Why Does Democracy Need to be Defended?

[AspieMillennial]

Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

[pbrower2a]

(09-26-2021, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

...because anything undemocratic eventually becomes irresponsible, and the elite deputized to be the commanders turn their power to the service of the usual expressions of power: sybaritic indulgence for themselves, extreme deprivation for everyone else, and a brutal order of command. It never goes that way by design, but irresponsible people with absolute power invariably do that.

Ideology is not the cure. Bolsheviks could become just as exploitative and just as destructive of the human spirit as the slave-owning planters of the antebellum South. Oppression by a pretorian regime is just horrible in Pakistan as in Chile even if the soldiers are the ostensible servants of the People.

We cannot presume the certainty of the responsible behavior of those who get absolute power and make promises to act fairly and responsibly. We need checks and balances that are not inherently democratic but are necessary to have a responsible leadership. 

"It is a Republic, if you can keep it", said Benjamin Franklin in the 1780's... but it is the responsibility of the People to make demands upon  elected leaders who can lose the next election if they fail to respond appropriately. In practice, many ostensible Republics have gone bad  because somebody arrogated 'emergency powers' and either kept the emergency intact indefinitely through incompetence or design or maintained those powers after the emergency was over, because people fell for some demagogue who promised everything to everybody without considering that such entails irreconcilable contradictions, or because rich and powerful people bought the politicians.  It may still be a republic because there is no hereditary monarch, but it should be unmistakably clear that Nicholas II would have been far better than Josef Stalin. Elections can be rigged, and opposition can be annihilated.

We can't depend upon words like "republic" and "elections". Enough Americans fell for Donald Trump in 2016 that with a quirk of our political system he became President and was in a position to abuse the powers of the Presidency. You can attribute that to the lack of sophistication and astuteness of nearly half the American electorate; that is something that current and future leaders will need to address before the next ruthless demagogue has a chance of winning a Presidential election. We need to separate politics from economic power so that we do not have a plutocracy that allows wealth and bureaucratic power to become the bases of politics, in which government of the rich-and-powerful, by the rich-and-powerful, and for the rich-and-powerful entrenches itself once and for all.

[Eric the Green]

(09-26-2021, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

If you support imposing your religion on the rest of us, and that's all you care about, then I suppose not. 

But then, why speak of a rationale, since your views are so irrational?

[tg63]

well, I engage in discussions with those who hold opposing positions to mine in the hopes that I might learn something

[AspieMillennial]

(09-28-2021, 11:19 AM)tg63 Wrote: well, I engage in discussions with those who hold opposing positions to mine in the hopes that I might learn something

They don't listen to my views though.

[AspieMillennial]

(09-28-2021, 05:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-26-2021, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

If you support imposing your religion on the rest of us, and that's all you care about, then I suppose not. 

But then, why speak of a rationale, since your views are so irrational?

They impose their SJW values on me so I think fair is fair.

[pbrower2a]

(09-28-2021, 03:41 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 11:19 AM)tg63 Wrote: well, I engage in discussions with those who hold opposing positions to mine in the hopes that I might learn something

They don't listen to my views though.

I do listen. I find your views all too often terribly flawed.

There are reasons for religion.The question is whether they apply to one.

1. It can improve character. Religion can repudiate selfishness, excess, cruelty, corruption, and recklessness. Some divines are models of wisdom and morality. Of course there's a huge difference between Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Jimmy Swaggart. Most of the televangelists are snakes in suits intent on fleecing believers for their sybaritic excesses. Maybe the parish priest or local pastor has no chance of doing anything like that and would not accept such a chance if offered it.

2. Clergy are often the best-educated people in the community on the philosophical realities that undergird life. Who are you going to ask the question of what the meaning of life is? A physician? He probably lacks the time. A CPA or an engineer? Too narrowly specialized, I suppose. A K-12 teacher? Most likely the teacher is concerned more about educational basics than the highly-refined realities of life. A psychologist? The psychologist will be looking for traits to match you with the DMS-V. 

3. It's a distraction from some very bad behavior, like addictive behaviors. Better Jesus than porn, I suppose.

4. It might connect one to a needful network and a desirable structure in personal life.

5. You may find People of Faith much more reliable than people who believe only in consumerism, hedonism, career advancement, and entertainment.

6. Religious bodies may be convenient places for meeting people with whom you wish to share some life.

If you live in certain communities it might be wise to be a religious person or at least pretend to be one. Do you like that community?

[pbrower2a]

(09-28-2021, 03:42 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 05:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-26-2021, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

If you support imposing your religion on the rest of us, and that's all you care about, then I suppose not. 

But then, why speak of a rationale, since your views are so irrational?

They impose their SJW values on me so I think fair is fair.

Jesus was a Social Justice Warrior. He opposed the corruption. hypocrisy, and inequity of His time. I could imagine Him coming back to see what people have done with His Ministry, and much of it isn't good.If you claim to be a Christian and still support Donald Trump, then you support someone that I best describe as someone of a wide variety of deep sins. You probably just saw how I saw a large number of televangelists. The Prosperity Gospel is a hideous fraud utterly inconsistent with Jesus' Teaching; I look at the Sermon on the Mount (which is the essence of Christianity, and you can throw out practically the rest of the New Testament as fluff) and see a message that the purpose of a Christian is to bring dignity to those in hardship.

Knocking down the tables of the money-changers and driving the cattle out of the Temple are clearly deeds of a Social Justice Warrior.

[AspieMillennial]

(09-28-2021, 09:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 03:42 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 05:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-26-2021, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

If you support imposing your religion on the rest of us, and that's all you care about, then I suppose not. 

But then, why speak of a rationale, since your views are so irrational?

They impose their SJW values on me so I think fair is fair.

Jesus was a Social Justice Warrior. He opposed the corruption. hypocrisy, and inequity of His time. I could imagine Him coming back to see what people have done with His Ministry, and much of it isn't good.If you claim to be a Christian and still support Donald Trump, then you support someone that I best describe as someone of a wide variety of deep sins. You probably just saw how I saw a large number of televangelists. The Prosperity Gospel is a hideous fraud utterly inconsistent with Jesus' Teaching; I look at the Sermon on the Mount (which is the essence of Christianity, and you can throw out practically the rest of the New Testament as fluff) and see a message that the purpose of a Christian is to bring dignity to those in hardship.

Knocking down the tables of the money-changers and driving the cattle out of the Temple are clearly deeds of a Social Justice Warrior.

I'm not for prosperity gospel. My focus is more on social conservatism, not fiscal. SJWS focus on things like having pride parades on Blues Clues, wanting to ban religion, saying guns are bad, shouting at people for "cultural appropriation" or celebrating porn or abortions. They don't care about the working class either unless you mean poor barista with a prestigious degree and shares the same views as them.

[pbrower2a]

(09-28-2021, 09:45 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 09:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Jesus was a Social Justice Warrior. He opposed the corruption. hypocrisy, and inequity of His time. I could imagine Him coming back to see what people have done with His Ministry, and much of it isn't good.If you claim to be a Christian and still support Donald Trump, then you support someone that I best describe as someone of a wide variety of deep sins. You probably just saw how I saw a large number of televangelists. The Prosperity Gospel is a hideous fraud utterly inconsistent with Jesus' Teaching; I look at the Sermon on the Mount (which is the essence of Christianity, and you can throw out practically the rest of the New Testament as fluff) and see a message that the purpose of a Christian is to bring dignity to those in hardship.

Knocking down the tables of the money-changers and driving the cattle out of the Temple are clearly deeds of a Social Justice Warrior.

I'm not for prosperity gospel.  My focus is more on social conservatism, not fiscal. SJWS focus on things like having pride parades on Blues Clues, wanting to ban religion, saying guns are bad, shouting at people for "cultural appropriation" or celebrating porn or abortions. They don't care about the working class either unless you mean poor barista with a prestigious degree and shares the same views as them.

Good on the Prosperity Gospel. It's more of a confidence game than any valid expression of Judeo-Christian values. The Bible is not a guide to getting rich quick.

Most people are mixtures of liberal and conservative values. I have no problem with a LGBT Pride parade. If you don't want to see it, then stay away from it. This is like saying that if you don't like to see automobile graveyards, then stay away from them. I know of nobody who wants to ban religion or any specific religion, although a religious cult that would do a human sacrifice,  disseminate Sarin gas upon unsuspecting people,  or turn a jetliner into a missile to crash it into tall buildings needs be broken up for much the same reason that any criminal conspiracy deserves to be liquidated. OK, guns really are bad, whether one is a motel clerk facing an armed robber or"Bambi" facing a hunter... there are countries that honor civil liberties well without offering any "gun rights".

Cultural appropriation? We all do it. Lasagna, chimichangas, kielbasa, gyros, curry anything, and dim sum are all cultural appropriation. Got a bonsai tree or a Japanese-style print? Likewise.  Did you recently listen to a Puccini or Wagner opera? Likewise. Most of us pick and choose what it means to be an American by culture.

Porn is pitiable, and most abortions involve someone in trouble because of the pregnancy. If a ten-year-old girl is pregnant, then she needs an abortion. If the abortion would protect the life of the mother, then such is ethically mandatory.

And, yes, Most Americans not in the working class disregard or devalue it. It is unfortunate, but the economic elites wax fattest when they can sweat working people the most. If you think that working-class culture is so wonderful, just remember that the working class is potentially as bigoted as any, and that many people are working class because they live in 'loser' cultures that deprecate learning and promote superstition. I am not convinced of the superiority of any class. Perhaps because of the character of the regime (Nazi Germany is the prime example) the working class  is less culpable of receiving privileges from the regime or doing the dirty work. Working people get the shaft from austerity programs of elitist economics that right-wing pols (who typically brag that they can make the Tough Decisions -- sociopaths find making tough decisions that hurt others while getting them fame and glory very easily) impose. Sure... raise taxes on them and give tax breaks to the elites, privatize the public sector in sweetheart deals with monopolistic gougers, have wars for profit in which workers become the cannon fodder on the ground that $crewing them is good for those who own the assets.

Don't ask me to accede to superstition or deprecate learning. The tragedy isn't that we have well-educated machinists or truck drivers, but instead that we have over-educated people devoid of any marketable skills who find old copies of writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Mao and style themselves as revolutionaries. (It would be better if many such people went to hairdressing school and learned how to style hair... not a great career, but one that allows one a living), I have my theory that American Big Business fends off a proletarian revolution by snapping up large numbers of educated people and puts them in bureaucratic roles at which they are paid enough to support a house on a mortgage, a late-model automobile purchased new, nice clothes, and an expensive vacation every five years or so. We should be treating education not so much as a means for getting ahead in life as in knowing how to live.

Most importantly, there is more to life than sex, drugs, mass low culture, bureaucratic power, material comfort, and blatant ostentation. People should know that such a word as luxury indicates a rip-off and that prestige is a sham.

[Anthony '58]

Ominously, the John Birch Society often used the slogan "America is a republic - not a democracy," at least tacitly implying a preference for Republicans over Democrats, even though they had some issues with Republicans too, especially on foreign affairs (pre-Reagan anyway).

[David Horn]

(12-16-2021, 11:02 AM)Anthony Wrote: Ominously, the John Birch Society often used the slogan "America is a republic - not a democracy," at least tacitly implying a preference for Republicans over Democrats, even though they had some issues with Republicans too, especially on foreign affairs (pre-Reagan anyway).

No, their issue was with who gets to decide on who rules the country.  The Birchers were all for white males and very few others.  Perhaps in keeping with the current crop of extreme rightwingers, the Birchers worked in 'cells' in the same way the early communists did .  Love thy enemy? 

[Eric the Green]

(09-28-2021, 09:45 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 09:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 03:42 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-28-2021, 05:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-26-2021, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Here is a question of mine. Most of my generation disagrees with the way I view things and my personal beliefs and religiosity. If so, why should I support defending Democracy knowing I will just lose? Can anyone give me a rationale to do so?

If you support imposing your religion on the rest of us, and that's all you care about, then I suppose not. 

But then, why speak of a rationale, since your views are so irrational?

They impose their SJW values on me so I think fair is fair.

Jesus was a Social Justice Warrior. He opposed the corruption. hypocrisy, and inequity of His time. I could imagine Him coming back to see what people have done with His Ministry, and much of it isn't good.If you claim to be a Christian and still support Donald Trump, then you support someone that I best describe as someone of a wide variety of deep sins. You probably just saw how I saw a large number of televangelists. The Prosperity Gospel is a hideous fraud utterly inconsistent with Jesus' Teaching; I look at the Sermon on the Mount (which is the essence of Christianity, and you can throw out practically the rest of the New Testament as fluff) and see a message that the purpose of a Christian is to bring dignity to those in hardship.

Knocking down the tables of the money-changers and driving the cattle out of the Temple are clearly deeds of a Social Justice Warrior.

I'm not for prosperity gospel.  My focus is more on social conservatism, not fiscal. SJWS focus on things like having pride parades on Blues Clues, wanting to ban religion, saying guns are bad, shouting at people for "cultural appropriation" or celebrating porn or abortions. They don't care about the working class either unless you mean poor barista with a prestigious degree and shares the same views as them.

I don't fit your definition of SJWs. Some of them may do some of those things though. Myself, I don't want to ban religion, although I don't want exclusivist religions to dominate our society and politics. I do say "guns are bad," although they may be necessary for an army, unfortunately, and unfortunately now, tyrants have all the guns in many societies today, and I would be for reversing that. Some SJWs are against "cultural appropriation;" I dissent from that; I say we live in a global society now and we need to learn from and adopt aspects of other cultures if they inspire us. I don't celebrate porn or abortions. But I tend to favor freedom for the former and only fair restrictions for the latter. The Texas and Mississippi laws are unfair. I care about the working class. Are some SJWs more like me?

I'm in agreement with pbrower's comments above.

[pbrower2a]

(12-16-2021, 11:02 AM)Anthony Wrote: Ominously, the John Birch Society often used the slogan "America is a republic - not a democracy," at least tacitly implying a preference for Republicans over Democrats, even though they had some issues with Republicans too, especially on foreign affairs (pre-Reagan anyway).

The UK is a democracy and definitely not a republic. Spain is a democracy and not a republic. Some other democracies still have figurehead monarchs. 

A "republic" now simply means no pretense of a crowned head. Needless to say, a republic under the command of a single-Party system complete with Gulags is no democracy. A republic under the command of a Pinochet-like generalissimo is no democracy. A republic under the command of an intolerant, domineering theocratic clique is no democracy.  

If I must swear fealty to the King of Spain to escape a fascist dictatorship in America I will do so.