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(06-03-2016, 01:36 AM)Galen Wrote: A government is not a business. Name a private sector business that can compel you to buy their product or service? I should be very surprise if you find one. Simply spending will not create wealth because the state has no way to determine what is truly valuable. This is the the most important lesson that you can learn from the writings of Mises and Rothbard.
Perhaps the most important delusion.
Of course the state has a way to determine what is valuable. It's what the people vote for. They express their values when they vote.
The private sector compels you to buy products because it corners markets. "Cartelization" is the natural tendency of the free-market, not a "mistake" which it committed in the late 19th and early 20th century. It has come roaring back since neo-liberal, libertarian economics assumed power in the USA and in many western-style democracies in the 1980s. We live now in a society dominated by cartels, and justified by the slogans of "free enterprise" that merely enable the cartels to dominate us. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are leaders in the movement in the USA to return control of our state to the people instead of these new-style cartels.
The private sector also compels people to obey the dictates of money and property. If people don't, they get hauled off to jail for stealing. But that means that money rules. He that has the gold, rules, is the libertarian version of the golden rule. I prefer the traditional version myself; the one upheld by all religions.
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(06-03-2016, 09:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-03-2016, 01:36 AM)Galen Wrote: A government is not a business. Name a private sector business that can compel you to buy their product or service? I should be very surprise if you find one. Simply spending will not create wealth because the state has no way to determine what is truly valuable. This is the the most important lesson that you can learn from the writings of Mises and Rothbard.
Perhaps the most important delusion.
Of course the state has a way to determine what is valuable. It's what the people vote for. They express their values when they vote.
The private sector also compels people to obey the dictates of money and property. If people don't, they get hauled off to jail for stealing. But that means that money rules. He that has the gold, rules, is the libertarian version of the golden rule. I prefer the traditional version myself; the one upheld by all religions.
Government can not do economic calculation. Voting as a means of economic calculation is absurd for the simple reason that 50% + 1 get to override the preferences of 50% - 1. This typically does not happen in the market for the simple reason that one producers products do not necessarily preclude the existence of another producer creating something else. Voting only allows people to express a preference without regard to the resources available which is by no means economic calculation and tends to lead to disaster. People keep voting for socialists in Venezuela but it is safe to say that they don't like what they are getting.
If you botthered to read Gabriel Kolko, no friend of the free market, you would know that he came to essentially the same conclusion that Rothbard did about the consequences of the progressives. He was not very happy about that discovery. You are an economic illiterate who has only been exposed to the comic book version of history one gets through the public schools. Yet another example of the glaring failures of the state.
Saying that people are compelled by economic realities is a bit like saying people are compelled by physics to fall should they walk off a cliff. Money is a medium of exchange which allow people to decide for themselves what is most important to them. It also provides a way of allocating resource to their best use a expressed by their preferences.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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06-03-2016, 05:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2016, 06:12 PM by Eric the Green.)
(06-03-2016, 12:42 PM)Galen Wrote: (06-03-2016, 09:08 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-03-2016, 01:36 AM)Galen Wrote: A government is not a business. Name a private sector business that can compel you to buy their product or service? I should be very surprise if you find one. Simply spending will not create wealth because the state has no way to determine what is truly valuable. This is the the most important lesson that you can learn from the writings of Mises and Rothbard.
Perhaps the most important delusion.
Of course the state has a way to determine what is valuable. It's what the people vote for. They express their values when they vote.
The private sector also compels people to obey the dictates of money and property. If people don't, they get hauled off to jail for stealing. But that means that money rules. He that has the gold, rules, is the libertarian version of the golden rule. I prefer the traditional version myself; the one upheld by all religions.
Government can not do economic calculation.
Stop you right there. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you fall for this most obvious of delusions. Amazing, though! You and your libertarian buddies REALLY DO think that "value" = "economic calculation!" Total absurdity!
Quote: Voting as a means of economic calculation is absurd for the simple reason that 50% + 1 get to override the preferences of 50% - 1. This typically does not happen in the market for the simple reason that one producers products do not necessarily preclude the existence of another producer creating something else. Voting only allows people to express a preference without regard to the resources available which is by no means economic calculation and tends to lead to disaster. People keep voting for socialists in Venezuela but it is safe to say that they don't like what they are getting.
Venezuela was unfortunately not socialist, but cult worship. I would not have voted for that bozo Hugo Chavez.
People voting express their values; their priorities of what needs to be done by the state. That of course includes how much people want to be taxed. All this obviously encompasses much more than what makes the most money for somebody. If resources are needed to accomplish what is needed, then it taxes you. And I hope it taxes you until you bleed! Since that's all you care about!
Quote:If you botthered to read Gabriel Kolko, no friend of the free market, you would know that he came to essentially the same conclusion that Rothbard did about the consequences of the progressives. He was not very happy about that discovery. You are an economic illiterate who has only been exposed to the comic book version of history one gets through the public schools. Yet another example of the glaring failures of the state.
You obviously don't read my posts so you are not entitled to say what I know or what I don't.
Quote:Saying that people are compelled by economic realities is a bit like saying people are compelled by physics to fall should they walk off a cliff. Money is a medium of exchange which allow people to decide for themselves what is most important to them. It also provides a way of allocating resource to their best use a expressed by their preferences.
Money can't buy what is most important to people, and having money does not mean that the market will supply you with what you need. Often, it only supplies what is convenient for them to make. That's why I often cannot buy what I want to buy in this economy. And money in the world does not mean that a corporate economy is going to hire you, and it certainly does not provide for fair wages or working conditions. What making the market central DOES do, is force all values into the economic calculus. And that means the abdication of all values, and the destruction of our planet.
If anything has screwed up the last century-plus, and provided a false foundation for our civilization, it is this obsession with economics, the lowest value, above all other values. If you look at previous civilizations around the world, you see people dedicated to spending enormous time and effort on making beautiful monuments and works of art that express the spirit. Money was not the motive for these accomplishments, and their value can't be expressed in economic terms. But, dummies like you think that money is the only value, and that's why we have the kind of commercial claptrap that we have in our society.
Is this discussion off topic? Not really. Those earlier civilizations understood that there's more to existence than one lifetime for one human being. What is valuable is what lasts. Economic calculation guarantees that what is created will not be any more valuable than next week's balance sheet. What a shallow view of life you have, Galen!
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06-03-2016, 07:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2016, 06:51 AM by Mikebert.)
[Galen]If you botthered to read Gabriel Kolko, no friend of the free market, you would know that he came to essentially the same conclusion that Rothbard did about the consequences of the progressives. He was not very happy about that discovery. You are an economic illiterate who has only been exposed to the comic book version of history one gets through the public schools. Yet another example of the glaring failures of the state.
[Mike] I was going to bring up this point, but see you already did. The mistake you are making is you seem to be confusing the progressives to which Kolko referred, with the New Dealers of later times. From a right pov they look the same, just as the many varieties of conservatives look the same from a left pov, but they are quite different.
Also I find your call for a mystical economics amusing.
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(06-03-2016, 07:07 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Also I find your call for a mystical economics amusing.
It isn't but the Austrian School approach recognizes that experiments are not possible. What you have to work with is logic and deduction from actual events and human nature. Much of what they write can be translated in Propositional Logic and First Order Predicate Calculus which are very useful tools in proving whether a statement is true. There is nothing mystical about such this.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(06-03-2016, 07:07 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Also I find your call for a mystical economics amusing.
Ha ha 
Researchers finally confirm. There is life beyond economics.
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(06-04-2016, 06:47 AM)Mikebert Wrote: [Galen]What you have to work with is logic and deduction from actual events and human nature. Much of what they write can be translated in Propositional Logic and First Order Predicate Calculus which are very useful tools in proving whether a statement is true. There is nothing mystical about such this.
[Mike]The mysticism comes in the assumptions about human nature.
Not really. People always try to improve improve their material conditions at the lowest possible cost. It is known that people prefer some things over other and that varies from one person to another. This is where the concept of marginal utility comes from and it helps explain many economic matters.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(06-04-2016, 05:45 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: (06-03-2016, 07:07 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Also I find your call for a mystical economics amusing.
Ha ha
Researchers finally confirm. There is life beyond economics.
Careful. That was almost a joke.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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OK, Galen and others.... bring the discussion here. Many people don't like the merits and demerits of Hayek, Mises, etc., discussed in their pet forums on spirituality, culture, etc.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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New thread for the discussion of the Austrian school. Please take the discussion of Austrian economics (not to be confused with the glorious fount of Austrian music) there. Thank you.
http://generational-theory.com/forum/thread-161.html
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(Says Galen)
Quote:the Austrian School approach recognizes that experiments are not possible. What you have to work with is logic and deduction from actual events and human nature. Much of what they write can be translated in Propositional Logic and First Order Predicate Calculus which are very useful tools in proving whether a statement is true. There is nothing mystical about such this.
I say: no valid science so operates. Propositional logic is practically an admission of the paucity of empirical evidence. First order predicate calculus sounds impressive -- but it is capable of proving reality based upon some extant principles beyond proof.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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The outcome of the Republican primary has made the Austrian School every bit as irrelevant as the outcome of the Civil War made slavery.
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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