Why is Consensus Important for People with Views not Winning?

[JasonBlack]

(02-13-2022, 10:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: That would be a new style of consensus. It would be nice, and I once believed it could happen. I am disillusioned with such an idea now. Humans have confirmed in recent decades that they can't function without top-down mandates, especially in the economics sphere more than the moralistic sphere (but doubtful there as well). As David alluded to, the economics rules were relaxed about 40 years ago, and since then Reaganomics has only resulted in an unequal society with less opportunity and much more damage to the environment, no social progress, diminished education and an ignorant populace easily deceived by a rich celebrity bully. No, we certainly have no consensus that can be formed now from leaner institutions.

I don't know when community was stronger because institutions were a little more lean. The robber baron era was not a community, and neither were slave plantations, nor the colonies under a king, nor a new republic in which only rich white men could participate.

Both of those sound pretty top down to me, and one would be hard pressed to claim that they worked given the metrics we are discussing. I'd say things improved a lot when we no longer had a king ruling us and when we let brown people actually make their own decisions. The last part I disagree with. We had a very strong sense of community during/after the revolution and after WII that didn't require any top-down mandate. Sure, we can pick away at "but only land owning white people can vote", but let's not forget that it was another 30 years (The United Kingdom in 1807) became the first country ever in the history of the world to ban slavery. 

The only one I see your point on is the robber baron era, but no one is advocating we return to anarchy. With that said, just as anarchy is inevitable, so too is human's tendency to seek out power. Capitalism (something that comes in many forms with many degrees of possible regulation mind you) is the only system in the world in which individuals have the opportunity to gain power in ways that benefit the rest of society with jobs, innovation and better pricing. 

At the end of the day though, most of this post isn't even about money. What we need to return to is privacy, sans the influence of government or corporate surveillance. This is an issue I can shake hands with left wingers and the EU on: we need data protection and privacy laws enshrined in a constitutional amendment, period. I can be happy without making a million dollars a year. I cannot be happy in a state of extreme censorship and surveillance. 


Really though, compare even the worst periods in our 400 year history with the likes of African military dictatorships, Maoist China, Ottoman Turkey, Nazi Germany or absolutist Russia. Do you think they had any real "sense of community" under those conditions? Sure, things could use some improvement at the moment, but if you take a step back to compare the US to historical data related to the kinds of policies you're alluding to, the dilapidated infrastructure of the US.  We're 10x better off than any totalitarian government system left or right, religious or secular. Speaking for myself, had I lived under any of those regimes, I would be a much more violent person than the man you are talking to today. The value I place on human life is pretty high, but the value I place on taking control over my own life and not being dragged down with the misery of the masses....that's worth killing for.