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09-28-2021, 04:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2021, 07:47 PM by AspieMillennial.)
Millennial Trad Catholics are rebelling against Millennial norms. Trad Caths are becoming more of a trend. They are turning to stern ascetic spirituality and the Latin Masses. The difference though is they want the Benedict Option and separation from mainstream society. They see the mainstream atheistic or irreligious people as the chaff being separated from the wheat and see themselves as like the Saints in a society of Noah. Their goal is going back to pre Vatican 2 and don't care so much about appealing to the majority as they do following the old traditions and being strict on the doctrine. They don't see much of a point in trying to appeal to unbelievers because the unbelievers have been hostile. .
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(09-28-2021, 04:11 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Millennial Trad Catholics are rebelling against Millennial norms. Trad Caths are becoming more of a trend. They are turning to stern ascetic spirituality and the Latin Masses. The difference though is they want the Benedict Option and separation from mainstream society. They see the mainstream atheistic or irreligious people as the chaff being separated from the wheat and see themselves as like the Saints in a society of Noah. Their goal is going back to pre Vatican 2 and don't care so much about appealing to the majority as they do following the old traditions and being strict on the doctrine. They don't see much of a point in trying to appeal to unbelievers because the unbelievers have been hostile. .
This is 1T behavior a bit early. Yes, the 1T will be far too austere for everyone not predisoposed to austerity already. You should fit in well, but be gobsmacked when the 2T arrives in earnest.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
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09-29-2021, 01:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2021, 01:20 PM by Eric the Green.)
(09-29-2021, 11:26 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
This traditional revivalism has been a chief feature of Awakenings/2Ts, rather than 4Ts which tend to move toward the secular and the institutional, according to the authors of T4T, and this picture seems quite correct historically. The previous example of this came from fundamentalist Protestants and not so much from Catholics, and was known as the religious right or the moral majority, and helped to sponsor neoliberalism-- the cause of our current plight. But I would not look for any such revivalism until the late 2050s or 2060s, if it happens again, and not during the current 4T.
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(09-29-2021, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (09-29-2021, 11:26 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
This traditional revivalism has been a chief feature of Awakenings/2Ts, rather than 4Ts which tend to move toward the secular and the institutional, according to the authors of T4T, and this picture seems quite correct historically. The previous example of this came from fundamentalist Protestants and not so much from Catholics, and was known as the religious right or the moral majority, and helped to sponsor neoliberalism-- the cause of our current plight. But I would not look for any such revivalism until the late 2050s or 2060s, if it happens again, and not during the current 4T.
4Ts are all about atheism and agnosticism. It's about becoming things like Communists or Nazis and supporting huge government. When does the anti religious attitude drop? I don't care about wanting neoliberalism, I'm just tired of the nihilist culture and atheist culture.
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(09-29-2021, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (09-29-2021, 11:26 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
This traditional revivalism has been a chief feature of Awakenings/2Ts, rather than 4Ts which tend to move toward the secular and the institutional, according to the authors of T4T, and this picture seems quite correct historically. The previous example of this came from fundamentalist Protestants and not so much from Catholics, and was known as the religious right or the moral majority, and helped to sponsor neoliberalism-- the cause of our current plight. But I would not look for any such revivalism until the late 2050s or 2060s, if it happens again, and not during the current 4T.
What about minority movements against majority secularism? Or subcultures against the secularist nihilist majority?
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(09-29-2021, 01:43 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (09-29-2021, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (09-29-2021, 11:26 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
This traditional revivalism has been a chief feature of Awakenings/2Ts, rather than 4Ts which tend to move toward the secular and the institutional, according to the authors of T4T, and this picture seems quite correct historically. The previous example of this came from fundamentalist Protestants and not so much from Catholics, and was known as the religious right or the moral majority, and helped to sponsor neoliberalism-- the cause of our current plight. But I would not look for any such revivalism until the late 2050s or 2060s, if it happens again, and not during the current 4T.
What about minority movements against majority secularism? Or subcultures against the secularist nihilist majority?
Secularism better respects minority views, even in religion, than does fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Muslims cannot understand Fundamentalist Christians even if they have similar psychological profiles. Secularism is tolerant unless it has a Marxist-Leninist bent.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(09-29-2021, 05:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (09-29-2021, 01:43 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (09-29-2021, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (09-29-2021, 11:26 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
This traditional revivalism has been a chief feature of Awakenings/2Ts, rather than 4Ts which tend to move toward the secular and the institutional, according to the authors of T4T, and this picture seems quite correct historically. The previous example of this came from fundamentalist Protestants and not so much from Catholics, and was known as the religious right or the moral majority, and helped to sponsor neoliberalism-- the cause of our current plight. But I would not look for any such revivalism until the late 2050s or 2060s, if it happens again, and not during the current 4T.
What about minority movements against majority secularism? Or subcultures against the secularist nihilist majority?
Secularism better respects minority views, even in religion, than does fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Muslims cannot understand Fundamentalist Christians even if they have similar psychological profiles. Secularism is tolerant unless it has a Marxist-Leninist bent.
Today's Irreligiousness does have a Marxist-Leninist bent. They don't tolerate Christian views.
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(09-29-2021, 08:42 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (09-29-2021, 05:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Secularism better respects minority views, even in religion, than does fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Muslims cannot understand Fundamentalist Christians even if they have similar psychological profiles. Secularism is tolerant unless it has a Marxist-Leninist bent.
Today's Irreligiousness does have a Marxist-Leninist bent. They don't tolerate Christian views.
Why does being open minded portend Marxist-Leninism? I see the Fundsamentalist Christians as truly dogmatic, so yes, any group not kowtowing to that dogma may be considered oppositinal. So what?
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(09-30-2021, 10:29 AM)David Horn Wrote: (09-29-2021, 08:42 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (09-29-2021, 05:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Secularism better respects minority views, even in religion, than does fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Muslims cannot understand Fundamentalist Christians even if they have similar psychological profiles. Secularism is tolerant unless it has a Marxist-Leninist bent.
Today's Irreligiousness does have a Marxist-Leninist bent. They don't tolerate Christian views.
Why does being open minded portend Marxist-Leninism? I see the Fundsamentalist Christians as truly dogmatic, so yes, any group not kowtowing to that dogma may be considered oppositinal. So what?
Maybe in the older generation but in mine the secularists are the big dogmatic ones. They are the ones trying to be pushy. Religious people in my generation are the victims and the secularists are the perpetrators.
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(09-30-2021, 10:29 AM)David Horn Wrote: (09-29-2021, 08:42 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (09-29-2021, 05:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Secularism better respects minority views, even in religion, than does fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Muslims cannot understand Fundamentalist Christians even if they have similar psychological profiles. Secularism is tolerant unless it has a Marxist-Leninist bent.
Today's Irreligiousness does have a Marxist-Leninist bent. They don't tolerate Christian views.
Why does being open minded portend Marxist-Leninism? I see the Fundamentalist Christians as truly dogmatic, so yes, any group not kowtowing to that dogma may be considered oppositional. So what?
If anything, I see Marxist-Leninists as extremely close-minded and intolerant, at least before 1989. The question is whether people claiming the Marxist-Leninist heritage have scrapped the support for dictatorships that exclude any dissent whether internal or external. China and Vietnam have scrapped Marxism-Leninism-Maoism as an economic rationale while maintaining the dictatorships in their countries. North Korea is Hell, and the current boss of the Communist Party of Cuba may find himself choosing whether to be another Gorbachev or another Ceausescu. Laos is almost as irrelevant as a country can be on the world scene.
There still is a Communist Party of the USA, and it claims to stand for political pluralism and the Bill of Rights. It does not field candidates and has typically supported Democrats while excoriating Republicans. It welcomes people of faith, reinterpreting a badly-written paragraph that was long the rationale for official atheism among Marxism-Leninism. (The person who believes in nothing is much more suspect than someone who has disagreements on theology unless those disagreements have the tag "Believe it or burn in Hell". Of course, Donald Trump leaves much to excoriate even if one is not a Marxist of any kind. Then again, I cannot attach Donald Trump to any moral tradition.
(really to Aspie Millennial):
I recognize well that secularism has no satisfying promise of any purpose in life that outlasts life. Religion can offer an Afterlife that costs the believer nothing. Whether God exists or does not, and what His Nature is is a theological speculation that usually gravitates to one's heritage. My view is heretical in any religious tradition.
First, one must ask the question "What is God?" The only reason for me to believe in any Divine Presence is that the universe makes sense (whoops -- that makes miracles and special rescues by God nearly impossible), and it takes only one Entity to decide the core laws of physics, mathematics, and the dialectic. A universe in which 2+8 is 11 one day and 9 the next is absurd. Different rules in the binding curve of energy might make iron rare (and life on a rocky planet like the Earth impossible) or make arsenic common (arrgh!), which it would be if germanium were the low point of binding energy. It is a good thing for life on our planet that beryllium-8 is terribly unstable, as (1) beryllium is highly toxic, and (2) that would cause the Sun to have started fusing carbon by now, in which case the Earth would already be a molten mass of silicates and metals. The universe works by predictable rules of logic that most of us understand well. We exist, therefore God? I don't know if that is as truthful as Cogito ergo sum by Descartes, but Exigo ergo exigit Deus is little less pithy.
(If you want my view on the hereafter... I may be saying more of myself than of God, but that is how most people do things anyway. Clear commandments inherent in mass self-interest exist that make life as secure as it can be and prosperity and progress possible. Do evil and you will be judged harshly; you may face some harsh purification of your vices so that you can like Heaven. Be evil enough, and you are damned. God is powerful enough to select what rules by which He judges the recently-departed... so if you were a Nazi war criminal you will find that God is Jewish. If you bombed African-American churches while a Ku Kluxist you risk finding that God is African Methodist Episcopalian. If you were one of the Serb butchers of Bosnian Muslims you will find that God is Allah and Muhammad is His most important Prophet. A benign God is no gangster... and He has no use for gangsters in His Domain. As for some other vices... I don't want to be where drunks and addicts stumble around me as the only sober soul, let alone among terrorists, rapists, or thieves.
OK, anyone can be an amateur journalist, historian, or even theologian and perhaps I do reasonably well at any one of the three, at least some of the time. But that might be "reasonably well" by standards of a century ago and not now.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(09-29-2021, 01:43 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (09-29-2021, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (09-29-2021, 11:26 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: Any examples we can link from prior saecula? Was religious uptake popular in prior 4T->1T transitions? I'd expect such behaviour only during the 4T itself with society being in collapse-mode.
This traditional revivalism has been a chief feature of Awakenings/2Ts, rather than 4Ts which tend to move toward the secular and the institutional, according to the authors of T4T, and this picture seems quite correct historically. The previous example of this came from fundamentalist Protestants and not so much from Catholics, and was known as the religious right or the moral majority, and helped to sponsor neoliberalism-- the cause of our current plight. But I would not look for any such revivalism until the late 2050s or 2060s, if it happens again, and not during the current 4T.
What about minority movements against majority secularism? Or subcultures against the secularist nihilist majority?
Sure; turnings are not monolithic; there's always a variety of trends and movements going on; It's just a question of degree
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