05-23-2016, 11:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-23-2016, 11:08 PM by Eric the Green.)
(05-23-2016, 03:22 PM)radind Wrote:(05-23-2016, 09:05 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: I think the problem here is that in calling all secular people "the secular camp" you are ultimately setting yourself up for failure. The simple fact is that there isn't this monolithic structure called "the secular camp". In order to be secular one merely needs to desire everyone to have religious freedom--which is a cultural libertarian perspective anyway.
In order to achieve that religious freedom the state MUST be secular, if the state is not, let us say the First Amendment was tossed out today and Congress made Catholicism the state religion that would go against the freedoms of all Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Orthodox Christians, Jews of all stripes, Muslims of all stripes and any other person of religions not Catholicism or completely lacking a religion (such as myself).
Conversely let us say that the First Amendment was tossed out today and Congress prohibited all religions...That impinges on the liberty of everyone who chooses to have a religion.
No one who is secular wants to abolish first amendment except the Regressive Left. They also have problems with people saying whatever they want too. Are they secular? I'd argue no. They wish to impose their ideology on everyone else which is against the core tenant of being secular--namely that in order for everyone to have freedom of religious consciousness the state cannot have a role in religious consciousness.
They are in fact the opposite of Cultural Libertarianism (it is also called Classical Liberalism--what passes for liberalism these days is really democratic socialism [an oxymoron I know] or some bastardized version of Marxism). As it is that Classical Liberalism which is the very foundation of the Republic, a Republic they seek to destroy.
They have converted the Democratic Party into a party of authoritarianism and must therefore be destroyed for the good of the Republic. As such the milquetoast, quasi-conservatism of the GOP Establishment had to be broken and Trump has managed that. Now it is time to take that cultural war to the voting booth because I am starting to believe that once he is elected they will try to destroy the country, much like the South tried to destroy the country following Lincoln's election.
I don't see any option since the 'secular group' is now the majority( most Democrats plus some Republicans), and acting no differently from another religion.
We still need separation of church and state, but the state has been taken over by a 'religion'. The 'secular group' can and will deny this, but the operational effect is the same.
If the majority still favored true religious freedom, I would be less concerned. In my opinion , there are ~ 10% with a Biblical worldview. I don't think that all of the remaining 90% are in the 'secular camp', but I do think that there is a working majority in the 'secular camp'.
More like 40% in the Biblical worldview camp; mostly evangelicals but also active Catholics. Others include more liberal protestant Christians or inactive Christians. Secularists as you define it is more like the 10% you claim for Biblical believers; maybe less. But the Enlightenment and Darwinian types of "secularists" have influence beyond their numbers, because the modern default scientific worldview among educated people is basically their "creation." So they do influence the views of the 60% that are not the extreme Bible believers.
Some opinion polls today also show high levels of support for what I would call more new age or middle-ground views, such as a combination of evolution and creation or something in between; etc.
I confess it continues to baffle me that you consider today's "secularists" to be "against religious liberty." Permission for abortion disagrees with the views of many strict Christians, but that is not stifling religious liberty. Prohibitions on discrimination based on religion (such as refusing to serve gay people) is also not "against religious liberty," despite the slogans of deceivers like Ted Cruz.