11-06-2016, 08:52 PM
(11-06-2016, 01:59 PM)taramarie Wrote:(11-06-2016, 08:58 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:"Face it -- we liberals in "Blue Country" are more rational and empathetic than the leaders that Red Country has. We want Red Country to have good jobs and good educational opportunities. We want fair pay for fair wages. We want economic security for all."(11-06-2016, 02:16 AM)taramarie Wrote:(11-06-2016, 01:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(11-06-2016, 12:38 AM)taramarie Wrote: From what I have observed this is true. Both seeking to change the system and ultimately affect the people economically and culturally, but different agenda. Unless someone tells me otherwise that is what it looks like to me from what I have listened to.
As I said same shoe different foot it will not fit every time. So what to do to be inclusive of everyone? Respect the differences perhaps and if that cannot be done segregation may have to become a thing to protect certain beliefs not affected by others that interfere with others in order for some peace of mind. It does bother me though that they will end up in a bubble with no real understanding of others different from them however. That is merely a quick fix but does not address the issue of understanding others but also not infringing on rights and ultimately pissing people off.
I see this as going way back. In the Agricultural Age, the Bible, pope and king could determine how everyone ought to live, and use all sorts of coercion to force it. The Enlightenment proposed there are certain unalienable rights, and that government should not be able to coerce in violation of these right. Thus, people should be able to establish their own life styles.
I view the series of S&H crises as struggles to move western civilization away from the Agricultural Age pattern towards the new Enlightenment pattern. The shift from rigid authoritarian government to rights, diversity and limits on the power of government is part of this. As such, the current red / Republican faction in the US can be viewed as fighting a rear guard action, attempting to preserve the remnants of elite privilege and authority. On the other hand, the blue / Democratic faction is attempting to extend rights, diversity, equality and democracy.
The above pattern should be painted with a very broad brush. It is a trend that holds over the centuries, but doesn't fit perfectly into every issue in every crisis.
Understanding other cultures is hard and will remain hard. Allowing others who are different to be different in peace, not stepping on them so long as they don't step on you, shouldn't be hard. Some, however, believe stepping on inferior folk is their right.
As such, I believe Galen's simplistic stereotype is inadequate. Blue boomers and blue folk from other generations as well are much more accepting of diversity, are much less apt to force perceived inferiors to abide by their culture. Again, the Clinton and Trump campaigns illustrate this reasonably well.
I like the blue message but some reds feel it in some ways steps onto their rights. So what is to be done if they feel that way so that they can feel like they can preserve what they enjoy too? What is the solution? Some will not change and if I put myself in their place those changes would sacrifice who I am. Feeling like I am being torn down to the core. It would not make me want to change. In fact I would cling to it even more. Forcing change will not do the trick. But I think the real liberal message should be to accept people as they are rather than changing them to be what you want them to be. The problem though is how this is put into law and how it can infringe on people's rights. Which is why I suggested segregation. But it does create a bubble. Not that people already do not live in one. I feel change is best when it is an open option. Not forced. Education also it a good start too. I tell you guys it is maddening. I am a foreigner but want to try to fix this division. I am an Apollonian by heart. I want law and order and with it peace. Division drives me wild when I cannot fix it. You have no idea how many times I see another form of division over there and I want to fix it, but can't. It seems all hopeless over there.I don't know what to do...
I suspect that the Red view of the world is to endorse severe economic inequality (cheap labor under harsh management), sex solely for procreation, exaggerated nationalism, a culture that exults the Mountain and (white) Deep South over all other regional and 'exotic' alternatives, a brutal system of both law enforcement and 'corrections', and religious faith (ideally Protestant fundamentalism) as a solution for all questions instead of rational inquiry. That Red America has been a hotbed of denial of the 'American' quality of the current President continues even as such approaches the end of any possible relevance. That it could fall for a crony capitalist with personal behavior best described as a travesty of Christian (or for that matter, Jewish, Islamic, Baha'i, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian, or Shinto) family values. It is telling that Donald Trump is doing extremely badly for a Republican in Utah; the Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), take their family values seriously... and people in Mormon country are wise to heed them even if they do not have to become Mormons.
It would be delightful to see anyone other than Donald Trump win Utah while Republican sweep statewide offices in the Beehive State. I have found little to laugh about in this Presidential election. Regrettably I can imagine some outside the USA laughing at Donald Trump as if he were "Adenoid Hynkel" in Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator -- I will be able to see humor worthy of laughter in American politics only if Donald Trump loses. I hope to get my sense of humor back on Wednesday.
America is becoming so culturally polarized that many Americans would feel more at home in some other part of the English-speaking world (Canada? Ireland? the UK? New Zealand? Australia?) then in certain parts of their own country.
The only good that I can see about a Trump Presidency is that American youth will start taking civics and foreign languages seriously.
Red America is going to learn its lesson only if its chosen politicians win and bring the full harshness of right-wing politics upon them. That means an internal passport as in the Soviet Union or a passbook as in Apartheid-era South Africa (what wonderful models!) to be presented at any time. You would have to keep it in a watertight container attached to yourself even more rigidly than the swimsuit, for being without such a tool of control would make one more naked before the law than nudity itself before shocked eyes. That means a huge reduction in income due to wage cuts and further degradation of buying power due to taxes that get shoved onto the non-rich as the rich are exempted from them in the name of prosperity. That means that ideology determines whether one gets educational opportunities or is denied them.... or that remaining a teacher, preacher, or cop depends upon following the Party Line. In return, white privilege would be back as in the Jim Crow South. That means wars for profits in which the "Basket of Deplorables" that Hillary Clinton calls them find their kids coming back to America in body bags having been cannon fodder in wars for profit.
Red America may need to hit bottom in an economic meltdown or overt tyranny before it realizes what harm its politics and culture do to itself. Yes, that is an analogy to drugs and alcohol... and the druggie must be busted for crimes to support a habit or the alcoholic must find that heavy boozing denies anything precious other than the alcoholic high to the heavy drinker.
Face it -- we liberals in "Blue Country" are more rational and empathetic than the leaders that Red Country has. We want Red Country to have good jobs and good educational opportunities. We want fair pay for fair wages. We want economic security for all.
Rational when it comes to the right of others...to a certain degree. I think the frustration that they cannot change people to be more tolerant has radicalized some and now whenever people are not entirely for their message they start to tear them down, slander them and ultimately turn them away. You cannot force people to support a message if people on your side are acting that way however true it may be for some. It is hurting an otherwise lovely message and policies. As such because people are different and the cause is self destructing some do want to live their own life the way they want it. I may not agree with them but as long as they are not hurting others go for it. But this may mean they live separately from those they do not agree with (if laws head in one direction or another). America would not have to do this if it were one nation, not divided, did not have propaganda sensationalist media separating further, legal bribes, politicians doing the same thing as the media and did not involve idealism that is severely divided between the two main parties which is influenced by religion. This makes people emotionally involved with their side. I say good luck to you all for you are going to need it to sort out all of the corruption that has lead to this division.
But they are hurting others, 10s of millions of others, and they will continue to do so. The fact that the majority of them are also hurting themselves doesn't make it okay.
Anyone still wasting their time and energy trying to convince them or compromise with them is living in an alternative universe. They cannot be helped until they are completely and unequivocally defeated. It's no different than 1860.