Criticize Your Own Side

[JasonBlack]

As usual, I'll start by example (moderate conservative/libertarian)

1) Externalities are a thing. Most economic text books devote like 1 page to them, when really they need at least a whole course to properly explain, because they are the norm with regards to real-world behavior, not the exception. 
2) I understand the contempt many right wingers hold for the moral high ground games so often played by our opponents, but at the same time...we've become so averse to approaching. things from this angle that people have forgotten that we even have morality to begin with. If people have no idea what your values are in the first place (and studies have shown that, with conservatives, most people don't), you have a problem.
3) Rhetorically, conservatives are supposed to be the "steady hand" that provides stability and tradition, while liberals are supposed to be the "rebel against the system!" side of politics. In practice, what I see is the exact opposite. Mainstream conservative politics needs to chill with the Alex Joneses and Gordon Gekkos and take back the frame of being the "sensible, down to earth" image. 
4) Ideally, our beliefs and policies should speak for themselves regardless of race, but in practice, they don't. We need to make a more conscious effort to communicate "capitalism still works for you if you're latino", "conservatism still works for you if you're black". 
5) Similarly, I think we need to make attempts to appeal to more types of personalities. Don't get me wrong, I love scrappy entrepreneurs and sinister Lex Luthor financiers (I am a stock trader, this is me and about half my friends, and I don't regret it for a second), but.....90% of people have nothing in common for that. You can't form an entire political party or ideology based on a niche personality and expect it to work.
6) You have to at least fund the basics like transit and infrastructure so people can actually...get to work. 
7) Aren't we supposed to be the "social responsibility" side of politics? That's kinda the role conservatives play pretty much everywhere else. It only seems logical for us to return to that a bit. 
8) The "just learn to code"/"embrace the gig economy" shtick is not working. Most people are not high IQ enough to do that.
9) People getting rich because they were intelligent or productive is great. Allowing a system which is lose enough for the winners to buy up the game entirely? .....no. We should have been much more cynical about the possibility from the outset. The new wave of formerly-liberal right wingers really have a point when they criticize us for not doing enough to curb those tendencies in the past. Checks and balances have to apply to any powerful organization, not just the government. Otherwise you end up with a world of corrupt bureaucracy and the illusion of accountability.

[JasonBlack]

In retrospect, this is a good example of a Civic criticism of a political apparatus which has become heavily Nomad-dominated. Gen X is easily my favorite current generation, but politically, they tend to be ineffectual and disorganized in spite of generally having some decent values and contributing a lot more than they take out. As much as I tend to like to distance myself from other millennials, this tendency is typically millennial.

[David Horn]

(03-13-2022, 09:08 AM)JasonBlack Wrote: In retrospect, this is a good example of a Civic criticism of a political apparatus which has become heavily Nomad-dominated. Gen X is easily my favorite current generation, but politically, they tend to be ineffectual and disorganized in spite of generally having some decent values and contributing a lot more than they take out. As much as I tend to like to distance myself from other millennials, this tendency is typically millennial.

Gen-X is centered to the right ... the far right in many cases.  So what does the right want?  Apparently, they feel slighted by having to do anything or pay anything that contributes to others, unless they are preferred others, of course.  It should be easy to tear that apart, but the left has managed, over several decades, to muddy its own message to the point that even strong liberals fail to understand what it is their side actually wants.  

Take the environment as a potent example.  Groups on the left wail at the lack of transition to a fossil fuel free world, yet other groups, the Sierra Club comes to mind, actively oppose solar and wind farms because they fail the purity test, making the perfect the total enemy of the good.  So who takes this and runs with it: the right, of course.  No wonder Gen-X punches above their weight.  They're fighting a generation that's actively fighting itself on multiple levels.

In the end, though, change -- and major change at that - is not optional.  The alternative is a slow descent into squalor, and an even longer ascent back to rationality.  It would obviously be highly desirable to avoid chaos, even in the short term, but, unfortunately, that's on you and your generation.

[pbrower2a]

My liberal side is right about economic inequality and the inequity that it engenders. It is in a trap set by the Master Class that practically ensures that steady improvement through incremental reform is either futile or abortive; such can push us into more radical positions that moderates consider menacing.The only successful reformers in our system at achieving their ends,for the last forty years or so, have been those who stand with the most ruthless, rapacious, reckless, and intolerant people in America: the economic elites. Our fault is that we do not adequately stand for small, competitive business that can create prosperity without imposing mass poverty..

[JasonBlack]

(03-13-2022, 01:55 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: My liberal side is right about economic inequality and the inequity that it engenders. It is in a trap set by the Master Class that practically ensures that steady improvement through incremental reform is either futile or abortive; such can push us into more radical positions that moderates consider menacing.The only successful reformers in our system at achieving their ends,for the last forty years or so, have been those who stand with the most ruthless, rapacious, reckless, and intolerant people in America: the economic elites. Our fault is that we do not adequately stand for small, competitive business that can create prosperity without imposing mass poverty..

why can't more people agree on this? 

[JasonBlack]

(03-13-2022, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote: Gen-X is centered to the right ... the far right in many cases.  So what does the right want?  Apparently, they feel slighted by having to do anything or pay anything that contributes to others, unless they are preferred others, of course.

 
I think that's an oversimplification. The difference is that boomers tend to more loudly proclaim what their values are, and millennials are quick to profess solidarity with whatever cause their peers support. Gen X aren't like that. They help people and don't tell anyone about it, preferring quieter forms of volunteer work. ex: I even had one older Xer friend who would try to help me when I wasn't looking and get embarrassed when I expressed my gratitude (this is an extreme example for purposes of illustration, but I always thought it was funny).

Most of the Xers I know kinda relish this image of themselves as "selfish survivalists"....only to be far more charitable behind the scenes than they have ever expected anyone to do for them. For example, even Xers who are single and/or childless tend to be willing to do a lot for children, since they often felt thrown to the wolves during their youth. This isn't the behavior of someone who is uncaring.

And to be honest....that's an important role to fill during a crisis. We don't need everyone to be a soldier, activist, paragon or politician. When need people to be the pragmatic, sensible ones. People who manage the risks and logistics and make hard decisions while other people are all swept up in the emotional wave of the time. As you said below, most of the big projects and building are going to be up to my generation. They don't need to worry about that.

Quote:It should be easy to tear that apart, but the left has managed, over several decades, to muddy its own message to the point that even strong liberals fail to understand what it is their side actually wants.
Take the environment as a potent example.  Groups on the left wail at the lack of transition to a fossil fuel free world, yet other groups, the Sierra Club comes to mind, actively oppose solar and wind farms because they fail the purity test, making the perfect the total enemy of the good.  So who takes this and runs with it: the right, of course.  No wonder Gen-X punches above their weight.  They're fighting a generation that's actively fighting itself on multiple levels.

In the end, though, change -- and major change at that - is not optional.  The alternative is a slow descent into squalor, and an even longer ascent back to rationality.  It would obviously be highly desirable to avoid chaos, even in the short term, but, unfortunately, that's on you and your generation.

100%
the left cannibalizes itself
the right fails to communicate in the first place

[David Horn]

(03-14-2022, 12:31 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(03-13-2022, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote: Gen-X is centered to the right ... the far right in many cases.  So what does the right want?  Apparently, they feel slighted by having to do anything or pay anything that contributes to others, unless they are preferred others, of course.

 
I think that's an oversimplification. The difference is that boomers tend to more loudly proclaim what their values are, and millennials are quick to profess solidarity with whatever cause their peers support. Gen X aren't like that. They help people and don't tell anyone about it, preferring quieter forms of volunteer work. ex: I even had one older Xer friend who would try to help me when I wasn't looking and get embarrassed when I expressed my gratitude (this is an extreme example for purposes of illustration, but I always thought it was funny).

Most of the Xers I know kinda relish this image of themselves as "selfish survivalists"....only to be far more charitable behind the scenes than they have ever expected anyone to do for them. For example, even Xers who are single and/or childless tend to be willing to do a lot for children, since they often felt thrown to the wolves during their youth. This isn't the behavior of someone who is uncaring.

And to be honest....that's an important role to fill during a crisis. We don't need everyone to be a soldier, activist, paragon or politician. When need people to be the pragmatic, sensible ones. People who manage the risks and logistics and make hard decisions while other people are all swept up in the emotional wave of the time. As you said below, most of the big projects and building are going to be up to my generation. They don't need to worry about that.

FWIW, I was mostly commenting on the RW Gen-Xers, but your points are accurate.  Boomers are more vehement and bifurcated (not much in the middle).  Xers tend to occupy the entire political spectrum, but far fewer on the left than the right.  I'm sure that the Ronald Reagan/Margaret Thatcher effect has a lot to do with that.  They came of age when those two were near their zenith.  Millies have a more moderate leftie in Barrach Obama.  Let's see if that matters in the long run.