Separation of illegal-alien children from parents

[pbrower2a]

Children Separated From Parents At The Border Heard In Heartbreaking New Audio
An eight-minute audio clip released by ProPublica features a U.S. Border Patrol agent making jokes about an “orchestra” of wailing children.

By Doha Madani

ProPublica, a nonprofit news organization, published audio on Monday of children crying out for their parents at a U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility.

The nearly eight-minute recording is of 10 Central American children who were separated from their parents last week by immigration authorities at the border, according to ProPublica.

A U.S. Border Patrol agent can be heard in the audio clip making a joke about the wailing children.

“Well, we have an orchestra here,” the agent says. “What’s missing is a conductor.”

The person who made the recording asked not to be identified out of fear of retaliation, ProPublica reports. HuffPost has not independently confirmed the authenticity of the recording.

At one point in the clip, a 6-year-old Salvadoran girl begs a consulate worker to call her aunt, whose number she’d memorized in case she was separated from her family.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pro...b9e9a3d035

“My mommy says that I’ll go with my aunt and that she’ll come to pick me up there as quickly as possible,” the unidentified girl says.

President Donald Trump’s administration announced the family separation policy in May as a part of a “zero tolerance” crackdown on illegal immigration to the United States. The practice of taking children from parents who illegally enter the country has ignited bipartisan backlash.

Trump has blamed Democrats amid mounting criticism, saying the crackdown was a result of inaction on border security in Congress. However, the family separations are entirely the result of Trump administration policy.
Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen also falsely purported the claim that the Trump administration’s tactic of taking children from their families at the border was an enforcement of the law.

There is no law requiring immigrant families to be separated, even if they are crossing the border illegally. Previous administrations allowed families to face deportation proceedings together in civil court.
 
Nielsen said at a Monday press briefing that she did not hear the recording of the children and referred reporters to the department’s “standards” in treating the kids.

New York Magazine reporter Olivia Nuzzi played the audio in the background while Nielsen defended the family separation policy. 



“I would have waited until I was called on to play it, but I was not being called on,” Nuzzi wrote on Twitter. “After another reporter’s phone began loudly ringing with a melodic jingle, I figured the briefing room could probably deal with a more important disturbance.”
Family separation ordered by the administration has resulted in nearly 2,000 children being separated from their parents in six weeks. There have been 1,995 children taken from 1,940 adults at the border from April 19 to May 31, The Associated Press reported.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions officially announced the change in policy in May, though some cases indicate the practice was in place for months before. The American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit in February on behalf of a Congolese asylum-seeker who was separated from her 7-year-old daughter. The ACLU is seeking a nationwide injunction to stop the Trump administration’s policy, claiming it is a violation of the Fifth Amendment’s right to due process.

[David Horn]

This issue may be Trump's bridge-too-far. Most adults have children, and abusing children doesn't sit well at the visceral level.

[pbrower2a]

(06-19-2018, 12:58 PM)David Horn Wrote: This issue may be Trump's bridge-too-far.  Most adults have children, and abusing children doesn't sit well at the visceral level.

It is easy (if not right) to conclude that approval of such behavior comes from the top of the chain of command. The President can create or end a culture that treats helpless people badly.


An orchestra -- but it needs a conductor? In effect, Donald Trump is conducting this orchestra (technically a chorus) of wailing voices from afar. 

Other Presidents would at least make examples of someone who went deep into such cruelty and contempt. The INS is expected to treat children with some kindness. Traffickers? Tough luck!

[pbrower2a]

Not surprisingly, there's a poll for that. The poll that I cite comes  from highly-respected Quinnipiac.


June 18, 2018 - Stop Taking The Kids, 66 Percent Of U.S. Voters Say, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Support For Dreamers Is 79 Percent

Quote:American voters oppose 66 - 27 percent the policy of separating children and parents when families illegally cross the border into America, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today.

Republican voters support the separation policy 55 - 35 percent, the only listed party, gender, education, age or racial group to support it, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe- ack) University National Poll finds.

American voters also support 79 - 15 percent allowing immigrants who were brought to the U.S. as children, so-called "Dreamers," to remain and ultimately to apply for citizenship.

All listed groups support Dreamers, ranging from 61 - 28 percent among Republicans to 94 - 5 percent among Democrats.

Support for Dreamers has ranged from 77 percent to 81 percent in every Quinnipiac University National Poll conducted this year.

American voters oppose 58 - 39 percent building a wall along the border with Mexico. The only listed groups to support the wall are Republicans 77 - 17 percent and white voters with no college degree 52 - 44 percent.

The Trump Administration has been too aggressive in deporting illegal immigrants, 50 percent of voters say, as 13 percent say the administration has not been aggressive enough and 33 percent say the administration has been acting appropriately.

"When does public opinion become a demand that politicians just can't ignore? Two- thirds of American voters oppose the family separation policy at our borders," said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Poll.

"Neither quotes from the Bible nor get-tough talk can soften the images of crying children nor reverse the pain so many Americans feel."

"And if you are a Dreamer, voters say, 'We have your back,'" Malloy added.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-det...aseID=2550

[Warren Dew]

It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children. Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

[pbrower2a]

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

That is the norm for incarceration before trial. The usual offender is a horrible role model for children. The illegal aliens have not been picked up for rape, armed robberies, drug offenses, child abuse or neglect, or anything else that you or I could never get away with. And, yes, we shouldn't.  If the parent uses a child in a crime, then that parent deserves to lose the child.

[David Horn]

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

First, many of the detainees are actually asylum seekers, and they hardly qualify under your definition of 'criminal'.  Asylum seeking is an internationally agreed right.  Of those not seeking asylum, let's agree that they have no possible backup support structure for their children, and the children are guilty of absolutely nothing.

It gets worse.

In the kiddie prisons, each child is given an intake hearing.  Almost none have a lawyer … even toddlers.  They are denied the companionship of siblings, as well as parents,  They cannot touch or be touched, so comfort is not provided.  Infants have to get diaper changes as best they can ... seriously!  Explain to me how any of this comports with American values.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

1.  The pull problem needs has an easy solution.  All employers need to use E-verify.  If anyone is busted, throw the book at them.  Prosecute them on tax charges for non payment of employment taxes along with hiring aliens. If the fines bankrupt them, all the better. Examples make for awesome deterrents.

2. The push problem.  The US needs to stop meddling in Latin America's internal affairs. Stop supporting civil wars to advance corporate America's agendas.

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

4. If someone is just looking for "a better life, " too bad. We have legions of homeless already, fix that first as well.
For example, San Francisco, that paragon of kindness won't build homeless shelters, because NIMBY. I despise hypocrisy.  Just look at the huge mess over there.  

[pbrower2a]

I am unaware of validity of this source. If it is not a credible source and the story is discreditable, then fine. Otherwise, we have a huge problem.

Quote:President Donald Trump’s zero tolerance policy is creating a zombie army of children forcibly injected with medications that make them dizzy, listless, obese and even incapacitated, according to legal filings that show immigrant children in U.S. custody subdued with powerful psychiatric drugs.

Children held at Shiloh Treatment Center, a government contractor south of Houston that houses immigrant minors, described being held down and injected, according to the federal court filings. The lawsuit alleges that children were told they would not be released or see their parents unless they took medication and that they only were receiving vitamins.

Parents and the children themselves told attorneys the drugs rendered them unable to walk, afraid of people and wanting to sleep constantly, according to affidavits filed April 23 in U.S. District Court in California.

One mother said her child fell repeatedly, hitting her head, and ended up in a wheelchair. A child described trying to open a window and being hurled against a door by a Shiloh supervisor, who then choked her until she fainted.

“The supervisor told me I was going to get a medication injection to calm me down,” the girl said. “Two staff grabbed me, and the doctor gave me the injection despite my objection and left me there on the bed.”

Another child recounted being made to take pills in the morning, at noon and night. The child said “the staff told me that some of the pills are vitamins because they think I need to gain weight. The vitamins changed about two times, and each time I feel different.”

Shiloh is among 71 companies that receive funds from the federal government to house and supervise immigrant children deemed unaccompanied minors.

An investigation by Reveal from The Center for Investigative Reporting found that nearly half of the $3.4 billion paid to those companies in the last four years went to homes with serious allegations of mistreating children. In nearly all cases reviewed by Reveal, the federal government continued contracts with the companies after serious allegations were raised.

At Reveal’s request, forensic psychiatrist Mark. J. Mills assessed materials from 420 pages of children’s medical records and statements filed in California federal court this April.

“You don’t have to be a rocket scientist here; it looks like they’re trying to control agitation and aggressive behavior with antipsychotic drugs,” said Mills, who practices in the Washington, D.C., area and was an expert witness for a lawsuit that in 2008 stopped the federal government from forcibly administering antipsychotic drugs to deportees.

“You don’t need to administer these kinds of drugs unless someone is plucking out their eyeball or some such. The facility should not use these drugs to control behavior. That’s not what antipsychotics should be used for. That’s like the old Soviet Union used to do.”

The records were filed in connection with an ongoing class-action status lawsuit alleging poor treatment of  immigrant children in U.S. custody. An attorney representing the children said youth separated from their parents often become depressed, angry, anxious and, sometimes, unruly and that, in turn, encourages prescription of inappropriate medication.

One child was prescribed 10 different shots and pills, including the antipsychotic drugs Latuda, Geodon and Olanzapine, the Parkinson’s medication Benztropine, the seizure medications Clonazepam and Divalproex, the nerve pain medication and antidepressant Duloxetine, and the cognition enhancer Guanfacine.

Dosage recommendations at Shiloh gave orderlies what Mills called an unusually wide berth to determine how much medicine to give the children.

Maribel Bernardez first suspected her son was being drugged at the Shiloh facility when she saw a video sent by his caseworker via WhatsApp.

“He was completely hypnotized and lethargic,” Bernardez told Reveal.

Bernardez, now reunited with her son in New Orleans and seeking asylum from Honduras, provided Reveal with records showing her son was held at the Shiloh facility for six months. He was 9 when he landed at Shiloh in November after being referred for what staff considered psychological issues. Reveal is not publishing his name at his mother’s request.

Medical records show that Bernardez’s son was administered psychotropic drugs at Shiloh. She told Reveal that she repeatedly objected and did not sign any consent form.

The Shiloh Treatment Center has not responded to a request from Reveal for comment about the case. The government Office of Refugee Resettlement has not responded either.

Side effects of the medications make some children feel even more desperate, leading to the prescription of increasingly powerful medications, said Carlos Holguin, an attorney for the Los Angeles-based Center for Human Rights & Constitutional Law. Holguin is asking a judge to require parents’ permission or a court order before children in the country illegally can be medicated.

Shiloh already had a reputation for mistreating children. In December 2014, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Houston, called for Shiloh to be shut down, citing reports from the Houston Chronicle of “physical violence, unreasonable and excessive use of physical restraints, administering emergency medications without notice to governmental authorities, and several deaths of minor children while in custody,” she said in a statement.

But the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services continued sending children and funds to Shiloh – a total of more than $19 million after the congresswoman called for its closure, according to federal payment records.
Shiloh has contracted to house immigrant children since 2013. Last year, the most lucrative yet under its agreement, Shiloh collected $5.6 million.

Children and parents interviewed by the attorneys described being forcibly injected or made to take as many as 18 pills a day. One record reviewed by Mills showed a child taking a battery of shots and pills that included three different types of antipsychotic drugs, which Mills said were improperly prescribed for “agitation” and “aggressive behavior.”

Of the 20 or so children Holguin and his colleagues interviewed, all had been medicated. Parents he interviewed described the results.
“I understand they are requiring (my daughter) to take very powerful medications for anxiety. I have noted that (my daughter) is becoming more nervous, fearful, and she trembles,” one said. “(My daughter) tells me that she has fallen several times and has injured her head and arms, to the point that she ended up in a wheelchair, because the medications were too powerful and she couldn’t walk. She has complained about the medications to the staff, that they make her afraid of people.”

Medical records included in the court exhibits suggest improper use of medications, according to Mills.

Asked how such drugs and dosages would make children feel, Mills said: “They feel like shit. They feel like they have given up their own control. The long-term complications are weight gain and developing adult onset diabetes. These drugs are not benign.”

[i]Matt Smith can be reached at msmith@revealnews.org and Aura Bogado can be reached at abogado@revealnews.org. Follow them on Twitter: @SFMattSmith and @aurabogado.[/i]

[i][url=https://twitter.com/aurabogado][/url][/i]

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/immigran...it-claims/

[pbrower2a]

If true, this is bad psychiatric or psychological treatment, including deceitful misrepresentation of psychoactive medications. Such medication must ordinarily be prescribed by a physician responsible for the welfare of the patient even if in an institution. Children have a reasonable right to refuse medications that are harmful except in life-and-death situations. Parents should have some control over the medication of their small children. If a physician or nurse is involved, then this bad medical practice should result in loss of the appropriate medical license. Blame the orderlies? No. A physician or nurse must supervise the medication lest there be at the least a lawsuit for malpractice.

Injections are unsafe unless indicated by solid medical practice.

Look at it this way -- persons entering the US do so several times before they slip past the system. The large number of illegal aliens who get away with their illegal status indicates that illegal aliens do what it takes to get away with it -- like learning to speak good English, doing well in school, holding onto jobs that most US citizens do not want, avoiding legal trouble, and having a normal family life.

This sort of institutional treatment can scar children for life. Should they return, we may have created some monsters so distrustful of American institutions that they will turn to MS-13 and similar gangs for some modicum of safety. But even if they are returned with such scarring events, we are not doing the countries to which we return them any favor.



A bit of wisdom nearly 2000 years old:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

King James Version, Galatians 6:7

http://biblehub.com/galatians/6-7.htm

(Of course, who says that President Trump or his coterie heed the Bible or any other moral direction?)

[David Horn]

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)LRagnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

...

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

 
While I agree that there are limits to asylum,  we need to be careful about what is and isn't legitimate. If you are a woman living in hyper macho-land, institutional indifference to your welfare is a legitimate reason to flee. If the government sides with your oppressor, simply because you lack a penis, that government becomes the problem too.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-22-2018, 08:16 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)LRagnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

...

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

 
While I agree that there are limits to asylum,  we need to be careful about what is and isn't legitimate. If you are a woman living in hyper macho-land, institutional indifference to your welfare is a legitimate reason to flee. If the government sides with your oppressor, simply because you lack a penis, that government becomes the problem too.

OK, but "macho-land" is pretty extensive in the world.  A lot of the Islamic world is that way with some exceptions like the Kurd tribe. Latin America is/was , [ask an expert] may be another location. In any event, macho-land seems to be a really big place on earth. So, to use an analogy, and to extend it to immigration in general try this:
You're cooking a pot of soup.  A teaspoon of salt is OK, while dumping the whole can makes a horrible tasting and most likely toxic soup. Immigration is like salt, a little is fine and beneficial, while dumping a whole shit pot is a very bad thing. The "To me, the no border brigade are a bunch of clueless idealists. They ignore human nature, history, and even climate change. Humans seem to be as dumb as petri dish bacteria when it comes to breeding. Climate change + breeding will result in billions of deaths. Earth is finite and infinite things crash. The same rule for deer applies to humans. I just don't want to consume a lethal dose of sodium.

[David Horn]

(06-22-2018, 12:46 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: OK, but "macho-land" is pretty extensive in the world.  A lot of the Islamic world is that way with some exceptions like the Kurd tribe. Latin America is/was , [ask an expert] may be another location. In any event, macho-land seems to be a really big place on earth. So, to use an analogy, and to extend it to immigration in general try this:
You're cooking a pot of soup.  A teaspoon of salt is OK, while dumping the whole can makes a horrible tasting and most likely toxic soup. Immigration is like salt, a little is fine and beneficial, while dumping a whole shit pot is a very bad thing. The "To me, the no border brigade are a bunch of clueless idealists. They ignore human nature, history, and even climate change. Humans seem to be as dumb as petri dish bacteria when it comes to breeding. Climate change + breeding will result in billions of deaths. Earth is finite and infinite things crash. The same rule for deer applies to humans. I just don't want to consume a lethal dose of sodium.

This is exactly the problem. We are rapidly devolving into two worlds: one that is orderly and rule based and one that's disorderly and chaotic. The latter appears to be growing, so the ordered world wants to stop it at its borders. I don't think that works, frankly.

We've fought major wars for less. Let's not this time, okay?

At its core, modernity is the cause. How do you fight that? The world is changing, but very few are benefitting. That's a big part of the problem. The powerful couldn't care less as long as they get theirs and a big chunk of yours to boot. Either that changes or the chaos continues to spread.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-23-2018, 08:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-22-2018, 12:46 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: OK, but "macho-land" is pretty extensive in the world.  A lot of the Islamic world is that way with some exceptions like the Kurd tribe. Latin America is/was , [ask an expert] may be another location. In any event, macho-land seems to be a really big place on earth. So, to use an analogy, and to extend it to immigration in general try this:
You're cooking a pot of soup.  A teaspoon of salt is OK, while dumping the whole can makes a horrible tasting and most likely toxic soup. Immigration is like salt, a little is fine and beneficial, while dumping a whole shit pot is a very bad thing. The "To me, the no border brigade are a bunch of clueless idealists. They ignore human nature, history, and even climate change. Humans seem to be as dumb as petri dish bacteria when it comes to breeding. Climate change + breeding will result in billions of deaths. Earth is finite and infinite things crash. The same rule for deer applies to humans. I just don't want to consume a lethal dose of sodium.

This is exactly the problem.  We are rapidly devolving into two worlds: one that is orderly and rule based and one that's disorderly and chaotic.  The latter appears to be growing, so the ordered world wants to stop it at its borders.  I don't think that works, frankly.

We've fought major wars for less.  Let's not this time, okay?

At its core, modernity is the cause.  How do you fight that?  The world is changing, but very few are benefitting.  That's a big part of the problem.  The powerful couldn't care less as long as they get theirs and a big chunk of yours to boot. Either that changes or the chaos continues to spread.

To me, it looks like we more or less agree. Here are some links which I duckduckgo'd. [I don't use google].

1. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joergen-o...67118.html
I didn't see a reference explicitly mentioning wage arbitrage, but that's one of globalism's internal contradictions. The article says "wealth creation", but didn't go into how wage arbitrage makes for great fuel for economic nationalism. Likewise no mention of amoral elites that lead to situations like Flint, Appalachia, New Orleans, [still messed up after Katrina], and of course Puerto Rico. To me, it seems globalism is facing its own seeds of destruction.

2. https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/d...w-dark-age
Here, I'm awestruck. Here's a mainstream organization that dwells in Ragsworld. I can't really come up with anything to add or disagree with.   While the mainstream media [I guess] since I don't even pay attention anymore since they bloviates and dwell on trivial matters.

3. So, there are hard choices. Amoral transnational elites have to be controlled. Mass migration also needs to be addressed. Here, we have morons like Sessions. He's unaware that his hangup on the war on drugs is fueling the push of migrants. Neocons have really screwed things up here as well. George W. Bushes wars of choice have created a litany of failed states which are mile markers on the highway of hell to collapse. We still have neocon projects in Latin America that are likewise mile markers. Sanctions on Cuba and Venezuela help nobody!

Wait, there's more.
https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/hondur...ling-14265
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/right...-guatemala

I suppose as far as Latin America, the US is the empire of chaos. Blowback's a bitch.

I think Russia got dealt pocket aces. The USSR collapse cleaned out a lot of cruft. They have almost no debt.
China has lots of debt but so far has cohesion. Their industrial base may remedy their debt problem though they may have some pain. Iceland may escape since nobody wants what they have and their isolated. W Europe is a big mess along with us. I'll check back in `10 years and see if we left the highway to hell. I think Africa will be the first place to enter a dark age. Then again, Africa may well be the first place to emerge if the whole world goes dark. I think Latin America has more or less the same prospects as Africa. In Ragsworld, both may rise like a Phoenix sometime in distant future.

[Eric the Green]

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

1.  The pull problem needs has an easy solution.  All employers need to use E-verify.  If anyone is busted, throw the book at them.  Prosecute them on tax charges for non payment of employment taxes along with hiring aliens. If the fines bankrupt them, all the better. Examples make for awesome deterrents.

2. The push problem.  The US needs to stop meddling in Latin America's internal affairs. Stop supporting civil wars to advance corporate America's agendas.

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

4. If someone is just looking for "a better life, " too bad. We have legions of homeless already, fix that first as well.
For example, San Francisco, that paragon of kindness won't build homeless shelters, because NIMBY. I despise hypocrisy.  Just look at the huge mess over there.  

Thanks for the discussion on this important topic.

I agree with David's observations and concerns. Illegal immigrants are not felons; their punishment should fit the crime. Prisons for babies is not in accord with values and laws. Allowing immigration does not mean we allow criminals to stay in our country, or drugs to be smuggled. If illegal immigrants commit serious crimes, they can and should be deported. There should be standards set for this; a DUI committed 20 years ago is not a sufficient reason to deport someone off the street and take them away from their families. And Trump and his followers assume that all illegal immigrants must be criminals, rapists and drug dealers. This is not true; immigrants are actually less liable to commit crimes than natives.

1. Illegal immigration exists partly because employers need workers, and such workers are not available from the native population. Certainly laws requiring employers to pay their employment taxes and pay living wages to employees must be enforced. Deporting people just because they crossed the border may not be a workable policy. At least, they can't all be deported, so such a policy is unfair. And it ignores the right of people to live where they want to live. But if employers must all pay living wages to all workers, legal or not, this may decrease the need businesses perceive to hire illegal aliens, because that is caused by their unfair desire to pay cheap and unfair wages.

2. This is a big and important point. What the US did in Central America 20-30 years ago had a big impact on the condition of countries today. The US supported in many cases wealthy landowning oligarchies who employed death squads to maintain their power, because these oligarchs were not communist rebels and were beneficial to US commercial interests. I would say we need to stop supporting these oligarchs. We can't impose what we want on them. But we can pressure them through our influence and trade policies to respect human rights and hold honest elections, not coups and death squads. Our own drug problems and drug wars also contribute to conditions in these countries.

3. That seems right. And, asylum seekers are not criminals. They have a right to seek it, and should not be detained while they seek it.

4. I dunno. Having poverty imposed on you, is as much a tyranny as being imprisoned for your beliefs or your activism or your family member's activism. It is natural for people to want to move to another place if life is intolerable where you are. If it's reasonably good, then people will stay home. Giving aid to poor countries is a responsibility of rich ones, if we are to have a functioning world without as much war, terrorism and mass migrations. The wealthy also primarily need to provide aid to people suffering at home. NIMBY is not a good policy. But our back yard is also the yards beyond our national borders. We cannot separate ourselves from the chaos abroad. People's suffering abroad is often a condition imposed by outside powers, including but not limited to those imposed by the USA. Our policies toward other nations need to be enlightened by the realization that what's good for others is what's good for us. The guy who shared that philosophy and physics video with us, made that point as its ultimate conclusion. It is a valid one.

[pbrower2a]

(06-24-2018, 08:56 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 03:56 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-20-2018, 12:18 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: It's always been quite standard for the justice system to separate detained criminal suspects from their children.  Why do we suddenly care when the suspects are illegal aliens, when we've never cared when the suspects are US citizens?

Hmmm.. This mess needs to be fixed.

1.  The pull problem needs has an easy solution.  All employers need to use E-verify.  If anyone is busted, throw the book at them.  Prosecute them on tax charges for non payment of employment taxes along with hiring aliens. If the fines bankrupt them, all the better. Examples make for awesome deterrents.

2. The push problem.  The US needs to stop meddling in Latin America's internal affairs. Stop supporting civil wars to advance corporate America's agendas.

3. Define exactly what constitutes "asylum".  I don't think spouse abuse or stuff US citizens go through should qualify.  After all, man, charity begins at home. Fix those problems here first before going on some global crusade to fix the world's problems.

4. If someone is just looking for "a better life, " too bad. We have legions of homeless already, fix that first as well.
For example, San Francisco, that paragon of kindness won't build homeless shelters, because NIMBY. I despise hypocrisy.  Just look at the huge mess over there.  

Thanks for the discussion on this important topic.

I agree with David's observations and concerns. Illegal immigrants are not felons; their punishment should fit the crime. Prisons for babies is not in accord with values and laws. Allowing immigration does not mean we allow criminals to stay in our country, or drugs to be smuggled. If illegal immigrants commit serious crimes, they can and should be deported. There should be standards set for this; a DUI committed 20 years ago is not a sufficient reason to deport someone off the street and take them away from their families. And Trump and his followers assume that all illegal immigrants must be criminals, rapists and drug dealers. This is not true; immigrants are actually less liable to commit crimes than natives.

1. Illegal immigration exists partly because employers need workers, and such workers are not available from the native population. Certainly laws requiring employers to pay their employment taxes and pay living wages to employees must be enforced. Deporting people just because they crossed the border may not be a workable policy. At least, they can't all be deported, so such a policy is unfair. And it ignores the right of people to live where they want to live. But if employers must all pay living wages to all workers, legal or not, this may decrease the need businesses perceive to hire illegal aliens, because that is caused by their unfair desire to pay cheap and unfair wages.

2. This is a big and important point. What the US did in Central America 20-30 years ago had a big impact on the condition of countries today. The US supported in many cases wealthy landowning oligarchies who employed death squads to maintain their power, because these oligarchs were not communist rebels and were beneficial to US commercial interests. I would say we need to stop supporting these oligarchs. We can't impose what we want on them. But we can pressure them through our influence and trade policies to respect human rights and hold honest elections, not coups and death squads. Our own drug problems and drug wars also contribute to conditions in these countries.

3. That seems right. And, asylum seekers are not criminals. They have a right to seek it, and should not be detained while they seek it.

4. I dunno. Having poverty imposed on you, is as much a tyranny as being imprisoned for your beliefs or your activism or your family member's activism. It is natural for people to want to move to another place if life is intolerable where you are. If it's reasonably good, then people will stay home. Giving aid to poor countries is a responsibility of rich ones, if we are to have a functioning world without as much war, terrorism and mass migrations. The wealthy also primarily need to provide aid to people suffering at home. NIMBY is not a good policy. But our back yard is also the yards beyond our national borders. We cannot separate ourselves from the chaos abroad. People's suffering abroad is often a condition imposed by outside powers, including but not limited to those imposed by the USA. Our policies toward other nations need to be enlightened by the realization that what's good for others is what's good for us. The guy who shared that philosophy and physics video with us, made that point as its ultimate conclusion. It is a valid one.

1. Employers want cheap workers. Maybe employers need to have productivity high enough to allow such, or people must accept paying more for what they get. What the Hard Right (and not only Trump) offers is cheap labor and monopolized business to make the profit margins higher. Illegal aliens do much of the nasty work in American life -- farm labor, kitchen help, and at times construction or landscaping. They keep the costs down for the rest of us, except perhaps in housing. Illegal aliens are also good customers because they are poor and are still 'progressing' through the needs of the industrial era. So they buy stuff that we take for granted. If they get sick or injured they can be cast off.

We need to enforce wage and hour laws strictly.

2. Let's not forget that American addicts are buying the drugs and supplying (indirectly through drug lords) that fund much of the civil mess in some of those very poor Latin-American countries. Whether those oligarchs that you lament are complicit in such through design or neglect may be another story. Even if we have a war on drugs, some countries are on the brink of civil war due to the drug trade and its debasement of civic life.

3. People seeking asylum from civil wars because of American drug use are in the same moral league as people that Americans allowed entry into America because they fled Nazism (there would have been more had we been more generous, especially with the Jews... FDR could have mocked Hitler with a statement much like an Ottoman sultan toward the Spanish king: 'You impoverish your Reich and enrich our Republic.' -- and really generous with people fleeing Commie rule from the time of the Russian Revolution through the Commie takeovers of Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam. If I had to choose between being a drug trafficker and being a Communist, I would be a Commie.

4. Yes indeed. Poverty in a country that values little more than economic success is a debasement of life if it is new or an old inequity where it is old. This country needs to do some personal and collective soul-searching to make our country more equitable.

When I see obvious poverty in America I feel poorer. I recognize, having been in the middle class all my life, that our economic elites and their favorite right-wing politicians use poverty as a threat to us all. Maybe poverty is less odious than concentration camps, torture chambers, and execution sites, but let's not use the horrific to defend the awful. Sure, Jim Crow practice might be less objectionable than the Holocaust -- but that is no excuse for Jim Crow practice.

[Eric the Green]

Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.

[Ragnarök_62]

(08-04-2018, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.

Illegal immigration comes from the law that states that the US has a right to allow a certain number of folks to come here. Border control is a fundamental function of any nation state. The no borders/let everyone in people are fools of the first order. These people are also the useful idiots of neoliberalism. Let's use actual logic here. The US land can only support so many people. Right now there are already too many people. The news that the birth rate has already fallen below replacement is good news, not bad news.  I know rags like Reuters think its bad news and to neoliberals it is bad news because a falling population means fewer people that can be exploited. Fewer workers means higher salaries. Here are some more awesome things we can have: More room for wildlife, more fresh water, less green house gases, lower housing prices, more food per capita, less traffic, and less pollution. Always remember and never forget, population overshoot is the ultimate ponzi scheme. In any event, a voluntary reduction in population is far better than what mother nature will do if we do not stop this breeding shit. Climate change is already locked and loaded to crash the food supply since the US bread basket is going to bake, along with Australia's and Brazil's. So folks are going to starve in nations that insist on breeding or importing more people. So yeah, we need the wall in places, drones, ICE, mandatory Everify + high fines for cheating companies, and Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is where Trump is messing up. I'd also cut off all support for more than 2 kids. If you want to breed, you pay. Fund Planned Parenhood for Latin America if Latin America wants their service, but let Latin America know there's no more room in the US inn. Of course the Deep State needs to get the hell out of Latin America as well. Also, end this asinine war on drugs since that thing is messing things up here in the US and Latin America. Finally, terminate all free trade deals and nuke neoliberalism's hold on Latin America. In short, treat Latin America as adults and not children and let them decide their own future. As for the US, the Deep State and neoliberal empire shit needs to stop. Mother nature will consign us to a new dark age if we don't. Empires fall from hubris and overstretch.  This is what we're doing now. Mother nature will have her way, whether we like it or not. She's calling now, the world's literally burning up. Fires are raging worldwide and Europe is baking.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-05-2018, 01:28 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(08-04-2018, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.

Illegal immigration comes from the law that states that the US has a right to allow a certain number of folks to come here. Border control is a fundamental function of any nation state. The no borders/let everyone in people are fools of the first order. These people are also the useful idiots of neoliberalism. Let's use actual logic here. The US land can only support so many people. Right now there are already too many people. The news that the birth rate has already fallen below replacement is good news, not bad news.  I know rags like Reuters think its bad news and to neoliberals it is bad news because a falling population means fewer people that can be exploited. Fewer workers means higher salaries. Here are some more awesome things we can have: More room for wildlife, more fresh water, less green house gases, lower housing prices, more food per capita, less traffic, and less pollution. Always remember and never forget, population overshoot is the ultimate ponzi scheme. In any event, a voluntary reduction in population is far better than what mother nature will do if we do not stop this breeding shit. Climate change is already locked and loaded to crash the food supply since the US bread basket is going to bake, along with Australia's and Brazil's. So folks are going to starve in nations that insist on breeding or importing more people. So yeah, we need the wall in places, drones, ICE, mandatory Everify + high fines for cheating companies, and Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is where Trump is messing up. I'd also cut off all support for more than 2 kids. If you want to breed, you pay. Fund Planned Parenhood for Latin America if Latin America wants their service, but let Latin America know there's no more room in the US inn. Of course the Deep State needs to get the hell out of Latin America as well. Also, end this asinine war on drugs since that thing is messing things up here in the US and Latin America. Finally, terminate all free trade deals and nuke neoliberalism's hold on Latin America. In short, treat Latin America as adults and not children and let them decide their own future. As for the US, the Deep State and neoliberal empire shit needs to stop. Mother nature will consign us to a new dark age if we don't. Empires fall from hubris and overstretch.  This is what we're doing now. Mother nature will have her way, whether we like it or not. She's calling now, the world's literally burning up. Fires are raging worldwide and Europe is baking.

Dude, climate change can be fixed with a simple transfer of trillions of dollars from the US economy and American lifestyle to the Liberal elite in Washington and a simple snap of fingers by the Greatest Liberal/ Progressive on Earth.

[Classic-Xer]

(08-04-2018, 08:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:



Where did the concept of "illegal immigration" even come from?

If you look at who has been kept out of the U.S. over the decades, being "illegal" has a lot to do with race.

Hey, I'm all for removing the wall and the borders/boundaries that separate YOU from the rest of the world and watching your blue world crumble and be over run like poor American Indians who had no concept of who/ what/ how many were coming as far as the impact on the future of their worlds.