The New Nurture Is Already Developing

[galaxy]

This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

[Eric the Green]

I don't see much prospect for such a parental attitude yet. Our society is still viewed as not safe. Helicopter parenting is still the norm. Prophets are supposed to start getting born in 2025. I don't know if they will. We only have 3 years to set our world on a course of recovery from global warming and the climate crisis. Otherwise our saeculum ends and there will be no more turnings and no more prophet/idealists or any other archetypes. We face continual and unstoppable decline and fall.

The saeculum has not been hopeless until now. Awakenings have gotten sharper and less traditional from 2nd turning to 2nd turning, with the new realizations passed on from one 2T to the next 2T. The progressive side has always won in 4Ts, except in societies where there are no turnings, or those that suffered huge defeat, but in recent times as in Germany and Japan failed 4T societies were rescued by the victorious USA. Now there is no-one to rescue the USA itself.

[Eric the Green]

(04-27-2022, 05:36 AM)galaxy Wrote: This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

You are more tuned into today's shallow media than I am, and I doubt that what's on it means very much. But who knows. That bagel seems a metaphor for what we are experiencing these days. Destruction upon destruction: war crimes, pandemics, climate crisis, sexual abuse, gun violence, hate and prejudice, conspiracy theory, attacks on democracy, rising prices and poverty/inequality, tyrants rising everywhere; when will it end? Our 4T is nowhere near over and getting worse, and the way we (and especially younger people) hide our heads in the sand and support Republicans, it may never end.

[beechnut79]

(04-27-2022, 05:36 AM)galaxy Wrote: This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

P2:  That is also what the Boomers thought during their youth as well, and they were extremely vocal about it as well; much more so than succeeding generations have been thus far.

P3:   This thought was immortalized in a popular song during the 1960s inspired by a Biblical passage. It also adequately describes the societal malaise we have had in place for several years now; maybe even a couple of decades. Much worse than that supposedly described by Jimmy Carter during his presidency, even though that actual word wasn't used in his talk to the nation.

What happened was that upon reaching relative maturity, much of the Boomer generation became introverted and reserved, especially after AIDS killed off the sexual revolution and a cocooning movement began, which was once described as a National Geographic videotape running in reverse as one time social butterflies began their cocoons. That was when demand for carryout food skyrocketed, now having been eclipsed by home delivery mostly through third party phone apps such as DoorDash. Full disclosure: I have been a DD driver for nearly six years.

In what had been an extroverted world they may have felt pressure to express their thoughts and ideas but with rare exceptions they haven't really felt the need to share them, at least not with the world at large. Except for situations such as George Floyd, there hasn't really been the spark that was there during the 1960s and perhaps early part of the 1970s. In fact the advent of social media with the Internet and smartphones has made the society even more inward than it had already been.

[pbrower2a]

(04-27-2022, 05:36 AM)galaxy Wrote: This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

Prophets/Idealists have their childhood memories formed after the Crisis is resolved. The five-year gap (1860-1865) between the first Missionary Idealists and the end of the Civil War may be longer than the gap between the first Boom Idealists (1943) and V-J Day because of the difference in availability of mass media. Or could it be that some Crisis characteristics remained until 1948 (Czechoslovak coup and the Berlin Airlift)? That could have ensured that the likes of Barbra Streisand are Silent and not Boom. 

We don't know when and how the current Crisis will resolve. I expect the presence of Donald Trump to be a warning to parents (now Millennial and Homeland) to not raise narcissists. When he is gone, then so will be the warning. It could be that inexpensive suburban housing (at least for white Boomers) ensured that Boom kids would have room in which to establish some individuality. We may be unable to have enough cheap single-family housing to create a Boom-like Idealist generation. On the other hand, Boomer achievements haven't been so great on the whole. Politics? We had the passable Clinton, the awful Dubya, and the horrific Trump. Scientific achievement? Rather sparse. Business? The cult of the executive responsible to shareholders to humiliate workers, crush competition, and gouge customers -- pardon me if I vomit.

By August 1944, any fear of an Axis victory was gone. All that mattered was to wipe out the pure evil of genocide and enslavement as well as the inhuman ideologies of reckless and amoral leaders in Rome, Berlin, and Tokyo. The greatest danger to American democracy in America isn't some figures easy to lampoon in an American comic book for their exotic evil. The bad guys in this Crisis are Americans, people who believe in nothing but their own power, indulgence, and gain, and should those people prove mortal, their over-indulged kids who have never struggled for anything more difficult than some math trick (if they liked those).   

Music? OK -- I doubt that anyone would compare G F Handel to Jimi Hendrix even if there is a house in London dedicated to both of them (they were neighbors of a sort, living in opposite sides of a duplex -- about 225 years apart!)



 

Handel obviously knew nothing of his future neighbor, and it is not clear that Jimi Hendrix knew what went on in the past on the other side of 25 Brook street in London.  Whether you prefer Handel or Hendrix is a matter of taste.

[Tim Randal Walker]

The double rhythm suggests that the New Idealists will be more akin to the Missionaries than the Boomers.

[pbrower2a]

(04-28-2022, 11:46 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: The double rhythm suggests that the New Idealists will be more akin to the Missionaries than the Boomers.

That makes sense. The conditions that made the Boomers possible -- lots of square-footage per kid (at least for white kids in the suburbs far beyond the red-lined areas relegated to blacks and Hispanics), huge numbers of well-paying jobs in manufacturing for parents, huge investment in educational infrastructure and teachers being recruited from among the best and brightest) do not exist this time.  There's no great ideological menace from overseas as was Communism, and the struggle against COVID-19 hasn't been the sort to give medals to heroes. (Getting killed while shot down in a military aircraft, firing anti-aircraft guns until one is finally hit fatally, or by throwing oneself onto a live grenade was heroic in World War II. Dying of COVID-19 isn't good for any Purple Heart, let alone Medal of Honor). 

Civil strife is still possible, and it could be lethal. That could still lead to recognition of heroism in the struggle to preserve liberty. Are we in the worst of the whirlwind or is that whirlwind beginning to abate? 

Over one million Americans have died of a respiratory plague that many of us thought could never strike an advanced industrial country like ours. That is roughly twice American combat losses in WWII

[Eric the Green]

(04-28-2022, 08:46 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(04-27-2022, 05:36 AM)galaxy Wrote: This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

Prophets/Idealists have their childhood memories formed after the Crisis is resolved. The five-year gap (1860-1865) between the first Missionary Idealists and the end of the Civil War may be longer than the gap between the first Boom Idealists (1943) and V-J Day because of the difference in availability of mass media. Or could it be that some Crisis characteristics remained until 1948 (Czechoslovak coup and the Berlin Airlift)? That could have ensured that the likes of Barbra Streisand are Silent and not Boom. 

We don't know when and how the current Crisis will resolve. I expect the presence of Donald Trump to be a warning to parents (now Millennial and Homeland) to not raise narcissists. When he is gone, then so will be the warning. It could be that inexpensive suburban housing (at least for white Boomers) ensured that Boom kids would have room in which to establish some individuality. We may be unable to have enough cheap single-family housing to create a Boom-like Idealist generation. On the other hand, Boomer achievements haven't been so great on the whole. Politics? We had the passable Clinton, the awful Dubya, and the horrific Trump. Scientific achievement? Rather sparse. Business? The cult of the executive responsible to shareholders to humiliate workers, crush competition, and gouge customers -- pardon me if I vomit.

By August 1944, any fear of an Axis victory was gone. All that mattered was to wipe out the pure evil of genocide and enslavement as well as the inhuman ideologies of reckless and amoral leaders in Rome, Berlin, and Tokyo. The greatest danger to American democracy in America isn't some figures easy to lampoon in an American comic book for their exotic evil. The bad guys in this Crisis are Americans, people who believe in nothing but their own power, indulgence, and gain, and should those people prove mortal, their over-indulged kids who have never struggled for anything more difficult than some math trick (if they liked those).   

Music? OK -- I doubt that anyone would compare G F Handel to Jimi Hendrix even if there is a house in London dedicated to both of them (they were neighbors of a sort, living in opposite sides of a duplex -- about 225 years apart!)



 

Handel obviously knew nothing of his future neighbor, and it is not clear that Jimi Hendrix knew what went on in the past on the other side of 25 Brook street in London.  Whether you prefer Handel or Hendrix is a matter of taste.

The Handel video is invisible. Which Handel piece did you try to post? Performer? Or was it Hendrix, or what were you trying to post?

[pbrower2a]

The reference was to the Handel and Hendrix House in London. The place exists!

[JasonBlack]

(04-27-2022, 05:36 AM)galaxy Wrote: This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

I was just thinking about this same topic. A big reason why generational theory is such a powerful cycle is because people over-correct for the wounds of their own childhood, rather than base it what their own child is going through. In this case, the parents saying they're sorry....aren't actually the ones who need to apologize. It's the ones who believe they've done nothing wrong who typically need to own up to their mistakes. Apologizing to your child for how YOU were treated generally just leads to that child developing an entitled attitude. "they're apologizing? it's probably because they've wronged me by somehow not giving me what I want, so now I will demand it louder and more indignantly".

[pbrower2a]

(04-30-2022, 11:54 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(04-27-2022, 05:36 AM)galaxy Wrote: This article is the highest-profile, but there's been a lot of discussion of this lately, whether in film, television, and literature, or on social media. Society is already in the mindset that will raise a new generation of Prophets/Idealists.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23025832/eve...urning-red


I have mixed feelings about it. For people my age it really does feel like we are the generation that will correct all of the failings of our own parents, but that's what the GIs and Silents thought too, and look how the Boomers turned out. Not well.

There's a real comfort that comes with knowing the cyclical nature of modern history, but there's also a nihilism and hopelessness that comes with it, knowing that it's impossible to truly "fix" any problem. The fix will create new problems, to be fixed by a later generation, which will in the process recreate the original problems. I guess that's the thing I'm struggling with. There's something really beautiful in it, but it's also so hopeless.

I was just thinking about this same topic. A big reason why generational theory is such a powerful cycle is because people over-correct for the wounds of their own childhood, rather than base it what their own child is going through. In this case, the parents saying they're sorry....aren't actually the ones who need to apologize. It's the ones who believe they've done nothing wrong who typically need to own up to their mistakes. Apologizing to your child for how YOU were treated generally just leads to that child developing an entitled attitude. "they're apologizing? it's probably because they've wronged me by somehow not giving me what I want, so now I will demand it louder and more indignantly".

The timing is of course about right for kids to start being raised to be Idealists or Prophets. What will be different is the presence of plenty of Prophets who will know what went wrong with their elites . Obviously Donald Trump exemplifies Idealist vice without Idealist virtues, and the remaining Boomers (we are now old, but not too old to make a difference) may be some mitigation. Donald Trump will almost surely be the loudest expression of the Boom generation and, to the shame of many fellow Boomers, the one most remembered, if for all the wrong reasons.

The worst sort of Idealist is the one who exploits others severely yet insists upon being recognized as a benefactor. So it was with the loudest proponents of slavery among the Transcendental generation -- they thought that they were the best thing to ever happen to Africans and that the abolitionists would burden freed slaves with responsibilities for which ex-slaves were completely unready. 

Our assembly-line workers, our miners, our farm laborers, our domestic servants, and our salesclerks were humbled. They saw the system as repressive, inequitable, and hierarchical -- and beyond challenge. Boomer executives schooled with their MBA degrees relished getting well paid to treat others badly. I doubt that we can maintain that while having more than a veneer of democracy. Maybe one has the vote, but one must get one's vote approved by one's employer, which means that one's vote is as useful as a piece of used toilet paper. Boomer executives may have been the most rapacious exploiters since the time of slavery. They acted without mercy, and they pushed the sorts of politicians who believe as they do that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as such results in their power, indulgence, and gain... well, maybe they will support wars for profit, but not the sorts likely to result in the overthrow of the gravy train for America's shareholders and executives.

[JasonBlack]

(05-01-2022, 10:57 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The timing is of course about right for kids to start being raised to be Idealists or Prophets. What will be different is the presence of plenty of Prophets who will know what went wrong with their elites . Obviously Donald Trump exemplifies Idealist vice without Idealist virtues, and the remaining Boomers (we are now old, but not too old to make a difference) may be some mitigation. Donald Trump will almost surely be the loudest expression of the Boom generation and, to the shame of many fellow Boomers, the one most remembered, if for all the wrong reasons.

The worst sort of Idealist is the one who exploits others severely yet insists upon being recognized as a benefactor. So it was with the loudest proponents of slavery among the Transcendental generation -- they thought that they were the best thing to ever happen to Africans and that the abolitionists would burden freed slaves with responsibilities for which ex-slaves were completely unready. 

Our assembly-line workers, our miners, our farm laborers, our domestic servants, and our salesclerks were humbled. They saw the system as repressive, inequitable, and hierarchical -- and beyond challenge. Boomer executives schooled with their MBA degrees relished getting well paid to treat others badly. I doubt that we can maintain that while having more than a veneer of democracy. Maybe one has the vote, but one must get one's vote approved by one's employer, which means that one's vote is as useful as a piece of used toilet paper. Boomer executives may have been the most rapacious exploiters since the time of slavery. They acted without mercy, and they pushed the sorts of politicians who believe as they do that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as such results in their power, indulgence, and gain... well, maybe they will support wars for profit, but not the sorts likely to result in the overthrow of the gravy train for America's shareholders and executives.

This is similar to what I was thinking. There is also this growing tendency toward "parenting without authority" which I believe is going to be incredibly problematic and could lead to a cohort of know-it-all children who don't understand when they need to defer to those with more experience. I say this not as someone who is interested in super-authoritarian parenting, but as someone who believes people need to learn when they don't know what the fuck they're talking about and need to listen more than preach (there are plenty of people from my generation who do this too).

While my overall emotional landscape and bluntness are more aligned with my 13er next elders, my attitude of "most people need to shut up and read a book" is actually more typically civic than I originally realized. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that most millennials will be assertive enough in rearing children with these values in mind. I will say this for boomers: like most idealists, they were very assertive in raising children with clear moral imperatives (probably because, on some level, they realized how much they fucked shit up in the 70s lol), but I can't see millennials following suit, and when they come of age, their children are likely to resent them for it. Principles are just as important for providing society with structure as the institutions on which they are built, but, as is common, the intangibles are easier to miss. Millennials just...aren't confident in this area. Even the ones protesting loudly in the streets tend to do so at the behest of some authority figure or mentor and exhibit an underlying sheepishness completely foreign to their boomer elders.

[pbrower2a]

(05-04-2022, 05:48 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(05-01-2022, 10:57 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The timing is of course about right for kids to start being raised to be Idealists or Prophets. What will be different is the presence of plenty of Prophets who will know what went wrong with their elites . Obviously Donald Trump exemplifies Idealist vice without Idealist virtues, and the remaining Boomers (we are now old, but not too old to make a difference) may be some mitigation. Donald Trump will almost surely be the loudest expression of the Boom generation and, to the shame of many fellow Boomers, the one most remembered, if for all the wrong reasons.

The worst sort of Idealist is the one who exploits others severely yet insists upon being recognized as a benefactor. So it was with the loudest proponents of slavery among the Transcendental generation -- they thought that they were the best thing to ever happen to Africans and that the abolitionists would burden freed slaves with responsibilities for which ex-slaves were completely unready. 

Our assembly-line workers, our miners, our farm laborers, our domestic servants, and our salesclerks were humbled. They saw the system as repressive, inequitable, and hierarchical -- and beyond challenge. Boomer executives schooled with their MBA degrees relished getting well paid to treat others badly. I doubt that we can maintain that while having more than a veneer of democracy. Maybe one has the vote, but one must get one's vote approved by one's employer, which means that one's vote is as useful as a piece of used toilet paper. Boomer executives may have been the most rapacious exploiters since the time of slavery. They acted without mercy, and they pushed the sorts of politicians who believe as they do that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as such results in their power, indulgence, and gain... well, maybe they will support wars for profit, but not the sorts likely to result in the overthrow of the gravy train for America's shareholders and executives.

This is similar to what I was thinking. There is also this growing tendency toward "parenting without authority" which I believe is going to be incredibly problematic and could lead to a cohort of know-it-all children who don't understand when they need to defer to those with more experience. I say this not as someone who is interested in super-authoritarian parenting, but as someone who believes people need to learn when they don't know what the fuck they're talking about and need to listen more than preach (there are plenty of people from my generation who do this too).

Boom style of child-raising is at best authoritative: firm, but always in control of itself. The authoritarian parent 'spareth not the rod' often enforcing its ways with brutality. The authoritative parent knows what he does and why he does, and knows when to give the child more autonomy. This is the opposite of the style that is neglectful most of the time and brutal when things go wrong (the kids want legitimate attention and Mommy and Daddy are hung over). Then comes the beating. I don't know what to call it, but I would suspect that that style leads to some messed-up kids. 

It is not adequate that kids learn to defer to whatever authority is out there. It is essential that people decide what the legitimate authority is, and that is not something that one can discern as a small chi8ld. Kids need to learn logical reasoning so that they do not fall for arguments from fear (as in, do you believe in evolution? Do you want to burn in Hell for that?) OK, I have used a similar line that involved Hell as a threat, but that was with a neo-Nazi (I assure you, you do not want to end up in Hell with the Nazis... I'd rather end up in the part of the Afterlife in which George Gershwin and Irving Berlin are writing the pop tunes -- wouldn't you?). Of course Nazism and any derivative thereof is demonic. 

Eventually kids need to establish some individuality as well as the ability to cooperate for some collective good. We all have the responsibility to contribute to overall prosperity, but there are plenty of ways to do that, and those can be very individual. One of the most basic realities of life is that human nature generally supports survival by making most good things for us feel good and most bad things for us feel bad. Putting a finger into battery acid should not feel good, and nobody should have the desire to do so. Oranges taste good, and they are good for us. Of course it is not so simple to say 

"if it feels good, do it",

and expect good results because much that feels good is ephemeral, costly bliss whose excess can hurt one or at the best keep one from making mature decisions. (The best happiness, I have found, is not so intense, but more lasting. That typically requires some learning, foresight, and planning, which themselves are virtues that a workable society promotes.   Anyone who has the potential to be a manager or a high-powered professional must learn the complexity of human nature and why institutions must adapt to it instead of denying it. To put that in the crudest terms -- slavery over-simplified the role of the slave as someone to suffer for the indulgence and gain of an irresponsible elite, and that made slavery wrong. That is one of the easiest ethical arguments possible. Know well that those arguments that require extreme contortions of thought to accept require that one accept some monstrous fallacy. The Spanish Inquisition, anyone? It thought itself consummately righteous.      

Quote:While my overall emotional landscape and bluntness are more aligned with my 13er next elders, my attitude of "most people need to shut up and read a book" is actually more typically civic than I originally realized. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that most millennials will be assertive enough in rearing children with these values in mind. I will say this for boomers: like most idealists, they were very assertive in raising children with clear moral imperatives (probably because, on some level, they realized how much they fucked shit up in the 70s lol), but I can't see millennials following suit, and when they come of age, their children are likely to resent them for it. Principles are just as important for providing society with structure as the institutions on which they are built, but, as is common, the intangibles are easier to miss. Millennials just...aren't confident in this area. Even the ones protesting loudly in the streets tend to do so at the behest of some authority figure or mentor and exhibit an underlying sheepishness completely foreign to their boomer elders.

Well, we aren't reading enough books, and most of what we are reading is trash. Maybe one can learn something from playing video games oe indulging in virtual reality, but all in all if you can't talk about what you are doing something might be very wrong. OK, so we must not tell official secretes or leak (or abuse) confidential information. This said, there's not much to be said about "boozing and whoring" except that it will drain resources and it is really dull material for discussion. 

Boomers were not a monolith. One career that is relatively easy to enter is that of welding -- because many Boomers did it and are retiring, so the jobs are opening. Those were the 'low-class', thing-oriented Boomers who knew that "peace, love, and dope" were not going to solve any problems, but welding together a pricey machine would. The blue-collar Boomers never ruled anything, and they tended to go toward religion as their intellectual life.   

It is always easy to miss the intangibles. The MBA model of management grossly underestimated the humanity of people in the workplace, especially those doing the hard and servile work. The intangibles that people neglect in the service of something bigger themselves become bigger over time, and potentially much more troublesome. Every generation has its collective faults. The Lost (the oldest generation that I knew in large numbers) was realistic to the fault of either fatalistic acceptance of victimhood or cold-blooded cynicism -- the latter usually being put away or blown away before I was born in the mid-1950's. GI's had their bold visions that made assumptions about human nature that proved wrong. The Silent preferred well-paid employment to entrepreneurialism, and that ensured that there would be few genuine growth industries in the Double-Zero decade... just in time for the dot-com disaster at the beginning of the decade and the 1929-style meltdown late in the decade. Boomers got to full of themselves if in power (with predictable results, like Donald Trump who exemplifies Idealist vices with none of the virtues), were broken enough to turn to evangelical or fundamentalist religion for lack of anything else, or separated into some intellectual Nirvana irrelevant to others. X? See the Lost. I see it again, although its pop music lacks an Irving Berlin or George Gershwin. The oldest X that I now know are much like the youngest Lost that I knew as a small child. Millennial adults? I never knew the GI generation as really-young adults.

[JasonBlack]

(04-28-2022, 11:46 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: The double rhythm suggests that the New Idealists will be more akin to the Missionaries than the Boomers.

That would be interesting. Imo, the Missionary were unusual among Idealist generations in that they had a more strongly collectivistic streak from the get go. Their Progressive Gen elders were collectivist, but above them were the mighty Gilded Generation and self-absorbed Transcendental Generation, so imo, they adapted by filling a more collectivist slot (I don't think most people would call the Gilded Age "collectivist" in the same way the Era of Good Feeling or post-WWII High were. It was almost more like a 3rd Turning tbh).