeply believe -- that white America is under siege, and being attacked from all sides.  They also believe they are the true Americans, and their opponents are <insert your degrading characterization of choice>. If you believe that, and you also believe your adversaries are anti-American, then it's easy to declare a no-holds-barred standard in opposing them -- and that's where we are.

You have to admit that white America is taking a bunch of crap/flack for a sin associated with the Democratic party. We aren't no holds barred yet. We need to see some more of the same to get to that paoint. Oh, the Democratic side is really good at showing us more of the same these days. We're watching and waiting dude. I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be you or a Democrat in office  when the war starts.

We're gonna tax ya, tax ya up the wall! We're gonna make ya pay! Take away yer business to stop climate change! We're gonna take away all yer guns! We're gonna open the borders! Lotsa new Democrats! We're gonna defund the police and let BLM burn down yer suburbs, and then move in! Lots of free stuff for the poor and the lazy! Quasi-socialism here we come!!! And if ya resist, we'll put yers all away and lock ya up!

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-22-2020, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We're gonna tax ya, tax ya up the wall! We're gonna make ya pay! Take away yer business to stop climate change! We're gonna take away all yer guns! We're gonna open the borders! Lotsa new Democrats! We're gonna defund the police and let BLM burn down yer suburbs, and then move in! Lots of free stuff for the poor and the lazy! Quasi-socialism here we come!!! And if ya resist, we'll put yers all away and lock ya up!

(Quietly hands Eric his bag of meds.)

[Bob Butler 54]

Pardon me. I'm trying to remember. Did Trump promise to clean up the swamp, or to pardon it?

[Eric the Green]

(12-22-2020, 03:47 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-22-2020, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We're gonna tax ya, tax ya up the wall! We're gonna make ya pay! Take away yer business to stop climate change! We're gonna take away all yer guns! We're gonna open the borders! Lotsa new Democrats! We're gonna defund the police and let BLM burn down yer suburbs, and then move in! Lots of free stuff for the poor and the lazy! Quasi-socialism here we come!!! And if ya resist, we'll put yers all away and lock ya up!

(Quietly hands Eric his bag of meds.)

It may be time to leave Classic Xer behind, and depart from this spam-infected site and move over to facebook, don't you think?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-23-2020, 12:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It may be time to leave Classic Xer behind, and depart from this spam-infected site and move over to facebook, don't you think?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524

Could very well be.  There has been an exchange over on the Generational Dynamics thread about how to recover some sort of moderator.  I sent an email to the original creator, and have thus far received no response.  Facebook would be one possible place to set up again.

Not sure about individual posters or setting up a blue bias in who is accepted as members.  There is already a Facebook group that does that sort of thing, and as you and I were rejected by that philosophy, I am not impressed.  Intent debate between people who genuinely hold different philosophies seems to be the rival approach taken by this site.  I am more ready to continue that.  

Also not sure we should go with a invite only secret group approach, but a public group with name and descriptions that welcomes new people.

At any rate somebody would have to visit here often enough that an old intermittent user could find a pointer to the new group, not buried in spam.

[Eric the Green]

(12-23-2020, 01:07 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-23-2020, 12:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It may be time to leave Classic Xer behind, and depart from this spam-infected site and move over to facebook, don't you think?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/396877864887524

Could very well be.  There has been an exchange over on the Generational Dynamics thread about how to recover some sort of moderator.  I sent an email to the original creator, and have thus far received no response.  Facebook would be one possible place to set up again.

Not sure about individual posters or setting up a blue bias in who is accepted as members.  There is already a Facebook group that does that sort of thing, and as you and I were rejected by that philosophy, I am not impressed.  Intent debate between people who genuinely hold different philosophies seems to be the rival approach taken by this site.  I am more ready to continue that.  

Also not sure we should go with a invite only secret group approach, but a public group with name and descriptions that welcomes new people.

At any rate somebody would have to visit here often enough that an old intermittent user could find a pointer to the new group, not buried in spam.

I am in agreement.

There is a file in the new FB site about group rules, so you might want to check that out.

I am the only admin/moderator for now, but I hope to have 1 or 2 more soon.

I would not mind continuing also on this group, but a moderator does need to be on the job. But I will do as you suggest.

[Einzige]

I wish Eric were something other than a petit-bourg environmentalist. Ted Kaczynski puts you to shame, lib (and I don't even agree with Teddy K.).

[Eric the Green]

(12-23-2020, 05:41 PM)Einzige Wrote: I wish Eric were something other than a petit-bourg environmentalist. Ted Kaczynski puts you to shame, lib (and I don't even agree with Teddy K.).

I don't have the full physical or mental capacity to be a terrorist. I guess I'll leave that to you or Classic, if you really feel up to it.

[Einzige]

(12-23-2020, 09:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-23-2020, 05:41 PM)Einzige Wrote: I wish Eric were something other than a petit-bourg environmentalist. Ted Kaczynski puts you to shame, lib (and I don't even agree with Teddy K.).

I don't have the full physical or mental capacity to be a terrorist. I guess I'll leave that to you or Classic, if you really feel up to it.

You don't need to be a terrorist. But you should put your money where your mouth is and look into adopting a genuine ecologistic lifestyle. There are schools, like Wild Root School, to help you.

[Eric the Green]

(12-23-2020, 10:23 PM)Einzige Wrote:

(12-23-2020, 09:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-23-2020, 05:41 PM)Einzige Wrote: I wish Eric were something other than a petit-bourg environmentalist. Ted Kaczynski puts you to shame, lib (and I don't even agree with Teddy K.).

I don't have the full physical or mental capacity to be a terrorist. I guess I'll leave that to you or Classic, if you really feel up to it.

You don't need to be a terrorist. But you should put your money where your mouth is and look into adopting a genuine ecologistic lifestyle. There are schools, like Wild Root School, to help you.

Well, I was one of the first people I knew back in the early 70s to recycle, and I helped in the creation of the first community garden and my school recycling center. I was on the central committee of my local Green Party. I screwed in eco-lights before most people did. Recently, I've made a couple of important transitions toward green energy. And so on. But, just as being a terrorist like Ted K would put me beyond my comfort zone, I feel no need to go to all possible green extremes in my personal life. I don't like farming or growing my own food, for example. But if the right policies are ever adopted after 40 years of neo-liberalism, none of us will have to go back to living like savages. A Green economy with abundance is possible with the right policies and innovation. I will follow my bliss. I will write books and music, and I will donate, exercize and organize.

But the problem, in my life, is not the economy per se. It's people who abuse me. Both my personal and my social/political experience reminds me that humans are still a very primitive species. We mistreat each other badly. Tonight I nurse my wounds. We have emerged from caves only 11,000 years ago, and established an enduring (though flawed) democracy (so far) only 244 years ago, and many people still have yet to see it. Not to mention a true social or socialist democracy, or a green one. And our spiritual knowledge has barely advanced since Buddha and Christ, especially in The West where emperors took over the movement of the founder and created a Church which keeps genuine esoteric knowledge of truth, God and the soul under wraps. And meanwhile our 400-year old science has created its own materialist religion and has been put to the use of greed and war. We have a lot to learn.