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(01-12-2021, 03:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-11-2021, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-10-2021, 03:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: That would be perfect. I think you guys need to do do every thing you can to destroy Trump and anger/turn/divide Americans further right now. The GOP working with the Democrats to oust Trump will turn out to be the worst decision/mistake they ever made politically.
Trump foments an insurrection, and this is your response? Really?   
Dude, you were okay with insurrections going on all summer long and would've been okay with them continuing had Trump won. What, did you suddenly sprout a pair of angel wings and a halo and find Jesus? I don't give a crap about Biden anymore than you gave a crap about Trump. Biden means nothing to me.
Dude, Black Lives Matters has such a narrow objective that conservatives could go along with it. It is not a call for soft treatment of offenders; it is for making cops less trigger-happy around black people. Excessive brutality that seems to have a racial undertone is not good for the hard-earned good will that many police want with the communities that they are charged "to protect and serve". I am basically a conservative on law and order, and I am satisfied that the more precarious one's economic and social position, the more one needs it as a defense from the worst people in the overall community.
...Joe Biden, by all accounts, is a devout Catholic. That may not be your favorite sort of Christian, but given a choice between a devout Catholic and someone as godless as Donald Trump who has no moral values, I'll take someone who has moral values that preclude the haughty, deceitful, corrupt way of Donald Trump.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(01-12-2021, 03:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, you were okay with insurrections going on all summer long and would've been okay with them continuing had Trump won. What, did you suddenly sprout a pair of angel wings and a halo and find Jesus? I don't give a crap about Biden anymore than you gave a crap about Trump. Biden means nothing to me.
The BLM protests were not insurrections. They were an attempt to tell the Democrats that they could get votes by listening to the people. They were following the pattern set by Gandhi and King. They were not attempts to overthrow the government by force.
The Boogaloo Bois? They were trying to start their boogaloo. Overthrowing the government was their long term goal, even if taking advantage of the BLM protests wasn't apt to get them there. Hanging on to the supposed 'voter fraud' protests? That got them a lot closer. Whether that is comparable to Pearl Harbor's waking the sleeping giant is unclear.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(01-12-2021, 03:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-11-2021, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-10-2021, 03:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: That would be perfect. I think you guys need to do do every thing you can to destroy Trump and anger/turn/divide Americans further right now. The GOP working with the Democrats to oust Trump will turn out to be the worst decision/mistake they ever made politically.
Trump foments an insurrection, and this is your response? Really?
Dude, you were okay with insurrections going on all summer long and would've been okay with them continuing had Trump won. What, did you suddenly sprout a pair of angel wings and a halo and find Jesus? I don't give a crap about Biden anymore than you gave a crap about Trump. Biden means nothing to me.
Actually, I wasn't, but none of the protests got as testy as this one ... not by a long shot! More to the point, none of the others tried to overthrow an election. Most were just noisy. None got a handwave like this one either. Capitol Police were intentionally undermanned, an issue that will be investigated I'm certain.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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I've come to learn too much about the senate rules and the constitution. You can invoke the 25th amendment with a group specified by law, not the cabinet. That is in the 25th amendment. To get a law passed, you have to convene the senate. This the majority and minority leaders could do, being McConnell and Schiff. McConnell could block either scheduling of the 25 not the cabinet resolution, or an impeachment resolution. So, there are three ways of blocking anything. As McConnell is the master of obstruction, obstruction is certainly possible.
But if he uses any of those three, McConnell owns whatever Trump does.
25th Section 4 Wrote:Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department14 or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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01-12-2021, 06:30 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2021, 06:50 PM by Classic-Xer.)
(01-12-2021, 01:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (01-12-2021, 03:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, you were okay with insurrections going on all summer long and would've been okay with them continuing had Trump won. What, did you suddenly sprout a pair of angel wings and a halo and find Jesus? I don't give a crap about Biden anymore than you gave a crap about Trump. Biden means nothing to me.
The BLM protests were not insurrections. They were an attempt to tell the Democrats that they could get votes by listening to the people. They were following the pattern set by Gandhi and King. They were not attempts to overthrow the government by force.
The Boogaloo Bois? They were trying to start their boogaloo. Overthrowing the government was their long term goal, even if taking advantage of the BLM protests wasn't apt to get them there. Hanging on to the supposed 'voter fraud' protests? That got them a lot closer. Whether that is comparable to Pearl Harbor's waking the sleeping giant is unclear.
You are cherry picking. The BLM movement was related and responsible for much of the violence and destruction that we witnessed for several months. Right now, there's a police precinct in Minneapolis that no longer exists thanks to a combination of Antifa and Black Lives Matter engaging in an act of insurrection. You supported it by supporting BLM protestors as it was all going on and a group of corporate sponsors supported it too and helped fuel a national get out the vote drive too.
I know it would take an army of FBI agents that we don't have several months to investigate and certify every vote that was cast for President of the US in 2020. I also know there's a strict timeline in place for the peaceful transfer of power as well. Corporations having the power to do what they're doing now with Democratic support is what's going to wake up the giant and place the lives of everyone of them at risk dude. Your head is somewhere else (up your butt or someone else's butt or cloud nine) and you don't seem to realize that you're supporting a fascist like regime that will be given power in 8 days. Pull your head out, it's 4T and the next four years are going to get ugly as your politicians and their corporate friends/masters find out how powerless and unprotected they truly are when they find themselves at odds/war with most of America.
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(01-12-2021, 04:27 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-12-2021, 03:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-11-2021, 12:06 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-10-2021, 03:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: That would be perfect. I think you guys need to do do every thing you can to destroy Trump and anger/turn/divide Americans further right now. The GOP working with the Democrats to oust Trump will turn out to be the worst decision/mistake they ever made politically.
Trump foments an insurrection, and this is your response? Really?
Dude, you were okay with insurrections going on all summer long and would've been okay with them continuing had Trump won. What, did you suddenly sprout a pair of angel wings and a halo and find Jesus? I don't give a crap about Biden anymore than you gave a crap about Trump. Biden means nothing to me.
Actually, I wasn't, but none of the protests got as testy as this one ... not by a long shot! More to the point, none of the others tried to overthrow an election. Most were just noisy. None got a handwave like this one either. Capitol Police were intentionally undermanned, an issue that will be investigated I'm certain.
What do you mean by they weren't as testy? The siege of the Federal Court in Portland and the ICE building/facility in Seattle were more testy and drug on for months as others were protesting and establishing autonomous zones and others were clashing with more extreme Right Wing groups. Dude, it would take more than a thousand people who were mainly unarmed to over throw an election that 160,000,000 people participated in. All a group that size could do is disrupt and make a mockery of a bunch of worthless politicians like it did. You want to know what I think, I think the reputation of the American right which is much better than that of the Left was exploited by a group of ruffians who surprised an unexpected group of lighter security last week. Now, they'll never say it or admit one group is viewed as better and less of a risk than the other but I bet that's what happened last week.
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01-12-2021, 08:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2021, 11:33 PM by Classic-Xer.)
(01-09-2021, 05:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Some posts from the Facebook site that got promptly buried. I'll repeat them here where you have the forum format's greater control. I'm sort of with Dave in having a dislike of Facebook.
I have heard that the insurgents behind the capital riots are starting to talk about a repeat on January 17th. The internet talk has been intercepted. The police could be ready for it if they chose to be. We will see if the force available and the no arrest policies have changed. It seems likely. Putting up huge forces against BLM but obviously inadequate forces against Trump's insurgents has drawn attention. MSNBC's Joy Reid ranted on the subject. Meanwhile, I expect the insurgents might break down and wear masks and not put their insurgency on the net.
The House is running a fast track impeachment. In the Senate, McConnell put out a memo suggesting he will slow schedule it, that he would not start a trial until Biden was going to be inaugurated anyway. Last night, Schiff was on MSNBC. He thinks McConnell is bluffing. If he were to block rapid impeachment, he would own everything Trump did in the remaining days. McConnell would be better off putting the credit or blame on all senators, rather than shining history’s spotlight on himself.
Rachel also made another point. Conviction requires two thirds of the senators present at the trial. It does not require two thirds of the senators. If 20 or so senators stayed away from the trial, the fifty or so Democratic and independent votes for conviction is enough for two thirds, plus a few Republicans who have suggested that they would vote to convict. That allows Republican a route by staying away to not bump into Trump head on but still do their part to see Trump convicted.
Another point is that while it takes two thirds to convict, it only takes a simple majority to ban the convicted from holding office or a position of authority again. This would be a later vote held only if they got a conviction.
They also showed a draft version of the article of impeachment. While it was short and to the point for a official document, it could be made shorter and easier to attract Republican votes.
The GOP is clinging to life right now and when it is widely understood among them that impeaching Trump would result in the death of the GOP and the rise of a much more formidable American First party that would be able match the Progressives tit for tat. The chance of them actually going along and actually doing it will be none. McConnell and The GOP establishment that's left are f-d either way. All it would take is one more hollow victory to wipe them and leave them behind for wolf food.
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01-12-2021, 09:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2021, 09:11 PM by Einzige.)
(01-12-2021, 08:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-09-2021, 05:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Some posts from the Facebook site that got promptly buried. I'll repeat them here where you have the forum format's greater control. I'm sort of with Dave in having a dislike of Facebook.
I have heard that the insurgents behind the capital riots are starting to talk about a repeat on January 17th. The internet talk has been intercepted. The police could be ready for it if they chose to be. We will see if the force available and the no arrest policies have changed. It seems likely. Putting up huge forces against BLM but obviously inadequate forces against Trump's insurgents has drawn attention. MSNBC's Joy Reid ranted on the subject. Meanwhile, I expect the insurgents might break down and wear masks and not put their insurgency on the net.
The House is running a fast track impeachment. In the Senate, McConnell put out a memo suggesting he will slow schedule it, that he would not start a trial until Biden was going to be inaugurated anyway. Last night, Schiff was on MSNBC. He thinks McConnell is bluffing. If he were to block rapid impeachment, he would own everything Trump did in the remaining days. McConnell would be better off putting the credit or blame on all senators, rather than shining history’s spotlight on himself.
Rachel also made another point. Conviction requires two thirds of the senators present at the trial. It does not require two thirds of the senators. If 20 or so senators stayed away from the trial, the fifty or so Democratic and independent votes for conviction is enough for two thirds, plus a few Republicans who have suggested that they would vote to convict. That allows Republican a route by staying away to not bump into Trump head on but still do their part to see Trump convicted.
Another point is that while it takes two thirds to convict, it only takes a simple majority to ban the convicted from holding office or a position of authority again. This would be a later vote held only if they got a conviction.
They also showed a draft version of the article of impeachment. While it was short and to the point for a official document, it could be made shorter and easier to attract Republican votes.
The GOP is clinging to life right now and when it is widely understood among them that impeaching Trump would result in the death of the GOP and the rise of a much more formidable American First party that would be able match the Progressives tit for tat the chance of them actually going along and doing it will be none. McConnell and The GOP establishment that's left are f-d either way. All it would take is one more hollow victory to wipe them and leave them behind for wolf food.
The America First pablum has appeal only to small business owners and the reactionary segment of the proletariat. Big business has no interest in it. Among the military, only the lowest grades are MAGA types - higher grades of enlisted and officers, when they are conservative. Are thoroughly establishment. You'll fail.
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(01-12-2021, 09:07 PM)Einzige Wrote: (01-12-2021, 08:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-09-2021, 05:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Some posts from the Facebook site that got promptly buried. I'll repeat them here where you have the forum format's greater control. I'm sort of with Dave in having a dislike of Facebook.
I have heard that the insurgents behind the capital riots are starting to talk about a repeat on January 17th. The internet talk has been intercepted. The police could be ready for it if they chose to be. We will see if the force available and the no arrest policies have changed. It seems likely. Putting up huge forces against BLM but obviously inadequate forces against Trump's insurgents has drawn attention. MSNBC's Joy Reid ranted on the subject. Meanwhile, I expect the insurgents might break down and wear masks and not put their insurgency on the net.
The House is running a fast track impeachment. In the Senate, McConnell put out a memo suggesting he will slow schedule it, that he would not start a trial until Biden was going to be inaugurated anyway. Last night, Schiff was on MSNBC. He thinks McConnell is bluffing. If he were to block rapid impeachment, he would own everything Trump did in the remaining days. McConnell would be better off putting the credit or blame on all senators, rather than shining history’s spotlight on himself.
Rachel also made another point. Conviction requires two thirds of the senators present at the trial. It does not require two thirds of the senators. If 20 or so senators stayed away from the trial, the fifty or so Democratic and independent votes for conviction is enough for two thirds, plus a few Republicans who have suggested that they would vote to convict. That allows Republican a route by staying away to not bump into Trump head on but still do their part to see Trump convicted.
Another point is that while it takes two thirds to convict, it only takes a simple majority to ban the convicted from holding office or a position of authority again. This would be a later vote held only if they got a conviction.
They also showed a draft version of the article of impeachment. While it was short and to the point for a official document, it could be made shorter and easier to attract Republican votes.
The GOP is clinging to life right now and when it is widely understood among them that impeaching Trump would result in the death of the GOP and the rise of a much more formidable American First party that would be able match the Progressives tit for tat the chance of them actually going along and doing it will be none. McConnell and The GOP establishment that's left are f-d either way. All it would take is one more hollow victory to wipe them and leave them behind for wolf food.
The America First pablum has appeal only to small business owners and the reactionary segment of the proletariat. Big business has no interest in it. Among the military, only the lowest grades are MAGA types - higher grades of enlisted and officers, when they are conservative. Are thoroughly establishment. You'll fail.
I don't know, 70 some million people voted for Trump and America First despite everything bad that happened over the last four years. Like I said, we are going to have the chance to see how tough the Democratic party is over the next four years. The Democratic party seems to be pretty insecure in nature to me. As I recall, you and I had a bit of a nasty run in back in 2016.
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(01-12-2021, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I've come to learn too much about the senate rules and the constitution. You can invoke the 25th amendment with a group specified by law, not the cabinet. That is in the 25th amendment. To get a law passed, you have to convene the senate. This the majority and minority leaders could do, being McConnell and Schiff. McConnell could block either scheduling of the 25 not the cabinet resolution, or an impeachment resolution. So, there are three ways of blocking anything. As McConnell is the master of obstruction, obstruction is certainly possible.
But if he uses any of those three, McConnell owns whatever Trump does.
25th Section 4 Wrote:Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department14 or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
McConnell owns whatever Trump says or does from here on anyway, he's the only Republican leader that's left. The Democrats will make sure of that from here on.
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(01-12-2021, 08:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-09-2021, 05:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Some posts from the Facebook site that got promptly buried. I'll repeat them here where you have the forum format's greater control. I'm sort of with Dave in having a dislike of Facebook.
I have heard that the insurgents behind the capital riots are starting to talk about a repeat on January 17th. The internet talk has been intercepted. The police could be ready for it if they chose to be. We will see if the force available and the no arrest policies have changed. It seems likely. Putting up huge forces against BLM but obviously inadequate forces against Trump's insurgents has drawn attention. MSNBC's Joy Reid ranted on the subject. Meanwhile, I expect the insurgents might break down and wear masks and not put their insurgency on the net.
The House is running a fast track impeachment. In the Senate, McConnell put out a memo suggesting he will slow schedule it, that he would not start a trial until Biden was going to be inaugurated anyway. Last night, Schiff was on MSNBC. He thinks McConnell is bluffing. If he were to block rapid impeachment, he would own everything Trump did in the remaining days. McConnell would be better off putting the credit or blame on all senators, rather than shining history’s spotlight on himself.
Rachel also made another point. Conviction requires two thirds of the senators present at the trial. It does not require two thirds of the senators. If 20 or so senators stayed away from the trial, the fifty or so Democratic and independent votes for conviction is enough for two thirds, plus a few Republicans who have suggested that they would vote to convict. That allows Republican a route by staying away to not bump into Trump head on but still do their part to see Trump convicted.
Another point is that while it takes two thirds to convict, it only takes a simple majority to ban the convicted from holding office or a position of authority again. This would be a later vote held only if they got a conviction.
They also showed a draft version of the article of impeachment. While it was short and to the point for a official document, it could be made shorter and easier to attract Republican votes.
The GOP is clinging to life right now and when it is widely understood among them that impeaching Trump would result in the death of the GOP and the rise of a much more formidable American First party that would be able match the Progressives tit for tat the chance of them actually going along and doing it will be none. McConnell and The GOP establishment that's left are f-d either way. All it would take is one more hollow victory to wipe them and leave them behind for wolf food.
Possible scenarios now that a Trump dictatorship is no longer possible. In view of some threats to the inauguration, the definitive earthly statement on who will be inaugurated President on January 20, 2021 is now the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which leaves no ambiguity about the 2021 election. Lacking an obvious and unambiguous link to the Almighty, I cannot think of anything more definitive.
1. The Republican Party fades into near-irrelevance for a while and becomes an alternative for those running against corruption in the Big Tent party or as the only meaningful alternative when machine politics entrench pols. It revives in the wake of some economic distress (like those involving post-WWII reconversion to a civilian economy) or perhaps (because we are no longer early in the Crisis of 2020 -- more likely near its end) as a cultural struggle emerges in the next Awakening Era. Such parallels what happened to the party of Lincoln after the Great Depression.
2. The Republican Party dies as did the Federalists (about 1820) or Whigs (about 1850), with the Democratic Party becoming an unwieldy Big Tent party that accepts a wide variety of positions among its membership. It is the only game in town (think of South Africa at the end of Apartheid), and after a couple of decades later it rifts as incompatible factions form within it. Those Parties become Parties in their own right. That is how the Free Soil (now Republican) Party.
3. The Republican Party becomes increasingly a fringe party as the Democratic Party starts to represent something like 60-70% of the vote. The Democratic Party enters an era of Good Feelings (there is no more apt time than a 1T for such), and the Democratic Party separates in a way mor ereminiscent of some other near-two-Party systems as in Germany or the UK (Christian Democrats and Social Democrats; Conservatives and Labour; paradoxically the US system was more like the Irish political divide, with neither Party quite calling itself socialist).
We are in what is most likely a swift transition to another Skowronek Era in which the political language and strongest agendas are very different from those of the preceding era. Donald Trump is becoming a scapegoat, and with him go down any political tendencies that fostered or went along with him.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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01-13-2021, 01:15 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2021, 05:49 AM by Classic-Xer.)
(01-13-2021, 12:02 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Possible scenarios now that a Trump dictatorship is no longer possible. In view of some threats to the inauguration, the definitive earthly statement on who will be inaugurated President on January 20, 2021 is now the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which leaves no ambiguity about the 2021 election. Lacking an obvious and unambiguous link to the Almighty, I cannot think of anything more definitive.
1. The Republican Party fades into near-irrelevance for a while and becomes an alternative for those running against corruption in the Big Tent party or as the only meaningful alternative when machine politics entrench pols. It revives in the wake of some economic distress (like those involving post-WWII reconversion to a civilian economy) or perhaps (because we are no longer early in the Crisis of 2020 -- more likely near its end) as a cultural struggle emerges in the next Awakening Era. Such parallels what happened to the party of Lincoln after the Great Depression.
2. The Republican Party dies as did the Federalists (about 1820) or Whigs (about 1850), with the Democratic Party becoming an unwieldy Big Tent party that accepts a wide variety of positions among its membership. It is the only game in town (think of South Africa at the end of Apartheid), and after a couple of decades later it rifts as incompatible factions form within it. Those Parties become Parties in their own right. That is how the Free Soil (now Republican) Party.
3. The Republican Party becomes increasingly a fringe party as the Democratic Party starts to represent something like 60-70% of the vote. The Democratic Party enters an era of Good Feelings (there is no more apt time than a 1T for such), and the Democratic Party separates in a way mor ereminiscent of some other near-two-Party systems as in Germany or the UK (Christian Democrats and Social Democrats; Conservatives and Labour; paradoxically the US system was more like the Irish political divide, with neither Party quite calling itself socialist).
We are in what is most likely a swift transition to another Skowronek Era in which the political language and strongest agendas are very different from those of the preceding era. Donald Trump is becoming a scapegoat, and with him go down any political tendencies that fostered or went along with him.
A Trump dictatorship wasn't possible and would never have been possible. A Trump dictatorship was a figment of the Lefts imagination and a constant meme associated with a hate/fear campaign used by Left Wing demagogues like yourself who are into spreading Left Wing propaganda via the media and internet. Now Biden is another story. Biden/ Harris and the Democratic party representing and functioning like a dictatorship is much more legitimate and far more believable right now and the near future. You see the Democratic party could vote to change some more long standing rules and shut out the Republicans like before and pass whatever it wants and give itself more power than the size of it's victory deserves to ensure that it remains in power for decades. I don't think it will go over so well with today's America or the American consumer of today. Americans don't like violence and America sees violence as Democrats are passing something or not passing something the American are going to begin associating the Democrats with violence as it should these days.
If you had a set of eyes and ears and a mind that worked properly, you would be able to see and learn that what we've been saying or writing about the Democratic party's need for power all a long is true these days. The Democratic party and it's corporate allies are currently functioning as a fascist regime right now. I'm not a fascist or a communist or a Democratic quasi socialist believer of some sort who could go or swing either way. I'm an American believer like my American fore fathers. The GOP establishment is on the verge of losing the support of about 80% of its base across the nation which is dumb of them. They're making the same mistake as the Bush wing Republicans. Unfortunately for them, a repeat of history may be necessary to achieve an ultimate goal. I guess they won't mind living in a socialist/fascist country where corporations and mass media outlets and mobs of anarchists have more power than them and all the people that they represent these days.
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(01-13-2021, 01:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-13-2021, 12:02 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Possible scenarios now that a Trump dictatorship is no longer possible. In view of some threats to the inauguration, the definitive earthly statement on who will be inaugurated President on January 20, 2021 is now the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which leaves no ambiguity about the 2021 election. Lacking an obvious and unambiguous link to the Almighty, I cannot think of anything more definitive.
1. The Republican Party fades into near-irrelevance for a while and becomes an alternative for those running against corruption in the Big Tent party or as the only meaningful alternative when machine politics entrench pols. It revives in the wake of some economic distress (like those involving post-WWII reconversion to a civilian economy) or perhaps (because we are no longer early in the Crisis of 2020 -- more likely near its end) as a cultural struggle emerges in the next Awakening Era. Such parallels what happened to the party of Lincoln after the Great Depression.
2. The Republican Party dies as did the Federalists (about 1820) or Whigs (about 1850), with the Democratic Party becoming an unwieldy Big Tent party that accepts a wide variety of positions among its membership. It is the only game in town (think of South Africa at the end of Apartheid), and after a couple of decades later it rifts as incompatible factions form within it. Those Parties become Parties in their own right. That is how the Free Soil (now Republican) Party.
3. The Republican Party becomes increasingly a fringe party as the Democratic Party starts to represent something like 60-70% of the vote. The Democratic Party enters an era of Good Feelings (there is no more apt time than a 1T for such), and the Democratic Party separates in a way mor ereminiscent of some other near-two-Party systems as in Germany or the UK (Christian Democrats and Social Democrats; Conservatives and Labour; paradoxically the US system was more like the Irish political divide, with neither Party quite calling itself socialist).
We are in what is most likely a swift transition to another Skowronek Era in which the political language and strongest agendas are very different from those of the preceding era. Donald Trump is becoming a scapegoat, and with him go down any political tendencies that fostered or went along with him.
A Trump dictatorship wasn't possible and would never have been possible.
There were plenty of signs of dictatorial behavior which would have intensified in a second term. Trump's style of management is despotic in business, and he carries that over as President. Career businessmen are poor politicians almost as a rule. The government is not like a business.
Quote:A Trump dictatorship is a figment of imagination and a constant theme used by Left Wing demagogues like yourself who are into spreading Left Wing propaganda via the media and internet.
Are you saying that Trump had no chance of getting re-elected? That would have stopped him. Whoops! He encouraged people to nullify the election on his behalf. Mercifully he has failed.
Don't worry too much about having no second chance at some right-wing authoritarian with a despotic streak getting within range of the Presidency, especially should there be some economic, military, or diplomatic calamity. Millions of Americans would gladly sacrifice their essential liberty for economic betterment or for assertions of national pride.
Quote:Now Biden is another story. Biden or Harris and the Democrats representing and function like a dictatorship is much more legit.
Trump bled the Treasury to get re-elected. Farm subsidies to salve the effects of a trade war overcompensated for lost farm income. Such decided some states that usually go to Democrats in Democratic wins.
Quote:You see it could vote to change some rules and give itself more power than it deserves.
I hope that the Biden Administrations does things in one respect the old fashioned way: sponsoring legislation that allows people to make their lives better. Changing the tax laws to favor small business over monopolistic, vertically-integrated behemoths? Raising the ceiling (or lifting it altogether) on high personal incomes, especially from executive compensation -- including bonuses for putting employees out of work or exporting jobs to cheap-labor countries? If the economy starts to falter, then pushing big infrastructure projects that might get some Republican votes in the Senate -- let us say replacing US 83 with a freeway from the Canadian border to the Mexican border? (That would be a tough thing for twelve Republican Senators to pass up).
Serve the People well, and you get re-elected.
Quote:If you had a set of eyes and a mind that worked properly, you would be able to see and learn that what we've been talking about all along is true and you'd understand
Asperger's gives me problems that have no connection to logical thought. Hypersensitivity to sound and light, finding little joy in what many people find fun, and having eccentric interests mark me.
Quote: how that directly relates to you, your life and your immediate future as well. You better wise up before it's to late. Oh, its already to late. Welcome to the 4T.
Wise up about what? Does that mean sharing your political views? Hell no!
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(01-12-2021, 07:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-12-2021, 04:27 PM)David Horn Wrote: Actually, I wasn't, but none of the protests got as testy as this one ... not by a long shot! More to the point, none of the others tried to overthrow an election. Most were just noisy. None got a handwave like this one either. Capitol Police were intentionally undermanned, an issue that will be investigated I'm certain.
What do you mean by they weren't as testy? The siege of the Federal Court in Portland and the ICE building/facility in Seattle were more testy and drug on for months as others were protesting and establishing autonomous zones and others were clashing with more extreme Right Wing groups. Dude, it would take more than a thousand people who were mainly unarmed to over throw an election that 160,000,000 people participated in. All a group that size could do is disrupt and make a mockery of a bunch of worthless politicians like it did. You want to know what I think, I think the reputation of the American right which is much better than that of the Left was exploited by a group of ruffians who surprised an unexpected group of lighter security last week. Now, they'll never say it or admit one group is viewed as better and less of a risk than the other but I bet that's what happened last week.
There was a lot of violence in both Portland and Seattle, but no one gave it a handwave. People were arrested and prosecutions will proceed. In some cases, agents provocateur were involved, some being Proud Boys or Boogaloo Bois. Follow the local press for details if you're interested. But the Capitol insurrection is at a whole different level, because it was an attempt to disrupt the government of the nation -- an act clearly defined as sedition. That POTUS was an active participant is how we got where we are right now. Trump has finally gotten Republicans angry enough to throw him under the bus.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(01-13-2021, 11:42 AM)David Horn Wrote: (01-12-2021, 07:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-12-2021, 04:27 PM)David Horn Wrote: Actually, I wasn't, but none of the protests got as testy as this one ... not by a long shot! More to the point, none of the others tried to overthrow an election. Most were just noisy. None got a handwave like this one either. Capitol Police were intentionally undermanned, an issue that will be investigated I'm certain.
What do you mean by they weren't as testy? The siege of the Federal Court in Portland and the ICE building/facility in Seattle were more testy and drug on for months as others were protesting and establishing autonomous zones and others were clashing with more extreme Right Wing groups. Dude, it would take more than a thousand people who were mainly unarmed to over throw an election that 160,000,000 people participated in. All a group that size could do is disrupt and make a mockery of a bunch of worthless politicians like it did. You want to know what I think, I think the reputation of the American right which is much better than that of the Left was exploited by a group of ruffians who surprised an unexpected group of lighter security last week. Now, they'll never say it or admit one group is viewed as better and less of a risk than the other but I bet that's what happened last week.
There was a lot of violence in both Portland and Seattle, but no one gave it a handwave. People were arrested and prosecutions will proceed. In some cases, agents provocateur were involved, some being Proud Boys or Boogaloo Bois. Follow the local press for details if you're interested. But the Capitol insurrection is at a whole different level, because it was an attempt to disrupt the government of the nation -- an act clearly defined as sedition. That POTUS was an active participant is how we got where we are right now. Trump has finally gotten Republicans angry enough to throw him under the bus.
There was a lot of violence across the entire country that the Democrats supported by doing little to nothing about it, saying little to nothing about it and allowing it to continue for several months that culminated with what we saw last week. EYES DO NOT LIE DAVE AND THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOW THE ONES POSITIONED TO LOOSE CONTROL OVER AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. YOUR NOT THINKING DAVE. THE WOMEN IN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AREN'T THINKING DAVE. THE WOMEN SUPPORTING THE REMOVAL OF TRUMP AREN'T THINKING DAVE. ALL THE WOMEN ARE DOING IS BRINGING THE COUNTRY CLOSER TO YEARS OF CIVIL UNREST AND ALL OUT CIVIL WAR RIGHT NOW. When its all said and done, the Democratic party will be a train wreck. Is that what you want?
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01-13-2021, 01:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2021, 01:59 PM by Bob Butler 54.)
(01-13-2021, 01:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: There was a lot of violence across the entire country that the Democrats supported by doing little to nothing about it, saying little to nothing about it and allowing it to continue for several months that culminated with what we saw last week. EYES DO NOT LIE DAVE AND THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOW THE ONES POSITIONED TO LOOSE CONTROL OVER AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. YOUR NOT THINKING DAVE. THE WOMEN IN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AREN'T THINKING DAVE. THE WOMEN SUPPORTING THE REMOVAL OF TRUMP AREN'T THINKING DAVE. ALL THE WOMEN ARE DOING IS BRINGING THE COUNTRY CLOSER TO YEARS OF CIVIL UNREST AND ALL OUT CIVIL WAR RIGHT NOW. When its all said and done, the Democratic party will be a train wreck. Is that what you want?
The difference is that they are thinking differently. Reds are best understood in abstract through tribal thinking. Divide between us and them, develop a healthy xenophobia about them, and use violence to assure superiority over them. Blues are WEIRDer. They care about principles such as democracy, equality, human rights and rule of law. It is an entirely different way of approaching things. I don’t feel confident that people seeking different goals will understand how the other is thinking.
In the crisis heart you usually find a focused efficient government. I know this is not how reds usually view Democrats, but it seems the direction Biden is heading in. We will see how he does, how well law and order does against those who think tribally.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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01-13-2021, 02:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2021, 03:14 PM by Classic-Xer.)
(01-13-2021, 04:07 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Are you saying that Trump had no chance of getting re-elected? That would have stopped him. Whoops! He encouraged people to nullify the election on his behalf. Mercifully he has failed.
Don't worry too much about having no second chance at some right-wing authoritarian with a despotic streak getting within range of the Presidency, especially should there be some economic, military, or diplomatic calamity. Millions of Americans would gladly sacrifice their essential liberty for economic betterment or for assertions of national pride.
I'm saying Trump and the Republicans showed no signs of functioning or signs of having any interest in becoming a dictator or dictatorship unlike Biden/Harris and the Democratic party and its group of corporate allies who are currently operating above the law and positioned become right now. EYES DON'T LIE. PERSONAL EXPERIENCES DON'T LIE. You represent a fascist regime right now. A fascist regime that has the power to control speech and target and sensor political opposition and make its own rules and apply its own laws. So, my question to you is are you an American or a quasi socialist supporter of some sort who doesn't care if America remains American or not at this point in his life? We are seeing another calamity going on in Washington DC right now. What's a government full of shitty hell bent politicians worth? What's a government that doesn't respect the Constitution or obey the laws of the land worth these days? What's a bunch of insecure women who will do anything for power and a group of ball less males who go along with anything and say anything for power worth? So, what does a free country with Constitutional rights that believes in America and the American rule of law have to do as a country when the party that represents all of its interests doesn't have the power to stop them even though the two are more or less evenly matched. Does America have the right to revolt and disrupt and use violence like them? I hope your not foolish or naive enough to believe that it doesn't today? Do you know what I don't like about the silly notion of having a living Constitution. I understand that everything that lives eventually dies and a living Constitution would die like everything else that lives. Welcome to the 4T.
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01-13-2021, 03:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2021, 03:38 PM by Bob Butler 54.)
(01-13-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: EYES DON'T LIE. PERSONAL EXPERIENCES DON'T LIE.
Trump, however, does lie. If folks buy into one of his lies, such as for example there was massive voting fraud in the 2020 election, you end up rioting in the capitol. Building a view of how the world works on a lie? That is how a set of values will collapse.
Are you having trouble with your caps lock key?
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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While Xenakis has done heroic service in supporting various turning sites, in his own site he sees it as his function to censor ideas conflicting with his own. During Rags time as moderator, he avoided this here. There was no ideology based censorship of ideas. Is there agreement among the moderators that this will continue?
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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