Religion, Secularism and Homosexuality

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2016, 02:09 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

That pastor is worse than a nut. He's a criminal.

The statement was criminal. If he broke any laws, he should be prosecuted.

I'm glad we agree on that much.

[radind]

(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's a clear demonstration of how these mistaken, phony Christian (and Muslim) dogmas against gays can instill hate and lead to violence. That pastor should be jailed for inciting it. And he should get a long sentence. It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.

I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.

 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2016, 01:18 PM)Dan Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 10:00 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: In one of our Red enclaves here in Blue California there is a pastor who stated that he wished more gays were killed in Orlando this weekend.

Sick stuff!!!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...didnt-die/


He's actually the pastor of racially diverse church in the blue city of Sacramento.  Here's the church's webiste:

http://www.veritybaptist.com

"Following the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, a preacher stood at his pulpit Sunday night in Northern California and delivered an impassioned sermon praising the brutal massacre at a gay nightclub in Florida.

Pastor Roger Jimenez from Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento told his congregation that Christians “shouldn’t be mourning the death of 50 sodomites.”

“People say, like: ‘Well, aren’t you sad that 50 sodomites died?’ ” Jimenez said, referencing the initial death toll in Orlando, which authorities later clarified included 49 victims plus the gunman. “Here’s the problem with that. It’s like the equivalent of asking me — what if you asked me: ’Hey, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?’

“Um, no, I think that’s great. I think that helps society. You know, I think Orlando, Fla., is a little safer tonight.”


He added: “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job!” "

Members of the LGBT community are not allowed to join Verity Baptist or attend its services, according to the church’s “What We Believe” page. It states the church believes “sodomy” — referring to homosexuality — is “a sin and an abomination before God​ which God punishes with the death penalty.”

“I wish the government would round them all up, put them up against a firing wall, put a firing squad in front of them, and blow their brains out,” Jimenez said during his Sunday sermon, which Verity Baptist posted on its website under the title “the Christian response to the Orlando murders.”

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2016, 02:31 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:44 PM)radind Wrote: I agree that the so called 'pastor' is fundamentally flawed and his comments are evil.
These comments are in no way supported by mainstream Christians or by anyone with a Biblical worldview.

However, your comment about Barna is absolutely wrong and not founded on any facts.

Barna is not against homosexuality?

The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.

 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.

It IS a step. Because some people like the pastor and Mateen feel that the penalty for doing "wrong" (e.g. homosexuality/sodomy) is or should be death. They simply ignore the idea that each person is created in the image of God, which should mitigate such doctrines.

The cure is to stop saying that being gay is wrong, in any way.

It may not be the right thing for you or me, but it may be the right thing for others. That is not moral relativism. It is moral decision, or moral intelligence.

Like Obama said, straight members of the army applauded gay members. We're all on one team.

[radind]

Our worldviews are in conflict. I have nothing new to add for now.
Will try later.

[radind]

(06-15-2016, 02:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 02:31 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 02:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 02:07 PM)radind Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna is not against homosexuality?

The issue is your statement "It's not a long step from barna, to Verity Baptist Church, to Pulse nightclub June 5 2016.".
The statements from the phony 'pastor' are outrageous and EVIL.
No Christian with a Biblical worldview would make such a claim.
To associate anyone else with the Verity Baptist Church without any basis is terribly flawed.

Maybe I'm wrong and barna does not attribute moral prohibitions against homosexuality to a Biblical worldview. But you didn't answer the question. The issue is their view of gays and their behavior in relation to their religion.

If barna's view is that homosexuality is wrong, and Bible believers should agree, then that is part of the steps toward hate and murder.

It doesn't mean barna advocates hate and murder. It means that those views create the conditions for sick minds to take the next steps. As Pastor Jimenez did, and as Mateen acted it out.

It seems to me that your view has been, that religious believers should have the right to refuse service to gays getting married on the basis of conscience. And similar situations arise in regard to contraception and abortion. And you say, as I read you, that if religious believers are forced to serve gays, that is intolerance by seculars, and an attack on religious liberty by the dominant secular culture.

I understand the feeling of conscience. Sometimes the Obama administration has tried to accomodate it. But on balance I think allowing discrimination, and the idea that homosexuality is morally wrong, are steps toward intolerance and hate toward those who practice those lifestyles. That connection is clearly shown in Pastor Jimenez's remarks.

 I will  try to see what barna has posted.
I don't agree at all with  your view about the steps leading to hate and murder.
In my view each person is created in the image of God and there is no room or basis for hate.

It IS a step. Because some people like the pastor and Mateen feel that the penalty for doing "wrong" (e.g. homosexuality/sodomy) is or should be death. They simply ignore the idea that each person is created in the image of God, which should mitigate such doctrines.

The cure is to stop saying that being gay is wrong, in any way.

It may not be the right thing for you or me, but it may be the right thing for others. That is not moral relativism. It is moral decision, or moral intelligence.

Like Obama said, straight members of the army applauded gay members. We're all on one team.

I did a quick scan and could not find anything about Barna’s position on gays. As I mentioned earlier , my primary  interest in barn.org is the polling they do and I have  spent hardly any time on reading any of their other work. 

Quote:https://www.barna.org/research/culture-m...2HqwJMrLEY
… "there appears to be a dichotomy at work among practicing Christians in America," Kinnaman continues. "Most believe that the Bible is the source of moral norms that transcend a person’s culture, and that those moral truths are absolute rather than relative to circumstances. Yet, at the same time, solid majorities ascribe to five of the six tenets of the new moral code. Such widespread cognitive dissonance—among both practicing Christians and Americans more generally—is another indicator of the cultural flux Barna has identified through the past two decades.”…

https://www.barna.org/about
… “Barna Group has carefully and strategically tracked the role of faith in America, developing one of the nation’s most comprehensive databases of spiritual indicators.”…

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-14-2016, 05:39 AM)radind Wrote:

(06-14-2016, 12:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-13-2016, 12:36 PM)radind Wrote: Beware of preparing to fight the last war. 

Armageddon? Are you saying that secularism's rise, and the defense of human rights against Christian claims that discrimination against gays should be allowed, will bring it on?

I don't know what you mean by 'Armageddon?'.
By the last war , I mean that you write  about concern for  the Christian majority  when there is no longer a Christian majority. There is a Christian minority with a secularist majority. 
My concern is that the secularist majority will not tolerate  Christians values.
I am for religious liberty and respect for all.

In Christian Mythology, the last war would be Armageddon, the war that highlights the end times before the return of Christ.

"Beware of fighting the last war" is a more secular bit of practical advice.  With technology changing, if one doesn't change tactics and doctrines to match new capabilities, one can get into big trouble.

Significant disconnect...

[Eric the Green]

Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2016, 03:17 PM)radind Wrote: Our worldviews are in conflict. I have nothing new to add for now.
Will try later.

It's an interesting question: can worldviews really be "in conflict," and can that settle the matter? Once "worldviews are in conflict," no agreement can be reached and no facts or realities can be considered. It only matters if some statement is in accord with your worldview, or not. Values lock, as Bob puts it.

My worldview has shifted greatly at least a couple of times in my lifetime. I gained new experience and new realizations, which prompted me to shift and change my worldview. I am unlikely to shift back into my old ones, but new shifts are possible. I think one needs to be open to new discoveries, experiences, thoughts and evidence, and shift worldview accordingly; not be locked.

[radind]

(06-15-2016, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.
No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 
I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.
Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.

[Odin]

(06-15-2016, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

IMO the popular conception of "Satan" goes against the essence of standard Christian theology and is an expression of the Manichean impulse that constantly erupts out of Christianity. When you listen to what the typical Evangelical thinks about Satan they literally sound like a Manichean.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2016, 12:05 AM)radind Wrote: What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.

How would you explain the differing percentages in the results of their various polls? Where is the poll that says 10% have a Biblical view? I don't think it exists. You claim to have seen such a poll; I don't see it.

Quote:No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 

I'm sure they interviewed real folks, but polls results can differ depending on how the questions are framed, and what conclusions are drawn.

Quote:I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.

But you offer no refutation of my view. Views that say we are right and others are wrong foster hatred and division; not among all who believe them, but among some like that pastor Jimenez and Mateen.

Quote:Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.

The topic can never be exhausted. And "dialogue" can only happen when each person responds to the questions and challenges of the other, with genuine interest. But I will be ready to refute you whenever you claim that the "secularist majority" are about to oppress the "Christian minority." It just ain't so.

It is your right to hold your worldview, and I respect that. I may have held it nominally, as a child; but I mostly grew up as a devotee and fan of science and materialism, but with a love of Nature and Music. As an older teenager I threw over this view and moved into Oriental philosophy and mysticism, and then gradually embraced various Western hermetic and esoteric, holistic views, fully switching into this mode in my late 20s.

Myself, I prefer the worldview that says that some are enlightened, in various degrees, and some others are enlightened and don't clearly know it yet. I would put you in the second category. The truth is self-evident to all. It requires no Bible, no preacher, no guru to experience it, however much they might help, or hinder, that experience. It is always there, in everyone. The truth is found in all religions, to one degree or another. Jesus did not come as the only-begotten Son of God to sacrifice his life for our salvation, and to demand that we believe he is the Only Son or else continue to be damned sinners. He came to demonstrate eternal life as the essential truth of our being; that we are all God. He came, in his words, that we may have life, and have that life more abundantly.

[pbrower2a]

(06-16-2016, 07:26 AM)Odin Wrote:

(06-15-2016, 11:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Barna polls seem quite varied in their questions and in the percentages of responses to them. I don't see how you can say that Barna has proven that only 10% of Americans are Biblical Christians.

What I see in Barna is that their very fundamentalist view of Christianity colors their questions. They claim that "contradictions" are shown between some answers Christians give and the true Christian religion where there are none, except in their own minds.

Barna cannot be useful, because they assume such things as the existence of Satan as truly "Biblical," whereas in fact Satan is not a necessary part of the Christian religion, and there's no basis for assuming the existence of such a being. It is a symbol of human temptation, but they take it quite literally. They make other such claims as well. They claim that symbolic interpretations of the Bible are invalid. They assume that to be a Christian you must deny that other religions offer the same truths, and hold that Christianity is the only religion in which truth is found. Such views are intolerant and foster hatred. They live in the Dark Ages.

IMO the popular conception of "Satan" goes against the essence of standard Christian theology and is an expression of the Manichean impulse that constantly erupts out of Christianity. When you listen to what the typical Evangelical thinks about Satan they literally sound like a Manichean.

"Satan" has become the scapegoat for every human foible from addictive behavior to genocide. We do not live in a perfect universe, and "Satan" allows for non-natural evil. One might not attribute Satan to hurricanes, forest fires, tsunamis, or volcanic eruptions, but one can compare evil people to "Satan". Sure,the world would be perfect were it not for "sin" for which "Satan" is given  much of the blame. Thus "Satan" tempted me to cheat on taxes, take from the till, deal in insider information, start a Ponzi scheme, deal drugs, or commit adultery.

If it were such a perfect world we would not have such horrors as the Atlantic slave trade, Stalinism, the Holocaust, child sexual abuse, and internet trolls.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2016, 01:15 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 11:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 12:05 AM)radind Wrote: What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.

How would you explain the differing percentages in the results of their various polls? Where is the poll that says 10% have a Biblical view? I don't think it exists. You claim to have seen such a poll; I don't see it.

Quote:No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 

I'm sure they interviewed real folks, but polls results can differ depending on how the questions are framed, and what conclusions are drawn.

Quote:I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.

But you offer no refutation of my view. Views that say we are right and others are wrong foster hatred and division; not among all who believe them, but among some like that pastor Jimenez and Mateen.

Quote:Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.

The topic can never be exhausted. And "dialogue" can only happen when each person responds to the questions and challenges of the other, with genuine interest. But I will be ready to refute you whenever you claim that the "secularist majority" are about to oppress the "Christian minority." It just ain't so.

It is your right to hold your worldview, and I respect that. I may have held it nominally, as a child; but I mostly grew up as a devotee and fan of science and materialism, but with a love of Nature and Music. As an older teenager I threw over this view and moved into Oriental philosophy and mysticism, and then gradually embraced various Western hermetic and esoteric, holistic views, fully switching into this mode in my late 20s.

Myself, I prefer the worldview that says that some are enlightened, in various degrees, and some others are enlightened and don't clearly know it yet. I would put you in the second category. The truth is self-evident to all. It requires no Bible, no preacher, no guru to experience it, however much they might help, or hinder, that experience. It is always there, in everyone. The truth is found in all religions, to one degree or another. Jesus did not come as the only-begotten Son of God to sacrifice his life for our salvation, and to demand that we believe he is the Only Son or else continue to be damned sinners. He came to demonstrate eternal life as the essential truth of our being; that we are all God. He came, in his words, that we may have life, and have that life more abundantly.

Bingo. Just as i thought. He hates materialism because it is a rebellion against his parents generation. I suppose with certain things I say reminds him of his GI parents and their generation and probably the Lost generation too. Kinser must make him shiver even more as kinser is even more of a materialist than I am.

You just love to read things into what I say that aren't there.

[radind]

(06-16-2016, 01:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 01:15 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 11:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 12:05 AM)radind Wrote: What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.

How would you explain the differing percentages in the results of their various polls? Where is the poll that says 10% have a Biblical view? I don't think it exists. You claim to have seen such a poll; I don't see it.

Quote:No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 

I'm sure they interviewed real folks, but polls results can differ depending on how the questions are framed, and what conclusions are drawn.

Quote:I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.

But you offer no refutation of my view. Views that say we are right and others are wrong foster hatred and division; not among all who believe them, but among some like that pastor Jimenez and Mateen.

Quote:Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.

The topic can never be exhausted. And "dialogue" can only happen when each person responds to the questions and challenges of the other, with genuine interest. But I will be ready to refute you whenever you claim that the "secularist majority" are about to oppress the "Christian minority." It just ain't so.

It is your right to hold your worldview, and I respect that. I may have held it nominally, as a child; but I mostly grew up as a devotee and fan of science and materialism, but with a love of Nature and Music. As an older teenager I threw over this view and moved into Oriental philosophy and mysticism, and then gradually embraced various Western hermetic and esoteric, holistic views, fully switching into this mode in my late 20s.

Myself, I prefer the worldview that says that some are enlightened, in various degrees, and some others are enlightened and don't clearly know it yet. I would put you in the second category. The truth is self-evident to all. It requires no Bible, no preacher, no guru to experience it, however much they might help, or hinder, that experience. It is always there, in everyone. The truth is found in all religions, to one degree or another. Jesus did not come as the only-begotten Son of God to sacrifice his life for our salvation, and to demand that we believe he is the Only Son or else continue to be damned sinners. He came to demonstrate eternal life as the essential truth of our being; that we are all God. He came, in his words, that we may have life, and have that life more abundantly.

Bingo. Just as i thought. He hates materialism because it is a rebellion against his parents generation. I suppose with certain things I say reminds him of his GI parents and their generation and probably the Lost generation too. Kinser must make him shiver even more as kinser is even more of a materialist than I am.

You just love to read things into what I say that aren't there.

I am done with my comments on this topic. I see no productive dialogue and will move to other topics.

Just for the record, since you dismiss the credibility of barna.org,this is from March 9, 2009.

Quote:https://www.barna.org/barna-update/trans...2M_11c_ZGI

“The report from Barna compared current results to the outcomes from a similar survey the company conducted in 1995, 2000 and 2005.
Defining Terms
For the purposes of the survey, a “biblical worldview” was defined as believing that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today. In the research, anyone who held all of those beliefs was said to have a biblical worldview.
National Results
Overall, the current research revealed that only 9% of all American adults have a biblical worldview. Among the sixty subgroups of respondents that the survey explored was one defined by those who said they have made a personal to commitment to Jesus Christ that is important in their life today and that they are certain that they will go to Heaven after they die only because they confessed their sins and accepted Christ as their savior. Labeled “born again Christians,” the study discovered that they were twice as likely as the average adult to possess a biblical worldview. However, that meant that even among born again Christians, less than one out of every five (19%) had such an outlook on life.
The same questions were asked of respondents in national surveys by Barna in 1995, 2000 and 2005. The results indicate that the percentage of adults with a biblical worldview, as defined above, has remained unchanged for more than a decade. The numbers show that 7% had such a worldview in 1995, compared to 10% in 2000, 11% in 2005, and 9% now. Even among born again adults, the statistics have remained flat: 18% in 1995, 22% in 2000, 21% in 2005, and 19% today.
Components of Worldview Thinking
Varying numbers of Americans embrace the different aspects of biblical worldview thinking. The survey found that:

• One-third of all adults (34%) believe that moral truth is absolute and unaffected by the circumstances. Slightly less than half of the born again adults (46%) believe in absolute moral truth.
  

• Half of all adults firmly believe that the Bible is accurate in all the principles it teaches. That proportion includes the four-fifths of born again adults (79%) who concur.
  

• Just one-quarter of adults (27%) are convinced that Satan is a real force. Even a minority of born again adults (40%) adopt that perspective.
  

• Similarly, only one-quarter of adults (28%) believe that it is impossible for someone to earn their way into Heaven through good behavior. Not quite half of all born again Christians (47%) strongly reject the notion of earning salvation through their deeds.
  

• A minority of American adults (40%) are persuaded that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life while He was on earth. Slightly less than two-thirds of the born again segment (62%) strongly believes that He was sinless.
  

• Seven out of ten adults (70%) say that God is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe who still rules it today. That includes the 93% of born again adults who hold that conviction.
  

Differences among Demographic Segments
The research data showed that one pattern emerged loud and clear: young adults rarely possess a biblical worldview. The current study found that less than one-half of one percent of adults in the Mosaic generation – i.e., those aged 18 to 23 – have a biblical worldview, compared to about one out of every nine older adults.
Other groups that possess a below average likelihood of having a biblical worldview included people who describe themselves as liberal on social and political matters (also less than one-half of one percent); Catholics (2%); Democrats (4%) and residents of the Northeast (4%).”…
 

[Eric the Green]

Yes I remember that barna article; I couldn't find it more-recently. Obviously it means nothing except the % of respondents who agree with barna's version of a Biblical worldview, which is quite antiquated.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2016, 11:33 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 01:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 01:15 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 11:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 12:05 AM)radind Wrote: What I have seen from barn.org is 3 polls conducted over a period of ~ 20 years with the result that the percentage in the USA with a Biblical worldview is ~ 10%.

How would you explain the differing percentages in the results of their various polls? Where is the poll that says 10% have a Biblical view? I don't think it exists. You claim to have seen such a poll; I don't see it.

Quote:No poll from anyone provides proof. One can accept the information in the polls or not. You clearly do not accept the barna results. 

I'm sure they interviewed real folks, but polls results can differ depending on how the questions are framed, and what conclusions are drawn.

Quote:I do not agree with your claims that such views foster hatred.

But you offer no refutation of my view. Views that say we are right and others are wrong foster hatred and division; not among all who believe them, but among some like that pastor Jimenez and Mateen.

Quote:Since our worldviews are in conflict, it appears that we have exhausted this topic.

The topic can never be exhausted. And "dialogue" can only happen when each person responds to the questions and challenges of the other, with genuine interest. But I will be ready to refute you whenever you claim that the "secularist majority" are about to oppress the "Christian minority." It just ain't so.

It is your right to hold your worldview, and I respect that. I may have held it nominally, as a child; but I mostly grew up as a devotee and fan of science and materialism, but with a love of Nature and Music. As an older teenager I threw over this view and moved into Oriental philosophy and mysticism, and then gradually embraced various Western hermetic and esoteric, holistic views, fully switching into this mode in my late 20s.

Myself, I prefer the worldview that says that some are enlightened, in various degrees, and some others are enlightened and don't clearly know it yet. I would put you in the second category. The truth is self-evident to all. It requires no Bible, no preacher, no guru to experience it, however much they might help, or hinder, that experience. It is always there, in everyone. The truth is found in all religions, to one degree or another. Jesus did not come as the only-begotten Son of God to sacrifice his life for our salvation, and to demand that we believe he is the Only Son or else continue to be damned sinners. He came to demonstrate eternal life as the essential truth of our being; that we are all God. He came, in his words, that we may have life, and have that life more abundantly.

Bingo. Just as i thought. He hates materialism because it is a rebellion against his parents generation. I suppose with certain things I say reminds him of his GI parents and their generation and probably the Lost generation too. Kinser must make him shiver even more as kinser is even more of a materialist than I am.

You just love to read things into what I say that aren't there.

It is a type of rebellion though. It was the world view before the consciousness revolution. It was what you first experienced till you struck out on your own and developed your own view of the world around you and abandoned some ideas that you first experienced. Ok, if you do not think that is true then why are you so against materialism? You mention it all the time as if you despise it. Which is what led me to wonder if it is to do with your early years before the boomer rebellion against the materialistic worldview of the GI's. A rebellion is thinking and acting differently than the parental generation after all. It is disagreement.

It was during the consciousness revolution, though on my own, that I "experienced" something and had an awakening that affected my worldview. Before that it was not what I experienced, but what I absorbed and assumed from what was available to my mind. It was always my own ideas. I didn't "strike out" on my own; it was a clearer experience of reality that changed my worldview.

I tend to be against materialism, but recognize it as part of human experience and my experience. I now look on it as part of the philosophers wheel. It is a tendency within our being; the lower chakras or the roots of the tree of life. In moderation it has its place.

Materialism is the dominant philosophy or default worldview of educated people today. As such it is the source of problems and limitations today which we need to see beyond in order to progress. We need now to see the world as alive, not as solid billliard balls knocking each other around. Materialism taken to its logical extreme is a philosophy of death. It reduces life to mechanics and sees the world as composed of solid, separate things. It reduces ourselves and life to objects for our use, and denies free will, mystery and miracles.

This is NOT talking as if I "despise materialism." It is just simply and plainly, the facts of the matter, so to speak. Materialism is what it is; you can't soft-pedal it or cover up for it. You do have a tendency to talk in an insulting way, and draw false conclusions that justify your own anger.

[Eric the Green]

(06-17-2016, 06:28 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-17-2016, 06:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 11:33 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 01:54 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2016, 01:15 PM)taramarie Wrote: Bingo. Just as i thought. He hates materialism because it is a rebellion against his parents generation. I suppose with certain things I say reminds him of his GI parents and their generation and probably the Lost generation too. Kinser must make him shiver even more as kinser is even more of a materialist than I am.

You just love to read things into what I say that aren't there.

It is a type of rebellion though. It was the world view before the consciousness revolution. It was what you first experienced till you struck out on your own and developed your own view of the world around you and abandoned some ideas that you first experienced. Ok, if you do not think that is true then why are you so against materialism? You mention it all the time as if you despise it. Which is what led me to wonder if it is to do with your early years before the boomer rebellion against the materialistic worldview of the GI's. A rebellion is thinking and acting differently than the parental generation after all. It is disagreement.

It was during the consciousness revolution, though on my own, that I "experienced" something and had an awakening that affected my worldview. Before that it was not what I experienced, but what I absorbed and assumed from what was available to my mind. It was always my own ideas. I didn't "strike out" on my own; it was a clearer experience of reality that changed my worldview.

I tend to be against materialism, but recognize it as part of human experience and my experience. I now look on it as part of the philosophers wheel. It is a tendency within our being; the lower chakras or the roots of the tree of life. In moderation it has its place.

Materialism is the dominant philosophy or default worldview of educated people today. As such it is the source of problems and limitations today which we need to see beyond in order to progress. We need now to see the world as alive, not as solid billliard balls knocking each other around. Materialism taken to its logical extreme is a philosophy of death. It reduces life to mechanics and sees the world as composed of solid, separate things. It reduces ourselves and life to objects for our use, and denies free will, mystery and miracles.

This is NOT talking as if I "despise materialism." It is just simply and plainly, the facts of the matter, so to speak. Materialism is what it is; you can't soft-pedal it or cover up for it. You do have a tendency to talk in an insulting way, and draw false conclusions that justify your own anger.

How is it a source of our problems? This was not to justify anger. This was to try to understand you.

The answer to that is in the above. We need to expand consciousness and life, in ourselves, others and the world, and see it as sacred and alive, in order to keep it alive. A philosophy of death is obviously an obstacle to all that. There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in that philosophy. Our minds need to be open to it, so all the resources of the spirit are available to us. Extreme materialism cuts people off from their very selves; their very spirit. Even my signature line answers your question. We need to be able to see a better day, and keep the spirit alive.

[Anthony '58]

The fundies are so desperate in their bid to remain relevant, and so deathly afraid of the Muslims to the exclusion if everything/everyone else, that they are willing to let any enemy of same come in under their leaky umbrella - first the "Christ-killers" (the Jews) in the wake of 9/11, now the "abominable" gays - who received a sympathetic visit from none other than Tim Tebow this week.

It is like when, in their last, dire days, the Nazis started classifying just about anyone not Jewish or black as passably "Aryan."