Let's make fun of Trump, bash him, etc. while we can!

[Eric the Green]

(08-19-2016, 02:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ... there have been successful big government programs, and unsuccessful ones.  There have been times when the people have needed a lot of help, and times they do OK with less help.  There have been times and places where the government can become ingrown and corrupt, and times when they are less so.  Depending on what times and places one focuses on in US history, one can learn very different ideas on how America works, what is wrong with it, what is right, and what could be better.

Mikebert brought up a point a while back that certain values can shift easier than others.  People get different ideas on how the world works, different focuses on what goals ought to be pushed for to improve life.  He has a point that beliefs that can be blatantly disproven by example can be superseded rather quickly.  I'd also think values that are religious or emotional might have more staying power than objective ideas that can more clearly be shown to be false.

But you can't doubt that many of the key divides in the current Red / Blue divide are extremely stubborn.  I can find merit and historical cause for both sets of ideas, perhaps because my own values hold that world views that succeed became strong because they worked or seemed to have worked in their time.  I lived through the 60s and remember the notion that big problems ought to be confronted and solved, and this often involved throwing lots of money at problems.  I also saw the National Malaise, with the string of failed US policies and projects that disillusioned many about the effectiveness of the government.

There are two sets of lessons learned.  I think we would be better off if everyone tried to learn both sets of lessons.

But that's sure not what is happening.  Partisans like you and Eric will cling to the lessons and policies of one time and with intense prejudice find ways to reject the lessons and policies of other times.  This is going to the point of demonization, where anyone who holds the other set of values must be stupid, deluded, brainwashed, evil or a clone of Hitler.  Folks from either extreme aren't considering where the other side might be coming from.  They would rather assume that the other side is totally flying mammal excrement out of their minds.

I don't see either side as being more or less evil, deluded, stupid or etc...  I do see a pendulum that ought to be swinging with the cycles.  At the moment we have a large division of wealth and entrepreneurs are having no difficulty raising funds.  There is no current need for supply side stimulus, to take from the poor to give to the rich.  There is a real lack of jobs paying living wages.  This makes it a good time for demand side stimulus.  Money has to be inserted onto Main Street, where it will allow folk to buy and sell stuff, to get goods and services moving freely again.  If we can improve infrastructure, education and health care in the process, it's worth doing.

It's not a matter of one ideology or the other always being better.  It is a matter of honestly looking at what the nation needs and adjusting policy to match the current needs, not what the needs were when last a given party sized power.  Right now, Main Street has a lot more genuine needs than the Robber Barons.  The Robber Barons are riding as high as they ever have.

Now, I might wish Mikebert could be proven right.  It would be nice if people could just look at the world, see policies that didn't work, that aren't working, and just let go of old ideas that might no longer be effective.  This doesn't seem to be happening, though.  (Classic Xer) and Eric are representative in being able to see only one side of the picture.  Both of you have lots of company, clinging to the extremes.  It seems that modern society is complex enough that many people cannot see things well enough to shift positions.

I don't think it ought to be all that difficult to open one's eyes, to see all of America and its history rather than focusing on selective bits that reinforce what one wants to believe.  Still, the partisan divide continues.

If you see all of history, you can see that there's only been one other time besides our own when the supposed "other party" besides the more-progressive one was in-fact too stubborn, deluded, brainwashed, almost Hitler like. That was the 1850s and 1860s. We are in that time again.

"There have been times when the people have needed a lot of help, and times they do OK with less help.  There have been times and places where the government can become ingrown and corrupt, and times when they are less so." While I might agree with this, that does not mean that the Reagan-Bush-Tea Party era qualifies as a time when people did OK with less help, or when the government had been ingrown and corrupt before they came along. No, people needed MORE help from government in Reagan's time, and MORE corruption occurred as a result of his election. Corruption in government is a progressives' issue anyway, not a conservative issue. Conservatives don't cure it; progressives cure it. It's not about how big government is, it's about what it does.

As a Goldwater Republican said on a PBS doc, Goldwater in 1964 would not have approved of the Tea Party's ideas today. Just because pendulums swing and cycles occur, does not mean that any ol swing is the right ol thing. It would not do either if the USA swung in a too-radical direction toward communism, isolationism, or violent leftist activities. Or a Green Party candidate who adopts and spreads Republican lies. We don't need to agree with swings that swing too far. That's what has happened in the Reagan-Bush-Tea Party era. The partisan divide will continue until this right-wing swing is defeated. 

As mikebert said, values don't come unlocked in 4Ts; one set of locked values defeats the other. Only then will you see more consensus.