The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: The primary process is starting to look like a circular firing squad. First, they winnow the field in two remarkably unrepresentative states. To aid in this selection, several shoot-from-the-hip debates are held, each with a cast of thousands. No one gets to stand out, so it’s open to media hype more is typical. So far, there is a rotating cast of characters keeping the process media friendly. 

I hope you’re right and the next two contests start to focus on a final candidate, but I’m skeptical. With Mike Bloomberg out there, this could go all the way to the convention. That doesn’t bode well for the party of cats.

It must suck having Bloomberg in the mix today. I mean Bloomberg represents everything about the elites that you guys claim to hate. I mean, an actual oligarch running to be your president who has the money to buy and influence every politician/lawmakers on your side with the exception of Bernie maybe.

I do not remember seeing you complain that Donald Trump was in the political mix in 2016. This man offended plenty of conservative sensibilities between his sexual conduct, his serial divorces, his predatory character as a businessman, and his contempt for formal learning. With Trump we have someone who lives for his indulgence, self-esteem, and his image. He believes in nothing but himself. 

If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

Dude, I've never been an Evangelical voter. You should know that the stuff about Trump's past doesn't matter to an American voter like me. You should also know that the silly/ petty stuff Trump tweets and entertains himself with from time to time doesn't matter to me either. You should also know that I didn't believe/buy in Mueller/Trump-Russia collusion stuff to begin with like you and everyone on the liberal side either swallowed as gospel or latched on and promoted as the truth either. So, you going to get on Mike's ship and go down with him. Or, are you going to stick with Bernie and pray you don't need any healthcare during the rough transition period as liberals learn another hard lesson about American life and all the freedoms that are attached to it these days. You and most liberals don't seem to learn much from the hard lessons that been given to the liberals lately. Trump believes in us and that's all he has to believe in these days because we've already shown the pesky Republicans what we are willing to do about them and how easy it is for us to let go of them and basically move them to the liberal side these days. So, I assume that democracy must not matter as much to liberals as they claim now that Bloomberg has been obliged and allowed to buy his way into the democratic process unlike Trump. As I recall, Trump was in the Democratic process from the start unlike Bloomberg who needed some rule changes and so forth to enter at this point as a Democratic candidate. I don't know why you are preaching to me and blaming us for all the stuff that we can clearly see that's obviously going on with the Democratic party before your own eyes these days.

[pbrower2a]

(02-18-2020, 05:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: The primary process is starting to look like a circular firing squad. First, they winnow the field in two remarkably unrepresentative states. To aid in this selection, several shoot-from-the-hip debates are held, each with a cast of thousands. No one gets to stand out, so it’s open to media hype more is typical. So far, there is a rotating cast of characters keeping the process media friendly. 

I hope you’re right and the next two contests start to focus on a final candidate, but I’m skeptical. With Mike Bloomberg out there, this could go all the way to the convention. That doesn’t bode well for the party of cats.

It must suck having Bloomberg in the mix today. I mean Bloomberg represents everything about the elites that you guys claim to hate. I mean, an actual oligarch running to be your president who has the money to buy and influence every politician/lawmakers on your side with the exception of Bernie maybe.

I do not remember seeing you complain that Donald Trump was in the political mix in 2016. This man offended plenty of conservative sensibilities between his sexual conduct, his serial divorces, his predatory character as a businessman, and his contempt for formal learning. With Trump we have someone who lives for his indulgence, self-esteem, and his image. He believes in nothing but himself. 

If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

Dude, I've never been an Evangelical voter. You should know that the stuff about Trump's past doesn't matter to an American voter like me. You should also know that the silly/ petty stuff Trump tweets and entertains himself with from time to time doesn't matter to me either. You should also know that I didn't believe/buy in Mueller/Trump-Russia collusion stuff to begin with like you and everyone on the liberal side either swallowed as gospel or latched on and promoted as the truth either. So, you going to get on Mike's ship and go down with him. Or, are you going to stick with Bernie and pray you don't need any healthcare during the rough transition period as liberals learn another hard lesson about American life and all the freedoms that are attached to it these days. You and most liberals don't seem to learn much from the hard lessons that been given to the liberals lately. Trump believes in us and that's all he has to believe in these days because we've already shown the pesky Republicans what we are willing to do about them and how easy it is for us to let go of them and basically move them to the liberal side these days. So, I assume that democracy must not matter as much to liberals as they claim now that Bloomberg has been obliged and allowed to buy his way into the democratic process unlike Trump. As I recall, Trump was in the Democratic process from the start unlike Bloomberg who needed some rule changes and so forth to enter at this point as a Democratic candidate. I don't know why you are preaching to me and blaming us for all the stuff that we can clearly see that's obviously going on with the Democratic party before your own eyes these days.

Dude, I am just as American as you are. Indeed I am as American as First Peoples of what would become the United States, descendants of the passengers who disembarked the Mayflower in 1620, of Spaniards who settled in what would become Florida, Texas, Colorado, Arizona, or California before there was a United States of America -- or people brought here to be slaves. .  But I am no more American that a son of two illegal aliens or a naturalized US citizen. I also recognize that I am no less American that people with a religious tradition unlike mine. Let me make this abundantly clear: being an American does not define what one believes. Relatively few people leave blatant questions about being American. 

To no longer be an American requires that one renounce US citizenship, whether for benign reasons (did Meghan Markle renounce US citizenship to marry into the British royal family?) or adopting Canadian or British citizenship in a desire to wage war against Satan Incarnate before 1942 (so that one would be a lawful combatant) or evil ones (joining a criminal, terrorist, totalitarian movement such as ISIS. OK, so my musical tastes are clearly un-American (my CD collection reeks "Central European"). Need I love country music to be an American?  

Something is not good or evil because it is American. Should a tornado pick me up and smash me into a brick building, killing me, then that tornado is American. I may not be the sort of person who gets bitten by a rattlesnake (most who are bitten are drunk at the time and are bitten on their hands or face and not the feet or lower legs as one might expect if rattlers largely bit people who work outside or do outside recreation). Any rattlesnake that I am likely to see in America (rattlers are as afraid of me for my heavy tread or the fangs of any canine companion as I am of them) is American. I am in practice more likely to encounter rabid wildlife or an angry moose or deer than a rattlesnake. That deer or moose (or such a large carnivore as a bear, cougar, or dog) is American, too. (Don't believe me about dogs being lethal? One of the best simulations of the danger of the Sundarbans, a swamp in the Ganges delta in which man-eating tigers lurk, is to break into a dog-infested house. Dogs are built much like tigers... and attack as one giant predator if in a group).  

I disagree with you on what the Mueller probe showed. Mueller put together a strong case that makes me believe that President Trump at the least is a fellow traveler of the dictatorial Russian Federation.  The military, CIA, or FBI would prosecute him if he were such a fellow traveler of a country hostile to American democracy and foreign policy.

Let's look at  John Bolton, a reactionary piece of work whom I do not fully trust. This man may be a warmonger, but he knows lines not to cross. War-mongering is legal in America, but blackmailing an ally or complicity in potential war crimes is not. John Bolton called the deal that President Trump tried  to foist upon President Zelensky of Ukraine a "drug deal" -- something easy to do, but extremely unwise. Bolton has no desire to face the Hague tribunal for war crimes (which includes threatening to destroy cultural sites of another country) or the American legal system for complicity in Trump misdeeds. He may be no hero, but neither is he a fool.

Considering the threat that Donald Trump poses upon American democracy, his opposition would have to be egregious in the extreme to cause me to vote for him. 

If there are any  lessons that we liberals can glean from Donald Trump, those include:

that character is cause of behavior, for good or ill
that amoral and immoral people do great harm when in charge of great enterprises
that even American democracy is shaky should a sociopath become President
that the Founding Fathers got much right (except on slavery and male supremacy) that Trump has gotten very wrong
that hollow people like Trump are unfit to wield the awesome power of the Presidency
that people who dissent with evil deeds of the political leaderships exercise the purest patriotism 
that, given a choice between truth and ideology, that truth is preferable 
that demagoguery might work to win elections but it makes horrid social policy

I am sure that Bob Butler, David Horn, or Eric the Green could pile on upon your folly.

How bad is Trump? As I see it, the next conservative President that America elects who proves to be any good will act much more like Barack Obama than like Donald Trump. Obama is cogent, ethical, and wise.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

In America, representing the new values and switching to the new values puts you in a rather elite club.  Can you picture going into a group that currently consists of Washington, Lincoln and FDR?  It is worth skipping out of one’s oligarch station and making a few enemies among the robber barons to get there.  The allies one would pick up in the process would compensate.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-18-2020, 08:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I disagree with you on what the Mueller probe showed. Mueller put together a strong case that makes me believe that President Trump at the least is a fellow traveler of the dictatorial Russian Federation.  The military, CIA, or FBI would prosecute him if he were such a fellow traveler of a country hostile to American democracy and foreign policy.

Lets see, you have a Soviet believer as an option and an oligarch who places himself and his values above all in importance as an option. Are you cool with that? I'm cool with it because that seem to be your choices? You can pick your poison and determine your own fate at this point. I figure half the country has already decided that its moving on without the Progressives at this point. The Progressives haven't come to grips with that yet. So, do we really need win a nasty war with Progressives to make sure that happens or are you and every other liberal smart enough to go along and allow that to happen at this point. I'm sure the Progressives will have enough crumbs to keep you alive for a while but I can't guarantee whatever crumbs you get won't be taken away by some foreigner who is viewed as being more valuable or more preferential than you.

I'm sure the blue world loves you enough to help you survive. I mean they didn't love the Bosnian's enough or the Jews or the Assyrians enough but I'm sure they'll love you enough because you are way more important to them than any of those people. Once we are separated, what you decide is best for and the country you end up with isn't going to matter to us. I mean, who knows you might end up living in Obamagrad or the former American city of Chicago or the nation of Bloomberg with Bloomberg deciding what's best for you or god forbid the Peoples Republic of California or some Islamic State that gives itself  the power to round up and behead infidels. Yes, this sounds pretty fucked up but that's what happens when fucked up people give fucked up people power. Yes, you can point at Trump and criticize him about this or that and accuse him of being this or that as I point to your people and ask you about them and ask you why you're supporting people who represent ideologies and power mongers that you claim to hate and often claim to fear the most these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-18-2020, 08:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I am sure that Bob Butler, David Horn, or Eric the Green could pile on upon your folly.

How bad is Trump? As I see it, the next conservative President that America elects who proves to be any good will act much more like Barack Obama than like Donald Trump. Obama is cogent, ethical, and wise.

Unfortunately, Trump ain't that bad of a President. He's actually turned out to be a pretty damn good President. I'm sure that Bob, David and Eric could try and do it again themselves without all the additional support that they had back in the day. But, I'm sure they already know that the outcome would not end in their favor. You're fortunate that you weren't around when the left wing lunatics where at their peak during the Bush years. Today, you have a group of liberal dimwits in the House and a group of liberal dim wits in the Senate and a bunch of liberal dim wits hanging out in private forums catering to liberal dim wit supporters or posting on public forums about scary shit that no one else seems to care about these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-18-2020, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

In America, representing the new values and switching to the new values puts you in a rather elite club.  Can you picture going into a group that currently consists of Washington, Lincoln and FDR?  It is worth skipping out of one’s oligarch station and making a few enemies among the robber barons to get there.  The allies one would pick up in the process would compensate.

So, what do you think Bob, is blue America on the right track? Do you think Bernie and Bloomberg can muster enough wealth to keep you funded, the UN funded, the illegal immigrant population funded, the legal refugee population funded, the existing welfare population funded, the big city streets paved, the big city police forces adequately sized and supplied, the big city liberal institutions and its infrastructure and all the corruption funded and continue not enforcing laws and continue looking the other way as farmers and workers are getting the shaft by corporations and global conglomerates like its doing today. I'm a hard sell because I'm not a Democratic believer any more than I'm a Catholic believer or a socialist believer these days.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-19-2020, 01:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

In America, representing the new values and switching to the new values puts you in a rather elite club.  Can you picture going into a group that currently consists of Washington, Lincoln and FDR?  It is worth skipping out of one’s oligarch station and making a few enemies among the robber barons to get there.  The allies one would pick up in the process would compensate.

So, what do you think Bob, is blue America on the right track? Do you think Bernie and Bloomberg can muster enough wealth to keep you funded, the UN funded, the illegal immigrant population funded, the legal refugee population funded, the existing welfare population funded, the big city streets paved, the big city police forces adequately sized and supplied, the big city liberal institutions and its infrastructure and all the corruption funded and continue not enforcing laws and continue looking the other way as farmers and workers are getting the shaft by corporations and global conglomerates like its doing today. I'm a hard sell because I'm not a Democratic believer any more than I'm a Catholic believer or a socialist believer these days.

My GI father had a favorite saying, one he uttered to his Boomer son it seems far too often. “The problem is, you feel like the world owes you a living.” He knew better. He grew up in such bad times that he knew the world owed him nothing. He would have to seize it. That thought eventually stuck. Like much of my generation, I put enough into school to get a decent job and saved for retirement. Today I get flack for it.

That seems to me to be the biggest difference between the GIs and their supposed heirs as civics, the Millennials. The Millennials are so used to daddy as an individual and the boomers in general taking care of them that they really do believe the world owes them a living. If they can’t save for retirement, no big deal. The world owes them a living. It must be a nice belief to have, the idea that the cliff they are speeding towards must not exist seems neat.

From the New Deal through Great Society we lived in a progressive era. If there was a problem, they would solve it by big government throwing large amounts of money at it. It sort of worked. A lot of problems were seen and dealt with. The problem was that even the GIs eventually got tired of solving problems, tired of the changes that came with it.

The result was the conservative era. Smaller government. Tax cuts. Surrender in the war on poverty. Voodoo economics periodically crashed the economy. Don’t save for retirement. Division of wealth. Subtle racism. A dominant philosophy by a party which served the elites more than the people. Jobs abroad. Ignoring looming problems by simply pretending they don’t exist.

So if you ask if we can fund it, right now, taking the temperature of the country overall, no. Years of small government favoring the racists and elites has left us in a lousy position to fund our way out of a paper bag.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t a lurking desire to make America great again. Even the conservatives are feeling the itch. Step one might be spending like America was great again. But people aren’t ready for that. They want it both ways. They ask not what they can do for their country, but what their country can do for them. That’s no way to be great. The idea that they may have to put in as individuals to get back as a generation is alien to them. They are not the GIs. Not close. That was long ago.

I guess that too is why the T4T forums that have survived are tending to favor progressives. It is the difference between linear and cyclical thinking. When one pattern has gone on for a turning or two, will it continue? Or do you expect the point of diminishing returns for that pattern has long since been passed, that the opposite pattern ought to be tried again? The linear thinkers think that if two turnings have worked, why not three or four? The cyclical thinkers are wondering just when the pendulum will start swinging the other way.

I am one of those waiting for the pendulum to turn.

[David Horn]

(02-18-2020, 12:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-17-2020, 09:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:The elites are a key.  You cannot solve all of the above without attacking elites and the division of wealth.  The elites have extra extraordinary influence in government which has kept the other issues alive.  I do not see how to seek victory in most of the issues above without going after the elites and division of wealth.  

But you aren’t going to defeat the elites without hitting some of the other issues.  You have to expose the flaws in the Republican policies, to take away the elite’s votes.

It comes back to convincing someone like Classic Xer.  He is just a proxy for his 'Americans'.  He doesn’t think much of the elites.  In fact, he puts them in the liberal camp somehow.  But if you don’t convince people who think like him to let go of the other issues, you get nowhere.

Of course, you’re correct in arguing for enticing away elite supporters who are not among the elite themselves. Sadly, they believe they have more in common with the rich and powerful, because they think the opposition supports slackers and whiny beggars. Never mind that this is wrong, and the real whiners tend to be the ones they idolize. Just look at our “hardworking corporate farmers” who’ve been rewarded with more tax money than we used for the equally scummy auto bailouts. They see it and they just don’t care.

It doesn’t help that many in the progressive avant-garde reinforce their stereotypes. It takes a Michael Moore to get through to them, and he’s not available in quantity.

Micheal Moore is a joke. He knows it which is why he means nothing and he's basically powerless today.  The dude lied for a living and he made millions off you guys while doing it.

Care to cite a few of his “lies”. He fact checks pretty well for someone in an advocacy role. Compared to the Orange One, he’s a paragon of veracity.

[David Horn]

(02-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: The primary process is starting to look like a circular firing squad. First, they winnow the field in two remarkably unrepresentative states. To aid in this selection, several shoot-from-the-hip debates are held, each with a cast of thousands. No one gets to stand out, so it’s open to media hype more is typical. So far, there is a rotating cast of characters keeping the process media friendly. 

I hope you’re right and the next two contests start to focus on a final candidate, but I’m skeptical. With Mike Bloomberg out there, this could go all the way to the convention. That doesn’t bode well for the party of cats.

It must suck having Bloomberg in the mix today. I mean Bloomberg represents everything about the elites that you guys claim to hate. I mean, an actual oligarch running to be your president who has the money to buy and influence every politician/lawmakers on your side with the exception of Bernie maybe.

Actually, you also have to add Tom Steyer. The Dems are at least conflicted about this. The Republicans are all-in for the phony oligarch come carnival barker they elected (sorta) in 2016. His main goals: enrich himself (his fortune may be just about gone by now), and destroy the country’s institutional infrastructure, so he can get away with his first and primary goal. 

Why are you attracted to scum?

[David Horn]

(02-18-2020, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

In America, representing the new values and switching to the new values puts you in a rather elite club.  Can you picture going into a group that currently consists of Washington, Lincoln and FDR?  It is worth skipping out of one’s oligarch station and making a few enemies among the robber barons to get there.  The allies one would pick up in the process would compensate.

Do you see either Bloomberg or Steyer being that guy?  I think Steyer is more on-track than Bloomberg, but neither should be the Dems choice. My $0.02.

[Marypoza]

(02-19-2020, 10:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

In America, representing the new values and switching to the new values puts you in a rather elite club.  Can you picture going into a group that currently consists of Washington, Lincoln and FDR?  It is worth skipping out of one’s oligarch station and making a few enemies among the robber barons to get there.  The allies one would pick up in the process would compensate.

Do you see either Bloomberg or Steyer being that guy?  I think Steyer is more on-track than Bloomberg, but neither should be the Dems choice. My $0.02.

-- Bernie 2020 accept no substitutes

[pbrower2a]

(02-19-2020, 10:39 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: The primary process is starting to look like a circular firing squad. First, they winnow the field in two remarkably unrepresentative states. To aid in this selection, several shoot-from-the-hip debates are held, each with a cast of thousands. No one gets to stand out, so it’s open to media hype more is typical. So far, there is a rotating cast of characters keeping the process media friendly. 

I hope you’re right and the next two contests start to focus on a final candidate, but I’m skeptical. With Mike Bloomberg out there, this could go all the way to the convention. That doesn’t bode well for the party of cats.

It must suck having Bloomberg in the mix today. I mean Bloomberg represents everything about the elites that you guys claim to hate. I mean, an actual oligarch running to be your president who has the money to buy and influence every politician/lawmakers on your side with the exception of Bernie maybe.

Actually, you also have to add Tom Steyer. The Dems are at least conflicted about this. The Republicans are all-in for the phony oligarch come carnival barker they elected (sorta) in 2016. His main goals: enrich himself (his fortune may be just about gone by now), and destroy the country’s institutional infrastructure, so he can get away with his first and primary goal. 

Why are you attracted to scum?

Donald Trump is scum. Were he born into the middle class his acquisitive desire would have made him a used-car salesman at a tote-the-note lot. Or maybe he would set up a rent-to-own emporium in which he sells schlock furniture and electronics to unsophisticated customers at high retail and with an implicitly high interest rate. In view of his sex drive, I could imagine how he would get attractive young women short of cash the down payment. I will leave that to your imagination; I do not do pornography.

The middle class conforms, goes disreputable, or sinks into the proletariat (where the work is real and generally ill-paid unless one is a skilled worker). But it does not enter the economic elite except perhaps through marriage -- you know: be Miss Missouri and some Texas oilman might find you sexy even if he is forty years older.

.....................

Back to the generational theory: a 3T brings institutional rot that at the least wise or nearly-wise (I put myself in the latter category) readily see. Culture becomes loosey-goosey, and people start acting as if nothing matters except personal bliss. "Sex and drugs and rock-and-roll"... with material comfort and bureaucratic power to go with it. Families splinter, institutional loyalty vanishes, entertainment becomes increasingly mindless, politics degrade into identity politics, religion often becomes the Prosperity Gospel or offers theatrical excitement, people scrap rational judgment and business practices go into the sewer, and people are looking for the quick gain on Easy Street. An infamous depiction of such came in the 1920's with the article "Sex O'Clock in America" in the Saturday Evening Post. 

Institutional loyalty vanishes so the only way in which to get reliable customers is to destroy consumer choice. The only way in which to make the profits that the economic elite wants is to fleece people who have no meaningful choice and to underpay people so badly that they must become machines of meat. Economic inequality intensifies, and it further breaks down the fabric of society. Economic hardships multiply and magnify while a few get to follow the sick dictum of Aleister Crowley: Do what thou wilt. Someone else will endure the consequences of one's economic, sexual, cultural, and political depravity.

Politics of a 3T tend toward the reactionary -- not the conservative. Institutions rot underneath the impressive edifice, and the solution is not some more gilding or a new paint job. The economic and philosophical contradictions intensify, any sense of community crumbles (except perhaps among people who have traditions 'not for export' even if those traditions include some habits worth emulating. A 4T can go well for a model minority (let us say American Jews in the 1930's) if the political and economic leadership heavily adopts the benign ways. A 4T can go catastrophically badly, as for German Jews in the 1930's, if the political leadership chooses to abuse and dispossess people that have become pariahs. Some German and (in a short window) Austrian Jews fled to America to get away from Satan Incarnate and made solid contributions to American science, culture (especially our cinematic Golden Age), and business. All I can say of Nazi Germany is that there was nothing wrong with the German people that Judaism couldn't  have solved.   


The social and economic collapse comes just in time to show the rakes of the 3T how wrong they were by inflicting upon them the consequences that others were compelled to endure. People who have been indulging themselves on Easy (if tainted) Money find that the gravy train has not only stopped -- but been destroyed.  America reacted well to the great economic meltdown of 1929-1932 with nearly everyone doing his allotted role well, whether in government, business big or small, and labor. The people who didn't?


 

Go too far the wrong way, and you will be blown away or put away. Such came earlier in America than in the gangster world of Nazi Germany, which really went the wrong way. But here is what happens to the highest-ranking member of the Nazi security apparatus to have survived to be captured:



American prosecutors shaped the Nuremberg trials to resemble a prosecution of gangland figures such as some members of the Dillinger gang. The hanged man above was Ernest Kaltenbrunner, the man in charge of the Nazi concentration camps, the most blatant example of organized crime to have ever existed. (American gangsters who killed in the line of their criminal enterprises were electrocuted instead of hanged; the Nazis never introduced the electric chair). 

We are in for some rough times. We have a Crisis Era coming at the very stage of economic development in which making more stuff is no longer a sure way of achieving prosperity. Many of us will be wise to downsize, and the technology that we have allows such. As an example, if one has a laptop computer and even transitory access to the Internet one can get a rich library at one's disposal in Project Gutenberg. YouTube makes an abundant supply of music available to anyone who simply searches. (OK, some of the greatest music ever written has no catchy title, so maybe we need some education to discover that). If one has a giant TV screen one will be able to have a simulation of a desirable view of San Francisco Bay  even if one is in Kansas -- or Kazakhstan. The giant TV screen that simulates a bay window in size is less expensive in real terms than a color console TV of the 1980's because we have better technology at our disposal. 

So how do we adapt? I do not know -- but Donald Trump is certainly a non-answer. We will need more formal education just to cope with the potentialities of a post-scarcity time. We will not have to work as hard to meet basic needs, and those who can exploit a scarcity will probably face high taxes. This is sure: even the oligarchs well know that if the common man has no stake in the system, then the common man will see red -- "red" as in socialist revolution, the sort that dispossesses, exiles, or slaughters a class that exploits, abuses, and humiliates the poor that it treats as livestock at best and vermin at worst. 

Note a big difference between Mike Bloomberg and Donald Trump: Trump has made his reliable income off real property; Bloomberg has made his wealth off intellectual property. Who said that capitalist elites cannot have their own conflicts?

[Warren Dew]

(02-19-2020, 09:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: My GI father had a favorite saying, one he uttered to his Boomer son it seems far too often.  “The problem is, you feel like the world owes you a living.”  He knew better.  He grew up in such bad times that he knew the world owed him nothing.  He would have to seize it.  That thought eventually stuck.  Like much of my generation, I put enough into school to get a decent job and saved for retirement.  Today I get flack for it.

That seems to me to be the biggest difference between the GIs and their supposed heirs as civics, the Millennials.  The Millennials are so used to daddy as an individual and the boomers in general taking care of them that they really do believe the world owes them a living.  If they can’t save for retirement, no big deal.  The world owes them a living.  It must be a nice belief to have, the idea that the cliff they are speeding towards must not exist seems neat.

There's every evidence that the GIs were the exact same way until reality hit them in the form of WWII.  Before that, the Missionaries were taking care of them with the New Deal, WPA, etc., as if the world did owe them a living.

[Eric the Green]

(02-19-2020, 01:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

In America, representing the new values and switching to the new values puts you in a rather elite club.  Can you picture going into a group that currently consists of Washington, Lincoln and FDR?  It is worth skipping out of one’s oligarch station and making a few enemies among the robber barons to get there.  The allies one would pick up in the process would compensate.

So, what do you think Bob, is blue America on the right track? Do you think Bernie and Bloomberg can muster enough wealth to keep you funded, the UN funded, the illegal immigrant population funded, the legal refugee population funded, the existing welfare population funded, the big city streets paved, the big city police forces adequately sized and supplied, the big city liberal institutions and its infrastructure and all the corruption funded and continue not enforcing laws and continue looking the other way as farmers and workers are getting the shaft by corporations and global conglomerates like its doing today. I'm a hard sell because I'm not a Democratic believer any more than I'm a Catholic believer or a socialist believer these days.

I don't think many of the people caught up in the "red state" mindset that Classic Xer is caught up in are going to change their minds. They should, if they ever understood that it is not liberals, progressives and Democrats who are giving them the shaft just by taxing them in reasonable amounts, but the very corporate big shots whom they vote for who are giving them such shaft as they receive. No, I'm afraid most of those in the red mindset will stay there until they die, and no amount of polite argument or discussion will change it. The blue side needs to rally their forces, and make their case clear to those few in the middle who switch from side to side depending on the cosmic tide. There is no substitute for victory in a 4T. Lincoln said it, MacArthur said it. Compromise fails in a 4T. We have to gird for battle and win it.

The Classic Xers of the world fail to recognize that the blue side pays the bills and the red side gets the welfare in the form of military bases and welfare payments. The big corporations which they vote for are the ones who don't pay livable wages, forcing their workers onto the welfare they so revile. And the red staters like Classic Xer will never recognize that illegals are not the cause of the higher taxes that so frighten them, because the illegals work and add to the economy, and because they take the jobs that no-one else will take and for which the corporations need them and hide them. The red staters will continue to point to the blue cities and their problems, which they have to fund entirely by themselves because the right-wing neo-liberals they vote for already refuse to help them. Red staters like Classic Xer even see that the corporations and global conglomerates are giving farmers and workers the shaft, but they refuse to see that by voting for these corporate conglomerates as they do, the corporate conglomerates continue to do exactly that without any legal restraints put upon them.

The red staters like Classic Xer would sooner allow the corporate conglomerates to have their way with laissez faire and lower taxes (the neo-liberal program and the major Republican Party platform plank) which allow them to get richer and more powerful at everyone else's expense, if it means they can keep their AK-47s ready and loaded and can carry them and parade them on the streets of blue cities. The red staters would rather defend their superstitions like fundamentalist Christianity, climate science denial, creationism, and "right to life" anti-abortion crusades than to vote for candidates who might impose higher taxes and regulations on the big billionaires and global conglomerates and make them pay their share and behave like good citizens.

[David Horn]

(02-19-2020, 01:55 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(02-19-2020, 09:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: My GI father had a favorite saying, one he uttered to his Boomer son it seems far too often.  “The problem is, you feel like the world owes you a living.”  He knew better.  He grew up in such bad times that he knew the world owed him nothing.  He would have to seize it.  That thought eventually stuck.  Like much of my generation, I put enough into school to get a decent job and saved for retirement.  Today I get flack for it.

That seems to me to be the biggest difference between the GIs and their supposed heirs as civics, the Millennials.  The Millennials are so used to daddy as an individual and the boomers in general taking care of them that they really do believe the world owes them a living.  If they can’t save for retirement, no big deal.  The world owes them a living.  It must be a nice belief to have, the idea that the cliff they are speeding towards must not exist seems neat.

There's every evidence that the GIs were the exact same way until reality hit them in the form of WWII.  Before that, the Missionaries were taking care of them with the New Deal, WPA, etc., as if the world did owe them a living.

I’m not sure I really want to go down this road, but here goes anyway. Flash: the Millennial generation is saving like crazy. That’s particularly true, considering their tendency to be underemployed. What they aren’t doing is buying houses. Other than that, they are AOG in comparison to both Gen-X and their mostly Boomer parents. I know that runs counter to accepted wisdom but it’s true nonetheless. 

We can also discuss deficit financing in the age of too much savings. The old rules are collapsing and the new ones are counterintuitive. But the math doesn’t lie. It’s one of the main reasons the stock market keeps going up when it is clearly overvalued. FWIW, I haven’t adjusted to the new economy either.

[Eric the Green]

(02-17-2020, 09:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:The elites are a key.  You cannot solve all of the above without attacking elites and the division of wealth.  The elites have extra extraordinary influence in government which has kept the other issues alive.  I do not see how to seek victory in most of the issues above without going after the elites and division of wealth.  

But you aren’t going to defeat the elites without hitting some of the other issues.  You have to expose the flaws in the Republican policies, to take away the elite’s votes.

It comes back to convincing someone like Classic Xer.  He is just a proxy for his 'Americans'.  He doesn’t think much of the elites.  In fact, he puts them in the liberal camp somehow.  But if you don’t convince people who think like him to let go of the other issues, you get nowhere.

Of course, you’re correct in arguing for enticing away elite supporters who are not among the elite themselves. Sadly, they believe they have more in common with the rich and powerful, because they think the opposition supports slackers and whiny beggars. Never mind that this is wrong, and the real whiners tend to be the ones they idolize. Just look at our “hardworking corporate farmers” who’ve been rewarded with more tax money than we used for the equally scummy auto bailouts. They see it and they just don’t care.

It doesn’t help that many in the progressive avant-garde reinforce their stereotypes. It takes a Michael Moore to get through to them, and he’s not available in quantity.

Exactly so. Just imagine I am pressing a "like" button. (for both above posts, actually )

[Classic-Xer]

(02-19-2020, 10:39 AM)David Horn Wrote: Actually, you also have to add Tom Steyer. The Dems are at least conflicted about this. The Republicans are all-in for the phony oligarch come carnival barker they elected (sorta) in 2016. His main goals: enrich himself (his fortune may be just about gone by now), and destroy the country’s institutional infrastructure, so he can get away with his first and primary goal. 

Why are you attracted to scum?

Tom Steyer is nobody. Bloomberg is somebody with a government title. Bloomberg wanted to be mayor of New York and he used his wealth to make it happen and probably used his position to further enrich himself and protect the wealth of the elites who still live in NYC by leaching off the Federal government. I mean, our mayor is doing the same thing as Bloomberg and every other Democratic mayor of a reddish city. You see, you don't want to tax the American working class to support liberal programs because the American working class will turn on you these days. I'm not attracted to scum as you say.  You should know that I don't think much of scum regardless of their race, class or gender. Do you know what scum is/does? In case you don't know, Micheal Avenatti is scum. Al Sharpton is scum. AOC is borderline scum. Omar is scum. She looks good, smells good, sounds intelligent and believes she's all that but she's scum. I don't care if you're dumb enough to tie your future, your grand kids future and place your hopes on people like them. I don't care if you're kid, grand kid is dumb enough to jump off a bridge when their system goes down in flames and violence either.

Trump isn't scum in my opinion. Trump is a hands on businessman who has been around the block so to speak. Trump is running circles around the dim wits that the Progressive system either advanced or promoted for whatever reason these days. Trump is losing a fortune while trying to fix problems and strengthen a depleted middle class like a Democrat should be doing instead of a Republican right now. Like I've said, Trump reminds me of good old Teddy Roosevelt. Yes, that is how fucked up and off track and out of whack the Democratic party is values wise today. So, what American value seems to be most important today. Any idea, what does the liberal oriented poll say? Any idea if the poll is accurate? Any idea???? But then again, the Democratic party ain't much about anything important to most Americans these days. Well, that ain't my problem dude. That's a Democratic problem and as you know, I have no interest in the Democratic party whatsoever these days.

I mean, Trump is the best center right Democrat that America has seen in office since JFK was assassinated. Was JFK scum in your opinion? Hell, FDR and Obama should also be scum in your opinion? So, what are you going to do when America basically parts ways with the Progressives and the bill collectors start calling your politicians? Hopefully, you luck out and die before that happens because your billionaires don't have enough to support all the liberals and Progressives these days. You don't have to worry about red America or America as I say because red America has already proven that it does a pretty good job taking care of its own people. So, that's where you are at in my opinion.

The Left keeps making the mistake of believing that we will remain together as a nation because we have to for some reason despite conventional wisdom teaching us that nothing is guaranteed to last forever these days with all the freedoms that exist within America today. Dude, only a liberal would support a clueless black because they're black or a cunt because they're a woman or a nice looking clean cut popular gay guy because they're gay or an average Latino woman who happens to be a judge because they're a Latino woman and only a Progressive who doesn't give a shit about anything other than money and power that they have or have gotten being attached would be OK with that and go along with that as being a norm. Like I've said, a system like this is destined to fail and whatever institutions that are functioning like it are destined to fail along with it and whatever laws associated with it that empower it are destined to be removed as well.

I assume that Trump will most likely spend the bulk of his time out of office recouping his losses. I don't have a problem with that anymore than I have a problem with Obama enriching himself today or Gore enriching himself by selling global warming or Clinton enriching himself by selling political influence or even Bernie enriching himself by writing some book or Micheal Moore enriching himself by taking advantage of people like you either.

[Eric the Green]

You are not attracted to scum, Classic Xer? Anyone paying attention knows that Trump is worse than scum.

Democrats don't necessarily choose their candidates based on their group identity, as you claim. Kamala Harris lost because she was not a good candidate. The people of either party choose the candidates that they connect best with and seem ready for the job. If the gay guy is the one, the Democrats will choose him. According to my reckonings though, they won't.

YOUR party is the one that chooses candidates based on group identity. That's what social conservatives such as you Republican voters DO. Only white guys are allowed.

[pbrower2a]

(02-19-2020, 12:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I disagree with you on what the Mueller probe showed. Mueller put together a strong case that makes me believe that President Trump at the least is a fellow traveler of the dictatorial Russian Federation.  The military, CIA, or FBI would prosecute him if he were such a fellow traveler of a country hostile to American democracy and foreign policy.

Lets see, you have a Soviet believer as an option and an oligarch who places himself and his values above all in importance as an option. Are you cool with that? I'm cool with it because that seem to be your choices? You can pick your poison and determine your own fate at this point. I figure half the country has already decided that its moving on without the Progressives at this point. The Progressives haven't come to grips with that yet. So, do we really need win a nasty war with Progressives to make sure that happens or are you and every other liberal smart enough to go along and allow that to happen at this point. I'm sure the Progressives will have enough crumbs to keep you alive for a while but I can't guarantee whatever crumbs you get won't be taken away by some foreigner who is viewed as being more valuable or more preferential than you.

Whatever I am not a Marxist-Leninist. I now consider Soviet ideology failed and obsolete. But so is yours. 

Quote: I'm sure the blue world loves you enough to help you survive. I mean they didn't love the Bosnian's enough or the Jews or the Assyrians enough  but I'm sure they'll love you enough because you are way more important to them  than any of those people. Once we are separated,   what you decide is best for and the country you end up with  isn't going to matter to us. I mean, who knows you might end up living in Obamagrad or the former American city of Chicago or the nation of  Bloomberg with Bloomberg deciding what's best for you or god forbid the Peoples Republic of California or some Islamic State that gives itself  the power to round up and behead infidels. Yes, this sounds pretty fucked up but that's what happens when fucked up people give fucked up people power. Yes, you can point at Trump and criticize him about this or that and accuse him of being this or that as I point to your people and ask you about them and ask you why you're supporting people who represent ideologies and power mongers that you claim to hate and often claim to fear the most these days.

I have my virtues, and those should be good enough for survival.

[Eric the Green]

(02-19-2020, 12:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I disagree with you on what the Mueller probe showed. Mueller put together a strong case that makes me believe that President Trump at the least is a fellow traveler of the dictatorial Russian Federation.  The military, CIA, or FBI would prosecute him if he were such a fellow traveler of a country hostile to American democracy and foreign policy.

Lets see, you have a Soviet believer as an option and an oligarch who places himself and his values above all in importance as an option. Are you cool with that? I'm cool with it because that seem to be your choices? You can pick your poison and determine your own fate at this point. I figure half the country has already decided that its moving on without the Progressives at this point. The Progressives haven't come to grips with that yet. So, do we really need win a nasty war with Progressives to make sure that happens or are you and every other liberal smart enough to go along and allow that to happen at this point. I'm sure the Progressives will have enough crumbs to keep you alive for a while but I can't guarantee whatever crumbs you get won't be taken away by some foreigner who is viewed as being more valuable or more preferential than you.

I'm sure the blue world loves you enough to help you survive. I mean they didn't love the Bosnian's enough or the Jews or the Assyrians enough  but I'm sure they'll love you enough because you are way more important to them  than any of those people. Once we are separated,   what you decide is best for and the country you end up with  isn't going to matter to us. I mean, who knows you might end up living in Obamagrad or the former American city of Chicago or the nation of  Bloomberg with Bloomberg deciding what's best for you or god forbid the Peoples Republic of California or some Islamic State that gives itself  the power to round up and behead infidels. Yes, this sounds pretty fucked up but that's what happens when fucked up people give fucked up people power. Yes, you can point at Trump and criticize him about this or that and accuse him of being this or that as I point to your people and ask you about them and ask you why you're supporting people who represent ideologies and power mongers that you claim to hate and often claim to fear the most these days.

As Sanders said tonight, calling him a communist is a "cheap shot." Sanders is not poison, he is a cure. If you reactionaries get your way, the nation and world will not survive. Your red nation believes that no further progress toward a just and workable society should ever be made. I think the next 8-9 years are a time of choosing, whether we go forward again after 40 years of the stagnation, decline and regression that you have supported, or whether we decline into a banana-republic, oligarchic tyranny dominated by a cultist, crazy authoritarian dictator, and the world suffers irreversible climate damage. The blues will not go along with you. Demographic changes are on our side, while the blocks you guys have erected are on yours. 

The cosmic tides make clear that the new America will rise up and blast through your dams, walls and roadblocks and make America truly American again. So you will have to decide what to do as the waters rise literally rise around you. Will you secede? To that I say, go ahead, and don't bother to close the door on your way out. We don't need you. Will you violently rebel? If so, we will crush you, jail you, and take away your guns for good.