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Old T4T forum is no more.
#1
Gone
The requested resource
/forum/
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#2
(05-16-2016, 12:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Gone
The requested resource
/forum/
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.

Yep was rather sad to see that message first thing in the morning (NZ time). Least we have this place now and will make it home.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#3
(05-18-2016, 01:36 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Sort of a knock on Howe ...

It was disappointing to see an historian devalue such a long lived forum. Even if parked somewhere read-only, so as to require nearly zero maintenance, it would have been of great value. Instead, all the knowledge that was in the posts and links is gone forever, other than the minuscule amount that was scraped prior to the shut down. I would never have done what he did. I would have at least archived or parked it somewhere.

It was a terrible Knowledge Management practice.

Angry

Very sad . This was done on short notice with no discussion of any potential options.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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#4
(05-18-2016, 03:28 PM)radind Wrote:
(05-18-2016, 01:36 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Sort of a knock on Howe ...

It was disappointing to see an historian devalue such a long lived forum. Even if parked somewhere read-only, so as to require nearly zero maintenance, it would have been of great value. Instead, all the knowledge that was in the posts and links is gone forever, other than the minuscule amount that was scraped prior to the shut down. I would never have done what he did. I would have at least archived or parked it somewhere.

It was a terrible Knowledge Management practice.

Angry

Very sad . This was done on short notice with no discussion of any potential options.
Or at least I didn't hear that Mr. Howe read or considered any of what was discussed. But I appreciate what Dan and Xenakis have done.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#5
(05-16-2016, 12:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Gone
The requested resource
/forum/
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.

My computer says: "Sorry, the Fourth Turning Forums are undergoing maintenance.

We are working to fix several issues as quickly as possible and expect to be online again early next week.

Thank you for your understanding."

A bit ambiguous there!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#6
(05-16-2016, 12:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Gone
The requested resource
/forum/
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.

oh my gosh, i am so happy i found you guys again.  despite the fact that i rarely post anymore, a always check in on the forum to see what your take is on events.  it surprised me how upset i was that the forum disappeared.  i could not believe we had no chance to say goodbye.  hop all the oldie  goldy are back.  thanks to whoever pulled this site together Heart Smile
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#7
I also was very disturbed to see the site gone. I post sporadically but like to read the member's viewpoints of current events with a generational perspective.
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#8
I have often wondered if one of the reason that the old forum was shut down was because so many people had begun to use it for personal attack.
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#9
(07-13-2016, 08:34 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: I have often wondered if one of the reason that the old forum was shut down was because so many people had begun to use it for personal attack.

That often happens.

There was one creep, a vile antisemite (Holocaust denier) who accused me at a tough point in my life of being a homosexual child molester. Because I had no problem with homosexuality I let the accusation of homosexuality slide by. But child molestation?

I had recently been a substitute teacher and wanted to go back to that line of work after I had ceased being a caretaker for my recently-deceased mother who had died of Parkinsonism (she was in a nursing home and she needed either my father or me to be there so that she could be fed at he meals. I was scared that an accusation of child sexual abuse of any kind would ruin my potential for a career that I actually enjoyed.

I told that creep that I had gone to church. In a session in which people were talking about their concerns mostly of health and finances I noticed that the youth minister was getting little attention. My concern was very different from cancer, heart disease, and other often-terminal illnesses. The youth minister heard my concern, and we decided to pray... for the troll who was tormenting me. I am not a homosexual and I can imagine far worse, let alone a child abuser. The problem wasn't with me. After all, it seemed like something that one of my heroes, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., did about his enemies. Pray for the segregationist or the Klansman, the person who needs the most help from God.

I posted such on the Forum and he mocked me. "You, f@g! Praying for me! What a hypocrite!"

Maybe the power of prayer is over-rated.  Some people just don't get the message.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#10
(07-13-2016, 08:49 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 08:34 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: I have often wondered if one of the reason that the old forum was shut down was because so many people had begun to use it for personal attack.

That often happens.

There was one creep, a vile antisemite (Holocaust denier) who accused me at a tough point in my life of being a homosexual child molester. Because I had no problem with homosexuality I let the accusation of homosexuality slide by. But child molestation?

I had recently been a substitute teacher and wanted to go back to that line of work after I had ceased being a caretaker for my recently-deceased mother who had died of Parkinsonism (she was in a nursing home and she needed either my father or me to be there so that she could be fed at he meals. I was scared that an accusation of child sexual abuse of any kind would ruin my potential for a career that I actually enjoyed.

I told that creep that I had gone to church. In a session in which people were talking about their concerns mostly of health and finances I noticed that the youth minister was getting little attention. My concern was very different from cancer, heart disease, and other often-terminal illnesses. The youth minister heard my concern, and we decided to pray... for the troll who was tormenting me. I am not a homosexual and I can imagine far worse, let alone a child abuser. The problem wasn;t with me.   After all, it seemed like something that one of my heroes, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., did about his enemies. Pray for the segregationist or the Klansman, the person who needs the most help from God.

I posted such on the Forum and he mocked me. "You, f@g! Praying for me! What a hypocrite!"

Maybe the power of prayer is over-rated.  Some people just don't get the message.

hi pbrower, i was so shocked when I could not find the forum.  Could not figure out how it disappeared so suddenly.  I tried emailing Howe but never hear anything.  Kept searching and finally found you when this place opened up.  I was surprised at my reaction to the loss of the forum as i rarely post anymore.  But love seeing the old familiar handles and seeing their posts again.  Especially since things are getting so deep into crisis mode.  Every once in a while I think I see signs of regeneracy, but it will be suddenly yanked away.  I think one side is just going to have to totally annihilate the other side before there can be any chance of getting anything done again.
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#11
(07-13-2016, 08:49 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 08:34 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: I have often wondered if one of the reason that the old forum was shut down was because so many people had begun to use it for personal attack.

That often happens.

There was one creep, a vile antisemite (Holocaust denier) who accused me at a tough point in my life of being a homosexual child molester. Because I had no problem with homosexuality I let the accusation of homosexuality slide by. But child molestation?

I had recently been a substitute teacher and wanted to go back to that line of work after I had ceased being a caretaker for my recently-deceased mother who had died of Parkinsonism (she was in a nursing home and she needed either my father or me to be there so that she could be fed at he meals. I was scared that an accusation of child sexual abuse of any kind would ruin my potential for a career that I actually enjoyed.

I told that creep that I had gone to church. In a session in which people were talking about their concerns mostly of health and finances I noticed that the youth minister was getting little attention. My concern was very different from cancer, heart disease, and other often-terminal illnesses. The youth minister heard my concern, and we decided to pray... for the troll who was tormenting me. I am not a homosexual and I can imagine far worse, let alone a child abuser. The problem wasn;t with me.   After all, it seemed like something that one of my heroes, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., did about his enemies. Pray for the segregationist or the Klansman, the person who needs the most help from God.

I posted such on the Forum and he mocked me. "You, f@g! Praying for me! What a hypocrite!"

Maybe the power of prayer is over-rated.  Some people just don't get the message.

Praying is over rated especially for atheists like myself. But that guy in particular sounds like a special nasty piece of work to begin with and hopefully he is not on this forum.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#12
(07-13-2016, 11:07 PM)jadams Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 08:49 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 08:34 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: I have often wondered if one of the reason that the old forum was shut down was because so many people had begun to use it for personal attack.

That often happens.

There was one creep, a vile antisemite (Holocaust denier) who accused me at a tough point in my life of being a homosexual child molester. Because I had no problem with homosexuality I let the accusation of homosexuality slide by. But child molestation?

I had recently been a substitute teacher and wanted to go back to that line of work after I had ceased being a caretaker for my recently-deceased mother who had died of Parkinsonism (she was in a nursing home and she needed either my father or me to be there so that she could be fed at he meals. I was scared that an accusation of child sexual abuse of any kind would ruin my potential for a career that I actually enjoyed.

I told that creep that I had gone to church. In a session in which people were talking about their concerns mostly of health and finances I noticed that the youth minister was getting little attention. My concern was very different from cancer, heart disease, and other often-terminal illnesses. The youth minister heard my concern, and we decided to pray... for the troll who was tormenting me. I am not a homosexual and I can imagine far worse, let alone a child abuser. The problem wasn;t with me.   After all, it seemed like something that one of my heroes, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., did about his enemies. Pray for the segregationist or the Klansman, the person who needs the most help from God.

I posted such on the Forum and he mocked me. "You, f@g! Praying for me! What a hypocrite!"

Maybe the power of prayer is over-rated.  Some people just don't get the message.

hi pbrower, i was so shocked when I could not find the forum.  Could not figure out how it disappeared so suddenly.  I tried emailing Howe but never hear anything.  Kept searching and finally found you when this place opened up.  I was surprised at my reaction to the loss of the forum as i rarely post anymore.  But love seeing the old familiar handles and seeing their posts again.  Especially since things are getting so deep into crisis mode.  Every once in a while I think I see signs of regeneracy, but it will be suddenly yanked away.  I think one side is just going to have to totally annihilate the other side before there can be any chance of getting anything done again.

When the Crisis ends, people like that creep either will dominate America (which I think unlikely -- same-sex marriage and related gay and transgender rights have won once and for all) or will be completely out in the cold, which is far more likely. That creep will know that he is an idiot in the original sense of the word -- out on his own, an army of one fool that the rest of humanity considers a useless, sick joke.

I predict that the Internet will become increasingly family-friendly, and someone who tries to use it to defame whole groups or libel persons will raise warnings.  But even as the Crisis Era well defines itself with a focus, someone like that troll will find out the hard way how unwelcome he is. He will end up off the grid, a pariah and not a world-renouncing hermit.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#13
(07-13-2016, 11:14 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 08:49 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(07-13-2016, 08:34 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: I have often wondered if one of the reason that the old forum was shut down was because so many people had begun to use it for personal attack.

That often happens.

There was one creep, a vile antisemite (Holocaust denier) who accused me at a tough point in my life of being a homosexual child molester. Because I had no problem with homosexuality I let the accusation of homosexuality slide by. But child molestation?

...

Praying is over rated especially for atheists like myself. But that guy in particular sounds like a special nasty piece of work to begin with and hopefully he is not on this forum.

This Forum seems to be more choosy about who gets on. I know of at least two posters ("Feds are out to get me" and "Social Security is a Ponzi scheme") from the old Forum who are not here. I had those posters on my Ignore List.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#14
(07-14-2016, 06:36 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: This Forum seems to be more choosy about who gets on. I know of at least two posters ("Feds are out to get me" and "Social Security is a Ponzi scheme") from the old Forum who are not here. I had those posters on my Ignore List.

There are some who are not here and from my perspective not missed. The stronger moderation seems to have improved things.

I may be imagining it, but there does seem to be a tendency to entrench in partisan perspectives here, though. This might be the presidential election cycle? I seem to recall that as the major elections approach, people double down on a need for their values to triumph. I can understand, but for me it results in shrill and shallow reading.
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#15
(07-14-2016, 07:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: There are some who are not here and from my perspective not missed.  The stronger moderation seems to have improved things.

I may be imagining it, but there does seem to be a tendency to entrench in partisan perspectives here, though.  This might be the presidential election cycle?  I seem to recall that as the major elections approach, people double down on a need for their values to triumph.  I can understand, but for me it results in shrill and shallow reading.

I saw a bit of American politics on C-Span (used to be intriguing, and now it is sickening) in which the Republicans voted to give only a handful of nays and the Democrats gave less than a handful of yeas. Maybe if the issue were something trivial, like renaming a post office for a local war hero, it would not be so polarized. Anything substantive shows how monolithic the two main American Parties have become.

I have little good to say about the Republican Party as it now is constituted, so I can be as shrill as anyone. I can imagine America after the end of the Crisis as the sort of place in which the rich get the pie and the poor are promised "Pie in the Sky When You Die" in return for Hell on Earth. I can imagine an economic equivalent of Apartheid, an exaggeration of the reality that started to appear as Ronald Reagan became President. The nastiest social orders require the most brutal repression for the enforcement of the will of the elites. Already there is so much easy money for a few and so much hardship for so many.

In the current issue of Consumer Reports, a young woman laments having ruined her life -- not by drugs, booze, or either an STD or an unplanned pregnancy, but instead by going to college and going heavily in debt. But what alternatives are there if one is to have a chance at the American dream of at the least a white-collar job without abject subjection?

If I were much younger and had children I would consider emigration because America seems to be going down the path to a society polarized between two different realities, one of indulgence characteristic of oil sheikhs in the Arabian peninsula and one of privation and debt-bondage for the masses. The easy money for a few implies great suffering for the many. Just read Les Miserables to get an idea of what America is becoming.

On the other side.... California is so far to the Left because of exorbitant rents.  How does $2500 for a single-bedroom apartment sound?
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#16
(07-13-2016, 11:07 PM)jadams Wrote: ... i was so shocked when I could not find the forum.  Could not figure out how it disappeared so suddenly.  I tried emailing Howe but never hear anything.  Kept searching and finally found you when this place opened up.  I was surprised at my reaction to the loss of the forum as i rarely post anymore.  But love seeing the old familiar handles and seeing their posts again.  Especially since things are getting so deep into crisis mode.  Every once in a while I think I see signs of regeneracy, but it will be suddenly yanked away.  I think one side is just going to have to totally annihilate the other side before there can be any chance of getting anything done again.

Always a pleasure to have your sunny optimism.  Angel

FWIW, I tend to share your concerns
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#17
Hi, David! Big Grin
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#18
(07-14-2016, 07:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(07-14-2016, 06:36 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: This Forum seems to be more choosy about who gets on. I know of at least two posters ("Feds are out to get me" and "Social Security is a Ponzi scheme") from the old Forum who are not here. I had those posters on my Ignore List.

There are some who are not here and from my perspective not missed.  The stronger moderation seems to have improved things.

I may be imagining it, but there does seem to be a tendency to entrench in partisan perspectives here, though.  This might be the presidential election cycle?  I seem to recall that as the major elections approach, people double down on a need for their values to triumph.  I can understand, but for me it results in shrill and shallow reading.

I think it is the election.  I generally read American Conservative and Vox to get a stereo view of things.  In non-election years I typical encounter a handful of articles on either one that are jarring enough that I stop reading it.  This year I ecounter more jarring articles, particularly on AC.  I expect next year things will settle back to normal.
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#19
I was surprised and disappointed when the old forum disappeared. Took me a long time to find this one. I am glad I did. I read the 4T back in the 90s when it came out, and a again a few years ago. I've since been working on getting other people to read it and had some success. Once you understand the theory, it becomes a lot easier to see what is happening around you. I was particularly curious to see how the long terms folks here interpret recent events, especially the rise of Trump and all the surrounding scandal. I am no Hillary supporter, and the lust for gun restrictions turns me away from the Democrats but in my opinion the attempt at a coronation as president was a rigged job and it backfired.
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#20
Your turn away from the Democrats due to their lust for gun restrictions, guarantees lots more mass shootings and crime. But many on the left will say that it's time to stock up. There may develop a balance of firepower that looks about like those two white and black guys in the gym someone just posted. So look for more political gun battles too and escalation of the militias and the riots. Civil war is around the corner.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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