Millennial Women Empowered

[sbarrera]

Much has been made of the relative progress of Millennial women vs. Millennial men. Generally, the trend has been that the women of this generation have fared better than the men, in terms of educational achievement and subsequently income, and in terms of empowerment in society overall. I thought we could explore that in this thread.

First, a post from my blog:

EMPOWERED MILLENNIAL WOMEN

Four years ago, a young woman gave a victim impact statement against a man convicted of criminal sexual conduct. It was a high profile case, because the criminal conduct had been ongoing for decades and involved hundreds of adolescent girls. The woman, Kyle Stephens, confronted her victimizer and made a powerful statement which included these resounding words: “Little girls don’t stay little forever. They grow into strong women that return to destroy your world.” It was a landmark moment in the history of the #Me Too movement.





Stephens is a member of the Millennial generation, while the man she was confronting is from Generation X. Her statement was like a challenge to the men of older generations: you can’t get away with what you used to do. It was a sign of a new young adult era, with a new young generation on the rise – a generation with high expectations, and one that wouldn’t tolerate bad behavior. A social movement was underway, and the careers of many prominent Boomer and Xer men who were guilty of sexual harassment or assault, even if it had been in the past, crashed and burned.

The Millennial generation had been the beneficiary of protection, regulation, and zero-tolerance policies throughout their childhood, and it was to be expected that this trend would follow them into young adulthood. With all that structure while being raised came boosts to self-esteem, along with pressure to achieve. This is how Millennials came of age with high expectations, which has caused older generations to complain that they are “entitled.” But how could older generations think that Millennials could – or should – settle for less, or be taken advantage of?

Millennial girls, in particular, were raised to believe in their specialness and in their capabilities. They were the high-achievement Lisa Simpsons, in contrast to the slacker older brother Bart Simpsons of my generation (Generation X). In popular kids’ entertainment their role models were empowered: Power Rangers, Powerpuff Girls. The pop superstars of their adolescent years were GenX/Millennial cuspers like Brittney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and Beyoncé – independent ladies singing about how they were in charge in their relationships with men, if they even wanted a man at all.

Small wonder that Millennial women have taken the adult world by storm, and asserted their rights within it. True to the spirit of Destiny’s Child and Independent Women, they may be the most financially successful generation of women in American history. They are faring better than their male counterparts in today’s job market, which is not surprising given that they also dominate college enrollments. In fact, one of their hurdles in life is finding a partner who is a good match, given these disparities.

That’s not to say that women don’t still face discrimination and harassment. Nor is it to justify anti-feminist backlash. But where such backlash exists because of the gap in outcomes between Millennial women and Millennial men, that is a problem. The solution is not to disempower women, but to find ways to empower men as well. Raising job prospects for those without a college degree would be a good start. Making life more affordable for the working class in general is also a good bet.

The #Me Too movement was actually started by a Gen Xer, a decade before it grew to prominence. It has come to the forefront of public consciousness at a time when Millennials are the rising young adult generation. In that sense it represents the demand of a new generation of women, raised in a sheltering social environment, that the adult social environment also be safe for them and respectful of them. Only then will they be empowered to achieve their destiny.

[Eric the Green]

The Millennial women do seem to be smart and sharp, such as some I have met, like my doctor and nurse today. I just wish more millennials went to church or other social groups of all ages. It's a lonely world these days.

[sbarrera]

(08-19-2022, 01:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Millennial women do seem to be smart and sharp, such as some I have met, like my doctor and nurse today. I just wish more millennials went to church or other social groups of all ages. It's a lonely world these days.

There was one social group I had in the recent past which was multigenerational - it was a choir. We were amateurs and performed mainly for retirement communities. But it was a lot of fun and there were people of all ages in the choir, from college age up to seniors who were as old as the people in the retirement communities where we were performing.

[sbarrera]

Here's a TED talk on the rise of women. It's from about 10 years ago.




Hanna Rosin reviews startling new data that shows women actually surpassing men in several important measures, such as college graduation rates. Do these trends, both US-centric and global, signal the "end of men"? Probably not -- but they point toward an important societal shift worth deep discussion.

[beechnut79]

Around 1985 I was browsing a college library and found in a sociological magazine an article which started out something like this: How are you gonna get 'em back into the kitchen? You ain't!

[JasonBlack]

With the self-esteem, body-positivity, MeToo and countless other movements being made by and for women, this is hardly a surprising outcome. Many millennial men relate more to their Gen X next elders because this lack of support has left us with two options: you can let it make you weaker, or use it to become stronger. My own childhood was a mixed bag: growing up with supportive, financially secure parents, but in a world that did had no intention of doing the same. I am grateful for this balance, because it was supportive during a time where I needed more guidance and protection, but hard enough for me to develop a spine and an attitude of self-reliance.

Alas, while I can control how I deal with the lack of support men get in this society, I cannot always control the affect it has on my friends. With that said, I will be honest: I have lost many male friends and acquaintances to suicide on account of abusive mothers, girlfriends and/or coworkers who were given far more "empowerment" than they ever deserved, so you'll have to forgive me is I approach this topic with some bitterness.

[sbarrera]

(08-19-2022, 04:03 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: With the self-esteem, body-positivity, MeToo and countless other movements being made by and for women, this is hardly a surprising outcome. Many millennial men relate more to their Gen X next elders because this lack of support has left us with two options: you can let it make you weaker, or use it to become stronger. My own childhood was a mixed bag: growing up with supportive, financially secure parents, but in a world that did had no intention of doing the same. I am grateful for this balance, because it was supportive during a time where I needed more guidance and protection, but hard enough for me to develop a spine and an attitude of self-reliance.

Alas, while I can control how I deal with the lack of support men get in this society, I cannot always control the affect it has on my friends. With that said, I will be honest: I have lost many male friends and acquaintances to suicide on account of abusive mothers, girlfriends and/or coworkers who were given far more "empowerment" than they ever deserved, so you'll have to forgive me is I approach this topic with some bitterness.

I can understand why Millennial men might be bitter about their state in this world. Just watch the TED talk above and look at the graph showing how men are being pushed into low wage jobs while women disproportionately take up the high wage jobs. 

I'll post a couple of articles from Neil Howe and hope it doesn't add to your bitterness.

[sbarrera]

This article somewhat contradicts the TED talk I posted earlier; it's not all positive trends for Millennial women. I'm including the entire article because the Forbes web site is garbage and best avoided.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/20...3756791cdf


For Millennial Women, A Mixed Progress Report
Neil HoweFormer Contributor

Jan 12, 2018,11:00am EST

This article is more than 4 years old.

A new Pew Research study sheds light on the significant gender imbalance in the U.S. tech industry. According to the study, not only are women severely underrepresented in high-earning occupations like engineering, but fully 50% of women working in STEM fields say they’ve experienced gender discrimination in the workplace. These concerns are echoed in a recent wide-ranging report from the Population Reference Bureau (PRB), which not only finds that Millennial women are less represented in STEM professions than Gen-X women, but also identifies multiple areas where female progress has stalled or reversed over time. The report offers a portrait of a generation of young women who continue to face economic and social challenges even as they make impressive gains that have transformed work and family life.

The PRB report offers an overview of 14 different measures of economic, social, and physical well-being—such as income, educational attainment, and mortality rates. Researchers aggregated the indicators over time to calculate and compare index scores for four generations: Silent, Boomers, Generation X, and Millennials. According to the analysis, Boomer women’s overall well-being improved hugely (66%) compared to Silent women. But Gen-X women saw only a small uptick (2%) compared to Boomer women. The well-being of Millennial women, however, declined 1% compared to Gen-X women.

At first glance, this conclusion might seem surprising. Headlines tout the progress of Millennial women, contrasting them with their seemingly stuck male peers. Millennial women not only are more educated than previous generations of women were, but are also outpacing men in educational attainment. Fully 29% of married women ages 25 to 34 earn more than their husbands, up from 16% in 1981. The gender wage gap has narrowed, with young women’s median earnings rising from 75% of men’s in 1985 to 90% today. Meanwhile, with teen birthrates (and pregnancy rates) reaching record lows, fewer women are having their life choices curtailed at an early age.

These positive trends, however, have occurred alongside several negative trends. Even as more working women have moved into male-dominated fields, they remain severely underrepresented in lucrative professions. In the 1990s, Gen-X women represented 25.1% of STEM workers, but this has fallen to 22.5% for Millennials—which is also below the ratio among Boomer women (22.7%). The decline has been especially pronounced in computer-related occupations. Among Boomers, women made up 35% of the workers in these jobs. Among Millennials, it’s only 23%.

Dangers to women’s physical health and well-being have also grown. The suicide rate among Millennial women has ticked up again after two decades of decline to 6.3 deaths per 100,000 women, exceeding the rate among Boomers (6.0 in 1983-1985) and Xers (4.4 in 1998-2000). Rates of maternal mortality among women ages 25 to 34 have also increased sharply over time—a historical anomaly among high-income countries. Millennial mothers now face roughly the same risk of dying from pregnancy-related complications as women the same age did 45 years ago despite vast improvements in medical technology.

Meanwhile, over the past 15 years, the drug overdose rate for 25- to 34-year-old women has skyrocketed from 2.9 deaths per 100,000 women to 12.5 deaths. Over that time, the share of 30- to 34-year-olds living below the federal poverty line has risen from 12% among Generation X to 17% among Millennials. To be sure, these aren’t young-woman-only problems; drug addiction affects both genders and all ages, and young men are at least as affected by economic hardship as young women.

Taken together, these trends provide a bird’s eye view of how women’s lives have changed over time. The positive trends paint a picture of rising individual empowerment. Compared to previous generations, Millennial women are more prepared to thrive in a market economy and begin their working lives at or near parity with men. A population that is generally better educated and postponing marriage or children has an unprecedented number of options.

But this rising sense of empowerment comes with downsides and caveats. For one, increased freedom of choice creates greater pressure on women to dedicate themselves equally to family and career—an anxiety-wracked, and some argue, unrealistic ideal. Pew Research Center has found, moreover, that wage gaps between women and men tend to widen over time. And then there’s the fact that the expansion of choice does not even apply to many Millennial women. A rising share are single mothers who did not complete college—and today, a lack of a degree disadvantages single moms more today than it did for earlier generations.

Of course, Millennial women are still grappling with many of the social and structural barriers their mothers and grandmothers did. Pew reports that Millennial women are nearly as likely as older women to agree that “it’s a man’s world.” Women continue to face gender discrimination and sexism at work, not to mention outright sexual assault as evidenced by the ongoing Hollywood sexual harassment saga. Meanwhile, the rising maternal mortality rate has resulted partly from decreased access to reproductive health services, as well as an increased focus on fetal and infant care that hasn’t been paralleled with increased concern for maternal health.

All of these considerations provide a backdrop for the amplified emotional issues among Millennial women. Of course, Millennial men face their own set of obstacles, particularly when it comes to regaining their footing in the job market. Millennial women, meanwhile, are struggling with an unrealistically ambitious agenda at which they are expected to succeed—which, among other things, is leading to a rising epidemic of task-focusing stimulants among this generation of women. The steep increase in the suicide rate is another worrisome sign that young women need some way to relieve the anxieties of modern life—or, at the very least, improved access to mental health resources.

For decades, women’s empowerment was equated with the ability to “lean in.” But looking ahead, it may be that the ultimate sign of success Millennial women seek is the freedom to “lean out” and choose exactly which life goals they wish to pursue without guilt.

[sbarrera]

Another Howe article in Forbes article; about changes in the economy and how they affect the sexes differently. This one mentions Hanna Rosin, who gives the TED talk posted earlier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/20...d8781d6639

The Spread Of The Pink-Collar Economy
Neil Howe

Feb 28, 2017,11:00am EST

This article is more than 5 years old.

According to the February BLS jobs report, goods-producing industries created 19% of all private U.S. jobs added in January 2017; service-providing industries created the other 81%. These data illustrate an immutable truth about today’s economy: Blue-collar fields are shrinking (and aging), while pink-collar fields are surging. The consequences are many. Baumol’s cost disease, which I'll get to later, could fuel a long-term U.S. productivity slowdown. On the upside, the long-rooted shift away from blue-collar work means that fears of technology killing off jobs are exaggerated. Ultimately, this sectoral shift will cause ever-more Millennial men to join—and reshape—the pink-collar workforce.

The data all tell a similar story. According to a Pew analysis of BLS data, the educational services and health care fields each have doubled in size since 1990. Manufacturing, on the other hand, has lost 30% of its jobs since 1990, the worst performance of any sector. More than one-quarter of new jobs added in January (28%) were in health care and leisure—nearly double all jobs created by farming, mining, manufacturing, and construction combined.

Projections show that this trend will only accelerate in future years. From 2014 to 2024, BLS projects service-providing firms to create 95% of all jobs. Indeed, by 2024, the health care sector alone is projected to contain a greater share of total workers (15%) than all goods-producing industries combined (13%). The top three job-creating professions over the next decade: personal care aides, registered nurses, and home health aides.

Not surprisingly, because blue-collar sectors have stagnated, blue-collar employment is top-heavy with older workers. BLS data reveal that the median age for a construction worker was 42.7 in 2016, up from 38.7 in 2000. Compare this to the median age for a wholesale and retail trade worker, which is low and rising more slowly. It was 39.3 in 2016, up slightly from 37.1 in 2000. Precisely because they aren’t growing, these blue-collar professions don’t generate much net demand for younger recruits. Over time, this disconnect from the young-adult job market makes it hard for blue-collar firms to attract and recruit youth even when they need new hires.

The graying of the blue-collar workforce disproportionally hurts males. Fully 91% of construction workers and 71% of manufacturing workers are men. By contrast, 79% of health care and social assistance workers are women. In fact, most of the jobs projected by BLS to grow the fastest—including the top three professions overall—skew heavily female.

What’s behind these sectoral divergences? The primary explanation is “Baumol’s cost disease,” the tendency of high-productivity sectors to shrink as a share of total employment—and low-productivity sectors to expand as a share of total employment. Further reinforcing this trend is the growing economic demand for services and “experiences” over goods and “stuff.” In part, this shift is being driven by demographic aging—with retiring Boomers, for example, fueling extraordinary growth rates in home health workers. Changing consumer attitudes also factor in. When older generations engage in conspicuous consumption, they buy “things”—autos, homes, jewelry, etc. Millennials, by contrast, use social media to conspicuously consume and curate significant moments.

The large-scale shift away from goods production and toward services provision has major implications for the future of our economy, some bad and some good.

The bad news is that Baumol’s cost disease could impose a long-term drag on productivity growth. Growth in real worker output per hour already has slowed considerably over the past 15 years. The continued expansion of low-productivity sectors and the contraction of high-productivity sectors will further pull down the overall rate. The shift may also make productivity ever-harder to measure: How, for example, does one quantify the output of a public relations manager?

The good news is that most workers may not have to fear technology after all. Many experts are convinced that robotics, IT, and AI are destined to render a huge chunk of the workforce obsolete. But to a great extent, this has already happened—meaning that the same percentage decline in goods-producing jobs will have progressively less impact on total employment in the years to come.

Perhaps the largest effect of this shift, however, will be a massive gender retooling in which men flow into pink-collar professions—and perhaps redefine them.

It may not be a historical accident that men dominate blue-collar work and women dominate pink-collar work. Most pink-collar jobs require right-brain EQ and/or “flow” dexterity skills—which confer a natural advantage to women. Men, however intelligent and accomplished, tend to perform well in tasks that involve left-brained, straight-line thinking—in other words, the very tasks most prone to automation and algorithms.

This paradigm shift is creating a sense of gender discomfort. On the one hand, authors like Hanna Rosin point out that women are surpassing men in workplace credentials and aptitude. Yet this fact has yet to change the economy: Women’s LFP has recently been declining, and in most households, females are still dependent on male breadwinners. On the other hand, Donald Trump’s promise to bring back America’s blue-collar workforce resonates with working-class men. Yet these men yearn for a past that isn’t coming back: U.S. manufacturing never left, after all—and at some level take pride in America’s ability to make more with less.

Many no doubt recoil from the stigma associated with a pink-collar job. Out-of-work 53-year-old welder Tracy Dawson flatly declares: “I ain’t gonna be a nurse; I don’t have the tolerance for people.” This difficult adjustment may partly explain the declining LFP of prime-age males, a subject ably covered in Nicholas Eberstadt’s recent book, Men Without Work.

The irony is that, while white Boomer men provide the groundswell of Trump’s support, they now occupy the single male age bracket most likely to hold blue-collar jobs. Millennials, on the other hand, have experienced a far different reality. Eventually, as pink-collar work keeps growing as a share of the total workforce, Millennial men may carve out their own niche and masculinize many of these professions in ways we cannot yet imagine.

[JasonBlack]

Addressing a few points from these articles

Quote:Meanwhile, over the past 15 years, the drug overdose rate for 25- to 34-year-old women has skyrocketed from 2.9 deaths per 100,000 women to 12.5 deaths. Over that time, the share of 30- to 34-year-olds living below the federal poverty line has risen from 12% among Generation X to 17% among Millennials. To be sure, these aren’t young-woman-only problems; drug addiction affects both genders and all ages, and young men are at least as affected by economic hardship as young women.

Given Millennials are a Civic generation and Gen X Reactive, this increase is a little more concerning that those outside of S&H Theory are likely to recognize

Quote:Of course, Millennial women are still grappling with many of the social and structural barriers their mothers and grandmothers did. Pew reports that Millennial women are nearly as likely as older women to agree that “it’s a man’s world.”

One thing that bothers me about a lot of feminist research is that they ask questions like "do you feel like this is true?" and treat that as if it's evidence or something. In this case, it's basically been something we've been taught to say for the last 20+ years, so that isn't enough to convince me of much. Ironically, feminist Germaine Greer perhaps said it better than anyone: "it's not the spider's fault that I'm afraid of it"

Quote:But this rising sense of empowerment comes with downsides and caveats. For one, increased freedom of choice creates greater pressure on women to dedicate themselves equally to family and career—an anxiety-wracked, and some argue, unrealistic ideal. Pew Research Center has found, moreover, that wage gaps between women and men tend to widen over time. And then there’s the fact that the expansion of choice does not even apply to many Millennial women. A rising share are single mothers who did not complete college—and today, a lack of a degree disadvantages single moms more today than it did for earlier generations.

Given the degree to which traditional marriage has been denigrated in the United States as of late, this is hardly surprising.

[David Horn]

(08-19-2022, 08:23 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: Addressing a few points from these articles

Quote:Meanwhile, over the past 15 years, the drug overdose rate for 25- to 34-year-old women has skyrocketed from 2.9 deaths per 100,000 women to 12.5 deaths. Over that time, the share of 30- to 34-year-olds living below the federal poverty line has risen from 12% among Generation X to 17% among Millennials. To be sure, these aren’t young-woman-only problems; drug addiction affects both genders and all ages, and young men are at least as affected by economic hardship as young women.

Given Millennials are a Civic generation and Gen X Reactive, this increase is a little more concerning that those outside of S&H Theory are likely to recognize

Quote:Of course, Millennial women are still grappling with many of the social and structural barriers their mothers and grandmothers did. Pew reports that Millennial women are nearly as likely as older women to agree that “it’s a man’s world.”

One thing that bothers me about a lot of feminist research is that they ask questions like "do you feel like this is true?" and treat that as if it's evidence or something. In this case, it's basically been something we've been taught to say for the last 20+ years, so that isn't enough to convince me of much. Ironically, feminist Germaine Greer perhaps said it better than anyone: "it's not the spider's fault that I'm afraid of it"

Quote:But this rising sense of empowerment comes with downsides and caveats. For one, increased freedom of choice creates greater pressure on women to dedicate themselves equally to family and career—an anxiety-wracked, and some argue, unrealistic ideal. Pew Research Center has found, moreover, that wage gaps between women and men tend to widen over time. And then there’s the fact that the expansion of choice does not even apply to many Millennial women. A rising share are single mothers who did not complete college—and today, a lack of a degree disadvantages single moms more today than it did for earlier generations.

Given the degree to which traditional marriage has been denigrated in the United States as of late, this is hardly surprising.

The old adage that, "you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs" may apply here.  Social upheaval is a lot different than simple social evolution.  Watching today's youth struggle with their place in a world that is totally differnt from the one their parents live(d) in and will be totaly transformed again before they complete their lives has to be emotionally challenging.  Of course, not all will do well in that milleau, yet the change is inevitable.  

Yes, it's a huge challenge that's trampeling on too many.  No, there is no viable alternative.

[sbarrera]

According to this Pew research article, there is still a gender gap in pay (women still get paid less, a well-known feminist talking point), but the gap is smaller for younger women.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...gap-facts/

[sbarrera]

This Pew research article  confirms much of what is in Rosin's TED talk:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...d-workers/

Key points follow. It's easy to see how these trends tie into the shift from a manufacturing to a service economy.

• Women are in the majority in jobs that draw most heavily on either social or fundamental skills.
  
• The growing presence of women in higher-skill occupations helped to narrow the gender wage gap.
  
• Despite women’s advantages in skills and education, the gender wage gap persists and is ubiquitous.
  
• Gender differences in skills are rooted in gender differences in occupations.
  
• Employment is rising more rapidly in jobs in which social and fundamental skills are most important.
  
• Wages are higher and rising faster in jobs that rely heavily on social, fundamental, analytical and managerial skills.
  
• Emerging occupations call for greater proficiency in analytical skills.
  

[pbrower2a]

(08-19-2022, 02:12 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: Around 1985 I was browsing a college library and found in a sociological magazine an article which started out something like this: How are you gonna get 'em back into the kitchen? You ain't!

That will be true of professional women who have responsible, fulfilling jobs. Basically, women who have achieved employment status as engineers, attorneys, physicians, nurses, dentists, accountants, research scientists, college professors, civil administrators, law enforcement, and the like will remain such and not be satisfied with "children, church, and kitchen". Such was so in the 1950's with those women (mostly Lost and early-wave GI) who got into the professions.   Howe-Strauss theory suggests that elsewhere, women in more disposable jobs such as cleaning and retail sales clerking will be more likely to return to traditional household roles if their husbands have adequately-paying jobs. Such was the pattern after WWII and won't be again. 

Wages have been depressed as a matter of overt policy since the early 1980's, and that has pushed women into the workforce to supplement the pittances that their husbands make. Policy for Big Business has generally been to export jobs that once allowed millions of Americans (especially men) to be successful breadwinners in manufacturing as manufacturers become importers. Meanwhile, employers have exploited the reality where they cannot export the job, as is so with cleaning and sales-clerking.  

We need remember that women, like men, are on two different tracks that make childbearing less likely than was so before. The middle class is often "double income, no kids" in which two adult professionals have solid incomes but are consigned to tiny, child-hostile housing (apartments or condos) typically in the Big City. The other is the couple who both have cr@ppy, low-paying jobs that allow bare survival for the couple and little more. Have you noticed that fast food work is now often held by people far from qualifying as kids starting out? The first job for many workers in such a place as most see it at age 16 is often now the last job for someone around 60 for various reasons, such as never getting ahead in life. 

The climate of hostility to children that existed in the 1970's and 1980's is past. Child-bearing and child-raising is potentially a fulfilling role, especially for women of limited opportunity. Giving up a job as a retail salesclerk to raise a family may again be more attractive than it used to be. Also -- men have far more pathologies if they are out of work. Men out of work may not be the only ones drawn to extremist causes, but remember well that Italian and German men often found that they could achieve purpose in life if they donned the uniform of a gangster cause (black shirt or brown shirt) and got action often resembling work complete with workplace-style regimentation. It may be better for social concord that men put their actions into making things instead of beating up others. 

Testosterone versus estrogen is the great divide between men and women, and testosterone makes males much more aggressive than females of species other than us. I have seen that in dogs, animals whose social structure is much like ours (the human family and a wolf pack are similar); male dogs are much more aggressive (unless defending her puppies, in which case she is a typical bear or Big Cat in behavior) than literal bitches. (She barks, she has sharp claws and teeth, and is born with a reproductive system that is intended to bear puppies if given the chance, so that is not male-chauvinist-pig language. If you are to call someone a "bitch" then make sure that she barks.  Men are more aggressive than women, and that manifests itself in far-higher rates of violent crime. Add to that, fascist movements are largely "bad-boys clubs" and most of the drug kingpins are men. 

Men with first-rate educations and intellects can look at time off work as leisure. Men without those see such as scary. It is better that they make enough on the job that they can go bowling or play videogames in the arcade at night than get drunk and beat their wives because they are angry and aggressive and have no place to go and neither do their wives. To that end, women with cr@ppy jobs will likely leave the workplace so that men can be successful breadwinners.  

As for sexual assault and abuse... that will be part of the no-no's of life. 1T's are typically more repressive sexually. LGBT rights are likely to stick, but spouse-beating and child molestation will be objects of repression.   

Economic realities are part of the Cycle, and I expect that to be so again. I hope that I break no bubble.

[sbarrera]

(08-19-2022, 08:23 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

Quote:But this rising sense of empowerment comes with downsides and caveats. For one, increased freedom of choice creates greater pressure on women to dedicate themselves equally to family and career—an anxiety-wracked, and some argue, unrealistic ideal. Pew Research Center has found, moreover, that wage gaps between women and men tend to widen over time. And then there’s the fact that the expansion of choice does not even apply to many Millennial women. A rising share are single mothers who did not complete college—and today, a lack of a degree disadvantages single moms more today than it did for earlier generations.

Given the degree to which traditional marriage has been denigrated in the United States as of late, this is hardly surprising.

Jason,

You might be interested in these research articles suggesting that Millennials are returning to more traditional views with respect to family and marriage.

Joanna Pepin and David Cotter: Trending Towards Traditionalism? Changes in Youths’ Gender Ideology
https://sites.utexas.edu/contemporaryfam...5-04:00ycl

Rising share of Americans see women raising children on their own, cohabitation as bad for society
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...5-04:00ycl

The overall trends that I see based on these articles and discussions are:

1. Transition to the service economy has benefitted women in the workforce disproportionately compared to men.
   
2. Raising girls with high expectations and belief in gender egalitarianism has normalized the idea of equal treatment of women in the workplace.
   
3. The trends favoring women in the high end service/managerial sector have hampered marriage and family formation as young men disproportionately participate in the low wage job sector.
   
4. Belief in the value of traditional marriage arrangements has also increased.
   

I would say that #2 is a good thing, and a positive aspect of the #metoo movement. We no longer tolerate sexist behavior in the workplace or have this idealized view of the workplace as a completely egalitarian social sphere.

#4 I see as a backlash against the perceived damages to home and family life that have accompanied these economic trends, and presumably also a backlash against the loosening of social mores since the last Awakening era.  

So different understandings of gender egalitarianism apply to work life versus home life. This is actually discussed in the first paper, by Joanna Pepin and David Cotter.

[JasonBlack]

(08-20-2022, 08:24 AM)David Horn Wrote: The old adage that, "you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs" may apply here.  Social upheaval is a lot different than simple social evolution.  Watching today's youth struggle with their place in a world that is totally differnt from the one their parents live(d) in and will be totaly transformed again before they complete their lives has to be emotionally challenging.  Of course, not all will do well in that milleau, yet the change is inevitable.  
Yes, it's a huge challenge that's trampeling on too many.  No, there is no viable alternative.

At the very least, I think we would benefit from being more honest about who is being trampled. At the moment, we're telling poor white men that they're super privileged when they are the ones being trampled. Granted, males and poor people tend to be suffering overall, but if you're black, female, trans, etc, people actually tend to give a shit. It's like how both men and women suffer form domestic abuse, but there are over 2000 domestic abuse shelters for women, and about 2 for men.


sbarrera

Quote:You might be interested in these research articles suggesting that Millennials are returning to more traditional views with respect to family and marriage.

Joanna Pepin and David Cotter: Trending Towards Traditionalism? Changes in Youths’ Gender Ideology
https://sites.utexas.edu/contemporaryfam...5-04:00ycl

Rising share of Americans see women raising children on their own, cohabitation as bad for society
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...5-04:00ycl

The reason why we don't have more traditional marriage in the states is that we expect the same responsibilities and sacrifices from men, but with none of the respect, authority or rewards that responsibility tended to bring. 
I have heard many liberal millennial women lament "where have all the real men gone?!", to which I've answered: "I've been here the whole time, I've just been doing the opposite of what you claim to want, and avoiding those who won't show basic respect".

For the sake of population maintenance, I don't think it's tenable for men to go too far on the MGTOW ("Men Going Their Own Way") side of things, but at the very least, men need to lay down some ground rules and be willing to tell potential suitors some variant of "No. I have no desire to get to know women who are disrespectful".

aside from that, situations will vary, but many would benefit from laying down terms like 
1) "A 50/50 split of household chores is not a fair arrangement if I also work longer hours at a more stressful job"
2) "If you want me to be monogamous, you have to be willing to give me consistent sex"**
3) "Don't disrespect me in public. If you have an issue, let's talk in private"
4) "You can either be judgmental and critical or you can expect me to be "emotionally open". You cannot be both"
5) "I'm happy to work out any potential issues that are making you angry, but it is your responsibility to communicate them clearly, not mine to mind read them".
6) "Sex is not a bargaining chip. If you use sex to control me I will divorce your ass"
7) "You can't complain constantly about "toxic masculinity" and then wonder why no one around you is masculine. Be willing to be encouraging of the traits you wish to see in others". 

None of this requires to some return to the creepy, Twilight Zone-esque social roles of the 1950s, but it does mean renegotiating some terms so that women are expected to give concessions in order to get the benefits they currently expect for free.

**men on average have 17 times the testosterone of women, so yeah, sometimes that means "I not in the mood right now, but my man has needs". Granted, while men care more about quantity of sex, women tend to care more about quality, so I think a fair corollary to this is "if you want me to have more frequent sex, you need to make sure you put in the time to learn how to be good in bed".

[pbrower2a]

Maybe we have a need for some ethical erotica that respects women. Can it be done?

[sbarrera]

Jason,

With regard to your list of points- a working relationship depends on a sense of mutual respect and an ability to communicate no matter who the partners are. It is not just women who are critical or passive aggressive or emotionally manipulative. All of your points work both ways, or with same sex partners.

Frankly, they apply to nonromantic relationships too (minus the sex stuff). Sustaining a relationship requires willingness to listen and to be open-minded, and commitment and hard work. That is the real key to a successful relationship - it is an ongoing project. There's no bulletpoint list that once you satisfy it, then boom! the relationship works.

As for expecting a wife to provide sexual service, that is just gross. That's what you expect from a prostitute, not a spouse.

[JasonBlack]

(08-22-2022, 11:32 AM)sbarrera Wrote: Jason,

With regard to your list of points- a working relationship depends on a sense of mutual respect and an ability to communicate no matter who the partners are. It is not just women who are critical or passive aggressive or emotionally manipulative. All of your points work both ways, or with same sex partners.

Sure, I listed one such counter-example, but I could list several more. Hell, I'm into guys, so it's less directly relevant to me, but the point is that, on balance, men and women are pretty different psychologically and have different needs, desires and sexual preferences. Naturally, this will vary by individual, but that's why, when I enter into a new relationship, we sit down, have a talk about what each of us needs and is willing to give and then make a straight up contract.

Quote:Frankly, they apply to nonromantic relationships too (minus the sex stuff). Sustaining a relationship requires willingness to listen and to be open-minded, and commitment and hard work. That is the real key to a successful relationship - it is an ongoing project. There's no bulletpoint list that once you satisfy it, then boom! the relationship works.

Absolutely. The main difference is that in romantic relationships, you have duties to meet each others needs that don't exist for platonic friendships. I'll give you an example: I'm currently seeing someone who (hmm...how to put this politely...) is very submissive and gets aroused by some behaviors I would consider a little too forceful. As such, I don't find them that appealing, but I'm willing to play along so that he feels like his needs are getting satisfied. Meanwhile, my needs tend to be a little more cuddly/affectionate, so he makes an effort to meet mine too.

Quote:As for expecting a wife to provide sexual service, that is just gross. That's what you expect from a prostitute, not a spouse.

That's like saying "You expect your husband to protect you? Isn't that the military's job?" The notion that it's okay to just...not have sex with your spouse because you don't feel like it is recent and almost uniquely American. An agreement of "if you expect me not to fuck other people, you need to make sure you fuck me regularly" is entirely reasonable. Otherwise....go with someone polygamous.


Many Boomer and Xer couples couples eventually found what works for them, but the vast majority of millennials have train wreck relationship histories they have no business encouraging others to emulate. This is fine. Many of us are still pretty young, and these things take time, but...so many people are out there being super moralistic about this advice, even when they themselves are miserable doing exactly that. I've had several iterations of millennials trying to talk to me about relationships and responded like "your exes are all abusive sociopaths. why the hell would I trust anything you say?" or "tell me more about how happy you were dating all those feminazis with BPD (hint: you weren't. you complained to me about them several times)." This probably comes across as mean, and I think it's important to remember that we all make mistakes, but those mistakes should become behavioral norms we encourage people NOT to imitate. For example, I've had a few bad apples, but I learned to spot both my own mistakes and bad character traits in my partners to avoid in the future, and since then, all my relationships have been great.