Why is it taking so much time to bring Trump to court?

[Captain Genet]

In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

[David Horn]

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Since you're not an American, I'll give you a pass on why this is so.  American jurisprudence is intentionally protracted, with much of what makes it so slow totally hidden from view.  Before Georgia goes active, expect something from the joint effort between NYC and NY State.  Best guess: early to mid September.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

I was just wondering that today.

[Bob Butler 54]

I have been wondering longer than that.  They likely do want to do it right.  Cross Ts.  Dot Is.  I have also been wondering if somebody quietly wants the court cases to be at their head or being in the very near past during the mid terms.

[David Horn]

(06-15-2021, 02:22 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering longer than that.  They likely do want to do it right.  Cross Ts.  Dot Is.  I have also been wondering if somebody quietly wants the court cases to be at their head or being in the very near past during the mid terms.

I think this is certainly a concern.  In most cases, the prosecution has a lot of flexibility on timing, but the defense can delay things too.  There may be a decision by them that this is better handled after the elections, assuming the judge goes along.

[Warren Dew]

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

[pbrower2a]

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

Suppose that the San Jose city police have some suspicions about a car... and the cop in the patrol car can input the license-plate number into the police computer. The plates are registered to an owner who has reported the car stolen. The police approach the driver and ask for identification and get told a bunch of BS about the car. It's an easy case of grand-theft auto. The case will go quickly to trial after the arrest because most elements of the crime are obvious. Car is reported stolen, and the person driving isn't the owner. 

(I pick San Jose, California because it was the first city to put computers in police cars. Arrests for grand theft auto spiked, and then fell of precipitously as the criminal element learned quickly to not steal cars). 

It is not so clear with Donald Trump. He can deny making the call, or he can deny its content. He can say that he was joking, and there are people who might believe him. A rush to judgment may result in an acquittal, so prosecutors must ensure that all elements necessary for a prosecution are solid.

[David Horn]

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

I would agree that large swaths of Georgia and LA are in different countries, but Atlanta and LA aren't that different.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-16-2021, 09:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

I would agree that large swaths of Georgia and LA are in different countries, but Atlanta and LA aren't that different.

Both states are divided.  It wasn't that long ago that CA was a red state.  Both have large cities and large rural areas.  It is just that now Atlanta and other urban areas are beginning to turn Georgia blue.  The two states illustrate as well as anything the problem of dividing America geographically.  

The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy.  Before the George Floyd killings, they had a decisive enough advantage to hold the country.  It was racist organizations that put a violent edge to the January 6 insurrection.  It was people fed up with racist organized murder that gave Biden the decisive edge to win the 2020 election.  I do not see the rural racist folk getting hold of the elections again.  They are making a game of it still, but the court cases are in limbo.  I don't see the Big Lie holding us in limbo indefinitely.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 12:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 09:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

I would agree that large swaths of Georgia and LA are in different countries, but Atlanta and LA aren't that different.

Both states are divided.  It wasn't that long ago that CA was a red state.  Both have large cities and large rural areas.  It is just that now Atlanta and other urban areas are beginning to turn Georgia blue.  The two states illustrate as well as anything the problem of dividing America geographically.  

The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy.  Before the George Floyd killings, they had a decisive enough advantage to hold the country.  It was racist organizations that put a violent edge to the January 6 insurrection.  It was people fed up with racist organized murder that gave Biden the decisive edge to win the 2020 election.  I do not see the rural racist folk getting hold of the elections again.  They are making a game of it still, but the court cases are in limbo.  I don't see the Big Lie holding us in limbo indefinitely.

I hope you are right. Trump only lost by 43,000 votes, and I am not sure about the 2022 midterms either. Democrats need to win them if there is to be timely and effective reforms made during the decade in which it is time to make them. I hope they bring Trump to Court before the midterms. It should not be cause for delay.

[Captain Genet]

(06-16-2021, 12:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy.  Before the George Floyd killings, they had a decisive enough advantage to hold the country.  It was racist organizations that put a violent edge to the January 6 insurrection.  It was people fed up with racist organized murder that gave Biden the decisive edge to win the 2020 election.  I do not see the rural racist folk getting hold of the elections again.  They are making a game of it still, but the court cases are in limbo.  I don't see the Big Lie holding us in limbo indefinitely.

Racist views should be deplatformed the same way fascism was deplatformed in Europe after 1945. For example Evangelical leaders should make it clear that anyone who hates Blacks, or thinks Blacks are not capable of being as culturally sophisticated as Whites, violates the Biblical teaching according to which all humans are descended from Adam and Eve. Racists would have the choice to either abandon their views, or convert to Satanism, Odinism or Russian Orthodoxy. The latter choice would make them distinctly un-American.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 12:56 PM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 12:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy.  Before the George Floyd killings, they had a decisive enough advantage to hold the country.  It was racist organizations that put a violent edge to the January 6 insurrection.  It was people fed up with racist organized murder that gave Biden the decisive edge to win the 2020 election.  I do not see the rural racist folk getting hold of the elections again.  They are making a game of it still, but the court cases are in limbo.  I don't see the Big Lie holding us in limbo indefinitely.

Racist views should be deplatformed the same way fascism was deplatformed in Europe after 1945. For example Evangelical leaders should make it clear that anyone who hates Blacks, or thinks Blacks are not capable of being as culturally sophisticated as Whites, violates the Biblical teaching according to which all humans are descended from Adam and Eve. Racists would have the choice to either abandon their views, or convert to Satanism, Odinism or Russian Orthodoxy. The latter choice would make them distinctly un-American.

I don't know what Odinism is. Is that another of some kind of cyber cult for millennials and Gen Zers?

If you mean Norse paganism, I suppose that could be some alternative for people whom the Evangelicals expel from their religion, but I don't see any inherent racism in most forms of paganism or neo-paganism. It tends otherwise. As for Russian Orthodoxy, isn't that just the more original form of the Christian Church, and therefore quite as Biblical as Evangelicals?

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 12:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 09:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

I would agree that large swaths of Georgia and LA are in different countries, but Atlanta and LA aren't that different.

Both states are divided.  It wasn't that long ago that CA was a red state.  Both have large cities and large rural areas.  It is just that now Atlanta and other urban areas are beginning to turn Georgia blue.  The two states illustrate as well as anything the problem of dividing America geographically.  

The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy....

The most viable solution to the current national divide is for one side, preferably the blue side, to win well enough so that the red side no longer can shape national policy, and they can lash out and be suppressed in the 4T or learn to go along in the 1T. Probably the solution to the disproportionate red power of today in the senate and electoral college is demographic; more northern liberals and more southern and African immigrants moving into the reddish purple states. Virginia, Colorado, Nevada and New Mexico have already become blue because of these trends, just as CA did back in the 1990s. AZ and GA flipped in 2020, although the Republicans still control them and are trying to keep these new folks from voting. North Carolina and Florida seem possible, but are trending red. Texas is a possibility in the future. Meanwhile Ohio and Iowa have turned red and seem to have little prospect of being purple again. The upper midwest remains barely blue.

Could the USA be divided, if it comes to that? It is unlikely, but still possible, and interesting to speculate about. Some states are more rural-red, with weakly blue or red urban areas, while others have larger and more blue urban areas as well as strong rural red areas. I suspect states would have to vote to choose which way to go, and that they could. In other cases, parts of states could split off from the rest and join the other side. After all this is decided, a migration trend already happening since the 1990s could be speeded up; that is, blue people migrating to blue states, and red people migrating to red states. A kind of voluntary, political and ethnic cleansing process.

Contiguous red and blue areas would work best, and this would have to be decided too. I see one division solution as the north-eastern and western coastal and perhaps some desert southwest states and perhaps a few northern midwestern states joining up with Canada to make a new contiguous country, or becoming two contiguous and allied blue countries, while the rural red "heartland" of the current USA would be easy to put together.

It doesn't mean that these two or three new American states would have to be at war all the time, after separation, and could even make trade deals and military alliances. On the other hand, more walls might be put up by the red heartland country. Maybe at first to keep immigrants out, but increasingly, as the red country suffers its inevitable further decline, to keep their young and restless folks in.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-16-2021, 01:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you mean Norse paganism, I suppose that could be some alternative for people whom the Evangelicals expel from their religion, but I don't see any inherent racism in most forms of paganism or neo-paganism. It tends otherwise. As for Russian Orthodoxy, isn't that just the more original form of the Christian Church, and therefore quite as Biblical as Evangelicals?

I see yet another set of protestant groups splitting off the established racist sects. There are enough protestant sects, and you change along the lines of the controversial doctrine.

[David Horn]

(06-16-2021, 12:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 12:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 09:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 03:12 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: In the days following the Capitol Putsch, media reported Trump will be prosecuted in Georgia for attempting to change the election results in Georgia: Prosecute Donald Trump. His Georgia call is enough evidence - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

So what's going on with this issue?

Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

I would agree that large swaths of Georgia and LA are in different countries, but Atlanta and LA aren't that different.

Both states are divided.  It wasn't that long ago that CA was a red state.  Both have large cities and large rural areas.  It is just that now Atlanta and other urban areas are beginning to turn Georgia blue.  The two states illustrate as well as anything the problem of dividing America geographically.  

The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy.  Before the George Floyd killings, they had a decisive enough advantage to hold the country.  It was racist organizations that put a violent edge to the January 6 insurrection.  It was people fed up with racist organized murder that gave Biden the decisive edge to win the 2020 election.  I do not see the rural racist folk getting hold of the elections again.  They are making a game of it still, but the court cases are in limbo.  I don't see the Big Lie holding us in limbo indefinitely.

I hope you are right. Trump only lost by 43,000 votes, and I am not sure about the 2022 midterms either. Democrats need to win them if there is to be timely and effective reforms made during the decade in which it is time to make them. I hope they bring Trump to Court before the midterms. It should not be cause for delay.

It's a worldwide miasma that's gripping democracies everywhere.  Far too many people see their chance to succeed evaporating, and they blame the easiest targets: the poor and powerless. Here it's race.  In other countries it's religion or ethnicity. In all countries it's the modern capitalist system.  

Yes, there are more Blues than Reds, but the Reds feel under siege.  Expect every dirty trick in the book -- and some not written.  Just look elsewhere for clues on just how far this can go.  The large swaths of social conservatives see this time as existential.  I doubt the progressives are as motivated.  

I  agree that 2022 will tell the tale.  Will the miscreants in the GOP succeed in stealing (yes, that's the right word) elections by then?  They are certainly trying.  If stasis prevents Federal legislation to overturn most of the meddling, then assume 2024 will be crisis in brief.

[Captain Genet]

(06-16-2021, 01:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what Odinism is. Is that another of some kind of cyber cult for millennials and Gen Zers?

If you mean Norse paganism, I suppose that could be some alternative for people whom the Evangelicals expel from their religion, but I don't see any inherent racism in most forms of paganism or neo-paganism. It tends otherwise. As for Russian Orthodoxy, isn't that just the more original form of the Christian Church, and therefore quite as Biblical as Evangelicals?

Odinism is a racist variety Norse paganism:
https://odinia.org/what-is-odinism/

I don't know why but many white nationalists like Russian orthodoxy. Possibly because of their general infatuation with Putin's Russia. Or maybe because unlike Catholicism and Protestantism, it doesn't have many non-white followers.
https://religiondispatches.org/how-ortho...tionalism/

I always saw Evangelicalism as purely Biblical, while Catholicism and Orthodoxy are also influenced by Greeko-Roman philosophy.

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:I see yet another set of protestant groups splitting off the established racist sects. There are enough protestant sects, and you change along the lines of the controversial doctrine.

Sadly I agree. There is no one unified organization for Evangelicals, so if one pastor expels all racists, there will always be another who will be happy to bless them.

[Eric the Green]

(06-17-2021, 02:31 PM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 01:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what Odinism is. Is that another of some kind of cyber cult for millennials and Gen Zers?

If you mean Norse paganism, I suppose that could be some alternative for people whom the Evangelicals expel from their religion, but I don't see any inherent racism in most forms of paganism or neo-paganism. It tends otherwise. As for Russian Orthodoxy, isn't that just the more original form of the Christian Church, and therefore quite as Biblical as Evangelicals?

Odinism is a racist variety Norse paganism:
https://odinia.org/what-is-odinism/

I don't know why but many white nationalists like Russian orthodoxy. Possibly because of their general infatuation with Putin's Russia. Or maybe because unlike Catholicism and Protestantism, it doesn't have many non-white followers.
https://religiondispatches.org/how-ortho...tionalism/

I always saw Evangelicalism as purely Biblical, while Catholicism and Orthodoxy are also influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy.

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:I see yet another set of protestant groups splitting off the established racist sects. There are enough protestant sects, and you change along the lines of the controversial doctrine.

Sadly I agree. There is no one unified organization for Evangelicals, so if one pastor expels all racists, there will always be another who will be happy to bless them.

What I find interesting is this: Odinia International [1] is an Odinist religious organization which has chapters mainly on the U.S. mainland and in the United Kingdom.

I don't see any racism in their doctrine. In the page you linked, they wrote:

"we have no concept of the innate evil of mankind, or of women being inferior to men, no hatred of science, reason or truth, no tradition of holy war to force our religion on others, no proselytizing, no belief that seeking knowledge is a sin, and no separation of God and nature."

That all seems fine. But what I find is that this group is influenced by contemporary neo-liberalism that has ruled the US and the UK for the last 40 years. There is a swipe at supposed Christian "Communism" and this group appeals to self-reliance and merit and is opposed to inherent economic equality. So while neo-liberalism, as thus expressed by this group, has closet racist sympathies because it opposes welfare, and poorer ethnic groups tend to be on welfare more often, it is not specifically racist. Meanwhile, actual people in Norway and Scandinavia today are quite pro-socialist and liberal in their views; in fact, they are the most politically-advanced folks on the planet today.

So the problem with this supposed Norse Paganism called "Odinism" is that it is not Norse, and not ancient, but current anglo-american, and thus influenced by contemporary conservative politics in the US and UK.

"I always saw Evangelicalism as purely Biblical, while Catholicism and Orthodoxy are also influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy."

But that isn't true; the traditional Christian demoninations (Catholicism and Orthodox) are very Biblical, and they uphold the traditional creed, and if there is some influence from Greco-Roman philosophy, that is no reason to knock them or suspect them of any problems either-- certainly not racism. Fundamentalist evangelicals are not Biblical, they are literalists. Actual Christians whether ancient or modern see the Bible as often metaphorical and symbolic, not literal.

The evangelicals are the ones with the problems. They are guilty of many of the charges laid upon them by the Odinists.

This week the Southern Baptist Convention narrowly elected a leader committed to dealing with and healing racism. The SBC held together though and did not split.

[Eric the Green]

(06-17-2021, 08:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 12:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 12:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 09:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 05:32 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Georgia and the LA times might as well be in different countries, for how much they understand each other.

I would agree that large swaths of Georgia and LA are in different countries, but Atlanta and LA aren't that different.

Both states are divided.  It wasn't that long ago that CA was a red state.  Both have large cities and large rural areas.  It is just that now Atlanta and other urban areas are beginning to turn Georgia blue.  The two states illustrate as well as anything the problem of dividing America geographically.  

The problem seems to be that large parts of rural red America seem to prefer racism to democracy.  Before the George Floyd killings, they had a decisive enough advantage to hold the country.  It was racist organizations that put a violent edge to the January 6 insurrection.  It was people fed up with racist organized murder that gave Biden the decisive edge to win the 2020 election.  I do not see the rural racist folk getting hold of the elections again.  They are making a game of it still, but the court cases are in limbo.  I don't see the Big Lie holding us in limbo indefinitely.

I hope you are right. Trump only lost by 43,000 votes, and I am not sure about the 2022 midterms either. Democrats need to win them if there is to be timely and effective reforms made during the decade in which it is time to make them. I hope they bring Trump to Court before the midterms. It should not be cause for delay.

It's a worldwide miasma that's gripping democracies everywhere.  Far too many people see their chance to succeed evaporating, and they blame the easiest targets: the poor and powerless. Here it's race.  In other countries it's religion or ethnicity. In all countries it's the modern capitalist system.  

Yes, there are more Blues than Reds, but the Reds feel under siege.  Expect every dirty trick in the book -- and some not written.  Just look elsewhere for clues on just how far this can go.  The large swaths of social conservatives see this time as existential.  I doubt the progressives are as motivated.  

I  agree that 2022 will tell the tale.  Will the miscreants in the GOP succeed in stealing (yes, that's the right word) elections by then?  They are certainly trying.  If stasis prevents Federal legislation to overturn most of the meddling, then assume 2024 will be crisis in brief.

2022 will be crucial for a successful 4T, but if the Republicans win, the 4T won't be over. Biden will run for re-election and probably win (or at least I hope so; if Kamala is nominated she will lose). So assuming Biden wins again in 2024 then there's 4 more years in which the blue side can carry the day. These days, progressives are more and more motivated. But I agree, the reds feel under siege and we can't underestimate the lengths to which they are already demonstrating they will go. 

That's why it's a battle. The confederates felt the same way. The blues were less motivated then too, but like us they were the majority, and they prevailed, and I predict that today's blues will also prevail. But it shows what a fight we truly have on our hands. That just means that the 4T isn't over; not that we have already lost, or even that if we lose in 2022 we will have lost the battle.

But then, I have some faith that the Uranus Return to its degree position in the USA horoscope will still be significant, as it was so significant in the past. It marks the crisis climax, as in 1776, 1861 and 1944, to the degree, and marked the previous crises in the 1690s and 1608 too, and it is not due until 2027. And there's no reason to believe the saeculum is speeding up and can be prematurely cut off just because things still look dark. Mr. Howe doesn't think so. The archetypal 84-year length of a human life, the basis for both cycles, has not changed.

[David Horn]

(06-17-2021, 04:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-17-2021, 08:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are more Blues than Reds, but the Reds feel under siege.  Expect every dirty trick in the book -- and some not written.  Just look elsewhere for clues on just how far this can go.  The large swaths of social conservatives see this time as existential.  I doubt the progressives are as motivated.  

I  agree that 2022 will tell the tale.  Will the miscreants in the GOP succeed in stealing (yes, that's the right word) elections by then?  They are certainly trying.  If stasis prevents Federal legislation to overturn most of the meddling, then assume 2024 will be crisis in brief.

2022 will be crucial for a successful 4T, but if the Republicans win, the 4T won't be over. Biden will run for re-election and probably win (or at least I hope so; if Kamala is nominated she will lose). So assuming Biden wins again in 2024 then there's 4 more years in which the blue side can carry the day. These days, progressives are more and more motivated. But I agree, the reds feel under siege and we can't underestimate the lengths to which they are already demonstrating they will go. 

That's why it's a battle. The confederates felt the same way. The blues were less motivated then too, but like us they were the majority, and they prevailed, and I predict that today's blues will also prevail. But it shows what a fight we truly have on our hands. That just means that the 4T isn't over; not that we have already lost, or even that if we lose in 2022 we will have lost the battle.

But then, I have some faith that the Uranus Return to its degree position in the USA horoscope will still be significant, as it was so significant in the past. It marks the crisis climax, as in 1776, 1861 and 1944, to the degree, and marked the previous crises in the 1690s and 1608 too, and it is not due until 2027. And there's no reason to believe the saeculum is speeding up and can be prematurely cut off just because things still look dark. Mr. Howe doesn't think so. The archetypal 84-year length of a human life, the basis for both cycles, has not changed.

"The tides of man wait for no one".  We've moved into a new paradigm twice in the brief history of this republic, and both changes: the Industrial Age and the Information Age, altered the saeculum in subtle but observable ways. One of those changes is the intensity of the dominant Turnings.  In the case of 2Ts, communication that took days or weeks before the telegraph became same-day nationwide (and later worldwide).  The internet has put that model on steroids.  4Ts were expedited by the railroad and later by automobiles and airplanes.  Hypersonic weapons will move that to real time.  The intensity level merely follows suit.  Look at the last 2T as the first full model. So no, we can't be this way for another 6 to 9 years.  If this is a game of attrition, the neo-GOP will probably win long before we reach 2030.

I agree that the saeculum itself is driven by the human life, so adjustments will be take here and give there.  Was our last 1T longer?  I think it was, by a year or two.  I think we've just watched an extended 3T as well.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-18-2021, 07:46 AM)David Horn Wrote: "The tides of man wait for no one".  We've moved into a new paradigm twice in the brief history of this republic, and both changes: the Industrial Age and the Information Age, altered the saeculum in subtle but observable ways. One of those changes is the intensity of the dominant Turnings.  In the case of 2Ts, communication that took days or weeks before the telegraph became same-day nationwide (and later worldwide).  The internet has put that model on steroids.  4Ts were expedited by the railroad and later by automobiles and airplanes.  Hypersonic weapons will move that to real time.  The intensity level merely follows suit.  Look at the last 2T as the first full model. So no, we can't be this way for another 6 to 9 years.  If this is a game of attrition, the neo-GOP will probably win long before we reach 2030.

I agree that the saeculum itself is driven by the human life, so adjustments will be take here and give there.  Was our last 1T longer?  I think it was, by a year or two.  I think we've just watched an extended 3T as well.

On the other hand, machine guns, nukes, insurgent wars and proxy wars have cut down on crisis wars. The major powers have not become involved in such. Non violence has provided another way of change, intense still, but not in the way the Civil War and WW II were.

Yes, things have shifted, I'm just not sure you have the direction entirely right?