Democrats organize to fight back

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-13-2017, 10:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump deceived people, some of whom are in economic trouble in depressed states, to think he was anti-establishment. That was a lie. He is the essence and substance of the Establishment. He is carrying out their plans to increase the power of the Establishment in every facet of our lives. Libertarian economics is their constant mantra. They are sitting around Trump in the cabinet, praising their leader like he's the savior. The Republican side, although it has its divisions, seems to have an easier time uniting behind someone who may not be their first choice, because they are authoritarians and better able to accept whichever candidate representing authority and the elite is chosen, and who can carry out their destructive plans.

A lot of that is right.  I have a feeling the old guard Republican establishment would rather have one of their own, somebody who has played by the usual Reagan - Bush - Bush rules and style.  I know I'd rather not be attempting desperately to stay atop their current unbroken wild horse.  Washington DC is going to be a wild and crazy place as long as that particular 'outsider' is occupying ground zero.  Trump doesn't have the insider contacts, savvy political skills or cooperative personality to give the Republican establishment a smooth comfortable four to eight years.  He is basically playing the unraveling memes for all they are worth, though, repeating trickle down borrow and spend excrement while pretending to care for the little guy.  He has just shifted the style to dupe the gullible.

On the other hand, Trump beat the old guard Republican candidates fairly cleanly.  He is more in touch with the middle of the country than the establishment GOP.  A lot of people are truly sick of the establishment GOP.  I kind of doubt any of the old crowd could have taken Hillary.

I'm mostly hanging back and hoping he doesn't do irreparable damage, other than destroying the planet of course.  Perhaps you do need a Buchanan or a Hoover to get a Lincoln or an FDR?  Did we really need a Trump?  While I haven't seen an escalating spiral of violence, the divide in the country's beliefs is certainly profound.

[pbrower2a]

I see Donald Trump as a recrudescence of the Degeneracy. (I created that word to describe the most depraved time of the 3T -- bad business as a norm, getting the blessing of corrupt or lackadaisical upper leadership. Just think of the legislation to undo Dodd-Frank... probably so that banks can do shady business.

Late in a 3T, economic bubbles are the norm. So if it isn't residential real estate this time, what could it be? Privatization of the public sector to monopolistic profiteers? I wonder what can go wrong with that? It's bad enough that many people will be priced into staying home in dreadful places due to high tolls to get from any place to another or to get anything from one place to another. Such tolls will add for all practical purposes a huge private tax on anything that we buy. If you question our competitiveness now, wait until using a rural blacktop road has a dollar-a-mile toll for a car, proceeds going to Trump cronies.

Bad business has a way of crashing and burning, the crashing and burning starting an economic meltdown that destabilizes the political order. The Civil War, the rise of Satan Incarnate in Germany, and the potential for a new Great Depression and who knows what subsequent chaos in 2008 all followed one of the worst financial panics of several decades.

Donald Trump is a disaster, a reckless and ruthless, corrupt leader devoid of political acumen. Can we expect good results?

[Bob Butler 54]

I'd suggest looking at brick and mortar retail as at least one bursting bubble, which is one place where lots of jobs have been generated.

[Odin]

(06-13-2017, 11:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-13-2017, 10:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump deceived people, some of whom are in economic trouble in depressed states, to think he was anti-establishment. That was a lie. He is the essence and substance of the Establishment. He is carrying out their plans to increase the power of the Establishment in every facet of our lives. Libertarian economics is their constant mantra. They are sitting around Trump in the cabinet, praising their leader like he's the savior. The Republican side, although it has its divisions, seems to have an easier time uniting behind someone who may not be their first choice, because they are authoritarians and better able to accept whichever candidate representing authority and the elite is chosen, and who can carry out their destructive plans.

A lot of that is right.  I have a feeling the old guard Republican establishment would rather have one of their own, somebody who has played by the usual Reagan - Bush - Bush rules and style.  I know I'd rather not be attempting desperately to stay atop their current unbroken wild horse.  Washington DC is going to be a wild and crazy place as long as that particular 'outsider' is occupying ground zero.  Trump doesn't have the insider contacts, savvy political skills or cooperative personality to give the Republican establishment a smooth comfortable four to eight years.  He is basically playing the unraveling memes for all they are worth, though, repeating trickle down borrow and spend excrement while pretending to care for the little guy.  He has just shifted the style to dupe the gullible.

On the other hand, Trump beat the old guard Republican candidates fairly cleanly.  He is more in touch with the middle of the country than the establishment GOP.  A lot of people are truly sick of the establishment GOP.  I kind of doubt any of the old crowd could have taken Hillary.

I'm mostly hanging back and hoping he doesn't do irreparable damage, other than destroying the planet of course.  Perhaps you do need a Buchanan or a Hoover to get a Lincoln or an FDR?  Did we really need a Trump?  While I haven't seen an escalating spiral of violence, the divide in the country's beliefs is certainly profound.

It didn't help that there were so many candidates that the Establishment could not get one person to get behind, it was a shit-show split between Marco The Robot, JEB! (please clap), and Kasich. Cruz got the Religious Right. Trump's original base in the primaries seems to have been the type of people that 35 years ago would have been called "Reagan Democrats", working class white people who vote Republican because of social issues, racism, and xenophobia, as well as Neo-Confederates.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-14-2017, 06:07 AM)Odin Wrote: Trump's original base in the primaries seems to have been the type of people that 35 years ago would have been called "Reagan Democrats", working class white people who vote Republican because of social issues, racism, and xenophobia, as well as Neo-Confederates.

To the degree that the above is more correct than a liberal straw-man, we can hope some people at least will be willing to grow up.  You can't forget that there are some who sincerely and intensely believe in small government, low taxes and large armies.  Still, your liberal description of the unraveling memes are deplorable reasons to destroy the country and the planet.  At least Trump is taking the Reagan unraveling pattern to and beyond any point of responsibility and feasibility.  Once he gets finished with the unraveling memes, will they have any credibility left?

You have to hope not.  If he demolishes the credibility of the Reagan unraveling memes, there will be room for a true regeneracy and/or grey champion.

[Eric the Green]

(06-14-2017, 06:07 AM)Odin Wrote:

(06-13-2017, 11:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-13-2017, 10:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump deceived people, some of whom are in economic trouble in depressed states, to think he was anti-establishment. That was a lie. He is the essence and substance of the Establishment. He is carrying out their plans to increase the power of the Establishment in every facet of our lives. Libertarian economics is their constant mantra. They are sitting around Trump in the cabinet, praising their leader like he's the savior. The Republican side, although it has its divisions, seems to have an easier time uniting behind someone who may not be their first choice, because they are authoritarians and better able to accept whichever candidate representing authority and the elite is chosen, and who can carry out their destructive plans.

A lot of that is right.  I have a feeling the old guard Republican establishment would rather have one of their own, somebody who has played by the usual Reagan - Bush - Bush rules and style.  I know I'd rather not be attempting desperately to stay atop their current unbroken wild horse.  Washington DC is going to be a wild and crazy place as long as that particular 'outsider' is occupying ground zero.  Trump doesn't have the insider contacts, savvy political skills or cooperative personality to give the Republican establishment a smooth comfortable four to eight years.  He is basically playing the unraveling memes for all they are worth, though, repeating trickle down borrow and spend excrement while pretending to care for the little guy.  He has just shifted the style to dupe the gullible.

On the other hand, Trump beat the old guard Republican candidates fairly cleanly.  He is more in touch with the middle of the country than the establishment GOP.  A lot of people are truly sick of the establishment GOP.  I kind of doubt any of the old crowd could have taken Hillary.

I'm mostly hanging back and hoping he doesn't do irreparable damage, other than destroying the planet of course.  Perhaps you do need a Buchanan or a Hoover to get a Lincoln or an FDR?  Did we really need a Trump?  While I haven't seen an escalating spiral of violence, the divide in the country's beliefs is certainly profound.

It didn't help that there were so many candidates that the Establishment could not get one person to get behind, it was a shit-show split between Marco The Robot, JEB! (please clap), and Kasich. Cruz got the Religious Right. Trump's original base in the primaries seems to have been the type of people that 35 years ago would have been called "Reagan Democrats", working class white people who vote Republican because of social issues, racism, and xenophobia, as well as Neo-Confederates.

So many candidates, and all such poor candidates; and perhaps only JEB (please clap) was a genuine corporate establishment Republican. Trump won partly because of the paucity of good, electable candidates on both sides.

[David Horn]

(06-14-2017, 08:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2017, 06:07 AM)Odin Wrote: Trump's original base in the primaries seems to have been the type of people that 35 years ago would have been called "Reagan Democrats", working class white people who vote Republican because of social issues, racism, and xenophobia, as well as Neo-Confederates.

To the degree that the above is more correct than a liberal straw-man, we can hope some people at least will be willing to grow up.  You can't forget that there are some who sincerely and intensely believe in small government, low taxes and large armies.  Still, your liberal description of the unraveling memes are deplorable reasons to destroy the country and the planet.  At least Trump is taking the Reagan unraveling pattern to and beyond any point of responsibility and feasibility.  Once he gets finished with the unraveling memes, will they have any credibility left?

You have to hope not.  If he demolishes the credibility of the Reagan unraveling memes, there will be room for a true regeneracy and/or grey champion.

I think the problem lies in the transition from the Industrial Age, that average people understand well, to the Post-industrial/Information Age that is best understood by the young and some of their more sophisticated elders.  The neo-Luddites want their day ... again.  Is this a vastly different scenario from the 19th century tranistion that lead to a disaterous 4T internacine struggle?  The degree of anger is similar, and, much like then, the players are moving to their respective corners waiting for the fight to begin.

If it comes to that, how will it play out?  It's not a matter of Region A fighting Region B this time.  I fear it would be more chaos than revolt, and harder to quell.  Take a peak at all the chaos in the middle east that emerged in much the same way.  Let's hope cooler heads prevail, though a viable solution that works for all is a mystery to me.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-14-2017, 02:22 PM)David Horn Wrote: I think the problem lies in the transition from the Industrial Age, that average people understand well, to the Post-industrial/Information Age that is best understood by the young and some of their more sophisticated elders.  The neo-Luddites want their day ... again.  Is this a vastly different scenario from the 19th century tranistion that lead to a disaterous 4T internacine struggle?  The degree of anger is similar, and, much like then, the players are moving to their respective corners waiting for the fight to begin.

If it comes to that, how will it play out?  It's not a matter of Region A fighting Region B this time.  I fear it would be more chaos than revolt, and harder to quell.  Take a peak at all the chaos in the middle east that emerged in much the same way.  Let's hope cooler heads prevail, though a viable solution that works for all is a mystery to me.

I don't disagree with the gist of what your saying, but there are other plausible wrinkles.  One might add post-scarcity to the Post-Industrial and Information Age labels for what comes after the Industrial Age.  I know I've not a firm enough idea of what's coming to guess which might become the pertinent label.

And while the developed world might be shifting out of the industrial - scarcity pattern, the Middle East and elsewhere is still trying to break free of the Agricultural pattern.  They are still working with strongmen, tyrants, royalty with a major role for religion.  They still lack some of the memes that have to be firmly believed for democracy and human rights to work well.  Thus, we have two entirely different age of civilization level conflicts running at the same time.  Could the Middle East and elsewhere skip the industrial age entirely, and jump directly to a post scarcity information age pattern?  If the economics, market and raw materials are starting to work some sort of post industrial pattern, is the industrial pattern a viable option?

Yes, this peace loving think it through and make the right choice hippy sympathizer can hope things don't blow up big time.  On the other hand, the establishment elites of the industrial age seem determined to cling to the old pattern.  I often think something is going to give.  The old patterns just can't hold.

[pbrower2a]

(06-14-2017, 05:08 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2017, 02:22 PM)David Horn Wrote: I think the problem lies in the transition from the Industrial Age, that average people understand well, to the Post-industrial/Information Age that is best understood by the young and some of their more sophisticated elders.  The neo-Luddites want their day ... again.  Is this a vastly different scenario from the 19th century tranistion that lead to a disaterous 4T internacine struggle?  The degree of anger is similar, and, much like then, the players are moving to their respective corners waiting for the fight to begin.

If it comes to that, how will it play out?  It's not a matter of Region A fighting Region B this time.  I fear it would be more chaos than revolt, and harder to quell.  Take a peak at all the chaos in the middle east that emerged in much the same way.  Let's hope cooler heads prevail, though a viable solution that works for all is a mystery to me.

I don't disagree with the gist of what your saying, but there are other plausible wrinkles.  One might add post-scarcity to the Post-Industrial and Information Age labels for what comes after the Industrial Age.  I know I've not a firm enough idea of what's coming to guess which might become the pertinent label.

We may face new forms of exploitation that ensure that most of us get nothing for the new economic paradigm. One way that I can imagine is that new elites find ways to collect easy money as a tax for living in the world that those elites believe that they own. We can be in thrall to loan-sharks, mobsters, profiteering landlords, Ayatollah-like religious leaders, and corrupt politicians capable of ensuring that they get extreme levels of profit and take away all the bounty. that might otherwise make life easy and rewarding. Dispute the role of such leaders, and you may be killed quickly or consigned to the mindless, grinding poverty of Orwell's 'Oceania'. You might get to live on welfare, but you will find a mindless world of fecal entertainment and of propaganda as news.

Quote:And while the developed world might be shifting out of the industrial - scarcity pattern, the Middle East and elsewhere is still trying to break free of the Agricultural pattern.  They are still working with strongmen, tyrants, royalty with a major role for religion.  They still lack some of the memes that have to be firmly believed for democracy and human rights to work well.

Just imagine how American life can be if the economic and political elites can impose Agricultural Age inequity and repression upon the rest of us? I can imagine new forms of slavery or at least serfdom   simply as a threat to people who have even a small level of privilege, like formal education or a skilled trade. Question the right of loan sharks to sell any durable goods, and you will be consigned to a level of economic life characteristic of a sharecropper in the beginning of  the 20th century.  If you are a teacher or a preacher and you fail to laud the exploiters as benefactors then you may find out how hard life can be when you can no longer preach or teach. The worst exploiters, like the planters of the middle of the 19th century, insist that they are the benefactors of those that they exploit -- and to make sure that they are the best hope for the people that they cheat out of life, they make such people helpless and dependent. We may be shocked now with such arrogance, but we are not in their world. The attitude that exploiters are the benefactors is especially true with Idealist elites at their worst, like Donald Trump in our time or Theodore Bilbo in the last Crisis era. Nothing says that ideals can't be malign.

On the other side -- the more that people are familiar with the economic interests of Donald Trump and his class, the more hostile they are to his agenda. Approval ratings for Donald Trump are in the 20s in New York and New Jersey. California, where landlords are particularly rapacious and have an economic order that showers tax benefits upon them, shows similar levels of approval for President Trump.

Quote:Thus, we have two entirely different age of civilization level conflicts running at the same time.  Could the Middle East and elsewhere skip the industrial age entirely, and jump directly to a post scarcity information age pattern?  If the economics, market and raw materials are starting to work some sort of post industrial pattern, is the industrial pattern a viable option?

The prologue of A Tale of Two Cities seems apropos today, does it not? We stand on the brink of both the worst and the best: madness and reason, poverty and plenty, terror and hope, shame and glory, equity and injustice, cruelty and charity, tyranny and freedom, good dreams and monstrous nightmares... that is how things look in a 4T. Had Dickens been writing a sequel about the 1930s the cities might have been new York and Berlin.

Quote:Yes, this peace loving think it through and make the right choice hippy sympathizer can hope things don't blow up big time.  On the other hand, the establishment elites of the industrial age seem determined to cling to the old pattern.  I often think something is going to give.  The old patterns just can't hold.

We are firefighters in a building about to undergo backdraft, and we know it. We cannot leave the burning building as we entered  it, for the floor underneath us has lost its trustworthiness and burning beams can collapse above us at any minute. We must chip a hole in the structure to escape.

We cannot undo the collection of oily rags that the recent dwellers placed near the pilot light of a hot-water heater. We cannot grab the lighted cigarette from someone who fell asleep smoking or smoked in the presence of an oxygen tank.

[Odin]

(06-14-2017, 08:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2017, 06:07 AM)Odin Wrote: Trump's original base in the primaries seems to have been the type of people that 35 years ago would have been called "Reagan Democrats", working class white people who vote Republican because of social issues, racism, and xenophobia, as well as Neo-Confederates.

To the degree that the above is more correct than a liberal straw-man, we can hope some people at least will be willing to grow up.  You can't forget that there are some who sincerely and intensely believe in small government, low taxes and large armies.  Still, your liberal description of the unraveling memes are deplorable reasons to destroy the country and the planet.  At least Trump is taking the Reagan unraveling pattern to and beyond any point of responsibility and feasibility.  Once he gets finished with the unraveling memes, will they have any credibility left?

You have to hope not.  If he demolishes the credibility of the Reagan unraveling memes, there will be room for a true regeneracy and/or grey champion.

A lot of these people are actually OK with government spending and welfare, as long as it is only for white Christians. All too often I see a sort of left-wing MAGA among my fellow progressives based on New Deal nostalgia, forgetting that a lot of the support of the New Deal "national liberal" consensus only lasted as long as the benefits primarily went to white men (this is a big reason so many PoC were turned off by many of Sanders' vocal supporters). When minorities and women started demanding their fair share a lot of those white men turned against the "national liberal" welfare state.

[Odin]

(06-14-2017, 02:22 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-14-2017, 08:39 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2017, 06:07 AM)Odin Wrote: Trump's original base in the primaries seems to have been the type of people that 35 years ago would have been called "Reagan Democrats", working class white people who vote Republican because of social issues, racism, and xenophobia, as well as Neo-Confederates.

To the degree that the above is more correct than a liberal straw-man, we can hope some people at least will be willing to grow up.  You can't forget that there are some who sincerely and intensely believe in small government, low taxes and large armies.  Still, your liberal description of the unraveling memes are deplorable reasons to destroy the country and the planet.  At least Trump is taking the Reagan unraveling pattern to and beyond any point of responsibility and feasibility.  Once he gets finished with the unraveling memes, will they have any credibility left?

You have to hope not.  If he demolishes the credibility of the Reagan unraveling memes, there will be room for a true regeneracy and/or grey champion.

I think the problem lies in the transition from the Industrial Age, that average people understand well, to the Post-industrial/Information Age that is best understood by the young and some of their more sophisticated elders.  The neo-Luddites want their day ... again.  Is this a vastly different scenario from the 19th century tranistion that lead to a disaterous 4T internacine struggle?  The degree of anger is similar, and, much like then, the players are moving to their respective corners waiting for the fight to begin.

If it comes to that, how will it play out?  It's not a matter of Region A fighting Region B this time.  I fear it would be more chaos than revolt, and harder to quell.  Take a peak at all the chaos in the middle east that emerged in much the same way.  Let's hope cooler heads prevail, though a viable solution that works for all is a mystery to me.

Relevant quote I've run into:

William Tecumseh Sherman Wrote:"You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail."

Just replace North/South with Urban/Rural.

[Bob Butler 54]

General Sherman was quite able to get his point of view across.  Here is a longer and more famous expression of the views expressed above.

Those who execute violence will think through extensive justifications for said violence...  and burn cities.

Yet, I also believe the bit about the cracker.

General Sherman Wrote:

HEADQUARTERS MILITARY DIVISION of the MISSISSIPPI in the FIELD

Atlanta, Georgia,
James M. Calhoun, Mayor,
E.E. Rawson and S.C. Wells, representing City Council of Atlanta.

Gentleman: I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of distress that will be occasioned, and yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the cause, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace, not only at Atlanta, but in all America. To secure this, we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war, we must defeat the rebel armies which are arrayed against the laws and Constitution that all must respect and obey. To defeat those armies, we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses, provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now, I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter; and, therefore, deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes in inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufacturers, commerce, or agriculture here, for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why not go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer, instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past month? Of course, I do not apprehend any such things at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what we propose to do, but I assert that our military plans make it necessary for the inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible.

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the national Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation.

You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.

We don't want your Negroes, or your horses, or your lands, or any thing you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and if it involved the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it.

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. I repeat then that, bu the original compact of government, the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began the war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or title of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands and thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect an early success.

But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.

Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them, and build for them, in more quiet places, proper habitations to shield them against the weather until the mad passions of men cool down, and allow the Union and peace once more to settle over your old homes in Atlanta. Yours in haste,

W.T. Sherman, Major-General commanding

[Odin]

(06-16-2017, 03:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: General Sherman was quite able to get his point of view across.  Here is a longer and more famous expression of the views expressed above.

Those who execute violence will think through extensive justifications for said violence...  and burn cities.

Yet, I also believe the bit about the cracker.

General Sherman Wrote:

HEADQUARTERS MILITARY DIVISION of the MISSISSIPPI in the FIELD

Atlanta, Georgia,
James M. Calhoun, Mayor,
E.E. Rawson and S.C. Wells, representing City Council of Atlanta.

Gentleman: I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of distress that will be occasioned, and yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the cause, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace, not only at Atlanta, but in all America. To secure this, we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war, we must defeat the rebel armies which are arrayed against the laws and Constitution that all must respect and obey. To defeat those armies, we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses, provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now, I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter; and, therefore, deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes in inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufacturers, commerce, or agriculture here, for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why not go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer, instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past month? Of course, I do not apprehend any such things at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what we propose to do, but I assert that our military plans make it necessary for the inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible.

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the national Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation.

You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.

We don't want your Negroes, or your horses, or your lands, or any thing you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and if it involved the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it.

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. I repeat then that, bu the original compact of government, the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began the war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or title of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands and thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect an early success.

But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.

Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them, and build for them, in more quiet places, proper habitations to shield them against the weather until the mad passions of men cool down, and allow the Union and peace once more to settle over your old homes in Atlanta. Yours in haste,

W.T. Sherman, Major-General commanding

There are no compromises in a 4T, things are fought until the other side gives its unconditional surrender.

[pbrower2a]

We are in a tough transition in which there was plenty of need for basic manufactured goods to one in which the need for such things is sated. That implies a tough transition for the proletariat who could fare well when such things as televisions and microwave ovens were scarce and costly. It is telling that Goodwill no longer accepts old TV sets as donations. What was once precious is now ordinary and banal.

The forty-hour workweek may have to go. Computers and software may greatly reduce the need for office jobs. People could dictate their words into writing, as writing has been synthesized into speech for about thirty years. We will need to better figure how to use leisure time. On the other hand, think of how much more attention and indulgence children can get in an age of shorter hours of work. (We will also have to improve patterns of child-raising, which implies that a thoroughly-awful method, the authoritarian brutality in which bossy parents end up with children who must rebel just to keep some individuality, must largely vanish).

The better world will be more educated and more efficient. It might put less emphasis on status symbols and more on experiences.

[Bob Butler 54]

This will be forgotten much sooner than General Sherman, but CNN is reporting a few democrats are pushing for a better deal.

It may be just a style preference, but I think it's about time they started echoing the 'New Deal' language.

[Ragnarök_62]

(07-24-2017, 09:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This will be forgotten much sooner than General Sherman, but CNN is reporting a few democrats are pushing for a better deal.

It may be just a style preference, but I think it's about time they started echoing the 'New Deal' language.

Dunno about that. 

1. The information referenced wrt DNC starts with "Republicans are doing X and we oppose what X does".

Why note call the "repeal and replace bills" something like "Cut health care spending as offsets to future tax cuts bills."
Next, say "We Democrats are going to introduce a Medicare for all bill" .

2. Here's some change I can believe in.  We're gonna cut the DOD budget and use those savings as a down  payment on Medicare for all. Next, steal Trump's border adjustment tax , call it a VAT, and use that $ to offset increased health care spending. Hopefully, that will get all of the shills to STFU about out of control spending.

3. Better jobs:  OK, let's take Amazon's fulfillment  centers as an example.  Call centers also do the shit outlined below.

4. Abolish monitored work. That is to say, no more doing what Amazon does. They can no longer monitor workers by how many orders the fill with those bar code things.  Call centers can no longer monitor the number of calls resolved in a certain time period.  People are not hens. Hens are culled [fired] when their egg production falls due to age.

5. Allow OSHA to fine the hell out of employers, again Amazon from making folks work in dangerous work conditions like no air conditioning, shoddy stairs, and force them to protect workers from belts and the like.

6. Protect the borders and then after that's fixed work on path to citizenship.  All workers' protections/wages depend on the lowest level of workers. No more exploiting folks by threats.

I just just in general think some specific goals and how to meet them is in order here.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-24-2017, 04:12 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(07-24-2017, 09:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This will be forgotten much sooner than General Sherman, but CNN is reporting a few democrats are pushing for a better deal.

It may be just a style preference, but I think it's about time they started echoing the 'New Deal' language.

Dunno about that. 

1. The information referenced wrt DNC starts with "Republicans are doing X and we oppose what X does".

Why note call the "repeal and replace bills" something like "Cut health care spending as offsets to future tax cuts bills."
Next, say "We Democrats are going to introduce a Medicare for all bill" .

2. Here's some change I can believe in.  We're gonna cut the DOD budget and use those savings as a down  payment on Medicare for all. Next, steal Trump's border adjustment tax , call it a VAT, and use that $ to offset increased health care spending. Hopefully, that will get all of the shills to STFU about out of control spending.

3. Better jobs:  OK, let's take Amazon's fulfillment  centers as an example.  Call centers also do the shit outlined below.

4. Abolish monitored work. That is to say, no more doing what Amazon does. They can no longer monitor workers by how many orders the fill with those bar code things.  Call centers can no longer monitor the number of calls resolved in a certain time period.  People are not hens. Hens are culled [fired] when their egg production falls due to age.

5. Allow OSHA to fine the hell out of employers, again Amazon from making folks work in dangerous work conditions like no air conditioning, shoddy stairs, and force them to protect workers from belts and the like.

6. Protect the borders and then after that's fixed work on path to citizenship.  All workers' protections/wages depend on the lowest level of workers. No more exploiting folks by threats.

I just just in general think some specific goals and how to meet them is in order here.

Perhaps we make congressmen swipe a bar code when they pass something? 

A movement towards OSHA to pass more fines and regulations would get grumbles from the middle of the country.  Best stay clearly specific on empowering the government to hamper businesses in general.  Rightly or wrongly, at the moment we've got as many knee jerk anti government bureaucracy reds as we have knee jerk anti business blues.

In general, I agree with the notion of the Democrats being for specifics rather than just blanket in opposition to the opposition.  We saw enough of stubborn partisan refusal during Obama's years.  The three 'better deal' Democrats seem starting in that direction, but there will certainly be discussions over how the wish lists ought to be ordered.

I've also heard of a new culture or ethic of jobs without work.  Hillbilly Eulogy in particular has stories of rust belt folk so busy avoiding work while at work that their productivity is negligible.  There is nothing in the Bill of Rights which guarantees right of access to opium derivatives.  You can't ban supervisors from knowing how much work is getting done.

One of my first jobs was in a plastic manufacturing factory. Open door to molding machine, remove part, close door to molding machine (which started the next part going), package the last part. As I did this, a little counter on the side of the molding machine incremented each time a part was made. To a great extent, that was what I was paid by. I never thought anything wrong with it. In this day of computers, there are so many ways to bump counters.

[David Horn]

(07-24-2017, 09:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This will be forgotten much sooner than General Sherman, but CNN is reporting a few democrats are pushing for a better deal.

It may be just a style preference, but I think it's about time they started echoing the 'New Deal' language.

I see an emerging narrative built around Roosevelt bringing a new Deal, Truman making that a Fair Deal, the GOP offering a Raw Deal.  Enter, the Better Deal.  I'm sure the wordsmiths are busy even as we type away.

[Eric the Green]

(07-26-2017, 11:18 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Trump threw a big old bone to the SIWs (Social Injustice Wariors). He's trying to get the military to ban trannies.

Now, I must admit, the T in LGBTQ has never been a big issue for me. I was never super keen on seeing the strong push for very aggressive accommodation. However, compared with my DW I suppose I am more on the "liberal" side of the issue (she views it as a form of mental illness).

In any case, in the ongoing theme of "we are the anti-Obama" this move is no surprise.

Acronymns again. What is "DW?"

[Eric the Green]

(07-25-2017, 04:14 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-24-2017, 09:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This will be forgotten much sooner than General Sherman, but CNN is reporting a few democrats are pushing for a better deal.

It may be just a style preference, but I think it's about time they started echoing the 'New Deal' language.

I see an emerging narrative built around Roosevelt bringing a new Deal, Truman making that a Fair Deal, the GOP offering a Raw Deal.  Enter, the Better Deal.  I'm sure the wordsmiths are busy even as we type away.

I suppose an alternative to a raw deal could be a Fresh Deal. Or, a Catered Deal?