Will a nationalist/cosmopolitan divide be the political axis of the coming saeculum?

[Einzige]

Far as I'm concerned, Warn, and from one atheist to another, you cocksuckers have been selling the rest of us out for a long time. You're basically the irreligious equivalent of a Log Cabin Republican.

Yes, yes, there are other issues to vote on than (the absence of) religion. But I'm far less concerned with the dividends drawn by a Baby Boomer one myocardial infarction away from never voting again than I am with not being a second-class citizen.

[pbrower2a]

The previous post by Einzige has been reported for a vile and explicit, homophobic reference.

Let's all keep this site family-friendly. We gain nothing with angry profanity.

[Warren Dew]

(11-06-2016, 11:17 PM)Einzige Wrote: Far as I'm concerned, Warn, and from one atheist to another, you cocksuckers have been selling the rest of us out for a long time. You're basically the irreligious equivalent of a Log Cabin Republican.

Yes, yes, there are other issues to vote on than (the absence of) religion. But I'm far less concerned with the dividends drawn by a Baby Boomer one myocardial infarction away from never voting again than I am with not being a second-class citizen.

The funny thing is, all the religious conservatives I've ever met - and that's a lot of them - are fine with my atheism as long as I don't attack their religiosity. But then, I'd agree that Log Cabin Republicans are the most sensible of gays, too.

But hey, at least we understand each other.

[Warren Dew]

(11-06-2016, 11:57 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The previous post by Einzige has been reported for a vile and explicit, homophobic reference.

What the heck was homophobic?  Conservativophobic, yes.

[Warren Dew]

Oh, that part. I figured it was just an empty insult. Perhaps he identifies as a New Atheist.

To be fair, there was a time when I preached atheism with the zeal of the newly converted, too, but due to the "congenital" part, I'd had my decade to get over that by age 10 or so.

[Kinser79]

[Off topic]Funny that it is hetrosexuals who are offended by the use of the term cocksucker. The resident fag on this board couldn't give a shit less about it.[/off topic]

Honestly, since I've long argued that Trump is the GC we've been waiting for, I strongly suspect that there will be a re-alignment of the political parties. What we can expect is that large sections of the sectarian libertarians will defect to the LP or to the Democrats, what is left of the robber baron cliques have or will defect to the Democrats.

Meanwhile we will see the following groups defecting to the GOP. Gays (as the religious rhetoric of the boomers dies down because they are dying out--the neo-prophets of this stripe are likely to be Democrat), Working Class People of all races, and those who adhere to a Civic Nationalism.

Indeed HRC lost New Hampshire which indicates to me that the blue wall is breaking down and we will likely see more and more defections to the GOP as Trump has expanded the GOP base, while HRC made the mistake of rejecting close to 40% of the total voter base and further went on to give them a name to rally behind.

As for the cosmopolitans...they are on the wane. It is post seasonal and long past post seasonal at that.

[Warren Dew]

I've thought the working class was there for the plucking for Republicans for some time now, as the Democrats concentrated on pandering to the welfare class at the cost of the working class. Trump did the right thing playing for their vote.

if the Republicans can expand "working class" to include salary earners as well as wage earners, they'll have the same enduring control of the House that the Democrats had starting with FDR. And frankly, Trump has a lot of FDR's characteristics as a coalition builder.

Religious libertarians, also known as the freedom caucus, hold the balance of power in both the House and the Senate, though. If they're forced to switch to Democrat, Republican control will collapse. I think the Republicans will try hard to hang on to them.

[Galen]

(11-11-2016, 12:27 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Religious libertarians, also known as the freedom caucus, hold the balance of power in both the House and the Senate, though.  If they're forced to switch to Democrat, Republican control will collapse.  I think the Republicans will try hard to hang on to them.

I think your right.  There are many Christians in Libertarian circles and even the atheists don't care as long as they adhere to the non-aggression principle.

[pbrower2a]

(11-11-2016, 03:49 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 12:27 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Religious libertarians, also known as the freedom caucus, hold the balance of power in both the House and the Senate, though.  If they're forced to switch to Democrat, Republican control will collapse.  I think the Republicans will try hard to hang on to them.

I think your right.  There are many Christians in Libertarian circles and even the atheists don't care as long as they adhere to the non-aggression principle.

1. Donald Trump is not a Christian. He believes in himself as God.

2. Three years later, Democrats control the House and seem likely to hold onto it. Republicans have a shaky hold on the Senate.

3. The Republican Party has come to endorse Big Government just as resolutely as the Democrats. The difference is the purpose, Republicans using Big Government to enforce the will of economic elites -- with severe aggression.

[Bill the Piper]

The basic polarity of the current 4T is populist-elitist, with nationalism as a secondary dimension of populism. The elites are well travelled, while those who cannot afford to travel are more parochial.

The next saeculum? Whoever wins the 4T becomes the establishment during the 1T. The polarity during the latter part of the saeculum will be those who will support the Neo-Missionary awakening versus those who will despise it. I see several possibilities:
- hedonism vs re-establishing classical moral virtues on the basis of Extropianism
- Earth worship vs space colonisation
- biological conservatism vs transhumanism

[Eric the Green]

(01-17-2020, 12:55 PM)Bill the Piper Wrote: The basic polarity of the current 4T is populist-elitist, with nationalism as a secondary dimension of populism. The elites are well travelled, while those who cannot afford to travel are more parochial.

The next saeculum? Whoever wins the 4T becomes the establishment during the 1T. The polarity during the latter part of the saeculum will be those who will support the Neo-Missionary awakening versus those who will despise it. I see several possibilities:
- hedonism vs re-establishing classical moral virtues on the basis of Extropianism
- Earth worship vs space colonisation
- biological conservatism vs transhumanism

Ah, I don't think so! The next awakening will fulfill the previous one, according to the cosmic schedule. The previous awakening came right on the cosmic schedule, and speeded up the turnings, when Uranus aligned with Pluto from 1963-1969. That brought the 2T after only 18 years. The next 2T will come right on schedule too, when Uranus opposes Pluto from about 2045-2049.  I expect it will also cut off the 1T to make it only 18 years, since the 4T will end in about 2029.

The next awakening will fulfill the previous one. 

That means it will center on earth worship, and bring us home from space colonization.

That means it will resist turning us into machines, and affirm our biological, organic heritage.

That means it will re-establish hedonism, but also classical moral virtues which cannot possibly be based on Extropianism, as far as I can tell, because character and personality are the outcome of spiritual practice and not the outcome of technological manipulation. Although technical aids of various kinds (including psychedelics) can help, and research into such psychedelics and new age methods are once again part of the frontier of psychological and scientific knowledge, as is knowledge of life after death and between lives. Another question is just what survival of life beyond Earth and the millions or 1 billion years we may still have here will consist of. It may not be about colonizing space, but instead learning to travel between dimensions and ascend to spiritual dimensions as described in the Celestine Prophecy, a huge bestseller in the 1990s, and as demonstrated 2000 years ago by Jesus.

That means it will further the new age ethos and worldviews, which mean a departure from the outdated physicalism and enlightenment rationalism as a primary and limiting basis for understanding, and while not rejecting them will be making them subordinate to spiritualism again as during the sixties/seventies awakening. Psychic and spiritual worlds will be further opened to us. This new worldview has been evolving through science, philosophy and spiritual awakenings for decades now, and was a major part of the sixties awakening, which will be fulfilled and expanded in the 2040s awakening. The general trend of culture is to develop new worldviews and reject gradually the dominance of outdated ones. Hence culture will not fully return to rationalism, physicalism and tech obsession, as these are now outdated.

Prophets, not civics, will power the youthful influences in the next 2T, so the civic technological obsession typical of millennials will not be the thrust of the next awakening, and it never is. No, young prophets will be powered by a spiritual awakening, as they always are, and as they were as well during the Social Gospel Awakening (I avoid labeling awakenings by the name of the prophet generation; even though prophets provide an important element, more than one generation contributes to awakenings. S&H have given appropriate names to these turnings). Prophets will not be physicalists who reject spiritual, esoteric, occult and psychic awareness, or call it superstition, but will expand this awareness, as will be sorely needed after the current physicalist regression powered by civic millennials and nomad Xers.

The more "appollonian" nature of the alpha-wave prophet generation will be evident in the 2050s in their strong interest in literature, ideas and in communications and networking, as the air-sign emphasis of the 21st century unfolds.

Even so, many millennials are now themselves rejecting narrow physicalism and are becoming more interested in spiritual and esoteric new-age pursuits these days, to the point that the 2020s will have awakening elements to them as well as the dominant civic concerns of a typical 4T.

As for space colonization, there is no viable place to colonize on any scale today, and there won't be-- until we break the light barrier, which will likely require ET help. As of now, mainstream culture has no evidence or contact with ETs, and this knowledge and contact, if it be such, is now confined to new age, pop, sci-fi and alternative cultures. The next Awakening may well further this knowledge of ETs, and possibly expand the knowledge of quantum entanglement and transference, which may be the beginning of breaking the light barrier.

No such expansion into space is viable until we learn to get along with all people, all life and all inorganic beings here on this sacred and alive Earth. We will not be allowed to export destructive and manipulative culture to other planets. That will be prohibited by the galactic federation, and by our own laws when the time comes.

[Eric the Green]

(01-12-2020, 12:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 03:49 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 12:27 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Religious libertarians, also known as the freedom caucus, hold the balance of power in both the House and the Senate, though.  If they're forced to switch to Democrat, Republican control will collapse.  I think the Republicans will try hard to hang on to them.

I think your right.  There are many Christians in Libertarian circles and even the atheists don't care as long as they adhere to the non-aggression principle.

1. Donald Trump is not a Christian. He believes in himself as God.

2. Three years later, Democrats control the House and seem likely to hold onto it. Republicans have a shaky hold on the Senate.

3. The Republican Party has come to endorse Big Government just as resolutely as the Democrats. The difference is the purpose, Republicans using Big Government to enforce the will of economic elites -- with severe aggression.

Exactly so. This distorted libertarian philosophy so typically represented by Galen, and pretty well by Warren as well, is certainly one of the ideologies that must be exported to the scrap heap of history, and it's long overdue and can't come soon enough to suit me.

Quote:I've thought the working class was there for the plucking for Republicans for some time now, as the Democrats concentrated on pandering to the welfare class at the cost of the working class. Trump did the right thing playing for their vote.

I think this is the nub of the issue that must be debunked. Republicans have indeed pandered to the lower middle class by making the poor the scapegoats of their insecurity for years now.

The "welfare class" (which typically is also an ethnic non-white class, making such references to welfare essentially racist), does not cost the working class anything. It is the wealthy who cost the working class, as has always been so, especially in the time of FDR. It is the billionaire class (as Bernie calls them incessantly) that keeps the working class's wages low, and their own salaries absurdly high to the point that extortion is a mild word for what they do. You can't blame low wages or even low salaries on people who get welfare. That is a miniscule part of state and federal budgets.

What's more, we are ALL in the welfare class, because we are ALL vulnerable to the capricious and malevolent behavior of the wealthy class. They export jobs, replace people with robots, fire people capriciously for no good reason, reduce wages and opportunities, and fire workers through mergers. They speculate with peoples' money through derivatives and other marginal investing, causing depressions which put millions out of work and out of their homes. They buy our elections and our politicians and ruin our democracy, and devastate the state institutions that protect us from them. They savage our environment which we depend on for life ruthlessly in the name of free enterprise. Their tax cuts pass on huge government debt to our descendants. There is no limit to the blame and the evil now perpetrated by the wealthy class, so I can't spend all day typing out all their misconduct. I'm sure brower can add to the description.

NO, social and "welfare" spending helps the working class, not only by protecting them, but by stimulating the economy, because prosperity trickles up from people who spend money for what they need, rather than down from the few rich people who buy out and speculate with and hoard their money and export it abroad.

[Marypoza]

(01-17-2020, 02:40 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-12-2020, 12:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 03:49 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 12:27 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Religious libertarians, also known as the freedom caucus, hold the balance of power in both the House and the Senate, though.  If they're forced to switch to Democrat, Republican control will collapse.  I think the Republicans will try hard to hang on to them.

I think your right.  There are many Christians in Libertarian circles and even the atheists don't care as long as they adhere to the non-aggression principle.

1. Donald Trump is not a Christian. He believes in himself as God.

2. Three years later, Democrats control the House and seem likely to hold onto it. Republicans have a shaky hold on the Senate.

3. The Republican Party has come to endorse Big Government just as resolutely as the Democrats. The difference is the purpose, Republicans using Big Government to enforce the will of economic elites -- with severe aggression.

Exactly so. This distorted libertarian philosophy so typically represented by Galen, and pretty well by Warren as well, is certainly one of the ideologies that must be exported to the scrap heap of history, and it's long overdue and can't come soon enough to suit me.

Quote:I've thought the working class was there for the plucking for Republicans for some time now, as the Democrats concentrated on pandering to the welfare class at the cost of the working class. Trump did the right thing playing for their vote.

I think this is the nub of the issue that must be debunked.

The "welfare class" (which typically is also an ethnic non-white class, making such references to welfare essentially racist), does not cost the working class anything. It is the wealthy who cost the working class, as has always been so, especially in the time of FDR. It is the billionaire class (as Bernie calls them incessantly) that keeps the working class's wages low, and their own salaries absurdly high to the point that extortion is a mild word for what they do. You can't blame low wages or even low salaries on people who get welfare. That is a miniscule part of state and federal budgets.

What's more, we are ALL in the welfare class, because we are ALL vulnerable to the capricious and malevolent behavior of the wealthy class. They export jobs, replace people with robots, fire people capriciously for no good reason, reduce wages and opportunities, and fire workers through mergers. They speculate with peoples' money through derivatives and other marginal investing, causing depressions which put millions out of work and out of their homes. They buy our elections and our politicians and ruin our democracy, and devastate the state institutions that protect us from them. They savage our environment which we depend on for life ruthlessly in the name of free enterprise. Their tax cuts pass on huge government debt to our descendants. There is no limit to the blame and the evil now perpetrated by the wealthy class, so I can't spend all day typing out all their misconduct. I'm sure brower can add to the description.

NO, social and "welfare" spending helps the working class, not only by protecting them, but by stimulating the economy, because prosperity trickles up from people who spend money for what they need, rather than down from the few rich people who buy out and speculate with and hoard their money and export it abroad.

-- jeez Eric you're sounding alot like Bernie yourself. Can we get u 2 vote 4 him this time out?

[Eric the Green]

The utopian libertarian philosophy is a tempting ruse that has ruined our society for 40 years or more, and counting. It must be debunked at every opportunity.

It is a tempting philosophy indeed. What they claim to offer is "freedom" and the "non-aggression principle." It sounds great. Who is in favor of the use of violent force on people, and who doesn't want "freedom?" Who is really a big fan of big government? Especially considering how often our politicians and officials lie to us?

What it denies is the fallibility of human beings, especially those human beings who have lots of money and power. Libertarians say we can reduce government and laws and trust people to behave well. But, THEY DON'T. As one famous line from a horror movie says, "I wish we had wings! BUT WE DON'T!"

So we need laws to regulate our behavior. As Thomas More said, human laws not god's, without which horrific winds would blow. And when libertarians succeed as they often have these last 40 years in unleashing anarchy among us, these winds blow. Literally in places like California fanning the flames of climate change-empowered wildfires. And to think Thomas was defending the right of laws to apply to my own direct ancestor!

[Marypoza]

(01-17-2020, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The utopian libertarian philosophy is a tempting ruse that has ruined our society for 40 years or more, and counting. It must be debunked at every opportunity.

It is a tempting philosophy indeed. What they claim to offer is "freedom" and the "non-aggression principle." It sounds great. Who is in favor of the use of violent force on people, and who doesn't want "freedom?" Who is really a big fan of big government? Especially considering how often our politicians and officials lie to us?

What it denies is the fallibility of human beings, especially those human beings who have lots of money and power. Libertarians say we can reduce government and laws and trust people to behave well. But, THEY DON'T. As one famous line from a horror movie says, "I wish we had wings! BUT WE DON'T!"

So we need laws to regulate our behavior. As Thomas More said, human laws not god's, without which horrific winds would blow. And when libertarians succeed as they often have these last 40 years in unleashing anarchy among us, these winds blow. Literally in places like California fanning the flames of climate change-empowered wildfires. And to think Thomas was defending the right of laws to apply to my own direct ancestor!

-- ok l'll bite.. who was the ancestor? Henry the 8th?

[Eric the Green]

Ah, when populists were real populists. Hear Willie Stark in the year I was born, aka Huey Long!

(another Oscar-winning performance, like the above-- made in the year of my REbirth)





Some comments:

Rodney Leon
4 years ago
Broderick Crawford won an Academy Award as best actor of 1949 for his role as a ruthless, scheming Southern political boss in "All the King's Men" but was better-known to later generations as the beefy chief of television's "Highway Patrol."

Jorge Fallas
10 months ago
Like the Hicks in the US, with Huey Long in the "share the wealth" program to the descamisados (shirtless) of Juan Domingo Peron in Argentina, populism has been a strong movement in America.

Internet Omatic
2 months ago
Huey Long wasn't a reactionary who was blaming immigrants; he was a leftist who blamed the bourgeoisie...

Grant Kruse
8 months ago
Kinda looks like a MAGA rally...You can see why they fell in love w the Orange One (can you remember when they called him a great business man). So that explains the falling IN love, but they should soon see that there are at least 2 others that have won his heart: He's openly in love w Kim jun un, but still "closeted" in his love for Putin...Amerikka needs to divorce this fellow and his whole cronyism gang and system....

Voimakas
10 years ago
Now we just need a modern day Huey to pull Congress and President Obama to the left like Long did with FDR.
"How many men ever been to a barbecue and would let one man take off the table what's intended for nine tenths of the people to eat? The only way you'll ever feed the balance of the people is to make that man come back here and bring back some of that grub he ain't got no business with."

Flat Earth Socialist
2 months ago
A great socialist like Huey Long. Even today, SOCIAL JUSTICE would demand that We the working People go after the 2% of this country who have gross levels of wealth horded. It needs to be TAKEN from them! Taken by force! And then broken up to be distributed as bonus checks for all the working poor and disabled people here in the USA, regardless of race. The working men of all races must UNITE against the oligarchy of Trump. Trump does not represent the white working man. So stop supporting that piece of human scum. If you are white and aren't rich, Trump HATES YOU. Get it through your head you Trumptards. Trump has never worked a day in his life. He has only "shifted money around". Invested money here and there to make more money. Just shifting around millions on paper. Millions that he inherited from BIRTH. Don't ever believe these stupid "rags to riches" stories. It's a load of crap. The rich get richer and exploit us. The poor get poorer. That is..until we TAKE IT BACK FROM THEM!

[Eric the Green]

(01-17-2020, 03:08 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-17-2020, 02:40 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-12-2020, 12:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 03:49 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 12:27 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Religious libertarians, also known as the freedom caucus, hold the balance of power in both the House and the Senate, though.  If they're forced to switch to Democrat, Republican control will collapse.  I think the Republicans will try hard to hang on to them.

I think your right.  There are many Christians in Libertarian circles and even the atheists don't care as long as they adhere to the non-aggression principle.

1. Donald Trump is not a Christian. He believes in himself as God.

2. Three years later, Democrats control the House and seem likely to hold onto it. Republicans have a shaky hold on the Senate.

3. The Republican Party has come to endorse Big Government just as resolutely as the Democrats. The difference is the purpose, Republicans using Big Government to enforce the will of economic elites -- with severe aggression.

Exactly so. This distorted libertarian philosophy so typically represented by Galen, and pretty well by Warren as well, is certainly one of the ideologies that must be exported to the scrap heap of history, and it's long overdue and can't come soon enough to suit me.

Quote:I've thought the working class was there for the plucking for Republicans for some time now, as the Democrats concentrated on pandering to the welfare class at the cost of the working class. Trump did the right thing playing for their vote.

I think this is the nub of the issue that must be debunked.

The "welfare class" (which typically is also an ethnic non-white class, making such references to welfare essentially racist), does not cost the working class anything. It is the wealthy who cost the working class, as has always been so, especially in the time of FDR. It is the billionaire class (as Bernie calls them incessantly) that keeps the working class's wages low, and their own salaries absurdly high to the point that extortion is a mild word for what they do. You can't blame low wages or even low salaries on people who get welfare. That is a miniscule part of state and federal budgets.

What's more, we are ALL in the welfare class, because we are ALL vulnerable to the capricious and malevolent behavior of the wealthy class. They export jobs, replace people with robots, fire people capriciously for no good reason, reduce wages and opportunities, and fire workers through mergers. They speculate with peoples' money through derivatives and other marginal investing, causing depressions which put millions out of work and out of their homes. They buy our elections and our politicians and ruin our democracy, and devastate the state institutions that protect us from them. They savage our environment which we depend on for life ruthlessly in the name of free enterprise. Their tax cuts pass on huge government debt to our descendants. There is no limit to the blame and the evil now perpetrated by the wealthy class, so I can't spend all day typing out all their misconduct. I'm sure brower can add to the description.

NO, social and "welfare" spending helps the working class, not only by protecting them, but by stimulating the economy, because prosperity trickles up from people who spend money for what they need, rather than down from the few rich people who buy out and speculate with and hoard their money and export it abroad.

-- jeez Eric you're sounding alot like Bernie yourself. Can we get u 2 vote 4 him this time out?

Oh yeah, I just re-registered Democrat so I could do it!

[Eric the Green]

(01-17-2020, 03:41 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-17-2020, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The utopian libertarian philosophy is a tempting ruse that has ruined our society for 40 years or more, and counting. It must be debunked at every opportunity.

It is a tempting philosophy indeed. What they claim to offer is "freedom" and the "non-aggression principle." It sounds great. Who is in favor of the use of violent force on people, and who doesn't want "freedom?" Who is really a big fan of big government? Especially considering how often our politicians and officials lie to us?

What it denies is the fallibility of human beings, especially those human beings who have lots of money and power. Libertarians say we can reduce government and laws and trust people to behave well. But, THEY DON'T. As one famous line from a horror movie says, "I wish we had wings! BUT WE DON'T!"

So we need laws to regulate our behavior. As Thomas More said, human laws not god's, without which horrific winds would blow. And when libertarians succeed as they often have these last 40 years in unleashing anarchy among us, these winds blow. Literally in places like California fanning the flames of climate change-empowered wildfires. And to think Thomas was defending the right of laws to apply to my own direct ancestor!

-- ok l'll bite.. who was the ancestor? Henry the 8th?

No no, that man was Richard Rich, my ancestor, who became chancellor under Henry VIII and Edward VI, who managed to cobble false charges against Thomas that got him killed by Henry. He was the ambitious "bad man" in the movie. Yes, Sir Rich is my direct ancestor. He was good to his servants though on his big estate. He even got a statue erected of him.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Rags made an interesting comment. What if this 4T turns out to be a dud?

What it is starting to look like to me in terms of turnings:

1. Boom Awakening.

2. Culture Wars 3T

3. Dud Crisis.

4. Weak 1T, characterized by a peace of exhaustion. This may seem almost a blank turning.

[Eric the Green]

(01-18-2020, 01:29 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Rags made an interesting comment.  What if this 4T turns out to be a dud?

What it is starting to look like to me in terms of turnings:

1.  Boom Awakening.

2.  Culture Wars 3T

3.  Dud Crisis.

4.  Weak 1T,  characterized by a peace of exhaustion.  This may seem almost a blank turning.

The 2010s was always going to be like this. I predicted it. The double rhythm saeculum means that the 2010s were the 1850s redux. We are about to enter a decade more like the 1860s. There will be no blank turnings.