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Was 911 & the Cultural Aftermath/Change in National Mood Part of This Crisis Period?
#1
Was 911 and the following affect on American culture along with the several wars after 911 and the change in national mood part of the Crisis portion of this saeculum we are now in?

If not, why? 

If you think it was, let's discuss exactly how it was part of this Crisis period along with the 2008 financial crisis.  I come from a place these two things have composed the Crisis that is on the way out.  Feel free to disagree but please don't say the same things that have been said over and over.  Either 911 was just a random thing that happened and was no part of the Crisis or it WAS part of the Crisis and some people's yearly brackets for Turnings need to be adjusted by half a decade or so.
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#2
(06-02-2018, 08:23 AM)TheNomad Wrote: Was 911 and the following affect on American culture along with the several wars after 911 and the change in national mood part of the Crisis portion of this saeculum we are now in?

If not, why?

No, because America turned back quickly to an Unraveling mood. The President told people to "travel" and "go shopping", much in contrast to the response to the Pearl Harbor attack. After "the Date that will live in Infamy", America quickly put an end to luxury production and started rationing. The government pushed war bonds and military production. Young men in large numbers signed up for military service at the expense of lucrative civilian careers. 

The only high-prominence sport, film star to sacrifice his career on behalf of his country was NFL star Pat Tillman, who eventually died for his choice. What equivalent of Jimmy Stewart or Ted Williams joined the US Armed Forces after 9/11? From 2001 the government promoted a speculative boom in real estate, including such rip-offs as mortgages with negative amortization. Maybe journalists tried to compare 9/11 to Pearl Harbor, but the generational cycle suggests that such timing was off. Those journalists gave up on that talk quickly as nothing came to resemble the American response to World War II pulling America in.
 
Quote:If you think it was, let's discuss exactly how it was part of this Crisis period along with the 2008 financial crisis.  I come from a place these two things have composed the Crisis that is on the way out.  Feel free to disagree but please don't say the same things that have been said over and over.  Either 911 was just a random thing that happened and was no part of the Crisis or it WAS part of the Crisis and some people's yearly brackets for Turnings need to be adjusted by half a decade or so.

I'll give you a very good match: the peak of stock market valuations in 2007 (just before a meltdown of stock prices over the next year and a half) was roughly 78 years after the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929 (just before a three-year meltdown in stock prices). After a year and a half the percentage amounts of the declines for both meltdowns at nearly the same sickening level:

[Image: 114de14297ba10a0ddef0a90b63fe5b1.png]

Not-so-good matches:

Democrats took over majorities in both Houses of Congress in 2006, which is 76 years after the Democrats took over both Houses of Congress in 1930 -- but for reasons having nothing to do with economic performance. I see Dubya telescoping the failures of Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover into  eight years instead of twelve years. Barack Obama got elected to the Presidency 76 years after FDR, both having controversies about their origins. FDR was supposedly Jewish (false) and part of some international Jewish conspiracy for world domination (there is none), and Barack Obama was allegedly born in Kenya (false) and thus not a US citizen (false, as his father was a British subject and his mother was a US citizen, the latter being enough to give him birthright citizenship in the USA even if he had been born in Kenya).

Obama started rescuing the banks early to prevent an equivalent of the latter year-and-a-half of the economic meltdown that had begun in September 1929; FDR would be unable to do so until more than three years into the market meltdown. But Obama effectively rescued the people who would  lavish money on any politician who concurred with them that no human suffering short of slavery and human trafficking could ever be in excess so long as it turns, indulges, and enforces profit for the Master Class of owners and the astronomical compensation of America's executive elite.  By 2017 we have gotten the most anti-human government since the Gilded Age, complete with a President who holds America's old democratic allies in contempt and admires dictators like Putin and Xi.

If FDR eventually turned America into the Arsenal of Democracy, Trump puts America at risk of becoming another Evil Empire -- a right-wing mirror image of the Brezhnev era in the Soviet Union.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#3
No, because America turned back quickly to an Unraveling mood. The President told people to "travel" and "go shopping", much in contrast to the response to the Pearl Harbor attack. After "the Date that will live in Infamy", America quickly put an end to luxury production and started rationing. The government pushed war bonds and military production. Young men in large numbers signed up for military service at the expense of lucrative civilian careers. 


The only high-prominence sport, film star to sacrifice his career on behalf of his country was NFL star Pat Tillman, who eventually died for his choice. What equivalent of Jimmy Stewart or Ted Williams joined the US Armed Forces after 9/11? From 2001 the government promoted a speculative boom in real estate, including such rip-offs as mortgages with negative amortization. Maybe journalists tried to compare 9/11 to Pearl Harbor, but the generational cycle suggests that such timing was off. Those journalists gave up on that talk quickly as nothing came to resemble the American response to World War II pulling America in.

I'll address this because the rest was more about the 2008 issue.

The president told people a lot of things.  It is not appropriate that a president told people to do things when that means nothing compared to what the people actually did.  You say all these people signed up to go to war and while true, THAT war was very different from 911.  They tried as hard as they could to make it the same scenario but due to the large common feeling those wars were about lies and not about protecting anything American, we did have some who hurried to sign up and fight but not so many (as you have astutely made clear). 

If you don't think 911 is a "date that will live in infamy" I think that is a misnomer on your part.  Everyone knows where they were on that date, there were massive changes to our society that still linger today, the mere mention of that date is in everyone's mind who were alive then and even those who were not born yet.  Just like WWII a slew of war films came from 911 when prior to that a war film was probably unheard of as anything anyone would want to see in a theater or for entertainment.  

You seem to only want to accept 911 as part of the Crisis of this saeculum when in your mind it mirrors your views on what happened due to a pearl harbor event.  Again, I make the claim most of your insights are somewhat wholly subjective.  Subjectivity is what needs to be abandoned to find realism.  Subjectivity is an echo chamber.  It serves no one.  However, as I keep saying, subjectivity is the defining trait of your generation.
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#4
Maybe it's our different ages, but I thought the phony war against Afghanistan (phony I think largely because the USA did not really fight a war there, at least until 10 years later) and the phony war against Iraq (phony because it was totally unnecessary and based entirely on lies), were NOTHING MORE than just a return to the same old military industrial complex activity that we had been stuck in since Pearl Harbor. It was simply more fall out from Pearl Harbor, rather than from 9-11 itself. It was just an excuse for more limited and phony wars that USA had been dragged into since WWII ended, with America having become the world's policeman.

It is somewhat subjective on our part, at least in your case, but only because 9-11 is an event that happened when you were about 22, and the years between then and the end of the Cold War when you were 10 or so seemed shorter to us than to you. But it had been only 10 years since the previous mis-adventure against Iraq, and that's really nothing. We boomers were mostly against all this; we were the ones who continued to march and protest against these phony wars ever since Vietnam. If we were a subjective generation, that didn't stop us from being the ones who could see through all the lies.

I certainly don't see any "massive changes in society" as a result of 9-11. Whatever changes there were, have been or will be rolled back. Not many are really affected by NSA spying or airport screening, as disturbing as these might be. And just because Trump has succeeded in stirring up prejudice against Muslims, does not mean it was a necessary change that will linger much beyond his mis-administration. Even Bush originally spoke up against it. Now there is an alternative current AGAINST prejudice that is stirring in this country now to push back against Trumpism. Even if there were big "changes" in society after 9-11 (which I deny), they were entirely reactionary and regressive; so if this is what you call a massive change, it's a departure from any previous 4T, because "change" in previous 4Ts has always been progressive.

And the Bush preventive war foreign policy that began in Iraq in 2003 has been repudiated by everyone. Protests and polemics were loud and unceasing in every intelligent sector of society after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There was anything but a national unity of consensus behind these phony wars. On the contrary, the culture wars, the name of our 3T, continued and heated up anyway, and decided the 2004 election. Low level, ongoing war has been the constant trait of this saeculum, and so it continues. These are among the reasons I have always been strongly against the idea that 9-11 started or was part of a crisis mood or fourth turning.

None of that takes away from the traumatic and catastrophic tragedy of 9-11 itself. I agree with you about that, Sir Nomad. It was a major event in USA history, and I knew it was coming too. But, the response to it was not of a 4T nature. And the response merely made the tragedy much worse.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#5
(06-05-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Maybe it's our different ages, but I thought the phony war against Afghanistan (phony I think largely because the USA did not really fight a war there, at least until 10 years later) and the phony war against Iraq (phony because it was totally unnecessary and based entirely on lies), were NOTHING MORE than just a return to the same old military industrial complex activity that we had been stuck in since Pearl Harbor. It was simply more fall out from Pearl Harbor, rather than from 9-11 itself. It was just an excuse for more limited and phony wars that USA had been dragged into since WWII ended, with America having become the world's policeman.

It is somewhat subjective on our part, at least in your case, but only because 9-11 is an event that happened when you were about 22, and the years between then and the end of the Cold War when you were 10 or so seemed shorter to us than to you. But it had been only 10 years since the previous mis-adventure against Iraq, and that's really nothing. We boomers were mostly against all this; we were the ones who continued to march and protest against these phony wars ever since Vietnam. If we were a subjective generation, that didn't stop us from being the ones who could see through all the lies.

I certainly don't see any "massive changes in society" as a result of 9-11. Whatever changes there were, have been or will be rolled back. Not many are really affected by NSA spying or airport screening, as disturbing as these might be. And just because Trump has succeeded in stirring up prejudice against Muslims, does not mean it was a necessary change that will linger much beyond his mis-administration. Even Bush originally spoke up against it. Now there is an alternative current AGAINST prejudice that is stirring in this country now to push back against Trumpism. Even if there were big "changes" in society after 9-11 (which I deny), they were entirely reactionary and regressive; so if this is what you call a massive change, it's a departure from any previous 4T, because "change" in previous 4Ts has always been progressive.

And the Bush preventive war foreign policy that began in Iraq in 2003 has been repudiated by everyone. Protests and polemics were loud and unceasing in every intelligent sector of society after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There was anything but a national unity of consensus behind these phony wars. On the contrary, the culture wars, the name of our 3T, continued and heated up anyway, and decided the 2004 election. Low level, ongoing war has been the constant trait of this saeculum, and so it continues. These are among the reasons I have always been strongly against the idea that 9-11 started or was part of a crisis mood or fourth turning.

None of that takes away from the traumatic and catastrophic tragedy of 9-11 itself. I agree with you about that, Sir Nomad. It was a major event in USA history, and I knew it was coming too. But, the response to it was not of a 4T nature. And the response merely made the tragedy much worse.

I agree with much of this.  As many times in internet exchange, some say the same things as others but in different ways.

I said previously a few times America got hijacked with Military Industry after the cold war began.  Even an outgoing president warned of it in specific terms that we not get swept away in such a new way of life.  Hyper-consumerism came at right around the same time.  It is these two things (the concept of making wealth on the dead in war AND on a more and more isolated consumer from the "vendor").  I have said these are the fruits of the prophet generation............ even though you and others claim you all were against it even up until (shockingly) the 911 wars.  I simply do not see it.

Prophets protested vietnam because they did not want to die.  But as they grew up, they were the ones escalating hyper-capitalism, alienating businesses from consumers, fomenting war through becoming the heads of the Corporations benefiting from those wars, etc.  This really is not about me trying to blame anyone.  It is about WTF happened to America in those pivotal years after WWII and before JFK's killing?  I keep saying there's a dark presence in America since that time and I have explained (in a simple way) what I believe that darkness IS.  How it can be stopped is unknown except that a wave of individuals with a moral compass is needed. 

Now, how this extends to 911.  The dark shit going on behind the scenes still very much exists.  And for some reason, the first people to not want to believe that is the prophet.  Again, the prophet is a malfunction.  I never said dick cheney blew up the World Trade Center.  But to believe and accept there was not 911 collusion with the purpose of manifesting a mass suppression of the American State to achieve legislative and nationalistic ideals is naive.  To say the dominant prophet of 2001 were not the people putting flags on the side of their homes and cars, calling into radio shows using overt racist terms against muslims, and who were (probably) those who DID listen to Bush II who advised them to "keep spending" ran to the mall and bought anything with a Made In America Logo is also naive. 

You say the prophet was protesting?  The government - full mostly with prophets - went to sleep.  I do not remember swaths of marchers on the national mall saying the war was a lie.  I remember none of that.  None of that was on TV, none of it was in the neighborhood, people were very afraid to even voice that opinion due to the massive backlash of - again, the prophet - who loves to take sides.  They love to take sides SO badly, they were offered unity with each other to take a side against any nation they perceived as "muslim" (where, there is no such thing as a MUSLIM NATION just like there is no such thing as a CHRISTIAN AMERICA).  So, those conflicts were accomplished on the back of not only lies from behind the scenes but through the natural and fundamental article of the prophet archetype which is "fight for your ideals at all cost and till your last breath".

It would take me a while to even sit here and list out all the ways America changed after 911.  But, in conjunction with the 2008 robbery, I  think a better picture may enlighten that.  You say "oh it was just a war like the others before it".  But other than pearl harbor (which is actually not a U.S. state... it's so far away) we have never been attacked on our own soil.  And certainly not Avengers Style with debris falling from the sky in a place like New York City.  You say changes after 911 were reactionary and regressive, I say they were planned and executed perfectly - where, shockingly, the ideology and even prolly most of the strategy - was already on the books and was being discussed even before the event happened.  That's the opposite of reactionary. 

You say the 911 wars were repudiated?  I'm laughing.  Not the lol, but actually laughing.  It was ILLEGAL to protest those wars.   Obama "repudiated" the action against Iraq as a Senator and that tape haunted everything for him UNTIL the general populace caught up with the "repudiation" idea.  No one but stray characters were repudiating anything.  They were too busy spray painting everything red white and blue and screaming about how Sharia Law was coming and we need to ban the hijab.  Are you even serious, friend?  Were you in the United States at that time?  I live in THE most liberal places in America and I gave my testimony how my "patriotism" was used as a ploy at my job when they lined us all up in the parking lot to be filmed singing the national anthem for the news that night.  We weren't told any of that was happening.  And that's a perfect example of America in general at that time.  Suddenly, literally the same day or the day after, everyone flew a flag, everyone was bonding with their neighbors over a shared enemy, everyone was a potential bomber at the airport, Americans vanished to secret prisons to be interrogated.............. no one was prepared.  It was a ROLL OUT waiting to be enacted.

The Star Wars prequels offered us Order 66 when one moment the troopers were our protectors, then a moment later they are killing Jedi.

You KNEW 911 was coming?  Please expound!  And don't make us wait!

I never said 911 was itself a Crisis.  I said the wars and legislation that came from it combined with the 2008 theft may have been the Crisis.  At least to my mind, there was a strange 10 years thereabouts between the event of 911 and the economic crisis.  If what I am saying is right, this is not 3 or 8 things, it's a whole bunch of things which taken together could really be the Crisis we are all looking for.

When I'm thinking about how you sort of flippantly describe the 911 wars as "just another MIC scenario" I would more think of Iraq I as that.  It was a war.  It was about oil.  But it was nothing really impacting America... in fact, that president lost the 2nd term hard.  Bush II won in a mandate which he continually referred to as "political capital" he intended to spend which meant more war.  So, to say everyone was protesting and repudiating, he filled a 2nd term over such a thing.  The surrounding cabinet were filled with even more horrible people than the first cabinet and the congress was peeing themselves for fear of a modern McCarthy hearing over non-patriotism.  Non one was ALLOWED to repudiate post 911 actions.  It meant political doom.  The words I can use to describe how the general populace was acting as simply scared shitless.

I do understand it is too much for people to often accept right away that something horrible has happened and that it may have had connections to unseen powers.  But what if the House Committee on Assassinations had been able to access al the JFK records in the 1970s?  What if they had been able to ask the right questions and act prosecutorially on guilty parties?  I keep talking about getting ahead of these ageless scams... but we never do.  Because AGAIN it's mainly the problem prophet who fights everyone over inanities but will never accept that Daddybear in the white house or the cronies in the Lobby Pit could ever plot against them. 

Well god bless those wonderful chosen children born in a high who foreigners eloquently observed maintained full control over their parents.  It's SO all about them, we have to believe 3 separate "angry lone nuts" killed a president, a civil rights leader and a future president (brother of the first one) within the span of 5 years!  Because to them, no one EXCEPT an "angry lone nut" could possibly do something like that.  Their mind cannot handle it.  They grew up in a time when dad never talked about work because it might frighten them to know LIFE ACTUALLY INVOLVES RISK and mom was there 24/7 to ensure their bad dream was quelled with warm milk and a cookie.

Again, we find ourselves living in the PROPHET'S DREAM.  Gulf of Tonkin?  Real.  But, fake.  Oswald's magic bullet?  TOTALLY real.  But, also fake.  A guy with the same last name as a first name doesn't remember shooting RFK... but guilty.  Manchurian Candidate was in theaters 6 years earlier.  Some strange southern hick shoots down MLK because OF COURSE racism.  GUILTY.  It happens once, maybe.  It happens twice, huh?  It happens 3 times?  PROPHET SAYS THEY BELIEVE.  So the rest of us are chained to their dream.

To spin around, what happened to America over the last 80 years or so has left us in a desperate place.  If we only had the will to identify and battle the secret plots that are almost ALWAYS about exploiting the average joe, if we don't have to wait 50 years for information to get released until everyone involved is dead, we could make progress.  911 it is too soon to even say there was some under-handed connections.  People here in this forum are still defying physics with "pancake" theories.  It's too soon.  But what happened in the last decade or so will have enormous impact on America in the century to come.  If we admit something really bad happened and festered after WWII that disenfranchised many and laid out a really bad blueprint for our future, then WHEN can we start getting ahead of these things as they happen?

Is it even possible?  I can see rump starting a war and it happening and people saying "no" but it happens anyway.  I can see that.  I can also see the opposite.  Because at least for me, these kind of things I talk about like hyper-capitalism and wealth over corpses cannot be stopped by lawful regulation but with a combo of that and actual non-psychotic individuals who roll over the average American without any morality whatsoever.  No one can regulate morality.  It must be pre-present.  I am hoping the new Heroes are this, I see signs it may be.  I'm tired of blaming prophets, it does no good.  I just wish they would learn.  Learn ANYTHING.  However, I know boomers well enough that with each passing moment their ideals become more solidified and utterly resistant to change on any level.
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#6
To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).

I read somewhere that the leadership generation is critical to establishing/cementing a transition or not. So, looking at the Boomer age ranges (I think I got the math correct) ...

2001: 41-58 (1943-1960)
1930: 48-70 (1860-1882)
1860: 39-68 (1792-1821)
1773: 50-72 (1701-1723)
1675: 58-87 (1588-1617)

In particular, the top of the age range when a 4T hit the previous four times ranged from 68-87. This marks the removal of the Silents from active roles in society. A max age of 58 equates to a heck of a lot of silents still actively in leadership positions across society. So no, I don't see how 2001 could have been part of the crisis.
"But there's a difference between error and dishonesty, and it's not a trivial difference." - Ben Greenman
"Relax, it'll be all right, and by that I mean it will first get worse."
"How was I supposed to know that there'd be consequences for my actions?" - Gina Linetti
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#7
(06-04-2018, 07:31 PM)TheNomad Wrote: No, because America turned back quickly to an Unraveling mood. The President told people to "travel" and "go shopping", much in contrast to the response to the Pearl Harbor attack. After "the Date that will live in Infamy", America quickly put an end to luxury production and started rationing. The government pushed war bonds and military production. Young men in large numbers signed up for military service at the expense of lucrative civilian careers. 


The only high-prominence sport, film star to sacrifice his career on behalf of his country was NFL star Pat Tillman, who eventually died for his choice. What equivalent of Jimmy Stewart or Ted Williams joined the US Armed Forces after 9/11? From 2001 the government promoted a speculative boom in real estate, including such rip-offs as mortgages with negative amortization. Maybe journalists tried to compare 9/11 to Pearl Harbor, but the generational cycle suggests that such timing was off. Those journalists gave up on that talk quickly as nothing came to resemble the American response to World War II pulling America in.


Quote:I'll address this because the rest was more about the 2008 issue.

The president told people a lot of things.  It is not appropriate that a president told people to do things when that means nothing compared to what the people actually did.  You say all these people signed up to go to war and while true, THAT war was very different from 911.  They tried as hard as they could to make it the same scenario but due to the large common feeling those wars were about lies and not about protecting anything American, we did have some who hurried to sign up and fight but not so many (as you have astutely made clear). 


Just imagine FDR telling people to ramp up their consumer spending after Pearl Harbor. That takes some imagination, as that is not what happened. Luxury spending all but vanished from the American economy. I  was all ready to buy war bonds and work in a defense plant had I been encouraged to do so.



Quote: If you don't think 911 is a "date that will live in infamy" I think that is a misnomer on your part.  Everyone knows where they were on that date, there were massive changes to our society that still linger today, the mere mention of that date is in everyone's mind who were alive then and even those who were not born yet.  Just like WWII a slew of war films came from 911 when prior to that a war film was probably unheard of as anything anyone would want to see in a theater or for entertainment.
 
Many dates can 'live in infamy', as might September 25, 1986 among fans of the Boston Red Sox, when a ground ball went between the legs of Bill Buckner for an error, turning what (had Buckner played the ball cleanly) would otherwise have given the Red Sox their first World Championship since the 1910s into a chance for the Mets to win a Game 7 -- which they did.

Of course there is one date that one associates with FDR's appeal to Congress for a declaration of war against the gangster empire of Japan.  One uses such rhetoric with care because it has had one unforgettable use.

Quote:You seem to only want to accept 911 as part of the Crisis of this saeculum when in your mind it mirrors your views on what happened due to a pearl harbor event.  Again, I make the claim most of your insights are somewhat wholly subjective.  Subjectivity is what needs to be abandoned to find realism.  Subjectivity is an echo chamber.  It serves no one.  However, as I keep saying, subjectivity is the defining trait of your generation.

You may have a problem with reading comprehension -- sorry -- I have never called the 9.11 as a Crisis event in the sense that the Confederates firing upon Fort Sumter or the Japanese naval and air forces performing an unprovoked attack upon American naval facilities. America reacted far differently after 9/11. Rhe 9.11 attack is a war crime and an act of war -- but so was the Zimmermann telegram that led to American involvement in World War I.

The generational constellation for 9/11 might be a harbinger of a Crisis; I compared a short-term financial panic and the 'anarchist purge' after WWI as non-Crisis events. 
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#8
The inside story of how AIPAC has parasitized the US body politic.  Watch the youtube video below. The US body politic is the lowly snail whose brain has been hijacked for nefarious ends.  






Enjoy! Big Grin
---Value Added Cool
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#9
(06-05-2018, 12:14 PM)tg63 Wrote: To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).

I read somewhere that the leadership generation is critical to establishing/cementing a transition or not. So, looking at the Boomer age ranges (I think I got the math correct) ...

2001: 41-58 (1943-1960)
1930: 48-70 (1860-1882)
1860: 39-68 (1792-1821)
1773: 50-72 (1701-1723)
1675: 58-87 (1588-1617)

In particular, the top of the age range when a 4T hit the previous four times ranged from 68-87. This marks the removal of the Silents from active roles in society. A max age of 58 equates to a heck of a lot of silents still actively in leadership positions across society. So no, I don't see how 2001 could have been part of the crisis.

To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).


this "beginning" could it be THE beginning as I'm saying?  Everyone wants to nail it down in comparison to other 4T but they are always different.  I re-read part of T4T the other day and it said the Crisis does not necessarily have to end in or involve war.  It isn't a prime necessity.
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#10
(06-05-2018, 06:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(06-04-2018, 07:31 PM)TheNomad Wrote: No, because America turned back quickly to an Unraveling mood. The President told people to "travel" and "go shopping", much in contrast to the response to the Pearl Harbor attack. After "the Date that will live in Infamy", America quickly put an end to luxury production and started rationing. The government pushed war bonds and military production. Young men in large numbers signed up for military service at the expense of lucrative civilian careers. 


The only high-prominence sport, film star to sacrifice his career on behalf of his country was NFL star Pat Tillman, who eventually died for his choice. What equivalent of Jimmy Stewart or Ted Williams joined the US Armed Forces after 9/11? From 2001 the government promoted a speculative boom in real estate, including such rip-offs as mortgages with negative amortization. Maybe journalists tried to compare 9/11 to Pearl Harbor, but the generational cycle suggests that such timing was off. Those journalists gave up on that talk quickly as nothing came to resemble the American response to World War II pulling America in.


Quote:I'll address this because the rest was more about the 2008 issue.

The president told people a lot of things.  It is not appropriate that a president told people to do things when that means nothing compared to what the people actually did.  You say all these people signed up to go to war and while true, THAT war was very different from 911.  They tried as hard as they could to make it the same scenario but due to the large common feeling those wars were about lies and not about protecting anything American, we did have some who hurried to sign up and fight but not so many (as you have astutely made clear). 


Just imagine FDR telling people to ramp up their consumer spending after Pearl Harbor. That takes some imagination, as that is not what happened. Luxury spending all but vanished from the American economy. I  was all ready to buy war bonds and work in a defense plant had I been encouraged to do so.



Quote: If you don't think 911 is a "date that will live in infamy" I think that is a misnomer on your part.  Everyone knows where they were on that date, there were massive changes to our society that still linger today, the mere mention of that date is in everyone's mind who were alive then and even those who were not born yet.  Just like WWII a slew of war films came from 911 when prior to that a war film was probably unheard of as anything anyone would want to see in a theater or for entertainment.
 
Many dates can 'live in infamy', as might September 25, 1986 among fans of the Boston Red Sox, when a ground ball went between the legs of Bill Buckner for an error, turning what (had Buckner played the ball cleanly) would otherwise have given the Red Sox their first World Championship since the 1910s into a chance for the Mets to win a Game 7 -- which they did.

Of course there is one date that one associates with FDR's appeal to Congress for a declaration of war against the gangster empire of Japan.  One uses such rhetoric with care because it has had one unforgettable use.

Quote:You seem to only want to accept 911 as part of the Crisis of this saeculum when in your mind it mirrors your views on what happened due to a pearl harbor event.  Again, I make the claim most of your insights are somewhat wholly subjective.  Subjectivity is what needs to be abandoned to find realism.  Subjectivity is an echo chamber.  It serves no one.  However, as I keep saying, subjectivity is the defining trait of your generation.

You may have a problem with reading comprehension -- sorry -- I have never called the 9.11 as a Crisis event in the sense that the Confederates firing upon Fort Sumter or the Japanese naval and air forces performing an unprovoked attack upon American naval facilities. America reacted far differently after 9/11. Rhe 9.11 attack is a war crime and an act of war -- but so was the Zimmermann telegram that led to American involvement in World War I.

The generational constellation for 9/11 might be a harbinger of a Crisis; I compared a short-term financial panic and the 'anarchist purge' after WWI as non-Crisis events. 

You may have a problem with reading comprehension

That can happen when we are attempting to communicate through the doors of alternate reality and alternative facts. But try to be nice, brother Smile
Reply
#11
(06-05-2018, 06:17 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: The inside story of how AIPAC has parasitized the US body politic.  Watch the youtube video below. The US body politic is the lowly snail whose brain has been hijacked for nefarious ends.  






Enjoy! Big Grin

OMG I have seen similar.......... where there are ant colonies and they recognize when praying mantis has been infected with such parasites who turn to zombies!  And the ants somehow know even before it happens to physically take away the infected creature FAR from the colony and leave it there..... because the head eventually explodes shooting spores out onto the colony and kills them. 

I'm really freaked out by bugs man! Confused  and certain stuff like this with "zombie" creatures with parasites.  Ever see the one where a woman went on tropical outback and returned with a larvae embedded in her skull??????????  They had to remove a part of her forehead to remove it and it kept retracting back not wanting to leave.  holy sh!te i cannot deal with such things.

And yes I get your metaphor completely Smile
Reply
#12
(06-05-2018, 06:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 12:14 PM)tg63 Wrote: To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).

I read somewhere that the leadership generation is critical to establishing/cementing a transition or not. So, looking at the Boomer age ranges (I think I got the math correct) ...

2001: 41-58 (1943-1960)
1930: 48-70 (1860-1882)
1860: 39-68 (1792-1821)
1773: 50-72 (1701-1723)
1675: 58-87 (1588-1617)

In particular, the top of the age range when a 4T hit the previous four times ranged from 68-87. This marks the removal of the Silents from active roles in society. A max age of 58 equates to a heck of a lot of silents still actively in leadership positions across society. So no, I don't see how 2001 could have been part of the crisis.

To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).


this "beginning" could it be THE beginning as I'm saying?  Everyone wants to nail it down in comparison to other 4T but they are always different.  I re-read part of T4T the other day and it said the Crisis does not necessarily have to end in or involve war.  It isn't a prime necessity.

The math (aka generational constellation) doesn't add up. It's not subjective.
"But there's a difference between error and dishonesty, and it's not a trivial difference." - Ben Greenman
"Relax, it'll be all right, and by that I mean it will first get worse."
"How was I supposed to know that there'd be consequences for my actions?" - Gina Linetti
Reply
#13
(06-06-2018, 06:52 AM)tg63 Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 06:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 12:14 PM)tg63 Wrote: To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).

I read somewhere that the leadership generation is critical to establishing/cementing a transition or not. So, looking at the Boomer age ranges (I think I got the math correct) ...

2001: 41-58 (1943-1960)
1930: 48-70 (1860-1882)
1860: 39-68 (1792-1821)
1773: 50-72 (1701-1723)
1675: 58-87 (1588-1617)

In particular, the top of the age range when a 4T hit the previous four times ranged from 68-87. This marks the removal of the Silents from active roles in society. A max age of 58 equates to a heck of a lot of silents still actively in leadership positions across society. So no, I don't see how 2001 could have been part of the crisis.

To the original question, I don't think it was, although it seemed to start some embers glowing (in particular I'm thinking of the willingness to pass the Patriot Act & the mood change to accept more a more authoritarian role of government).


this "beginning" could it be THE beginning as I'm saying?  Everyone wants to nail it down in comparison to other 4T but they are always different.  I re-read part of T4T the other day and it said the Crisis does not necessarily have to end in or involve war.  It isn't a prime necessity.

The math (aka generational constellation) doesn't add up. It's not subjective.
The idea of subjectivity was another topic. I get your perceived model may not add up.  Isn't every saeculum different yet within a similar patterns?  That's the whole point right?

We can predict many things but We cannot see the future.  We make informed observations based on objectivity while using the models shown to us by these authors.

When is Neil Howe next book happening?  I have tried to keep up with him but he has not been doing very much on this subject.
Reply
#14
It's not that it's my model, it's the model proposed in the books and built upon here (amongst other places). The core underlying principle (my interpretation) is that as generations move into their new role in life (e.g. boomers into "elderhood"), a new turning is triggered. So for that to have happened, boomers would have to have taken over as the dominant gen in that stage.

I simply don't see how a crisis mood could have taken hold across the country when a significant portion of the leadership of the country was still held by the previous gen (silents).
"But there's a difference between error and dishonesty, and it's not a trivial difference." - Ben Greenman
"Relax, it'll be all right, and by that I mean it will first get worse."
"How was I supposed to know that there'd be consequences for my actions?" - Gina Linetti
Reply
#15
(06-05-2018, 06:17 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: The inside story of how AIPAC has parasitized the US body politic.  Watch the youtube video below. The US body politic is the lowly snail whose brain has been hijacked for nefarious ends.  









Enjoy! Big Grin

AIPAC = American Israel public affairs committee??
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#16
(06-06-2018, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 06:17 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: The inside story of how AIPAC has parasitized the US body politic.  Watch the youtube video below. The US body politic is the lowly snail whose brain has been hijacked for nefarious ends.  









Enjoy! Big Grin

AIPAC = American Israel public affairs committee??

yahoshua!  dont tell me thor is deep state propagandist
Reply
#17
(06-05-2018, 03:05 AM)TheNomad Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Maybe it's our different ages, but I thought the phony war against Afghanistan (phony I think largely because the USA did not really fight a war there, at least until 10 years later) and the phony war against Iraq (phony because it was totally unnecessary and based entirely on lies), were NOTHING MORE than just a return to the same old military industrial complex activity that we had been stuck in since Pearl Harbor. It was simply more fall out from Pearl Harbor, rather than from 9-11 itself. It was just an excuse for more limited and phony wars that USA had been dragged into since WWII ended, with America having become the world's policeman.

It is somewhat subjective on our part, at least in your case, but only because 9-11 is an event that happened when you were about 22, and the years between then and the end of the Cold War when you were 10 or so seemed shorter to us than to you. But it had been only 10 years since the previous mis-adventure against Iraq, and that's really nothing. We boomers were mostly against all this; we were the ones who continued to march and protest against these phony wars ever since Vietnam. If we were a subjective generation, that didn't stop us from being the ones who could see through all the lies.

I certainly don't see any "massive changes in society" as a result of 9-11. Whatever changes there were, have been or will be rolled back. Not many are really affected by NSA spying or airport screening, as disturbing as these might be. And just because Trump has succeeded in stirring up prejudice against Muslims, does not mean it was a necessary change that will linger much beyond his mis-administration. Even Bush originally spoke up against it. Now there is an alternative current AGAINST prejudice that is stirring in this country now to push back against Trumpism. Even if there were big "changes" in society after 9-11 (which I deny), they were entirely reactionary and regressive; so if this is what you call a massive change, it's a departure from any previous 4T, because "change" in previous 4Ts has always been progressive.

And the Bush preventive war foreign policy that began in Iraq in 2003 has been repudiated by everyone. Protests and polemics were loud and unceasing in every intelligent sector of society after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There was anything but a national unity of consensus behind these phony wars. On the contrary, the culture wars, the name of our 3T, continued and heated up anyway, and decided the 2004 election. Low level, ongoing war has been the constant trait of this saeculum, and so it continues. These are among the reasons I have always been strongly against the idea that 9-11 started or was part of a crisis mood or fourth turning.

None of that takes away from the traumatic and catastrophic tragedy of 9-11 itself. I agree with you about that, Sir Nomad. It was a major event in USA history, and I knew it was coming too. But, the response to it was not of a 4T nature. And the response merely made the tragedy much worse.

I agree with much of this.  As many times in internet exchange, some say the same things as others but in different ways.

I said previously a few times America got hijacked with Military Industry after the cold war began.  Even an outgoing president warned of it in specific terms that we not get swept away in such a new way of life.  Hyper-consumerism came at right around the same time.  It is these two things (the concept of making wealth on the dead in war AND on a more and more isolated consumer from the "vendor").  I have said these are the fruits of the prophet generation............ even though you and others claim you all were against it even up until (shockingly) the 911 wars.  I simply do not see it.

Prophets protested vietnam because they did not want to die.  But as they grew up, they were the ones escalating hyper-capitalism, alienating businesses from consumers, fomenting war through becoming the heads of the Corporations benefiting from those wars, etc.  This really is not about me trying to blame anyone.  It is about WTF happened to America in those pivotal years after WWII and before JFK's killing?  I keep saying there's a dark presence in America since that time and I have explained (in a simple way) what I believe that darkness IS.  How it can be stopped is unknown except that a wave of individuals with a moral compass is needed. 

Now, how this extends to 911.  The dark shit going on behind the scenes still very much exists.  And for some reason, the first people to not want to believe that is the prophet.  Again, the prophet is a malfunction.  I never said dick cheney blew up the World Trade Center.  But to believe and accept there was not 911 collusion with the purpose of manifesting a mass suppression of the American State to achieve legislative and nationalistic ideals is naive.  To say the dominant prophet of 2001 were not the people putting flags on the side of their homes and cars, calling into radio shows using overt racist terms against muslims, and who were (probably) those who DID listen to Bush II who advised them to "keep spending" ran to the mall and bought anything with a Made In America Logo is also naive. 

You say the prophet was protesting?  The government - full mostly with prophets - went to sleep.  I do not remember swaths of marchers on the national mall saying the war was a lie.  I remember none of that.  None of that was on TV, none of it was in the neighborhood, people were very afraid to even voice that opinion due to the massive backlash of - again, the prophet - who loves to take sides.  They love to take sides SO badly, they were offered unity with each other to take a side against any nation they perceived as "muslim" (where, there is no such thing as a MUSLIM NATION just like there is no such thing as a CHRISTIAN AMERICA).  So, those conflicts were accomplished on the back of not only lies from behind the scenes but through the natural and fundamental article of the prophet archetype which is "fight for your ideals at all cost and till your last breath".

It would take me a while to even sit here and list out all the ways America changed after 911.  But, in conjunction with the 2008 robbery, I  think a better picture may enlighten that.  You say "oh it was just a war like the others before it".  But other than pearl harbor (which is actually not a U.S. state... it's so far away) we have never been attacked on our own soil.  And certainly not Avengers Style with debris falling from the sky in a place like New York City.  You say changes after 911 were reactionary and regressive, I say they were planned and executed perfectly - where, shockingly, the ideology and even prolly most of the strategy - was already on the books and was being discussed even before the event happened.  That's the opposite of reactionary. 

You say the 911 wars were repudiated?  I'm laughing.  Not the lol, but actually laughing.  It was ILLEGAL to protest those wars.   Obama "repudiated" the action against Iraq as a Senator and that tape haunted everything for him UNTIL the general populace caught up with the "repudiation" idea.  No one but stray characters were repudiating anything.  They were too busy spray painting everything red white and blue and screaming about how Sharia Law was coming and we need to ban the hijab.  Are you even serious, friend?  Were you in the United States at that time?  I live in THE most liberal places in America and I gave my testimony how my "patriotism" was used as a ploy at my job when they lined us all up in the parking lot to be filmed singing the national anthem for the news that night.  We weren't told any of that was happening.  And that's a perfect example of America in general at that time.  Suddenly, literally the same day or the day after, everyone flew a flag, everyone was bonding with their neighbors over a shared enemy, everyone was a potential bomber at the airport, Americans vanished to secret prisons to be interrogated.............. no one was prepared.  It was a ROLL OUT waiting to be enacted.

The Star Wars prequels offered us Order 66 when one moment the troopers were our protectors, then a moment later they are killing Jedi.

You KNEW 911 was coming?  Please expound!  And don't make us wait!

I never said 911 was itself a Crisis.  I said the wars and legislation that came from it combined with the 2008 theft may have been the Crisis.  At least to my mind, there was a strange 10 years thereabouts between the event of 911 and the economic crisis.  If what I am saying is right, this is not 3 or 8 things, it's a whole bunch of things which taken together could really be the Crisis we are all looking for.

When I'm thinking about how you sort of flippantly describe the 911 wars as "just another MIC scenario" I would more think of Iraq I as that.  It was a war.  It was about oil.  But it was nothing really impacting America... in fact, that president lost the 2nd term hard.  Bush II won in a mandate which he continually referred to as "political capital" he intended to spend which meant more war.  So, to say everyone was protesting and repudiating, he filled a 2nd term over such a thing.  The surrounding cabinet were filled with even more horrible people than the first cabinet and the congress was peeing themselves for fear of a modern McCarthy hearing over non-patriotism.  Non one was ALLOWED to repudiate post 911 actions.  It meant political doom.  The words I can use to describe how the general populace was acting as simply scared shitless.

I do understand it is too much for people to often accept right away that something horrible has happened and that it may have had connections to unseen powers.  But what if the House Committee on Assassinations had been able to access al the JFK records in the 1970s?  What if they had been able to ask the right questions and act prosecutorially on guilty parties?  I keep talking about getting ahead of these ageless scams... but we never do.  Because AGAIN it's mainly the problem prophet who fights everyone over inanities but will never accept that Daddybear in the white house or the cronies in the Lobby Pit could ever plot against them. 

Well god bless those wonderful chosen children born in a high who foreigners eloquently observed maintained full control over their parents.  It's SO all about them, we have to believe 3 separate "angry lone nuts" killed a president, a civil rights leader and a future president (brother of the first one) within the span of 5 years!  Because to them, no one EXCEPT an "angry lone nut" could possibly do something like that.  Their mind cannot handle it.  They grew up in a time when dad never talked about work because it might frighten them to know LIFE ACTUALLY INVOLVES RISK and mom was there 24/7 to ensure their bad dream was quelled with warm milk and a cookie.

Again, we find ourselves living in the PROPHET'S DREAM.  Gulf of Tonkin?  Real.  But, fake.  Oswald's magic bullet?  TOTALLY real.  But, also fake.  A guy with the same last name as a first name doesn't remember shooting RFK... but guilty.  Manchurian Candidate was in theaters 6 years earlier.  Some strange southern hick shoots down MLK because OF COURSE racism.  GUILTY.  It happens once, maybe.  It happens twice, huh?  It happens 3 times?  PROPHET SAYS THEY BELIEVE.  So the rest of us are chained to their dream.

To spin around, what happened to America over the last 80 years or so has left us in a desperate place.  If we only had the will to identify and battle the secret plots that are almost ALWAYS about exploiting the average joe, if we don't have to wait 50 years for information to get released until everyone involved is dead, we could make progress.  911 it is too soon to even say there was some under-handed connections.  People here in this forum are still defying physics with "pancake" theories.  It's too soon.  But what happened in the last decade or so will have enormous impact on America in the century to come.  If we admit something really bad happened and festered after WWII that disenfranchised many and laid out a really bad blueprint for our future, then WHEN can we start getting ahead of these things as they happen?

Is it even possible?  I can see rump starting a war and it happening and people saying "no" but it happens anyway.  I can see that.  I can also see the opposite.  Because at least for me, these kind of things I talk about like hyper-capitalism and wealth over corpses cannot be stopped by lawful regulation but with a combo of that and actual non-psychotic individuals who roll over the average American without any morality whatsoever.  No one can regulate morality.  It must be pre-present.  I am hoping the new Heroes are this, I see signs it may be.  I'm tired of blaming prophets, it does no good.  I just wish they would learn.  Learn ANYTHING.  However, I know boomers well enough that with each passing moment their ideals become more solidified and utterly resistant to change on any level.

Well, that's a lot to respond to, Bro. Let me try a little bit. And I appreciate your contribution to the forum.

Boomer prophets ARE "supposed" to be the proponents of morality, but too many got it wrong by assuming it came from the old time religion and not the New Consciousness. I pray indeed that there are some of us left who got the word and saw the light in the sixties. There were millions and millions of us, who sang along with John Lennon imagine a world living in peace and people sharing. The blue boomers, as I call them, lost three razor-close elections because the candidate's skills were not up to snuff and because of cheating by the opposition. The blue boomers had no chance to govern, therefore. I hope there may be one more, because the best candidates around are still late-cohort boomers.

I understand the conspiracy theories about JFK, MLK and RFK; I believed them as you do. It's not a matter of anything more than looking into the facts. And I did hear about that book you mentioned; I read reports and saw documentaries about it. It's not about that I am anything but skeptical about what the powers that be in our society want. I am realistic though, and recognize that some of our blue and green politicians are on the up and up. Blanket characterizations of anything are rarely correct. The facts in each case is what I look at. Yes, in fact, 3 angry lone nuts shot down those heroes. But yes, the powers that be DO plot to keep the people in subjection. They did it legally, or through cheating in the elections; but they foisted trickle-down neo-liberal economics upon us in 1980 and have kept it in power all that time, to our detriment in every way. There were indeed conspiracies to kill JFK, at least. And MLK too (he knew he was a marked man). They simply failed or were not carried out. Oswald did it, acting alone.

Similarly, there WAS a plot to keep Americans intervening abroad in 2001; it was called the Project for a New American Century, or P-NAC. It was organized and signed by Netanyahu in cohoots with neo-conservatives in the USA, and they took over when Bush II took power. They hoped for a new Pearl Harbor to justify their ambitions, which were to "spread democracy" (i.e. capitalist imperialism to keep the oil business going) around the Middle East and the world, and they got one, no doubt. It was quickly used in Iraq to justify and apply their ambitions. Arguably, action against Al Qaeda was justified, but the USA didn't really take action; it was a phony war. And 9-11 was Al Qaeda's action, as far as I can tell; not an inside job. Just theories about why the buildings could not have fallen down don't convince me that they were detonated by Bush's cabal. You have to prove who did it, and what they did. As far as I can see, Al Qaeda flew those planes and crashed them in 3 places simultaneously, and no-one has been proven to detonate any bombs. Again, it's just a matter of what the facts are. I support sticking to the facts when deciding national policy. Anything else misdirects USA policy and behavior in a tragic way. Stick to the facts, and not theories alone.


The response to 9-11 was entirely reactionary, as I define the term. As I define the term, that means whatever boosts and uplifts the status quo of power, and the ideologies that justify it and deceive people into supporting it. Flag waving and patriotism is generally reactionary, especially since the sixties. Reaction is not a "change," as I define it. It is return to the good old days and business as usual. That's what the 9-11 wars and the spying and torture and restrictions at home were all about. But this was not like rationing in WWII. Most people were not affected, and things went on as normal, just as the powers that be wanted.

Oh also, I must dissent and assert again that the boomers, the blue boomers anyway, rallied against the wars; it was a major story leading up to the Persian Gulf War. Boomers, specially identified as such, chanted "No Blood for Oil" in the months leading up to Jan 15, 1991 (another correct prediction I made). And in February 2003, the scene was described as a contest between the forces of war and the forces of peace. Hundreds of thousands including myself marched in the USA, and millions around the world in some of the biggest demos in history. Again, boomers led the way. Oh, there was boomer resistance all right, and it continued throughout the Iraq War, and in the 2004 election, which was a contest between red boomer culture warriors and blue boomer peace activists. Thanks again to cheating and to the superiority in candidate skills and horoscope scores of Bush over Kerry, the blue boomers very narrowly lost the electoral vote in Ohio. The blue boomers are here; they just haven't been able to win.

If you are talking about "WTF happened to America in those pivotal years after WWII and before JFK's killing?" that is obviously not what the boomers did, but what the Lost, GIs and Silents did, or didn't do. The boomers rejected this in youth, and many still do.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#18
I knew for decades that in the late Summer of 2001 (which Sept.11 still was) that the US would get involved in a religious war. I thought it might involve "star wars," but it was just in the air and not among the "stars." On p.266 of my 1997 book, Horoscope for the New Millennium, chapter 17, in the section entitled Star Wars or Holy Wars, I wrote, "then comes the combative Saturn-Pluto opposition in the Summer of 2001, joined by a stationary Mars in July. These planets will oppose each other across the Ascendant and Descendant of the U.S. chart. Uncle Sam will be feeling righteous again in a big way, eager to show other nations the truth. Religious issues and trade embargoes will be involved.... late February 2003 could see another flare-up... " In my tables for Jupiter in Gemini/Cancer and Mars stationary, I noted the dates and left them blank; I could later fill them in with what happened. Mars stationary usually means a violent outbreak or war within a week to a month and a half later, especially when combined with Saturn and Pluto, which when in opposition, conjunction or square have corresponded to major wars. And Jupiter in Gemini and Cancer indicates the USA war cycle, which I also detailed in my book and my videos. My 9-11 prediction is also made in this year-2000 video:



The conclusion was as clear as could be; no event could have been more clearly pre-destined; except maybe the assassination of JFK.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#19
(06-06-2018, 01:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 03:05 AM)TheNomad Wrote:
(06-05-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Maybe it's our different ages, but I thought the phony war against Afghanistan (phony I think largely because the USA did not really fight a war there, at least until 10 years later) and the phony war against Iraq (phony because it was totally unnecessary and based entirely on lies), were NOTHING MORE than just a return to the same old military industrial complex activity that we had been stuck in since Pearl Harbor. It was simply more fall out from Pearl Harbor, rather than from 9-11 itself. It was just an excuse for more limited and phony wars that USA had been dragged into since WWII ended, with America having become the world's policeman.

It is somewhat subjective on our part, at least in your case, but only because 9-11 is an event that happened when you were about 22, and the years between then and the end of the Cold War when you were 10 or so seemed shorter to us than to you. But it had been only 10 years since the previous mis-adventure against Iraq, and that's really nothing. We boomers were mostly against all this; we were the ones who continued to march and protest against these phony wars ever since Vietnam. If we were a subjective generation, that didn't stop us from being the ones who could see through all the lies.

I certainly don't see any "massive changes in society" as a result of 9-11. Whatever changes there were, have been or will be rolled back. Not many are really affected by NSA spying or airport screening, as disturbing as these might be. And just because Trump has succeeded in stirring up prejudice against Muslims, does not mean it was a necessary change that will linger much beyond his mis-administration. Even Bush originally spoke up against it. Now there is an alternative current AGAINST prejudice that is stirring in this country now to push back against Trumpism. Even if there were big "changes" in society after 9-11 (which I deny), they were entirely reactionary and regressive; so if this is what you call a massive change, it's a departure from any previous 4T, because "change" in previous 4Ts has always been progressive.

And the Bush preventive war foreign policy that began in Iraq in 2003 has been repudiated by everyone. Protests and polemics were loud and unceasing in every intelligent sector of society after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There was anything but a national unity of consensus behind these phony wars. On the contrary, the culture wars, the name of our 3T, continued and heated up anyway, and decided the 2004 election. Low level, ongoing war has been the constant trait of this saeculum, and so it continues. These are among the reasons I have always been strongly against the idea that 9-11 started or was part of a crisis mood or fourth turning.

None of that takes away from the traumatic and catastrophic tragedy of 9-11 itself. I agree with you about that, Sir Nomad. It was a major event in USA history, and I knew it was coming too. But, the response to it was not of a 4T nature. And the response merely made the tragedy much worse.

I agree with much of this.  As many times in internet exchange, some say the same things as others but in different ways.

I said previously a few times America got hijacked with Military Industry after the cold war began.  Even an outgoing president warned of it in specific terms that we not get swept away in such a new way of life.  Hyper-consumerism came at right around the same time.  It is these two things (the concept of making wealth on the dead in war AND on a more and more isolated consumer from the "vendor").  I have said these are the fruits of the prophet generation............ even though you and others claim you all were against it even up until (shockingly) the 911 wars.  I simply do not see it.

Prophets protested vietnam because they did not want to die.  But as they grew up, they were the ones escalating hyper-capitalism, alienating businesses from consumers, fomenting war through becoming the heads of the Corporations benefiting from those wars, etc.  This really is not about me trying to blame anyone.  It is about WTF happened to America in those pivotal years after WWII and before JFK's killing?  I keep saying there's a dark presence in America since that time and I have explained (in a simple way) what I believe that darkness IS.  How it can be stopped is unknown except that a wave of individuals with a moral compass is needed. 

Now, how this extends to 911.  The dark shit going on behind the scenes still very much exists.  And for some reason, the first people to not want to believe that is the prophet.  Again, the prophet is a malfunction.  I never said dick cheney blew up the World Trade Center.  But to believe and accept there was not 911 collusion with the purpose of manifesting a mass suppression of the American State to achieve legislative and nationalistic ideals is naive.  To say the dominant prophet of 2001 were not the people putting flags on the side of their homes and cars, calling into radio shows using overt racist terms against muslims, and who were (probably) those who DID listen to Bush II who advised them to "keep spending" ran to the mall and bought anything with a Made In America Logo is also naive. 

You say the prophet was protesting?  The government - full mostly with prophets - went to sleep.  I do not remember swaths of marchers on the national mall saying the war was a lie.  I remember none of that.  None of that was on TV, none of it was in the neighborhood, people were very afraid to even voice that opinion due to the massive backlash of - again, the prophet - who loves to take sides.  They love to take sides SO badly, they were offered unity with each other to take a side against any nation they perceived as "muslim" (where, there is no such thing as a MUSLIM NATION just like there is no such thing as a CHRISTIAN AMERICA).  So, those conflicts were accomplished on the back of not only lies from behind the scenes but through the natural and fundamental article of the prophet archetype which is "fight for your ideals at all cost and till your last breath".

It would take me a while to even sit here and list out all the ways America changed after 911.  But, in conjunction with the 2008 robbery, I  think a better picture may enlighten that.  You say "oh it was just a war like the others before it".  But other than pearl harbor (which is actually not a U.S. state... it's so far away) we have never been attacked on our own soil.  And certainly not Avengers Style with debris falling from the sky in a place like New York City.  You say changes after 911 were reactionary and regressive, I say they were planned and executed perfectly - where, shockingly, the ideology and even prolly most of the strategy - was already on the books and was being discussed even before the event happened.  That's the opposite of reactionary. 

You say the 911 wars were repudiated?  I'm laughing.  Not the lol, but actually laughing.  It was ILLEGAL to protest those wars.   Obama "repudiated" the action against Iraq as a Senator and that tape haunted everything for him UNTIL the general populace caught up with the "repudiation" idea.  No one but stray characters were repudiating anything.  They were too busy spray painting everything red white and blue and screaming about how Sharia Law was coming and we need to ban the hijab.  Are you even serious, friend?  Were you in the United States at that time?  I live in THE most liberal places in America and I gave my testimony how my "patriotism" was used as a ploy at my job when they lined us all up in the parking lot to be filmed singing the national anthem for the news that night.  We weren't told any of that was happening.  And that's a perfect example of America in general at that time.  Suddenly, literally the same day or the day after, everyone flew a flag, everyone was bonding with their neighbors over a shared enemy, everyone was a potential bomber at the airport, Americans vanished to secret prisons to be interrogated.............. no one was prepared.  It was a ROLL OUT waiting to be enacted.

The Star Wars prequels offered us Order 66 when one moment the troopers were our protectors, then a moment later they are killing Jedi.

You KNEW 911 was coming?  Please expound!  And don't make us wait!

I never said 911 was itself a Crisis.  I said the wars and legislation that came from it combined with the 2008 theft may have been the Crisis.  At least to my mind, there was a strange 10 years thereabouts between the event of 911 and the economic crisis.  If what I am saying is right, this is not 3 or 8 things, it's a whole bunch of things which taken together could really be the Crisis we are all looking for.

When I'm thinking about how you sort of flippantly describe the 911 wars as "just another MIC scenario" I would more think of Iraq I as that.  It was a war.  It was about oil.  But it was nothing really impacting America... in fact, that president lost the 2nd term hard.  Bush II won in a mandate which he continually referred to as "political capital" he intended to spend which meant more war.  So, to say everyone was protesting and repudiating, he filled a 2nd term over such a thing.  The surrounding cabinet were filled with even more horrible people than the first cabinet and the congress was peeing themselves for fear of a modern McCarthy hearing over non-patriotism.  Non one was ALLOWED to repudiate post 911 actions.  It meant political doom.  The words I can use to describe how the general populace was acting as simply scared shitless.

I do understand it is too much for people to often accept right away that something horrible has happened and that it may have had connections to unseen powers.  But what if the House Committee on Assassinations had been able to access al the JFK records in the 1970s?  What if they had been able to ask the right questions and act prosecutorially on guilty parties?  I keep talking about getting ahead of these ageless scams... but we never do.  Because AGAIN it's mainly the problem prophet who fights everyone over inanities but will never accept that Daddybear in the white house or the cronies in the Lobby Pit could ever plot against them. 

Well god bless those wonderful chosen children born in a high who foreigners eloquently observed maintained full control over their parents.  It's SO all about them, we have to believe 3 separate "angry lone nuts" killed a president, a civil rights leader and a future president (brother of the first one) within the span of 5 years!  Because to them, no one EXCEPT an "angry lone nut" could possibly do something like that.  Their mind cannot handle it.  They grew up in a time when dad never talked about work because it might frighten them to know LIFE ACTUALLY INVOLVES RISK and mom was there 24/7 to ensure their bad dream was quelled with warm milk and a cookie.

Again, we find ourselves living in the PROPHET'S DREAM.  Gulf of Tonkin?  Real.  But, fake.  Oswald's magic bullet?  TOTALLY real.  But, also fake.  A guy with the same last name as a first name doesn't remember shooting RFK... but guilty.  Manchurian Candidate was in theaters 6 years earlier.  Some strange southern hick shoots down MLK because OF COURSE racism.  GUILTY.  It happens once, maybe.  It happens twice, huh?  It happens 3 times?  PROPHET SAYS THEY BELIEVE.  So the rest of us are chained to their dream.

To spin around, what happened to America over the last 80 years or so has left us in a desperate place.  If we only had the will to identify and battle the secret plots that are almost ALWAYS about exploiting the average joe, if we don't have to wait 50 years for information to get released until everyone involved is dead, we could make progress.  911 it is too soon to even say there was some under-handed connections.  People here in this forum are still defying physics with "pancake" theories.  It's too soon.  But what happened in the last decade or so will have enormous impact on America in the century to come.  If we admit something really bad happened and festered after WWII that disenfranchised many and laid out a really bad blueprint for our future, then WHEN can we start getting ahead of these things as they happen?

Is it even possible?  I can see rump starting a war and it happening and people saying "no" but it happens anyway.  I can see that.  I can also see the opposite.  Because at least for me, these kind of things I talk about like hyper-capitalism and wealth over corpses cannot be stopped by lawful regulation but with a combo of that and actual non-psychotic individuals who roll over the average American without any morality whatsoever.  No one can regulate morality.  It must be pre-present.  I am hoping the new Heroes are this, I see signs it may be.  I'm tired of blaming prophets, it does no good.  I just wish they would learn.  Learn ANYTHING.  However, I know boomers well enough that with each passing moment their ideals become more solidified and utterly resistant to change on any level.

Well, that's a lot to respond to, Bro. Let me try a little bit. And I appreciate your contribution to the forum.

Boomer prophets ARE "supposed" to be the proponents of morality, but too many got it wrong by assuming it came from the old time religion and not the New Consciousness. I pray indeed that there are some of us left who got the word and saw the light in the sixties. There were millions and millions of us, who sang along with John Lennon imagine a world living in peace and people sharing. The blue boomers, as I call them, lost three razor-close elections because the candidate's skills were not up to snuff and because of cheating by the opposition. The blue boomers had no chance to govern, therefore. I hope there may be one more, because the best candidates around are still late-cohort boomers.

I understand the conspiracy theories about JFK, MLK and RFK; I believed them as you do. It's not a matter of anything more than looking into the facts. And I did hear about that book you mentioned; I read reports and saw documentaries about it. It's not about that I am anything but skeptical about what the powers that be in our society want. I am realistic though, and recognize that some of our blue and green politicians are on the up and up. Blanket characterizations of anything are rarely correct. The facts in each case is what I look at. Yes, in fact, 3 angry lone nuts shot down those heroes. But yes, the powers that be DO plot to keep the people in subjection. They did it legally, or through cheating in the elections; but they foisted trickle-down neo-liberal economics upon us in 1980 and have kept it in power all that time, to our detriment in every way. There were indeed conspiracies to kill JFK, at least. And MLK too (he knew he was a marked man). They simply failed or were not carried out. Oswald did it, acting alone.

Similarly, there WAS a plot to keep Americans intervening abroad in 2001; it was called the Project for a New American Century, or P-NAC. It was organized and signed by Netanyahu in cohoots with neo-conservatives in the USA, and they took over when Bush II took power. They hoped for a new Pearl Harbor to justify their ambitions, which were to "spread democracy" (i.e. capitalist imperialism to keep the oil business going) around the Middle East and the world, and they got one, no doubt. It was quickly used in Iraq to justify and apply their ambitions. Arguably, action against Al Qaeda was justified, but the USA didn't really take action; it was a phony war. And 9-11 was Al Qaeda's action, as far as I can tell; not an inside job. Just theories about why the buildings could not have fallen down don't convince me that they were detonated by Bush's cabal. You have to prove who did it, and what they did. As far as I can see, Al Qaeda flew those planes and crashed them in 3 places simultaneously, and no-one has been proven to detonate any bombs. Again, it's just a matter of what the facts are. I support sticking to the facts when deciding national policy. Anything else misdirects USA policy and behavior in a tragic way. Stick to the facts, and not theories alone.


The response to 9-11 was entirely reactionary, as I define the term. As I define the term, that means whatever boosts and uplifts the status quo of power, and the ideologies that justify it and deceive people into supporting it. Flag waving and patriotism is generally reactionary, especially since the sixties. Reaction is not a "change," as I define it. It is return to the good old days and business as usual. That's what the 9-11 wars and the spying and torture and restrictions at home were all about. But this was not like rationing in WWII. Most people were not affected, and things went on as normal, just as the powers that be wanted.

Oh also, I must dissent and assert again that the boomers, the blue boomers anyway, rallied against the wars; it was a major story leading up to the Persian Gulf War. Boomers, specially identified as such, chanted "No Blood for Oil" in the months leading up to Jan 15, 1991 (another correct prediction I made). And in February 2003, the scene was described as a contest between the forces of war and the forces of peace. Hundreds of thousands including myself marched in the USA, and millions around the world in some of the biggest demos in history. Again, boomers led the way. Oh, there was boomer resistance all right, and it continued throughout the Iraq War, and in the 2004 election, which was a contest between red boomer culture warriors and blue boomer peace activists. Thanks again to cheating and to the superiority in candidate skills and horoscope scores of Bush over Kerry, the blue boomers very narrowly lost the electoral vote in Ohio. The blue boomers are here; they just haven't been able to win.

If you are talking about "WTF happened to America in those pivotal years after WWII and before JFK's killing?" that is obviously not what the boomers did, but what the Lost, GIs and Silents did, or didn't do. The boomers rejected this in youth, and many still do.

I understand the conspiracy theories about JFK, MLK and RFK; I believed them as you do. It's not a matter of anything more than looking into the facts. And I did hear about that book you mentioned; I read reports and saw documentaries about it.

What facts?  What are your sources?  You HEARD of the book I mentioned, did you read it?  To me it is the most shockingly fact-based book on the subject matter I have ever read.  Not because it has physics involving the Magic Bullet or recreations in Dealy Plaza or talking to ancient witnesses at the event.  It is a very personal story that branches out into things I never knew about, and if a person wishes to benefit from such a text, they would have to have several primers about the larger "arms" involved in the constellation of the story so as to be able to piece them together.  That book is a coagulation of so many things and people, where I - as a researcher - was aware of maybe many things the book puts together, but I had no idea HOW they fit together until I read the book. 

I dont know what I was saying about what happened to America from a time period... only that we got hijacked with hyper-capitalism and war-for-profit soon after WWII and it only went full force after JFK and into the 70s and 80s into current.  We were a people of honesty and valor who got rendered into pork rinds who buy from slave labor abroad and are abused by Corporatocracy from within.  HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?  I believe it happened by amoral psychopaths at the highest levels who lie to us as if it were the truth.  All we need do is take their official statements and reverse everything they say and hence we have the truth or a better representation of a larger picture.

Thus, Angry Lone Nuts become Trained Connected Operatives in that scenario.  Reverse what they say and a more reasonable truth becomes obvious.  How does an angry lone nut get trained in Russian and then move to and return to America from russia during the cold war?  That's ONE (1) thing that was never asked by the Warrens nor was ever addressed about Lee Oswald AT ALL.  Just because it was not asked, that doesn't mean it does not exist.
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#20
(06-06-2018, 01:36 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I knew for decades that in the late Summer of 2001 (which Sept.11 still was) that the US would get involved in a religious war. I thought it might involve "star wars," but it was just in the air and not among the "stars." On p.266 of my 1997 book, Horoscope for the New Millennium, chapter 17, in the section entitled Star Wars or Holy Wars, I wrote, "then comes the combative Saturn-Pluto opposition in the Summer of 2001, joined by a stationary Mars in July. These planets will oppose each other across the Ascendant and Descendant of the U.S. chart. Uncle Sam will be feeling righteous again in a big way, eager to show other nations the truth. Religious issues and trade embargoes will be involved.... late February 2003 could see another flare-up... " In my tables for Jupiter in Gemini/Cancer and Mars stationary, I noted the dates and left them blank; I could later fill them in with what happened. Mars stationary usually means a violent outbreak or war within a week to a month and a half later, especially when combined with Saturn and Pluto, which when in opposition, conjunction or square have corresponded to major wars. And Jupiter in Gemini and Cancer indicates the USA war cycle, which I also detailed in my book and my videos. My 9-11 prediction is also made in this year-2000 video:  



The conclusion was as clear as could be; no event could have been more clearly pre-destined; except maybe the assassination of JFK.

I watched your video, I found it interesting.  I admittedly have really no functional knowledge of star charts or what planet motions have to do with how or why things happen.  But that's why I am here and other places, to see where others are coming from.

You briefly chronicled the decades of the war actions and the rise of consumerism, you really do gloss over tho why those things happen except in a star chart capacity.  You talked about the differing mentalities changing and how the 60s were a radical change but you don't mention the trauma of the assassinations of that decade.  You mention that suddenly everyone mistrusted the government and "official" stories told by them to us to explain the trauma... but you don't really go into functional reasoning as to why would the general populace behave in this manner. 

Your diatribe (I'm not using that word in a negative way here) sounds a lot like the strauss and howe theories but I don't think they ever used planet alignments to explain things.  I could take the idea you are tin foil hat to say planet cycles create policy or whatever, but I don't do that.  Just because I don't understand it does not mean you may not be on to something.

How can I say that method is wrong or crazy if the end result is repeatable and demonstrative?  To the contrary, I could simply ignore your material as outright "bunk" (I love that word, my dad used that word as anything he did not understand so to me it is funny) and malarkey could be another word LOL.  But thanks for sharing that

I really do want to know more, so keep squawking big chicken. Angel 

So based on planet alignment or whatever you would call it, what is in store for us and what do you see in your methodology?  Yes, it really is hard to keep up with all the posts here, so sorry if I missed anything.  I am attempting to supplant reddit as a forum of interaction because that place is the wild west.  I really think people go there with the expressed intention to locate others to argue with (not argue in a productive way) and is filled with spammers and even bots with no purpose except to cause conflict.  I'm not down with that.
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