The Middle Eastern question

[Bill the Piper]

(01-18-2019, 12:30 PM)David Horn Wrote: A lot of the discontent is due to the intransigence of the Israelis.  Perhaps it's their turn.

I have mixed feelings with regard to Israel. Yes, it's the only democracy in the region (except the fledglings Lebanon and Iraq). But the formation of Israel resulted in growth in Arab nationalism and fundamentalism, and many Arabs seemingly still think 1948 is "now". They have a longer time perspective than us - many young Britons would say 1948 is as relevant for them as the Middle Ages.

The correct response to the problem of antisemitism was assimilation. Physically most European Jews already looked European, they had at least as much White as Semitic ancestors. They could blend in, especially since most Christians also went secular during the millennial cycle.

But we are not in 1948. The solution must be an answer to the situation today, not 70+ years ago. Israel should at least stop identifying as a Jewish state, like South Africa stopped identifying as a Boer state. But Palestinians also have to abandon their fanatical nationalism. IMHO they are even more intransigent than Israel. They both need to stop identifying as Israeli or Palestinian and start identifying as world citizen, that's all. I used to support Israel, and still do in a way, but they are going more and more tribal. Soon they will be no better than the Palestianians.

[David Horn]

(01-21-2019, 04:44 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 12:30 PM)David Horn Wrote: A lot of the discontent is due to the intransigence of the Israelis.  Perhaps it's their turn.

I have mixed feelings with regard to Israel. Yes, it's the only democracy in the region (except the fledglings Lebanon and Iraq). But the formation of Israel resulted in growth in Arab nationalism and fundamentalism, and many Arabs seemingly still think 1948 is "now". They have a longer time perspective than us - many young Britons would say 1948 is as relevant for them as the Middle Ages.

The correct response to the problem of antisemitism was assimilation. Physically most European Jews already looked European, they had at least as much White as Semitic ancestors. They could blend in, especially since most Christians also went secular during the millennial cycle.

But we are not in 1948. The solution must be an answer to the situation today, not 70+ years ago. Israel should at least stop identifying as a Jewish state, like South Africa stopped identifying as a Boer state. But Palestinians also have to abandon their fanatical nationalism. IMHO they are even more intransigent than Israel. They both need to stop identifying as Israeli or Palestinian and start identifying as world citizen, that's all. I used to support Israel, and still do in a way, but they are going more and more tribal. Soon they will be no better than the Palestinians.

Israel has gone through a series of changes that have altered the politics of that nation dramatically in its 70 year history.  We Americans stood foursquare with the emerging state, and that goodwill has continued to this day, though its hard to see how that can continue into the future.  We had some assumptions about Israel that are melting away.  I can't see any potential two-state solution any longer, and the Israelis have already made non-Jewish residents into sub-class citizens -- even those who stuck with them in '48.  I agree, that smells like apartheid to me.  How that squares with US support in the future is questionable.  How it squares with European support is already in decline -- except for Germany, of course.  Germans can't afford to look even remotely anti-Semitic.

[Bill the Piper]

(01-21-2019, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: Israel has gone through a series of changes that have altered the politics of that nation dramatically in its 70 year history.  We Americans stood foursquare with the emerging state, and that goodwill has continued to this day, though its hard to see how that can continue into the future.  We had some assumptions about Israel that are melting away.  I can't see any potential two-state solution any longer, and the Israelis have already made non-Jewish residents into sub-class citizens -- even those who stuck with them in '48.  I agree, that smells like apartheid to me.  How that squares with US support in the future is questionable.  How it squares with European support is already in decline -- except for Germany, of course.  Germans can't afford to look even remotely anti-Semitic.

What made me even more sceptical of Israel is the fact that Trump and Bolsonaro are big supporters of this state.

[David Horn]

(01-22-2019, 05:09 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-21-2019, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: Israel has gone through a series of changes that have altered the politics of that nation dramatically in its 70 year history.  We Americans stood foursquare with the emerging state, and that goodwill has continued to this day, though its hard to see how that can continue into the future.  We had some assumptions about Israel that are melting away.  I can't see any potential two-state solution any longer, and the Israelis have already made non-Jewish residents into sub-class citizens -- even those who stuck with them in '48.  I agree, that smells like apartheid to me.  How that squares with US support in the future is questionable.  How it squares with European support is already in decline -- except for Germany, of course.  Germans can't afford to look even remotely anti-Semitic.

What made me even more sceptical of Israel is the fact that Trump and Bolsonaro are big supporters of this state.

Yes, it's looking like the Rightwing Unity Movement (RUM).  No, I'm not going to run with that. 

[Ragnarök_62]

(01-27-2017, 08:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-27-2017, 06:50 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(01-27-2017, 05:48 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-31-2016, 05:22 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(12-31-2016, 08:56 AM)David Horn Wrote: So by your measure, Syria is no-win. What would you propose?  Other than the Kurds, we have no real friends in the area -- including the current regime in Turkey. 

Fish or cut bait?

Syria, like [Afghanistan,Iraq,Libya] are all no wins. I'm not sure what "fish or cut bait" means, but the fish pond where said fish reside are chock full of mercury which means we should just leave it be or suffer getting poisoned.

That would be cutting bait - cutting the fishing line and abandoning the bait and the fishing.

I can buy that. Cutting the fishing line = attempts to oust Assad, Bait = Assad , fishing = bombing the hell out of Syria. Mercury poisoning = blowback

Fishing=NATO bombing the hell out of Islamic radicals for the NATO/Kurdish army & Russia bombing the hell out of Islamic radicals for the Syrian army. I assume there will be a line drawn where the Kurdish/NATO & Syrian forces meet and shake hands and begin the diplomatic process to make the line permanent. Result. A new Kurdistan backed by NATO and a more democratic Syria backed by Russia.

That won't work.

1. Turkey is in NATO and Turkey hates the Kurds. that means NATO and Kurds = fluorine + cesium = explosion. 2 things that can't exist in close proximity.


2, The happy faces happen when Syria absorbs the Kurds , lets them be as before the US decided to make a mess, and Russia/Syria diplomacy provides security guarantees for Turkey as far as Kurds messing in Turkeys internal affairs. There is no need for the rest of NATO besides Turkey to do anythings.  The democracy thing is a red herring since the US is really a flawed democracy.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nat.../97041946/

The US is more of an oligarchy. You know we're pretty much just like Russia. It's the dough that counts, not the votes, man.

[Ragnarök_62]

(01-22-2019, 05:09 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-21-2019, 01:00 PM)David Horn Wrote: Israel has gone through a series of changes that have altered the politics of that nation dramatically in its 70 year history.  We Americans stood foursquare with the emerging state, and that goodwill has continued to this day, though its hard to see how that can continue into the future.  We had some assumptions about Israel that are melting away.  I can't see any potential two-state solution any longer, and the Israelis have already made non-Jewish residents into sub-class citizens -- even those who stuck with them in '48.  I agree, that smells like apartheid to me.  How that squares with US support in the future is questionable.  How it squares with European support is already in decline -- except for Germany, of course.  Germans can't afford to look even remotely anti-Semitic.

What made me even more sceptical of Israel is the fact that Trump and Bolsonaro are big supporters of this state.

Yeah, I can say this for Israel. They sure do know how to build pretty effective walls. I think the US should contract out our wall building to Israel in exchange for those weapons we give to them.

[Ragnarök_62]

(01-18-2019, 02:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-15-2019, 12:13 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(01-14-2019, 11:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If and when the USA leaves Eastern Syria, Turkey will attack the Kurds. What will Turkey do after attacking them? Will it seize the territory, or just turn it over to Assad? Or maybe Assad and Turkey, former enemies, both attack, and then attack each other again. Russia will support Assad, but what will it do about the Kurds? Will they defend them, or let them be slaughtered? Or join the slaughter? What will this do to USA credibility as an ally, if that's important? Leaving them in the lurch after they defeated the IS for us, does not seem in good faith. But, maybe that doesn't matter. The US troops will be home, and we can defend our shores. If the IS rebounds, that won't matter. If the Kurds are massacred, that makes no difference to us. As Neville Chamberlain said, they are too far away to concern us.

Rags sez if we stay in Eastern Syria we piss off the Turks. But we have been there for some time, and that has deterred them from attacking.

So, we'll see what happens. Another major war is predicted by the planets to break out either at the beginning (or more likely, at the end) of the year 2020. The USA probably will stay out, but it will be involved somehow anyway, and we'll reap the whirlwind with more intervention likely as the US war cycle comes around again in 2025. OK, my crystal ball is going out for the nite.

Uh, no. The best thing to happen would be if the Kurds make nice with Assad.  That way Turkey will lay off. There is no reason why the US should bother with every little tin pot hissy fit in the world. And yes, I'm gonna vote for Tulsi because she's the only one who's down on this road to ruin empire business. The US is just a shit hole country with nukes because we can't keep our hands to ourselves. Domestic priorities come fist. I'm a nationalist, but not like Trump.

http://www.metrolyrics.com/id-like-to-te...ekers.html

Updated for us Oscar the grouch types.


Updated for us poet types who like the lines to scan with the music:

I'd like to build infra--structure
and furnish it with steel
grow lots of clean renewables
and single payer too
I'd like the world to just fuck off
in perfect harmony.
I'd like to shove it all away
so I don't have to pay


I'd love to make all Neocons
and Neolibs to cry
and hear them echo through the hills
for peace throughout the land

a new plan for the land....  .

You can't make nice with Assad. He's not nice. He wants total obedience. No protests, or you die. The Kurds want democracy. Assad and Kurds don't play nice together. It won't work. Assad will slaughter them like he has almost everyone else in his enslaved country.

Kurds making nice with Assad will piss off Turkey. Assad and Turkey are enemies. No, the USA can't deal with every hissy fit in the world, I agree. And we have our own priorities to attend to. 

But Tulsi is a phony. Not only does she support a genodical mass murderer, but she is a Hindu nationalist, and doesn't care about what happens to anyone except her own kind. She supports drone wars too, and hates Iran. She wanted us to drop MORE bombs on the Syrian rebels. I myself will not even vote for Tulsi if she's the nominee against Trump, and she's the ONLY Democrat I won't vote for in that case. She's a fool and a creepy deceiver believer. No, I don't vote for conspiracy theory. I do have at least SOME use for actual facts! Not propaganda based on nothing, like Tulsi uses! NO ON TULSI!

Assad:  Yup,  just bad and worse.  Assad is bad/other options are worse.
Kurds:  Their problem is that they are insufferable dupes and suckers. Assad is now their only option. Turkey is assured to clobber any sort of independent Kurdistan. They need to learn to stop listening to the US siren song assuring them of anything.
Tulsi: Well, I like her domestic agenda, but as you've mentioned her foreign policy is lacking. The way I interpret it is yup, she does not like "terrorist groups/countries" while at the same time is a bit more discerning as to the use of force. IOW, she ignores the impact on other nations, but does heed impacts wrt troops. So there, I'd like the most isolationist choice there is. So...

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you might find
You get what you need 

[Bill the Piper]

(01-22-2019, 01:35 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-22-2019, 05:09 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: What made me even more sceptical of Israel is the fact that Trump and Bolsonaro are big supporters of this state.

Yes, it's looking like the Rightwing Unity Movement (RUM).  No, I'm not going to run with that. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-nationalism

It looks the neo-populist and neo-reactionary movements aim at a Pan-Occidentalism, parallel to Saddam's Pan-Arabism. Israel is viewed as a Western nation, because it's ruling class is mostly Ashkenazi (i.e has strong White admixture and looks White, in addition to following Western cultural norms).

Rum (like Baccardi) is however a wonderful thing.

[Hintergrund]

(01-21-2019, 04:44 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Israel should at least stop identifying as a Jewish state, like South Africa stopped identifying as a Boer state. But Palestinians also have to abandon their fanatical nationalism. IMHO they are even more intransigent than Israel. They both need to stop identifying as Israeli or Palestinian and start identifying as world citizen, that's all. I used to support Israel, and still do in a way, but they are going more and more tribal. Soon they will be no better than the Palestianians.

They won't like to do that, after they saw how SA developed.