The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(07-11-2020, 10:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, if the current liberal trend continues, the liberals won't have cops to use as political pawns for them to make examples of in front of their base or blame or pick on as they please like they still kind of have available to them right now. Yes. if only the lowly blacks and other lowly folks only had better parents, better teachers, better leaders, better role models, better communities and a better overall environment like most other Americans they'd have a better chance at succeeding. living a better life and a better chance at survival. So, what are you going to do about them as their numbers continue to grow and your barriers begin to disappear and the bulk of us who can read the writing on wall are gone and living with us.

There's no constituency for violent crime. The model being introduced is community policing in which the police get to know a smaller area and know it better. It was introduced in Dallas around 1980 in areas with recent immigrants from southeast Asia accustomed to distrusting the police (Vietnamese police were corrupt and brutal). The cops set themselves up as the people who could be trusted. The police started talking with such community leaders as clergy and businessmen, and through them got the message out: if you have a problem with crime, then go to the cops. The people know who the bad guys are and get to choose between exposing those bad guys or being under their thumb. Crime rates plummeted. 

Suppression of crime is not only compatible with civil liberties; it is necessary for civil liberties including property rights. You tell me the last time you heard anyone say that he stands for the spouse-beater, the drug trafficker, the child molester, the rapist, the armed robber, and the arsonist. We have courts of laws and prisons to serve as the means of separating ourselves from people whose presence poses an obvious danger. 

Yes -- I called the cops on a drunk driver.

Are you sure that there isn't a constituency associated with criminal activities and violent crime these days? So, how many people associated with the black lives matter movement are associated with street gangs and other criminal groups? How many liberal Democrats are associated with groups that support open borders and illegal immigration these days? Back in the day, I'd defeat liberals by helping liberals box themselves into positions/ senseless arguments they couldn't get of without hurting themselves or losing Democratic support.

[David Horn]

(07-12-2020, 06:02 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Are you sure that there isn't a constituency associated with criminal activities and violent crime these days? So, how many people associated with the black lives matter movement are associated with street gangs and other criminal groups?

BLM as a group is pretty clean on that. Even the outside elements trying to drag them into a fight are actively suppressed -- to the extent a protest group can actually do that. If you're mad at looters and rioters, be mad at them and save your anger for the guilty by action not simply be association.

Classic-Xer Wrote:How many liberal Democrats are associated with groups that support open borders and illegal immigration these days? Back in the day, I'd defeat liberals by helping liberals box themselves into positions/ senseless arguments  they couldn't get of without hurting themselves or losing Democratic support.

I can't think of any in this country, though the Canadians are all in for immigrants. They know that a declining birth rate (also a problem here, btw) will absolutely devastate future generations, and it won't do much for helping pay for the current retirees and universal healthcare. One highly liberal province is leading the way: Prince Edward Island. As Bob Butler can confirm, that's intended as a joke. PEI is a lot of things, but it's anything but liberal in your sense of the term.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-12-2020, 07:29 AM)David Horn Wrote:  PEI is a lot of things, but it's anything but liberal in your (Classic's) sense of the term.

I'm not sure anyone is liberal in Classic's sense of the term. He is into straw manning, creating false motivations for those he thinks he opposes to avoid having to think about the real problem or question his beliefs.

[David Horn]

(07-12-2020, 07:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-12-2020, 07:29 AM)David Horn Wrote:  PEI is a lot of things, but it's anything but liberal in your (Classic's) sense of the term.

I'm not sure anyone is liberal in Classic's sense of the term.  He is into straw manning, creating false motivations for those he thinks he opposes to avoid having to think about the real problem or question his beliefs.

Yesterday, Frank Bruni of the NY Times wrote a nice commentary about the Never Trumpers.  Reading between the lines a bit, they seemed to be taking responsibility for creating the modern GOP that Trump hijacked in 2015, and the Lincoln Project, among others, is their way to make retribution.  Almost as an aside, they noted that the modern GOP isn't going to revert to its former incarnation.  They're already pushing Tucker Carlson for President in 2024.  This is clearly where Classic gets his political views, and they have a lot more in common with the early Fascist movement than they do anything since.  That last was courtesy of George Will, a fellow traveler in Never Trump world.

Standby for an increasingly interesting 4T.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-12-2020, 10:48 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yesterday, Frank Bruni of the NY Times wrote a nice commentary about the Never Trumpers.  Reading between the lines a bit, they seemed to be taking responsibility for creating the modern GOP that Trump hijacked in 2015, and the Lincoln Project, among others, is their way to make retribution.  Almost as an aside, they noted that the modern GOP isn't going to revert to its former incarnation.  They're already pushing Tucker Carlson for President in 2024.  This is clearly where Classic gets his political views, and they have a lot more in common with the early Fascist movement than they do anything since.  That last was courtesy of George Will, a fellow traveler in Never Trump world.

Standby for an increasingly interesting 4T.

I've occasionally noted that the Tea Party had rejected establishment Republican elitism, but they seemed attracted to odd personalities such as Palin and Trump.  Carlson?  Is he odd enough to catch the attention of the remnants of Trump's base which used to be the Republican base?  Interesting.  I don't know of anyone else who might go for those voters, or expand it after Trump as taken them against COVUS 19 and Black Lives Matter.  He might be Trump's heir, but whether he can fight the times, champion the old values during a crisis, would be the question.

[pbrower2a]

(07-12-2020, 06:02 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 10:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, if the current liberal trend continues, the liberals won't have cops to use as political pawns for them to make examples of in front of their base or blame or pick on as they please like they still kind of have available to them right now. Yes. if only the lowly blacks and other lowly folks only had better parents, better teachers, better leaders, better role models, better communities and a better overall environment like most other Americans they'd have a better chance at succeeding. living a better life and a better chance at survival. So, what are you going to do about them as their numbers continue to grow and your barriers begin to disappear and the bulk of us who can read the writing on wall are gone and living with us.

There's no constituency for violent crime. The model being introduced is community policing in which the police get to know a smaller area and know it better. It was introduced in Dallas around 1980 in areas with recent immigrants from southeast Asia accustomed to distrusting the police (Vietnamese police were corrupt and brutal). The cops set themselves up as the people who could be trusted. The police started talking with such community leaders as clergy and businessmen, and through them got the message out: if you have a problem with crime, then go to the cops. The people know who the bad guys are and get to choose between exposing those bad guys or being under their thumb. Crime rates plummeted. 

Suppression of crime is not only compatible with civil liberties; it is necessary for civil liberties including property rights. You tell me the last time you heard anyone say that he stands for the spouse-beater, the drug trafficker, the child molester, the rapist, the armed robber, and the arsonist. We have courts of laws and prisons to serve as the means of separating ourselves from people whose presence poses an obvious danger. 

Yes -- I called the cops on a drunk driver.

Are you sure that there isn't a constituency associated with criminal activities and violent crime these days? So, how many people associated with the black lives matter movement are associated with street gangs and other criminal groups? How many liberal Democrats are associated with groups that support open borders and illegal immigration these days? Back in the day, I'd defeat liberals by helping liberals box themselves into positions/ senseless arguments  they couldn't get of without hurting themselves or losing Democratic support.

Name me one politician who says that he is OK with drug trafficking, child abuse, and overall violent crime. 

This is no longer "the day" in which anyone can box liberals into untenable positions except where right-wing pols are fully entrenched.

[Eric the Green]

(07-12-2020, 06:02 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 10:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, if the current liberal trend continues, the liberals won't have cops to use as political pawns for them to make examples of in front of their base or blame or pick on as they please like they still kind of have available to them right now. Yes. if only the lowly blacks and other lowly folks only had better parents, better teachers, better leaders, better role models, better communities and a better overall environment like most other Americans they'd have a better chance at succeeding. living a better life and a better chance at survival. So, what are you going to do about them as their numbers continue to grow and your barriers begin to disappear and the bulk of us who can read the writing on wall are gone and living with us.

There's no constituency for violent crime. The model being introduced is community policing in which the police get to know a smaller area and know it better. It was introduced in Dallas around 1980 in areas with recent immigrants from southeast Asia accustomed to distrusting the police (Vietnamese police were corrupt and brutal). The cops set themselves up as the people who could be trusted. The police started talking with such community leaders as clergy and businessmen, and through them got the message out: if you have a problem with crime, then go to the cops. The people know who the bad guys are and get to choose between exposing those bad guys or being under their thumb. Crime rates plummeted. 

Suppression of crime is not only compatible with civil liberties; it is necessary for civil liberties including property rights. You tell me the last time you heard anyone say that he stands for the spouse-beater, the drug trafficker, the child molester, the rapist, the armed robber, and the arsonist. We have courts of laws and prisons to serve as the means of separating ourselves from people whose presence poses an obvious danger. 

Yes -- I called the cops on a drunk driver.

Are you sure that there isn't a constituency associated with criminal activities and violent crime these days? So, how many people associated with the black lives matter movement are associated with street gangs and other criminal groups? How many liberal Democrats are associated with groups that support open borders and illegal immigration these days? Back in the day, I'd defeat liberals by helping liberals box themselves into positions/ senseless arguments  they couldn't get of without hurting themselves or losing Democratic support.

Why would you assume that black lives matter movement people are associated with street gangs and such? Why deny that there is a problem with police shooting unarmed black people, and that this makes some people upset and want to change it?

[Eric the Green]

(07-12-2020, 11:11 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-12-2020, 10:48 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yesterday, Frank Bruni of the NY Times wrote a nice commentary about the Never Trumpers.  Reading between the lines a bit, they seemed to be taking responsibility for creating the modern GOP that Trump hijacked in 2015, and the Lincoln Project, among others, is their way to make retribution.  Almost as an aside, they noted that the modern GOP isn't going to revert to its former incarnation.  They're already pushing Tucker Carlson for President in 2024.  This is clearly where Classic gets his political views, and they have a lot more in common with the early Fascist movement than they do anything since.  That last was courtesy of George Will, a fellow traveler in Never Trump world.

Standby for an increasingly interesting 4T.

I've occasionally noted that the Tea Party had rejected establishment Republican elitism, but they seemed attracted to odd personalities such as Palin and Trump.  Carlson?  Is he odd enough to catch the attention of the remnants of Trump's base which used to be the Republican base?  Interesting.  I don't know of anyone else who might go for those voters, or expand it after Trump as taken them against COVUS 19 and Black Lives Matter.  He might be Trump's heir, but whether he can fight the times, champion the old values during a crisis, would be the question.

Tucker Carlson? Kanye West? I am constantly amazed at who the right wing think are viable candidates for the presidency. It is mind boggling, but so is who is sitting in the Oval Office now. That is, when he's not out golfing or fooling around in Florida.

I guess I'll have to run Carlson's numbers. I admit I was amazed when I first ran Trump's in July 2015, and then knew I could not dismiss him as I had done before.

9-9: mediocre. He's no Donald Trump!

[Classic-Xer]

(07-12-2020, 02:44 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Name me one politician who says that he is OK with drug trafficking, child abuse, and overall violent crime. 

This is no longer "the day" in which anyone can box liberals into untenable positions except where right-wing pols are fully entrenched.

Name one who seems/appears to be opposed or interested in addressing and supporting solutions to any of them these days. I'm glad that I'm not you right now.

[pbrower2a]

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-10-2020, 10:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The game is already up. Our political system clicks its heels and follows a really good President; it basically ignores that President when he goes bad. As a basic reality the President has few real powers that he cannot get without support of Congress.

Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

[pbrower2a]

(07-12-2020, 05:06 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, if the current liberal trend continues, the liberals won't have cops to use as political pawns for them to make examples of in front of their base or blame or pick on as they please like they still kind of have available to them right now. Yes. if only the lowly blacks and other lowly folks only had better parents, better teachers, better leaders, better role models, better communities and a better overall environment like most other Americans they'd have a better chance at succeeding. living a better life and a better chance at survival. So, what are you going to do about them as their numbers continue to grow and your barriers begin to disappear and the bulk of us who can read the writing on wall are gone and living with us.

My sister taught first grade in a fairly affluent Boston suburb.  Included among her students were blacks with a success oriented culture that fit in with the white students well enough, but would still have to endure the prejudices of many.  Still, they presented no great challenges or difference from the other local students.

The black bourgeoisie... the Talented Tenth of old times. It can never assimilate its way into whiteness, but it can assimilate white people into its gene pool. That, folks, is the worst threat to white supremacists such as Tom Metzger and David DuKKKe. F--- those bigots!

There are people like that in all ethnic groups, and they recognize what they have in common.   

Quote:But she also had occasional students bussed out from Boston urban areas.  She explained it this way.  The people who had the greatest status and success visible to these young were star athletes, star performers, drug pushers, and mothers.  Thus, many pursued preparation to pursue these careers.

Now becoming a big time entertainer or athlete is a long shot.  One is apt to not be able to compete, or at best play a minor supporting role or get involved in a minor local act.  The other roles are less than desirable, but are still the only ‘success’ that is visible to a minority person growing up.  By bussing a few kids out to the affluent suburbs, they are at least exposed to the idea of a good education and work ethic could lead to a more ordinary and helpful role in the culture.  They choose kids who are already half way there, kids with the ethic to work hard and the intelligence to succeed.

Basically it's all or nothing for people who do not know many examples of the middle class. In the middle are the not-so-showy K-12 teachers, accountants, engineers, computer programmers, salesmen, nurses, medical technicians... I can't be sure that the pro athletes and the entertainers are such admirable models. Part of being a legitimate success is in having character, which used to be an objective in  K-12 education and the undergraduate education at the old-fashioned liberal-arts school. Character is the difference between deciding that low waves at a fast-food place are more likely to get one somewhere other than prison or the morgue than hustling drugs or women... or at a higher level of vocational success, deciding that embezzlement is just simply wrong.   

Quote:One problem with that is the presumption that all blacks have the ghetto mind set.  Some people are prejudiced, set in their ways, and making it difficult or impossible for minorities to succeed.  Many are small government fans, making it difficult to equalize the school or even home environments.  Too many, small government is a racist tool, a way to prevent white tax money from serving the black community.  As long as this mentality persists, that people “read the writing on the wall” they help to perpetuate the problem.

"Ghetto" behavior is becoming commonplace among white people (if not in that district!), although the cultural manifestations are different. So what.  There is distinct "loser" behavior that ruins one even if one gets some early modicum of success. Delinquent behavior, early promiscuity, neglect of studies, drug use (including under-age drinking: alcohol is a relatively tame drug to physically-mature adults, but a hard drug if teenagers are involved with it), and excessive involvement in mass low culture are not going to lead to success. To be sure, hard work is often good at best for many in survival in poverty. The last forty years have been a heyday of plutocracy in which most people seem to exist solely to make people already filthy-rich even more filthy-rich while getting a few table scraps and plenty of abuse. Such is an unstable reality, and it is one that this 4T either solves effectively or entrenches more harshly.         

Quote:And it is not that a well to do kid from the suburb never works at becoming a star athlete or entertainer.  That temptation is there for all kids.  It is just that the parents and the culture better ready the kid for a soft landing should there be failure in the low possibility of success in the dream.

The kid from the suburb (including a kid from the black bourgeoisie) might dream of being a violinist in the Boston Symphony... or being a research scientist. Figure that the Boston Symphony has more players than the Red Sox, Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins have together... and that the career is longer. A hint: the cellist will never tackle you by grabbing your face-mask! Or perhaps he will be a chip off the old block and follow Daddy as a green-grocer or a traveling salesman.  That is modest success, but it is success. 

Having suitable role models now looks essential to success.  

Quote:But a key element is the racist presumption that all minority kids are the same and that resources should be hoarded to the dominant culture. To some degree you can work for success in spite of the attempts to monopolize culture and deny access.  It is impossible to achieve success if there is a large subculture attempting to isolate and deny resources.

Racism is intellectual laziness. Such may explain why successful blacks are heavily Democratic: liberals are more likely to size them up and see more than skin tone. I've known bigots, and I often see other problems than bigotry, such as poor control of impulses. The bigots who heavily use the N-word seem to use the F-word a lot.

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN is advocating that New York should prosecute Stone.  I sympathize, but it might have to be for a crime he was not previously been convicted and commuted.  It might get thrown out as double jeopardy.

[David Horn]

(07-13-2020, 04:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: CNN is advocating that New York should prosecute Stone.  I sympathize, but it might have to be for a crime he was not previously been convicted and commuted.  It might get thrown out as double jeopardy.

Federal and state crimes often overlap but don't really replicate one another, so a murder may also be a civil rights violation.  I'm not sure how that concept may apply here, but I'm not a seasoned prosecutor either.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-12-2020, 09:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-10-2020, 10:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The game is already up. Our political system clicks its heels and follows a really good President; it basically ignores that President when he goes bad. As a basic reality the President has few real powers that he cannot get without support of Congress.

Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

Where do you think we should be this early in the 4T? What did America do as most of old Europe collapsed went haywire? Did America jump on the bandwagon and side early or watch as Europe unraveled and waited to see the victor? This may be hard to understand or grasp but Democratic controlled America is in damn near the same position as Europe right now and America is watching and waiting to see the victor as its shoring up itself and preparing for an ugly 4T. Does America have the right to become Imperialist during times of war with imperialist nations or imperialist forces within? Yes we do. Does America have the right to counter violence with violence? Yes we do. Does America have the right to punish business's that ignore American law and impose their own law? Yes we do. Does America have the right to trash and disable Amazon vans and make it impossible for Amazon to do business outside blue areas like the liberals groups were free to do with our police vehicles and police building and the stores and shops of working people and all our statues and monuments. So, how many racist fucks that aren't white do you have on your side these days that have taken the place of the whites that America forced your race driven party to let go during the 60's? So, where are we at now. Are you clinging to 3T or are you ready for 4t like the other side? I'm willing to hand the Democratic party to the cancel culture on a silver plate and let them do as they please with them for now.

[Classic-Xer]

(07-12-2020, 04:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Tucker Carlson? Kanye West? I am constantly amazed at who the right wing think are viable candidates for the presidency. It is mind boggling, but so is who is sitting in the Oval Office now. That is, when he's not out golfing or fooling around in Florida.

I guess I'll have to run Carlson's numbers. I admit I was amazed when I first ran Trump's in July 2015, and then knew I could not dismiss him as I had done before.

9-9: mediocre. He's no Donald Trump!

I wouldn't buy into the soft Republican hype. It's pretty clear to me that half hearted Tucker Carlson isn't cut out to be a wartime President. It may only be a cold civil war at the moment but it's still a war and wars require strong leaders with conviction. The next one that we elect is going to need to be a strong one with resolve.

[Eric the Green]

(07-13-2020, 07:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-12-2020, 09:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-10-2020, 10:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The game is already up. Our political system clicks its heels and follows a really good President; it basically ignores that President when he goes bad. As a basic reality the President has few real powers that he cannot get without support of Congress.

Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

Where do you think we should be this early in the 4T? What did America do as most of old Europe collapsed went haywire? Did America jump on the bandwagon and side early or watch as Europe unraveled and waited to see the victor? This may be hard to understand or grasp but Democratic controlled America is in damn near the same position as Europe right now and America is watching and waiting to see the victor as its shoring up itself and preparing for an ugly 4T. Does America have the right to become Imperialist during times of war with imperialist nations or imperialist forces within? Yes we do. Does America have the right to counter violence with violence? Yes we do. Does America have the right to punish business's that ignore American law and impose their own law? Yes we do. Does America have the right to trash and disable Amazon vans and make it impossible for Amazon to do business outside blue areas like the liberals groups were free to do with our police vehicles and police building and the stores and shops of working people and all our statues and monuments. So, how many racist fucks that aren't white do you have on your side these days that have taken the place of the whites that America forced your race driven party to let go during the 60's? So, where are we at now. Are you clinging to 3T or are you ready for 4t like the other side?  I'm willing to hand the Democratic party to the cancel culture on a silver plate and let them do as they please with them for now.

I don't know if I posted this rant of mine here, but it's as good as any retort to Classic's one here.

I wrote on FB: "Looking at the world situation we see dictators and ignorant neo liberals fomenting a rise of fascism and anti democracy around the world. Bolsonaro, Morrison, Johnson, Erdogan, Putin, Kim Jung Un, Xi Jinping, Assad, Sisi, bin Salman, Duda, Orban, Modi, Duterte, Maduro, tons of bad outrageous leaders. But, and this is the important point, unlike in the 30s, the USA is not and would not be a leader for freedom and democracy in this dark age. Because it too is led by an ignorant, stupid tyrant. Unless we get rid of him, the world will careen further toward tyranny and chaos and environmental disaster as well as pandemics."

The electoral disaster in Poland and an appearance by Bob Geldoff on the German news channel prompted me to write further: "Bob Geldoff spoke out today remembering the Live Aid world concert that raised donations to help the African famine. One the the most legendary concerts ever, it got the attention of world leaders. Geldoff becried the fact that this could not happen today. Not sparing insults, he said Putin, Trump and Johnson and leaders like them could never be approached for any action to help humanity.

We are adrift, and the most irritating thing is that most of the atrocious tyrants I mentioned above were voted in by the people, often by narrow margins. The people are voting to put themselves into tyranny! I say, the EU should EXPEL AND THROW OUT Poland and Hungary! We should withdraw our troops, and expel them from NATO! These people are voting for far right anti-semitic, and-German, anti-Arab racists, homophobes and nationalists opposed to human rights. Just today, Duda was re-elected by 51-48% over a liberal committed to restoring them. What an outrage. And we did the same thing in the USA. You mean to tell me that those still permitted to vote in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania didn't know about the electoral college? We did it to ourselves! So, did Poland, Hungary, Turkey, India, Egypt, Brazil, Australia, the UK, The Phillipines and countless others. Neo-liberals and racists! I hope this is the darkness before the dawn as Saturn, Jupiter and Pluto move from Capricorn into Aquarius and Neptune reaches the late degrees of Pisces, a place of resurrection, the degrees Saturn was in in the mid-60s and when the Bastille fell."

[Classic-Xer]

(07-13-2020, 08:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 07:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-12-2020, 09:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-10-2020, 10:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The game is already up. Our political system clicks its heels and follows a really good President; it basically ignores that President when he goes bad. As a basic reality the President has few real powers that he cannot get without support of Congress.

Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

Where do you think we should be this early in the 4T? What did America do as most of old Europe collapsed went haywire? Did America jump on the bandwagon and side early or watch as Europe unraveled and waited to see the victor? This may be hard to understand or grasp but Democratic controlled America is in damn near the same position as Europe right now and America is watching and waiting to see the victor as its shoring up itself and preparing for an ugly 4T. Does America have the right to become Imperialist during times of war with imperialist nations or imperialist forces within? Yes we do. Does America have the right to counter violence with violence? Yes we do. Does America have the right to punish business's that ignore American law and impose their own law? Yes we do. Does America have the right to trash and disable Amazon vans and make it impossible for Amazon to do business outside blue areas like the liberals groups were free to do with our police vehicles and police building and the stores and shops of working people and all our statues and monuments. So, how many racist fucks that aren't white do you have on your side these days that have taken the place of the whites that America forced your race driven party to let go during the 60's? So, where are we at now. Are you clinging to 3T or are you ready for 4t like the other side?  I'm willing to hand the Democratic party to the cancel culture on a silver plate and let them do as they please with them for now.

I don't know if I posted this rant of mine here, but it's as good as any retort to Classic's one here.

I wrote on FB: "Looking at the world situation we see dictators and ignorant neo liberals fomenting a rise of fascism and anti democracy around the world. Bolsonaro, Morrison, Johnson, Erdogan, Putin, Kim Jung Un, Xi Jinping, Assad, Sisi, bin Salman, Duda, Orban, Modi, Duterte, Maduro, tons of bad outrageous leaders. But, and this is the important point, unlike in the 30s, the USA is not and would not be a leader for freedom and democracy in this dark age. Because it too is led by an ignorant, stupid tyrant. Unless we get rid of him, the world will careen further toward tyranny and chaos and environmental disaster as well as pandemics."

The electoral disaster in Poland and an appearance by Bob Geldoff on the German news channel prompted me to write further: "Bob Geldoff spoke out today remembering the Live Aid world concert that raised donations to help the African famine. One the the most legendary concerts ever, it got the attention of world leaders. Geldoff becried the fact that this could not happen today. Not sparing insults, he said Putin, Trump and Johnson and leaders like them could never be approached for any action to help humanity.

We are adrift, and the most irritating thing is that most of the atrocious tyrants I mentioned above were voted in by the people, often by narrow margins. The people are voting to put themselves into tyranny! I say, the EU should EXPEL AND THROW OUT Poland and Hungary! We should withdraw our troops, and expel them from NATO! These people are voting for far right anti-semitic, and-German, anti-Arab racists, homophobes and nationalists opposed to human rights. Just today, Duda was re-elected by 51-48% over a liberal committed to restoring them. What an outrage. And we did the same thing in the USA. You mean to tell me that those still permitted to vote in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania didn't know about the electoral college? We did it to ourselves! So, did Poland, Hungary, Turkey, India, Egypt, Brazil, Australia, the UK, The Phillipines and countless others. Neo-liberals and racists! I hope this is the darkness before the dawn as Saturn, Jupiter and Pluto move from Capricorn into Aquarius and Neptune reaches the late degrees of Pisces, a place of resurrection, the degrees Saturn was in in the mid-60s and when the Bastille fell."

I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority. So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

I dunno, the French Revolution seemed pretty rough and uncivilized compared to the American Revolution. You'd be better off by leaving the USA than by starting a war with 60 some million citizens of the USA. We won't be fighting over slavery this time because that issue has already resolved. We'll be fighting to keep America and you're going to loose big time. Hopefully the political defeat will be enough to teach but I doubt it at this point. You better be careful about the way that you treat American groups these days. We have everything that your liberal groups have available to them today. The way I see it, the Grey Badger was your last hope for peace or last heroic advocate for peace and she gave up on you guys and left along time ago. So, here we are together as we're entering the 4T. You don't realize this but your dealing with forces of nature and the country is dividing along the lines associated with nature and mankind.

[Eric the Green]

(07-14-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 08:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 07:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-12-2020, 09:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

Where do you think we should be this early in the 4T? What did America do as most of old Europe collapsed went haywire? Did America jump on the bandwagon and side early or watch as Europe unraveled and waited to see the victor? This may be hard to understand or grasp but Democratic controlled America is in damn near the same position as Europe right now and America is watching and waiting to see the victor as its shoring up itself and preparing for an ugly 4T. Does America have the right to become Imperialist during times of war with imperialist nations or imperialist forces within? Yes we do. Does America have the right to counter violence with violence? Yes we do. Does America have the right to punish business's that ignore American law and impose their own law? Yes we do. Does America have the right to trash and disable Amazon vans and make it impossible for Amazon to do business outside blue areas like the liberals groups were free to do with our police vehicles and police building and the stores and shops of working people and all our statues and monuments. So, how many racist fucks that aren't white do you have on your side these days that have taken the place of the whites that America forced your race driven party to let go during the 60's? So, where are we at now. Are you clinging to 3T or are you ready for 4t like the other side?  I'm willing to hand the Democratic party to the cancel culture on a silver plate and let them do as they please with them for now.

I don't know if I posted this rant of mine here, but it's as good as any retort to Classic's one here.

I wrote on FB: "Looking at the world situation we see dictators and ignorant neo liberals fomenting a rise of fascism and anti democracy around the world. Bolsonaro, Morrison, Johnson, Erdogan, Putin, Kim Jung Un, Xi Jinping, Assad, Sisi, bin Salman, Duda, Orban, Modi, Duterte, Maduro, tons of bad outrageous leaders. But, and this is the important point, unlike in the 30s, the USA is not and would not be a leader for freedom and democracy in this dark age. Because it too is led by an ignorant, stupid tyrant. Unless we get rid of him, the world will careen further toward tyranny and chaos and environmental disaster as well as pandemics."

The electoral disaster in Poland and an appearance by Bob Geldoff on the German news channel prompted me to write further: "Bob Geldoff spoke out today remembering the Live Aid world concert that raised donations to help the African famine. One the the most legendary concerts ever, it got the attention of world leaders. Geldoff becried the fact that this could not happen today. Not sparing insults, he said Putin, Trump and Johnson and leaders like them could never be approached for any action to help humanity.

We are adrift, and the most irritating thing is that most of the atrocious tyrants I mentioned above were voted in by the people, often by narrow margins. The people are voting to put themselves into tyranny! I say, the EU should EXPEL AND THROW OUT Poland and Hungary! We should withdraw our troops, and expel them from NATO! These people are voting for far right anti-semitic, and-German, anti-Arab racists, homophobes and nationalists opposed to human rights. Just today, Duda was re-elected by 51-48% over a liberal committed to restoring them. What an outrage. And we did the same thing in the USA. You mean to tell me that those still permitted to vote in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania didn't know about the electoral college? We did it to ourselves! So, did Poland, Hungary, Turkey, India, Egypt, Brazil, Australia, the UK, The Phillipines and countless others. Neo-liberals and racists! I hope this is the darkness before the dawn as Saturn, Jupiter and Pluto move from Capricorn into Aquarius and Neptune reaches the late degrees of Pisces, a place of resurrection, the degrees Saturn was in in the mid-60s and when the Bastille fell."

I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority.  So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

I dunno, the French Revolution seemed pretty rough and uncivilized compared to the American Revolution. You'd be better off by leaving the USA than by starting a war with 60 some million citizens of the USA. We won't be fighting over slavery this time because that issue has already resolved. We'll be fighting to keep America and you're going to loose big time. Hopefully the political defeat will be enough to teach but I doubt it at this point. You better be careful about the way that you treat American groups these days. We have everything that your liberal groups have available to them today. The way I see it, the Grey Badger was your last hope for peace or last heroic advocate for peace and she gave up on you guys and left along time ago. So, here we are together as we're entering the 4T. You don't realize this but your dealing with forces of nature and the country is dividing along the lines associated with nature and mankind.

I won't be careful. I look forward to the fight against your side, which is trying to resurrect the confederacy and further impose your slavery upon us, which your side has been doing successfully ever since your unqualified actor/corporate synchophant was imposed upon us 40 years ago.

[David Horn]

(07-13-2020, 07:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I wouldn't buy into the soft Republican  hype. It's pretty clear to me that half hearted Tucker Carlson isn't cut out to be a wartime President. It may only be a cold civil war at the moment but it's still a war and wars require strong leaders with conviction. The next one that we elect is  going to need to be a strong one with resolve.

Good luck finding your perfect Fascist. There are plenty skinhead types out there. Maybe one of them.

[David Horn]

(07-14-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority.  So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

Yes, you really do hate democracy and pray for an iron-gloved savior. Here's a hint: Trump is a wimp of the worst kind and fully incapable of being the leader you seem to want so desperately.