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Millennials and GenZ horribly misidentified
#61
(Yesterday, 07:22 AM)NobodyImportant Wrote:
(05-21-2019, 11:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As for Mr. Nobody Important, 4Ts are never resolved in favor of conservatives. Being a conservative, you do not have the right frame of mind to interpret the 4T or today's generations. What conservatives of today such as yourself think are "something better," are something worse.

That is complete nonsense.
And the issue is precisely that people like you are trying to make things a partisan issue.
This is one of the reasons, as i said, why millennials fail to command any real public support. You cannot ignore the issues the majority of society face and just say that they are not valid issues and "bad" and your side will always win anyways, and expect things to actually go your way. This is why your postergirl AOC became the laughingstock of the nation.

And AOC being a complete moron had nothing to do with it? And don't get me wrong, I firmly believe she is a moron. She got elected as a democrat in a safe democrat district. New York is highly gerrymandered.

Quote:Browbeating and getting on a high horse and telling others their concerns don't matter because only *your* issues matter, and you don't have to actually be pragmatic about those either, because your idealism will solve anything..... And the opposition is conservative/white/male/cis/straight, anyway so they can't possibly understand, and they'll just have to accept that you know better.... That does not work.
And that is exactly what a lot of millennials including you are doing (on both sides of the aisle mind you).

Actually that is Eric being Eric. He isn't going to change. Also Eric is a Boomer not a Millie. I can only thank whatever gods may exist that this is the case because it means he will be dead soon and I'll have some peace at last.

Quote:You decry me as conservative and bound to fail, because i address things that you don't like, and the conservative millennials would quite possibly decry me a liberal and etc, because i address things that they don't like.
This is the reason the generation is going nowhere and it will also not go anywhere.
Hero generations cannot be blindly idealistic. Which is why i say that GenZ is much more likely to actually be the heroes.

Gen Z may become heroes but they are not civics and it is the civic nature of the Millennial Generation that defines them. The "Hero" label fits poorly on them like it fit poorly on the Glorious. While many civic generations become heroic, not all of them do. Heroism can be taken up by any generation which is why it is common for people on this forum to use Civic as opposed to Hero.

Are Millennials building institutions like civic generations are supposed to do? They are and thus have not failed. It remains to be seen if those institutions that they are building can survive the storm of the coming 2T, but it will be the 2040s or 2050s before that happens.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#62
(Yesterday, 04:29 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: -Violent crime and gun crime in particular are non-issues 
-Climate Change is a bug bear.
-I think because they are still quite young they are still in their natural liberal phase.

a) And here we see the exact classic example of what i've been saying above. The issues have been taken ownership of.
You as a conservative will deny clear facts and objective statistics, to claim the first two things there, just like liberals will deny clear facts and objective truths about immigration, globalism, and free speech.

b) Some of them will be 40 now. They are not that young.
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#63
AOC isn't a complete moron. She thinks the way i described and got voted in because a lot of people think the way i described. Look at pictures of her addressing people disagreeing with her. The utter contempt and refusal to acknowledge that their pragmatic concerns might be relevant. This is the exact same thing third wave feminists, free speech absolutists, alt righters, blacklivesmatter people, and eco awares are doing.
GenY aren't building institutions.
GenY aren't building anything.
And Eric being a boomer and you being GenX doesn't change the fact that you act *exactly* the way millennials act.
And they are the ones pushing and popularizing this idea by wholly buying into it that issues have pownership, and if you care about the issues of the other side you are a bad person and not a "true" progressive/conservative.
The ideological purity tests and moral outrage culture and whatnot is precisely what goes a long way to prevent any actual change occurring because through them dialog causing unity among the populace is impossible.

And this is why GenZ seem to me like the more probably hero generation, and not yet the ones "coming of age in a stable society". Because they are much more pragmatic in everything they do.

Of course millennials aren't the only ones thinking that only they hold the truth, every single goddamn generation does that.
But millennials are the first ones to publicly eschew pragmatism.
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#64
(Yesterday, 08:45 AM)NobodyImportant Wrote: AOC isn't a complete moron.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  The GND was half-baked at best, and she regularly makes herself a laughing stock outside of New York.  One has to conclude that either she is comedic relief or that she is a moron.  Occam's razor dictates the simplest answer is probably the best.

Quote:She thinks the way i described and got voted in because a lot of people think the way i described.

Or perhaps she just happened to run in a safe district where a Republican can't win.  Many people vote based on how they are registered--for good or ill--so if you have a district that is say 80% one party it is extremely difficult for the other party to win.  Her district is extremely safe.  In short people voted for her because she has a hispanic last name and a D after her name.

Quote:Look at pictures of her addressing people disagreeing with her. The utter contempt and refusal to acknowledge that their pragmatic concerns might be relevant.

Maybe she has that utter contempt because she is too stupid to realize that by doing this very thing she's limiting her political career to being a minor legislator electable in only safe districts.  This of course leads me back to my idea that maybe she's a moron.


Quote:GenY aren't building institutions.
GenY aren't building anything.

So there aren't any Millies starting businesses?  Running for office?  Getting things done?  I'm starting to wonder if you're delusional.  I mean you could not see it because it isn't conforming to your per-concieved notions of what they should be doing (a crime of which many here are guilty), but to say that they aren't doing these things is absurd.

Quote:And Eric being a boomer and you being GenX doesn't change the fact that you act *exactly* the way millennials act.

LOL, Eric is being Eric and does not represent Boomers writ large.  Rather Eric is a collection of their very worst traits taken to their logical extreme.  As for me...I've mostly checked out provided that the larger world isn't trying to tax my business into oblivion.

Quote:And they are the ones pushing and popularizing this idea by wholly buying into it that issues have pownership, and if you care about the issues of the other side you are a bad person and not a "true" progressive/conservative.

I don't even know what any of that even means.  Perhaps you might want to break it down and write it out in English rather than your own created jargon.

Quote:The ideological purity tests and moral outrage culture and whatnot is precisely what goes a long way to prevent any actual change occurring because through them dialog causing unity among the populace is impossible.

Ideological purity tests and outrage culture is a product exclusively of the Left.  Were there any on the Right Trump clearly smashed through it.  He isn't ideologically pure in any sense and he responds to outrage culture by being outrageous.  Too bad that the Establishment Republicans took down Milo.  I would have loved him being press secretary.

Quote:And this is why GenZ seem to me like the more probably hero generation, and not yet the ones "coming of age in a stable society". Because they are much more pragmatic in everything they do.

Zeds are more pragmatic.  They may even become heroes at some point but they lack the civic drive that Millies do.  Their Gen X parents did not, and will not, inculcate that into them.

Quote:Of course millennials aren't the only ones thinking that only they hold the truth, every single goddamn generation does that.
But millennials are the first ones to publicly eschew pragmatism.

Actually I'd argue that it is only some of that generation, largely ones from the coastal cities and living in la-la land.  Or as we seem to be calling it these days "higher education".  So we're really talking about upper-middle class white Millies and not the whole generation.

If a 4T is Winter you should expect to see snowflakes now and then.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#65
She might be stupid to do those things but she is doing them because she thinks that THAT IS RIGHT. In this sense GenY are entitled, because a lot of people actually think like her. GenYers.

Millies are running businesses and whatnot, but businesses aren't institutions. As Eric said, AOC is the perfect example. What millennials do amounts to about as much as AOC the "prime millennial" 's stuff does. And no, they are not getting *anything* done. Look around you. The only thing they are changing is societies attitudes, and that only in their filterbubbles as well.

I explained the issues having ownership thing in my previous post, but here again:
Parties have taken ownership of issues. They are the ones that deal with those issues and the other party doesn't even *acknowledge* the issues. And vice versa. This ensures that people like millennials who want change can never actually command any big sweeping majority to make it happen. Because half the populace will care about the issues of the other side which they will never see represented on the one side.

"Too bad that the Establishment Republicans took down Milo."
So you're saying.... the right is not over outrage culture either.
Sure, it's not the exact same things to be outraged about, but the basic drive to end people's carreers over single remarks and declare someone unfit is still there. Just like how the right also keeps itself ideologically clean, with Trump being a minor outlier. This is precisely why it was so important to have him elected. But even he doesn't really take up too many causes of the left to actually care about.

"they lack the civic drive that Millies do" Well they might lack the drive for it but they possess the faculties. They can actually see that sneering at your opposition á la AOC is not something that will get you far, as opposed to millennials whose basic mode of operation is just that.

I'm not from america, so i can confidently say that no it's not just the bay and nyc areas lol.
Millennials have been *the* cohort to hate brexit. And why? Because that's how things are supposed to be.
Ignoring the pragmatic issues that others had with the EU. The millennials are also the ones who bought into the "refugees welcome" idiocy the most. Because it sounds good in theory.
Millenials make up a large part of black blocs and anarchocommunists and whatnot. Becuase it sounds good in theory
Conversely it's also millennials who gave rise to the alt right, who gave rise to free speech absolutists, and who wanted ronpaul and anarchocapitalism the most. Why? *Because it sounds good in theory.*

It's not just coastal and ivory tower people. It's more or less the entire generation, and i'd know - i can see them all around me on two different continents.
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#66
Millennials have not yet had time to really change anything, any more than the boomers in the 60s could only speak up and protest. But they finally stopped a war and ushered in some reforms in the 70s. Look for millennials to be the force behind lots of good reforms in the 2020s, unless people really blow it and nominate losers for president.

Millennials didn't give rise to the alt right. Mr. breitbart and his cohorts are not/were not millennials. Bannon is not a millennial. Gen Xers were behind Ron Paul and all the libertarian nutcases. They are the individualists and free market lovers.

"AOC the prime millennial" I like that name or, uh, meme....
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#67
(Yesterday, 07:22 AM)NobodyImportant Wrote:
(05-21-2019, 11:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As for Mr. Nobody Important, 4Ts are never resolved in favor of conservatives. Being a conservative, you do not have the right frame of mind to interpret the 4T or today's generations. What conservatives of today such as yourself think are "something better," are something worse.

That is complete nonsense.
And the issue is precisely that people like you are trying to make things a partisan issue.
Everything today IS a partisan issue, and I didn't make it so.

Quote:This is one of the reasons, as i said, why millennials fail to command any real public support. You cannot ignore the issues the majority of society face and just say that they are not valid issues and "bad" and your side will always win anyways, and expect things to actually go your way. This is why your postergirl AOC became the laughingstock of the nation.
She is just a prophet putting forth good ideas like the Green New Deal about where everyone with any sense just knows we need to go. Practical details will be worked out. The majority of society supports the millennials' positions by a small margin. Those opposed to them are creepy conservative alt-right hypnotized Trumpist fools.

Quote:Browbeating and getting on a high horse and telling others their concerns don't matter because only *your* issues matter, and you don't have to actually be pragmatic about those either, because your idealism will solve anything..... And the opposition is conservative/white/male/cis/straight, anyway so they can't possibly understand, and they'll just have to accept that you know better.... That does not work.
And that is exactly what a lot of millennials including you are doing (on both sides of the aisle mind you).
I am not a millennial; you can't tell??!!

I am not the strategist telling pols and pundits what to say. I don't know what rhetoric and persuasion will work. It's a good question for those of us on our side; no doubt we need to work on it. But in the end, among other things, all we can do is point out the facts, and point to solutions that will work. Those who oppose us, of course, deny and lie and obfuscate, and that won't change. It's up to the people to discern the truth. I'm sorry that you can't, yet. Being Generation X, I suppose, there may not be much hope for you. A lot of your generation is hooked on false ideologies like Reaganomics.

Quote:You decry me as conservative and bound to fail, because i address things that you don't like, and the conservative millennials would quite possibly decry me a liberal and etc, because i address things that they don't like.

I don't see much in your posts that is liberal, or that conservatives would not agree with.

Quote:This is the reason the generation is going nowhere and it will also not go anywhere.
Hero generations cannot be blindly idealistic. Which is why i say that GenZ is much more likely to actually be the heroes.

If you say idealism doesn't work, and that heroes can't be blindly idealistic, doesn't that imply that Gen Y/millennials CAN be heroes, in your eyes? If S&H dating of generations and archetypes are correct, which I think they are, then Gen Z are adaptives, and they in their youth are get along to go along types, not heroes. That's why they are called adaptive.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#68
(05-21-2019, 11:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(05-08-2019, 12:05 PM)michael_k Wrote:
(05-04-2019, 04:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The 1997-2003 cohorts are NOW acting civically about guns, about climate change, and about inequality, college debt and low wages. Unlike you, they know these issues are civic and are on the ballot for a vote. They are just coming into their own as a civic generation, and we haven't seen anything yet from millennials, born from 1982 to 2003.

I think it's unfair to imply that earlier Millennials (1982-1996) are 'uncivic'. I mean there was the whole LGBT rights movement that sprang up as that group came of age, which had a huge impact on how differing sexualities and identities are perceived. The whole same-sex marriage movement would likely not have gotten off the ground if it wasn't for the earlier-wave Millennials, despite the Boomers and Gen Xers who later agreed that a law change was necessary to enfranchise a minority.

One of the reasons also why we see the later Millennials/Gen Zers making effective protest is due to the ideological groundwork laid out by the first wave. There are politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (b. 1989) and Sarah Hanson-Young (b. 1981) who are markedly more progressive than many others elected in their field, but both these women have had to endure being the devil of the conservative media and all the smears associated with it. Being a 1991 born Australian myself, if you are caught supporting Hanson-Young too loudly within a moderate-conservative audience of older people you are likely to be called an idiot and told to 'f*** off'. As a cohort of downtrodden, frustrated and quietly-progressive adults are formed, you have a lot higher chance of vocal youth movements not being shrugged off before they can gain traction - they'll have backing from some of the older crowd as well.

I think one of the frustrations that arose with the older wave of Millennials is that we were expected to be 'heroes' by the older generation, but within a framework we did not consent to, as if everyone was trying to write what we'd stand for, for us. When we stepped too far outside of those margins, there was hostility and closed communication and we couldn't reach anyone no matter how much we cared or thought about things, which led to many 'giving up'. It makes me wonder if maybe the older wave of Millennials should be considered a Nomad-Hero hybrid generation, in that we have Civic ideals, but we tend to get be treated as Reactives when we attempt to express them.

I think I answered before that I don't think earlier millennials are uncivic. They have been typical of civics in many ways. They are late, unfortunately, in learning to participate in the civic process. But they are learning. The cynicism of recent years made it harder for our new civics to go against the grain, and not look upon our civic process as an inherent failure.

Protests are always resisted. If millennials continue to protest and take civic action to make a difference in society, despite the opposition of those who naturally don't want to listen and don't want to change, then that is heroic and typical of a civic generation. Lots of protests in the 1930s and 1850s were resisted by those upholding the status quo. It doesn't mean there's any hybrid developing. Everything is on schedule, and if the current time seems to stalemated and not changing like a 4T should seem, that's because it's a repeat of the 1850s, which really was part of the civil war 4T. It's a tougher job to change the society from within, than to face an external enemy from without.

We haven't seen anything yet from millennials. I hope it's clear that what I mean is that I predict a lot more activism from them in the next decade or more.

You did answer before, but this post was more concise. I think what people are forgetting also is that we are still too early in the game to be determining the legacy of Millennials. There are still a lot of frustrations and ideas on what the latest Civic Generation should be, but this is perhaps normal in a 4th Turning where knowledge of Generational Turnings exists and everyone is divided on what they think is the right course of action, resulting in a situation where the Civics may be considered heroes or failures in a myriad of ways before accurate conclusions can be reached.

As for the Millennial/Gen Z split, I feel like time will tell how significant the differences are between the two cohorts. I sort of see a correlation there with the early 'Interbellum' G.I.s being a bit different than the later ones, early G.I.s knew a world before the devastation of World War I and had reached adulthood before the Wall Street crash occurred, while the later wave grew up in a post-WWI world and saw the Great Depression begin during their teen/childhood years. A similar difference exists between Gen Y & Z, Generation Y grew up in a pre-9/11 world and endured the Financial Crisis in early adulthood, Generation Z entered childhood post-9/11 and saw the Financial Crisis hit before coming of age. Perhaps both cohorts will end up having a Civic role, but it will perhaps be expressed in different ways.

Just to put into perspective the timing of events, as I understand, a Saeculum lasts approximately 84 years, with each Generation lasting ~21 years, with specific events and happenings making each Generation and Saeculum potentially longer or shorter to adhere to the timeline. Using this as a guide, we can look at the defining point of the G.I. Generation, which was of course, World War II (1939-1945, middle year being 1942), and then pull the timeline forward 21 years at a time, where we have the 'defining' year for the Silents (1963 Kennedy assassination), likewise for the Boomers (1984 Reagan landslide re-election), Gen Xers (Hurricane Katrina and post 9/11 era, centered on 2005) and for the Millennials, this pinnacle year would be 2026, which has not yet occurred. True, some Generations come of age early, like the Lost Generation, whose defining year was not really 1921, but instead 1914, which would place 2019 (!) as the peak Millennial year if we do the 21-year math. This being said though, the Roaring Twenties was also a defining era for the Lost, and for those whose defining eras came earlier, like the 60s/70s for Boomers and 80s/90s for Gen X, in my mind these eras didn't cement the politics of those Generations as much as it defined the youth culture and the idealism - and idealism is not the be-all and end-all of politics. If we look at the Millennial equivalent of these formative cultural eras, we get the 2000s and the 2010s, which fits right in with Millennials still being politically idealistic at this point in time.

If we consider Millennials and Boomers to have a roughly 42-year gap, and Millennials as G.I. to have an 84-year gap, then the Obama Presidency (2008, 2012 elections) of the Millennials' timeline matches Coolidge's re-election (1924) and Hoover's election (1928) in the G.I. timeline, and I don't think the G.I. were that significant until F.D. Roosevelt's win in 1932, so if we are to give the Millennials credit for Obama's victory and not Gen X, then perhaps Millennials were politically active from an earlier stage. If we compare the Boomers' timeline to Millennials, we get 1966 lining up with 2008, which looks alright for the Boomers in a progressive sense as that was when the Cultural Awakening was picking up, but then we look at the politics and see Nixon being elected in 1968 AND 1972, which makes Boomers look politically conservative/apathetic in contrast with Millennials, at that time.

Wind the timelines forward to the Trump election and following mid-terms (2016, 2018) in the Millennial timeline and match them up to G.I.s and Boomers, and you get G.I.s witnessing the FDR election (1932) instead of Trump's and Boomers seeing the election of Carter (1976) 42 years before the 2018 mid-terms and their record turnout occur. One could argue here that the FDR/Trump difference is due to the G.I.s being part of an 'Apollonian' Saeculum, where society is more unified against outsiders, and the Millennials being in a 'Dionysian' Saeculum, where the society is at war with itself. There are interesting differences between the Civics here, with many Millennials opposing Trump and what I've heard about FDR being a hero to the G.I.s, but there are similarities too, with both Trump and FDR being touted as examples of strong leaders.

As for the comparison between Millennials and Boomers, maybe you could stretch and give some of the eldest Boomers credit for L.B. Johnson's election (1964) and perhaps compare that to Obama's in 2008 (a 44-year difference), but it seems that it took until Carter for many Boomers to take part in the election of a progressive candidate, and then you had Ronald Reagan.

All in all, I don't think Millennials are particularly behind or an outlier when you look at their predecessors.
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#69
(05-21-2019, 11:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As for Mr. Nobody Important, 4Ts are never resolved in favor of conservatives. Being a conservative, you do not have the right frame of mind to interpret the 4T or today's generations. What conservatives of today such as yourself think are "something better," are something worse.

True … and not. 4Ts get resolved by fresh thinking, and that can be hard to identify until it's right there in front of us. The new era will be totally different from the past in many ways, and all too familiar in others.  We've never had to deal with AGW and technological displacement before, but Gilded Age politics and economics isn't anything new.  And bad leaders?  We've had them in abundance throughout history.  Now, we need a plan to fix the new problems, and the old problems, while moving the world forward at the same time.

I agree, old ideas aren't going to cut it, and conservatives are nothing if not rooted in old paradigms.  The bigger problem is which new ideas will work, how do we know that, and how are they implemented.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#70
(Yesterday, 04:18 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-21-2019, 11:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As for Mr. Nobody Important, 4Ts are never resolved in favor of conservatives. Being a conservative, you do not have the right frame of mind to interpret the 4T or today's generations. What conservatives of today such as yourself think are "something better," are something worse.

Bullshit.

What is considered to be progressive is determined after the fact in the 1T.  The side that wins automatically proclaims itself to be progress because history is written by the victors.

True, but progress isn't mandated.  Bad ideas lead to bad results.  No one gets to claim that a failure is a great accomplishment just because they won.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#71
(Yesterday, 12:44 PM)NobodyImportant Wrote: She might be stupid to do those things but she is doing them because she thinks that THAT IS RIGHT.

Just because someone thinks that they are right doesn't mean that they are in fact wrong and in promotion of their perceived right acting stupidly. One's intelligence is not determined by the righteousness (real or perceived) of the cause.

Quote:Millies are running businesses and whatnot, but businesses aren't institutions.

In the broadest sense of what social institutions are they are in fact institutions. People work in businesses, buy their goods from businesses, an well do just about everything else with businesses where the government hasn't carved for itself a monopoly. Because an institution does not fit your preconceived notion of what an instituion is or should be does not mean it is not in fact an institution.

Quote: As Eric said,

I really don't care what Eric has said. Eric believes that humanity is ruled by planetary movements and has the scientific understanding of a medieval peasant. If you've not figured it out by now he's an idiot and is best made fun of or ignored.

AOC is the perfect example. What millennials do amounts to about as much as AOC the "prime millennial" 's stuff does. And no, they are not getting *anything* done. Look around you. The only thing they are changing is societies attitudes, and that only in their filterbubbles as well.

Quote:"Too bad that the Establishment Republicans took down Milo."
So you're saying.... the right is not over outrage culture either.

The Establishment Republicans are not on the right. The NeoCon estblishment are failed Trotskites actually, and thus leftists. The Paleo-con and Libertarian right is not interested in outrage culture. Furthermore it was pretty much the last gasp they had before they started their trek to oblivion or back to the Dimocrat party from whence they sprang.

Quote:"they lack the civic drive that Millies do" Well they might lack the drive for it but they possess the faculties. They can actually see that sneering at your opposition á la AOC is not something that will get you far, as opposed to millennials whose basic mode of operation is just that.

I sneer at the likes of AOC because she is a tempest in a teapot.

The ability to take on a heroic role is not and never has been the same as being part of a civic generation. Quite frankly Zeds are unlikely to do much more than slam the breaks on the most absurd of Millie absurdities--assuming the hard immovable object of reality doesn't crash it for them.

Quote:I'm not from america, so i can confidently say that no it's not just the bay and nyc areas lol.

If you're not from America then tell me where the media you consume from America is derived? From New York, LA and San Franshitsco. There is a reason that people like Eric fear "Fly Over Country", which is where the Real Americans live. America is more of a continent in and of itself than a single country-a la Europe.

Quote:Millennials have been *the* cohort to hate brexit. And why? Because that's how things are supposed to be.
Ignoring the pragmatic issues that others had with the EU. The millennials are also the ones who bought into the "refugees welcome" idiocy the most. Because it sounds good in theory.
Millenials make up a large part of black blocs and anarchocommunists and whatnot. Becuase it sounds good in theory
Conversely it's also millennials who gave rise to the alt right, who gave rise to free speech absolutists, and who wanted ronpaul and anarchocapitalism the most. Why? *Because it sounds good in theory.*

It's not just coastal and ivory tower people. It's more or less the entire generation, and i'd know - i can see them all around me on two different continents.

Having political connections with people in the Millienial generation in other countries just as many support Brexit. One shouldn't take BBC propaganda at face value just like they shouldn't take CNN propaganda at face value.
The drive behind Euroscepticism is not arising primarily from the old, it is coming more and more from the young as well. The same can be said increasing nationalism (which is a very good thing).

The EU is a Boomer project and those millies tied to it are also tied to the Boomer establishment. Those who aren't have nothing to lose from its destruction and most certainly the 4T in a Mega-Unraveling is less about creation and more about destruction.

The rest of your post smells strongly of you seeing what you want to see and not seeing what is actually happening. I suggest getting out of the house more and turning off the idiot box.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#72
(Yesterday, 04:28 PM)michael_k Wrote:
(05-21-2019, 11:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(05-08-2019, 12:05 PM)michael_k Wrote:
(05-04-2019, 04:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The 1997-2003 cohorts are NOW acting civically about guns, about climate change, and about inequality, college debt and low wages. Unlike you, they know these issues are civic and are on the ballot for a vote. They are just coming into their own as a civic generation, and we haven't seen anything yet from millennials, born from 1982 to 2003.

I think it's unfair to imply that earlier Millennials (1982-1996) are 'uncivic'. I mean there was the whole LGBT rights movement that sprang up as that group came of age, which had a huge impact on how differing sexualities and identities are perceived. The whole same-sex marriage movement would likely not have gotten off the ground if it wasn't for the earlier-wave Millennials, despite the Boomers and Gen Xers who later agreed that a law change was necessary to enfranchise a minority.

One of the reasons also why we see the later Millennials/Gen Zers making effective protest is due to the ideological groundwork laid out by the first wave. There are politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (b. 1989) and Sarah Hanson-Young (b. 1981) who are markedly more progressive than many others elected in their field, but both these women have had to endure being the devil of the conservative media and all the smears associated with it. Being a 1991 born Australian myself, if you are caught supporting Hanson-Young too loudly within a moderate-conservative audience of older people you are likely to be called an idiot and told to 'f*** off'. As a cohort of downtrodden, frustrated and quietly-progressive adults are formed, you have a lot higher chance of vocal youth movements not being shrugged off before they can gain traction - they'll have backing from some of the older crowd as well.

I think one of the frustrations that arose with the older wave of Millennials is that we were expected to be 'heroes' by the older generation, but within a framework we did not consent to, as if everyone was trying to write what we'd stand for, for us. When we stepped too far outside of those margins, there was hostility and closed communication and we couldn't reach anyone no matter how much we cared or thought about things, which led to many 'giving up'. It makes me wonder if maybe the older wave of Millennials should be considered a Nomad-Hero hybrid generation, in that we have Civic ideals, but we tend to get be treated as Reactives when we attempt to express them.

I think I answered before that I don't think earlier millennials are uncivic. They have been typical of civics in many ways. They are late, unfortunately, in learning to participate in the civic process. But they are learning. The cynicism of recent years made it harder for our new civics to go against the grain, and not look upon our civic process as an inherent failure.

Protests are always resisted. If millennials continue to protest and take civic action to make a difference in society, despite the opposition of those who naturally don't want to listen and don't want to change, then that is heroic and typical of a civic generation. Lots of protests in the 1930s and 1850s were resisted by those upholding the status quo. It doesn't mean there's any hybrid developing. Everything is on schedule, and if the current time seems to stalemated and not changing like a 4T should seem, that's because it's a repeat of the 1850s, which really was part of the civil war 4T. It's a tougher job to change the society from within, than to face an external enemy from without.

We haven't seen anything yet from millennials. I hope it's clear that what I mean is that I predict a lot more activism from them in the next decade or more.

You did answer before, but this post was more concise. I think what people are forgetting also is that we are still too early in the game to be determining the legacy of Millennials. There are still a lot of frustrations and ideas on what the latest Civic Generation should be, but this is perhaps normal in a 4th Turning where knowledge of Generational Turnings exists and everyone is divided on what they think is the right course of action, resulting in a situation where the Civics may be considered heroes or failures in a myriad of ways before accurate conclusions can be reached.

As for the Millennial/Gen Z split, I feel like time will tell how significant the differences are between the two cohorts. I sort of see a correlation there with the early 'Interbellum' G.I.s being a bit different than the later ones, early G.I.s knew a world before the devastation of World War I and had reached adulthood before the Wall Street crash occurred, while the later wave grew up in a post-WWI world and saw the Great Depression begin during their teen/childhood years. A similar difference exists between Gen Y & Z, Generation Y grew up in a pre-9/11 world and endured the Financial Crisis in early adulthood, Generation Z entered childhood post-9/11 and saw the Financial Crisis hit before coming of age. Perhaps both cohorts will end up having a Civic role, but it will perhaps be expressed in different ways.

I agree. But as I remarked when posters here started to refer to late Xers as "Generation Y", I prefer a letter be assigned to a whole generation. Gen Z should refer to the new adaptives, who have been born since 2003-04.

Quote:Just to put into perspective the timing of events, as I understand, a Saeculum lasts approximately 84 years, with each Generation lasting ~21 years, with specific events and happenings making each Generation and Saeculum potentially longer or shorter to adhere to the timeline. Using this as a guide, we can look at the defining point of the G.I. Generation, which was of course, World War II (1939-1945, middle year being 1942), and then pull the timeline forward 21 years at a time, where we have the 'defining' year for the Silents (1963 Kennedy assassination), likewise for the Boomers (1984 Reagan landslide re-election), Gen Xers (Hurricane Katrina and post 9/11 era, centered on 2005) and for the Millennials, this pinnacle year would be 2026, which has not yet occurred. True, some Generations come of age early, like the Lost Generation, whose defining year was not really 1921, but instead 1914, which would place 2019 (!) as the peak Millennial year if we do the 21-year math. This being said though, the Roaring Twenties was also a defining era for the Lost, and for those whose defining eras came earlier, like the 60s/70s for Boomers and 80s/90s for Gen X, in my mind these eras didn't cement the politics of those Generations as much as it defined the youth culture and the idealism - and idealism is not the be-all and end-all of politics. If we look at the Millennial equivalent of these formative cultural eras, we get the 2000s and the 2010s, which fits right in with Millennials still being politically idealistic at this point in time.

Studies show that although defining events may come later, it is in youth, from 14 to 25 years or so, in which political attitudes are set, but of course this varies for different birth cohorts during a generation. Historians consider 1968 as the year that shaped the boomers, but that refers mostly to "the sixties generation," which consists of late silents through core boomers, and not to the late or "Jones" Boomers. I sure would disagree with saying that the Reagan landslide defined the Boomer generation. They were the least likely generation to vote for him, and Reaganomics is not a boomer ideology. These events you mentioned came at the ends of turnings, and 2026 is also scheduled to be near the end of this 4T. I don't know how that fact fits into your analysis of defining years.

Quote:If we consider Millennials and Boomers to have a roughly 42-year gap, and Millennials as G.I. to have an 84-year gap, then the Obama Presidency (2008, 2012 elections) of the Millennials' timeline matches Coolidge's re-election (1924) and Hoover's election (1928) in the G.I. timeline, and I don't think the G.I. were that significant until F.D. Roosevelt's win in 1932, so if we are to give the Millennials credit for Obama's victory and not Gen X, then perhaps Millennials were politically active from an earlier stage. If we compare the Boomers' timeline to Millennials, we get 1966 lining up with 2008, which looks alright for the Boomers in a progressive sense as that was when the Cultural Awakening was picking up, but then we look at the politics and see Nixon being elected in 1968 AND 1972, which makes Boomers look politically conservative/apathetic in contrast with Millennials, at that time.

Wind the timelines forward to the Trump election and following mid-terms (2016, 2018) in the Millennial timeline and match them up to G.I.s and Boomers, and you get G.I.s witnessing the FDR election (1932) instead of Trump's and Boomers seeing the election of Carter (1976) 42 years before the 2018 mid-terms and their record turnout occur. One could argue here that the FDR/Trump difference is due to the G.I.s being part of an 'Apollonian' Saeculum, where society is more unified against outsiders, and the Millennials being in a 'Dionysian' Saeculum, where the society is at war with itself. There are interesting differences between the Civics here, with many Millennials opposing Trump and what I've heard about FDR being a hero to the G.I.s, but there are similarities too, with both Trump and FDR being touted as examples of strong leaders.

As for the comparison between Millennials and Boomers, maybe you could stretch and give some of the eldest Boomers credit for L.B. Johnson's election (1964) and perhaps compare that to Obama's in 2008 (a 44-year difference), but it seems that it took until Carter for many Boomers to take part in the election of a progressive candidate, and then you had Ronald Reagan.

All in all, I don't think Millennials are particularly behind or an outlier when you look at their predecessors.

I agree. It was the McGovern campaign where Boomers made their greatest mark, and he lost big. So Millennials did better to help get Obama elected. Overall the McGovern campaign and the anti-war movement powered by boomers eventually helped end the war and bring environmental and consumer reforms in the 70s. I expect millennials could power many reform movements in the next decade or two, and in the 2040s some liberal elders could match the achievements of Kennedy and Johnson in the 1960s in the early 2T.

It was not voting in midterms in which millennials seriously dropped the ball, as Obama pointed out. Only 1 in 5 young people voted in 2014. It showed some lack of education about how our civic affairs work. That greatly restricted what Obama could accomplish. They did better in 2018; I hope they are learning. The Parkland kids like David Hogg really stressed how important it was for their fellow millennials to vote in 2018.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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