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Religion, Secularism and Homosexuality
#61
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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#62
Another comment.


Quote:http://www.waaytv.com/appnews/baptists-r...4407a.html

… "I have a theological description for someone like that pastor. He’s a nut,” Travis Collins, Senior Pastor at First Baptist Church in Huntsville, said.”…

… ""Someone's place in God's heart and their value in his eyes is not determined by their sexual behavior or any other behavior for that matter. And if that's okay with God, then it ought to be okay with me," he said....
...The Southern Baptist Convention is currently at its annual meeting in St.Louis. The denomination passed a resolution for the victims of the shooting that says in part: “We regard those affected by this tragedy as fellow image-bearers of God and our neighbors.””…
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
Reply
#63
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

That pastor is worse than a nut. He's a criminal.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#64
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?
The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
Reply
#65
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

That pastor is worse than a nut. He's a criminal.
The statement was criminal. If he broke any laws, he should be prosecuted.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
Reply
#66
(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?
The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#67
(06-15-2016, 02:09 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

That pastor is worse than a nut. He's a criminal.
The statement was criminal. If he broke any laws, he should be prosecuted.

I'm glad we agree on that much.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#68
(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?
The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.
 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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#69
(06-15-2016, 01:18 PM)Dan Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 10:00 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: In one of our Red enclaves here in Blue California there is a pastor who stated that he wished more gays were killed in Orlando this weekend.

Sick stuff!!!!

Sad

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...didnt-die/


He's actually the pastor of racially diverse church in the blue city of Sacramento.  Here's the church's webiste:

http://www.veritybaptist.com

"Following the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, a preacher stood at his pulpit Sunday night in Northern California and delivered an impassioned sermon praising the brutal massacre at a gay nightclub in Florida.

Pastor Roger Jimenez from Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento told his congregation that Christians “shouldn’t be mourning the death of 50 sodomites.”

“People say, like: ‘Well, aren’t you sad that 50 sodomites died?’ ” Jimenez said, referencing the initial death toll in Orlando, which authorities later clarified included 49 victims plus the gunman. “Here’s the problem with that. It’s like the equivalent of asking me — what if you asked me: ’Hey, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?’

“Um, no, I think that’s great. I think that helps society. You know, I think Orlando, Fla., is a little safer tonight.”


He added: “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job!” "

Members of the LGBT community are not allowed to join Verity Baptist or attend its services, according to the church’s “What We Believe” page. It states the church believes “sodomy” — referring to homosexuality — is “a sin and an abomination before God​ which God punishes with the death penalty.”

“I wish the government would round them all up, put them up against a firing wall, put a firing squad in front of them, and blow their brains out,” Jimenez said during his Sunday sermon, which Verity Baptist posted on its website under the title “the Christian response to the Orlando murders.”
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#70
(06-15-2016, 02:31 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote: I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?
The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.
 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.

It IS a step. Because some people like the pastor and Mateen feel that the penalty for doing "wrong" (e.g. homosexuality/sodomy) is or should be death. They simply ignore the idea that each person is created in the image of God, which should mitigate such doctrines.

The cure is to stop saying that being gay is wrong, in any way.

It may not be the right thing for you or me, but it may be the right thing for others. That is not moral relativism. It is moral decision, or moral intelligence.

Like Obama said, straight members of the army applauded gay members. We're all on one team.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#71
Our worldviews are in conflict. I have nothing new to add for now.
Will try later.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
Reply
#72
(06-15-2016, 02:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:31 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna is not against homosexuality?
The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.
 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.

It IS a step. Because some people like the pastor and Mateen feel that the penalty for doing "wrong" (e.g. homosexuality/sodomy) is or should be death. They simply ignore the idea that each person is created in the image of God, which should mitigate such doctrines.

The cure is to stop saying that being gay is wrong, in any way.

It may not be the right thing for you or me, but it may be the right thing for others.
That is not moral relativism. It is moral decision, or moral intelligence.

Like Obama said, straight members of the army applauded gay members. We're all on one team.
I agree. Same shoe does not fit every foot.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#73
(06-15-2016, 02:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:31 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna is not against homosexuality?
The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.
 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.

It IS a step. Because some people like the pastor and Mateen feel that the penalty for doing "wrong" (e.g. homosexuality/sodomy) is or should be death. They simply ignore the idea that each person is created in the image of God, which should mitigate such doctrines.

The cure is to stop saying that being gay is wrong, in any way.

It may not be the right thing for you or me, but it may be the right thing for others. That is not moral relativism. It is moral decision, or moral intelligence.

Like Obama said, straight members of the army applauded gay members. We're all on one team.

I did a quick scan and could not find anything about Barna’s position on gays. As I mentioned earlier , my primary  interest in barn.org is the polling they do and I have  spent hardly any time on reading any of their other work. 

Quote:https://www.barna.org/research/culture-m...2HqwJMrLEY
… "there appears to be a dichotomy at work among practicing Christians in America," Kinnaman continues. "Most believe that the Bible is the source of moral norms that transcend a person’s culture, and that those moral truths are absolute rather than relative to circumstances. Yet, at the same time, solid majorities ascribe to five of the six tenets of the new moral code. Such widespread cognitive dissonance—among both practicing Christians and Americans more generally—is another indicator of the cultural flux Barna has identified through the past two decades.”…

https://www.barna.org/about
… “Barna Group has carefully and strategically tracked the role of faith in America, developing one of the nation’s most comprehensive databases of spiritual indicators.”…
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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#74
(06-14-2016, 05:39 AM)radind Wrote:
(06-14-2016, 12:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: Beware of preparing to fight the last war

Armageddon? Are you saying that secularism's rise, and the defense of human rights against Christian claims that discrimination against gays should be allowed, will bring it on?

I don't know what you mean by 'Armageddon?'.
By the last war , I mean that you write  about concern for  the Christian majority  when there is no longer a Christian majority. There is a Christian minority with a secularist majority. 
My concern is that the secularist majority will not tolerate  Christians values.
I am for religious liberty and respect for all.

In Christian Mythology, the last war would be Armageddon, the war that highlights the end times before the return of Christ.

"Beware of fighting the last war" is a more secular bit of practical advice.  With technology changing, if one doesn't change tactics and doctrines to match new capabilities, one can get into big trouble.

Significant disconnect...
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#75
Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#76
(06-15-2016, 03:17 PM)radind Wrote: Our worldviews are in conflict. I have nothing new to add for now.
Will try later.

It's an interesting question: can worldviews really be "in conflict," and can that settle the matter? Once "worldviews are in conflict," no agreement can be reached and no facts or realities can be considered. It only matters if some statement is in accord with your worldview, or not. Values lock, as Bob puts it.

My worldview has shifted greatly at least a couple of times in my lifetime. I gained new experience and new realizations, which prompted me to shift and change my worldview. I am unlikely to shift back into my old ones, but new shifts are possible. I think one needs to be open to new discoveries, experiences, thoughts and evidence, and shift worldview accordingly; not be locked.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#77
(06-15-2016, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.
No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 
I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.
Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.
 … whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
Reply
#78
(06-15-2016, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

IMO the popular conception of "Satan" goes against the essence of standard Christian theology and is an expression of the Manichean impulse that constantly erupts out of Christianity. When you listen to what the typical Evangelical thinks about Satan they literally sound like a Manichean.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#79
(06-16-2016, 12:05 AM)radind Wrote: What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.
How would you explain the differing percentages in the results of their various polls? Where is the poll that says 10% have a Biblical view? I don't think it exists. You claim to have seen such a poll; I don't see it.
Quote:No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 
I'm sure they interviewed real folks, but polls results can differ depending on how the questions are framed, and what conclusions are drawn.
Quote:I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.
But you offer no refutation of my view. Views that say we are right and others are wrong foster hatred and division; not among all who believe them, but among some like that pastor Jimenez and Mateen.
Quote:Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.
The topic can never be exhausted. And "dialogue" can only happen when each person responds to the questions and challenges of the other, with genuine interest. But I will be ready to refute you whenever you claim that the "secularist majority" are about to oppress the "Christian minority." It just ain't so.

It is your right to hold your worldview, and I respect that. I may have held it nominally, as a child; but I mostly grew up as a devotee and fan of science and materialism, but with a love of Nature and Music. As an older teenager I threw over this view and moved into Oriental philosophy and mysticism, and then gradually embraced various Western hermetic and esoteric, holistic views, fully switching into this mode in my late 20s.

Myself, I prefer the worldview that says that some are enlightened, in various degrees, and some others are enlightened and don't clearly know it yet. I would put you in the second category. The truth is self-evident to all. It requires no Bible, no preacher, no guru to experience it, however much they might help, or hinder, that experience. It is always there, in everyone. The truth is found in all religions, to one degree or another. Jesus did not come as the only-begotten Son of God to sacrifice his life for our salvation, and to demand that we believe he is the Only Son or else continue to be damned sinners. He came to demonstrate eternal life as the essential truth of our being; that we are all God. He came, in his words, that we may have life, and have that life more abundantly.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#80
(06-16-2016, 07:26 AM)Odin Wrote:
(06-15-2016, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

IMO the popular conception of "Satan" goes against the essence of standard Christian theology and is an expression of the Manichean impulse that constantly erupts out of Christianity. When you listen to what the typical Evangelical thinks about Satan they literally sound like a Manichean.

"Satan" has become the scapegoat for every human foible from addictive behavior to genocide. We do not live in a perfect universe, and "Satan" allows for non-natural evil. One might not attribute Satan to hurricanes, forest fires, tsunamis, or volcanic eruptions, but one can compare evil people to "Satan". Sure,the world would be perfect were it not for "sin" for which "Satan" is given  much of the blame. Thus "Satan" tempted me to cheat on taxes, take from the till, deal in insider information, start a Ponzi scheme, deal drugs, or commit adultery.

If it were such a perfect world we would not have such horrors as the Atlantic slave trade, Stalinism, the Holocaust, child sexual abuse, and internet trolls.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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